Great Schafer Interview (Topher Scott confirmed as 2nd Assistant)

ugarte · July 02, 2011, 09:14:10 AM

Quote from: minIt was also interesting that Coach Schafer offered some very high praise for Athletic Director Andy Noel.

Not that surprising. While eLF is a nexus of Andy Noel hate, the athletic department has done very well under him.

David Harding · July 02, 2011, 12:31:12 PM

Quote from: KeithKSince I obviously haven't been paying attention can anyone point me to a story or press release about the new financial aid policies?

Cornell Chronicle
Financial aid initiative web page
Appealing your financial aid decision web page
CAAAN bulletin
How is this possible?

Trotsky · July 05, 2011, 08:04:02 AM

Quote from: kaelistusNo link but essentially Cornell will now match any financial aid offers from other Ivys

kaelistus · July 05, 2011, 10:02:48 AM

Quote from: CASIf we want to compete for the best [students and athletes], I believe it is necessary. We are just trying to compete on an equal financial playing field.

I disagree on many points.

First: It seems that there would only be a handful of student non-athletes that apply into HYP that turn them down to go to Cornell in the first place. I'm an engineer for example, so HYP would do nothing for me. I guess nowadays I would have to apply to HYP so I could can get my merit scholarship. Bizarre.

Second: Yes I'm sure it affects athletics. And I don't care. If I supported merit scholarships I'd be cheering for Duke, Kentucky, and Michigan. But I don't. I'd rather be weaker in athletics.

Third: The we meet or beat any prices phenomenon has never worked in retail. So why bother to do it here. (Actually this is kind of the same as point 1. Oh well)

Four: You seem to believe that this actually puts Cornell on equal financial playing field. It doesn't. It picks a handful of people and puts them on equal playing field, raising the cost for everyone else. Money is finite.

CAS · July 05, 2011, 11:28:04 AM

I do believe this enhancement in financial aid, which is designed to match [not beat] other Ivies, is essentially alumni funded. Again, it is incremental to the existing aid budget. It is not hurting ANY other aid recipients. It is already helping athletics [read the comments of Coach Schafer and Coach Austin], which I and many others do care about. It also helps Cornell enroll a superior academic class. It gives us the best chance to win, for both students and athletes.

Trotsky · July 05, 2011, 11:35:11 AM

Quote from: kaelistusIt picks a handful of people and puts them on equal playing field, raising the cost for everyone else. Money is finite.

If that's the test for whether to enact this policy, if its purpose is to attract sought-after athletes who then help Cornell win more games which then spurs greater revenue and alumni giving, the policy might pay for itself or even turn a profit for the university. Money may be finite, but it isn't zero sum.

kaelistus · July 05, 2011, 03:05:22 PM

Quote from: CASI do believe this enhancement in financial aid, which is designed to match [not beat] other Ivies, is essentially alumni funded. Again, it is incremental to the existing aid budget. It is not hurting ANY other aid recipients.

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This statement is only true if, and only if, the alumni would give money to support this policy and not a general financial aid policy. I find that unlikely. (The opposite is more likely)

As for being zero sum. That's true. A for profit athletic department can work. It's the basis for Duke, Michigan, et al. I personally like the traditional Ivy policy of solely need-based admissions that up to now had been the modus operandi. In fact, a counter argument to that is that people like me* are less willing to donate to Cornell if they implement merit-based financial aid. I've always liked the fact that, at least openly, everyone who got into Cornell got the same financial aid and athletes don't get more of a free ride.

* Full disclosure: I have been known to give money to the school but I'm not rich and I'm sure my donation is too small to be missed.

Trotsky · July 05, 2011, 04:41:08 PM

Quote from: kaelistusI personally like the traditional Ivy policy of solely need-based admissions that up to now had been the modus operandi.

So do I, hence "if."

Cornell exists to train poets and dairy farmers. Everything else it does is either a luxury, a fad, or a way to pay the bills.

Jim Hyla · July 05, 2011, 05:50:02 PM

Quote from: kaelistus
Quote from: CASI do believe this enhancement in financial aid, which is designed to match [not beat] other Ivies, is essentially alumni funded. Again, it is incremental to the existing aid budget. It is not hurting ANY other aid recipients.
\\

This statement is only true if, and only if, the alumni would give money to support this policy and not a general financial aid policy. I find that unlikely. (The opposite is more likely)

As for being zero sum. That's true. A for profit athletic department can work. It's the basis for Duke, Michigan, et al. I personally like the traditional Ivy policy of solely need-based admissions that up to now had been the modus operandi. In fact, a counter argument to that is that people like me* are less willing to donate to Cornell if they implement merit-based financial aid. I've always liked the fact that, at least openly, everyone who got into Cornell got the same financial aid and athletes don't get more of a free ride.

