Atlantic City-ECAC hockey attendance fiasco

[billhoward]

I would argue bad weather would have a significantly greater impact in AC.  First, there's no outdoor attraction in the other places comparable to their boardwalk.  Second, the indoor activities in AC looked remarkably scummy (gambling, strip clubs, pawn shops -- pick any two).

Friday, upper 70s and gorgeous beach weather in Atlantic City. This morning, a half-inch of slushy snow is on the boardwalk.

[Ronald '09]

Bridgeport - 9,000(?)

8500 for hockey.

Thanks.  My source was wikipedia, and for all the other rinks it had a specific ice hockey capacity, but for that one just "sports."

[Josh '99]

On a personal level, I thought the location was great. Strolling the boardwalk before and after the games beats anything that Albany has to offer.

I loved the rink itself -- it's gorgeous and interesting in a way none of the cookie-cutter Pepsi Center type places will ever be.  It was also nice to not have a division between upper and lower.  All that was great.

Strolling the boardwalk was a lot of fun -- the people watching (or New Jerseyite watching anyway) was highly entertaining.  But we also had the best weather possible.  If we had had a weekend of rain, being stuck with nothing to do but watch the zombies in the casinos would be like having the game at Rikers.

Well, the potential effect of bad weather is a red herring; that's an issue at nearly any potential location, save perhaps Boston. Albany, Lake Placid, Hartford, Worcester, Meadowlands, Bridgeport, etc...which of these are you thoroughly enjoying in 40 degrees and rain?

I would argue bad weather would have a significantly greater impact in AC.  First, there's no outdoor attraction in the other places comparable to their boardwalk.  Second, the indoor activities in AC looked remarkably scummy (gambling, strip clubs, pawn shops -- pick any two).

And what are all the great indoor activities to which visitors in Hartford, Albany, Worcester, Bridgeport, and Lake Placid will flock?  To say that AC simply offers strip clubs and pawn shops just shows a flippant unwillingness to even try and give the place a chance.

I think Jordan is correct on this point.  If you're in any of those cities and the weather is crappy, your options are basically "get to the rink really early" or "go see a movie" or "sit in a bar or a restaurant with friends and while away the afternoon" (and that last one is something we typically did in Albany even when the weather was nice, realistically speaking), all of which you could do in Atlantic City.

It's also worth noting that Lake Placid, which many of us (though of course not all) enjoyed as a site for the tournament, was especially susceptible to weather issues.

[Josh '99]

In speculating about possible future sites (assuming AC attendance doesn't pick-up the next couple of years), I'm surprised that no one seems to mention the IZOD Center at the Meadowlands.  It certainly has more availability than many other sites given that the Devils and the Nets have departed; and, while it has little charm, it is more accessible to the majority of the ECAC fan base than is AC.

Aside from my issues with that building itself (there's just nothing around it), even a good ECAC tournament crowd would look bad in a 19,000 seat building.

[Trotsky]

On a personal level, I thought the location was great. Strolling the boardwalk before and after the games beats anything that Albany has to offer.

I loved the rink itself -- it's gorgeous and interesting in a way none of the cookie-cutter Pepsi Center type places will ever be.  It was also nice to not have a division between upper and lower.  All that was great.

Strolling the boardwalk was a lot of fun -- the people watching (or New