* Full disclosure: I have been known to give money to the school but I'm not rich and I'm sure my donation is too small to be missed.

From the previously mentioned link "How it this possible?", provided by David Harding:

QuoteTo fund the initiative, Cornell is reallocating funds, increasing its endowment payout, and seeking new scholarship gifts for domestic and international students. An additional $125 million for scholarships has been added to the campaign goal.

As you can see this is an additional amount of money for this program. They have been actively pursuing Alumni support for this. They use the argument that this is needed to compete, and they are getting extra money. I haven't looked for a link, but I believe that Athletics is being asked to do fundraising to pay for the extra money that the U provides.

Finally, what makes you think athletes are being treated differently than other students. All students are eligible. Some athletes may be more inclined to use it; they may be more inclined to turn HYP down than other students, who don't have another reason to prefer CU as athletes might. If so, that's not a bad thing.

Really when you look back to what the Ivys did before the government stepped in, it's not much different. Then all the schools got together and offered the same aid package to all commonly accepted students. They could have actually reduced the package then, since they knew no other Ivy would give more. Now the students get the best package that's offered. Whichever school offers the most is matched.

This is a much better program than before. The students get the best, the U is able to raise more money for scholarships, and we get students to come here (in many different fields) that wouldn't have before. I don't think any students lose by this.

CAS · July 05, 2011, 05:56:32 PM

The matching policy applies to ALL students. Athletes "don't get more of a free ride." The match applies as well to those also admitted to MIT, which is not known for its athletic success. Cornell exists to train poets and dairy farmers. And to develop a successful hockey program that all current students, staff, townies, and alums can support. I wouldn't minimize the benefits of a successsful athletic program to the overall health of the university.

kaelistus · July 06, 2011, 09:33:22 AM

Quote from: CASThe matching policy applies to ALL students.

Bullshit. It applies to all students who get into HYP. It does not apply to all students. That's like saying Kentucky has a scholarship policy that applies to ALL students. All you have to do is dunk under pressure.

There's two points here that follow the other and I can't see how anyone can argue against them:

1- This is a merit based scholarship.
2- Merit based scholarships run counter to Cornell's (and the Ivy league) long held traditions.

CAS · July 06, 2011, 10:00:36 AM

Think it is you who are mistaken kaelistus. There already exist some merit based scholarships at Cornell [Cornell Commitment scholarships] and other Ivies. I also have no problem with Cornell alumni funding superior financial aid for a relatively small number of students who are most valuable to the university. We're trying to attract the best kids in the country, some who are also considering Harvard and MIT.

kaelistus · July 06, 2011, 10:32:49 AM

A quick google search turned up no hits for merit scholarships at Ivy schools. Some links to the first page of results.

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20110521204939AAH4RYW
http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/harvard-university/336034-merit-like-scholarships-ivy-league.html

Maybe I was wrong and Cornell isn't the school I thought it was... When I was there it was drilled to me that Cornell does not give out any merit based scholarships. Once you got in you are equal. Maybe things changed. In which case, I guess that saves me a couple hundred bucks a year.

And now that I look at the list of universities that Cornell matches - the fact that Duke is there, which is notorious for giving insane financial aid packages to athletes only, makes me even more sad.

kaelistus · July 06, 2011, 10:40:35 AM

Update.. I hadn't seen this but it looks like others agree with me:

http://cornellreviewonline.com/?p=403

A little weird because I'm as crazy liberal as they come.

jtwcornell91 · July 06, 2011, 11:19:17 AM

Quote from: Jim HylaFrom the previously mentioned link "How it this possible?", provided by David Harding:

QuoteTo fund the initiative, Cornell is reallocating funds, increasing its endowment payout [emphasis JTW's], and seeking new scholarship gifts for domestic and international students. An additional $125 million for scholarships has been added to the campaign goal.

As you can see this is an additional amount of money for this program. They have been actively pursuing Alumni support for this. They use the argument that this is needed to compete, and they are getting extra money. I haven't looked for a link, but I believe that Athletics is being asked to do fundraising to pay for the extra money that the U provides.

From that quote, it seems both things are true: "reallocating funds" means that money that might have funded some other part of the University's activities (among which is presumably general financial aid) will be used for this initiative. Likewise, dipping into the endowment means less return will be available to fund everything in the future. The fundraising explanation indicates that the whole cost of the initiative won't be borne by the rest of the budget. But reallocating funds and spending endowments tells me the net cost is not zero.

BTW, my personal experience echos kaelistus's impression that Cornell didn't use to give merit scholarships. After my freshman financial aid offer had come in the mail, I received a small merit scholarship from the State of New York, and my Cornell grant was reduced by exactly that amount.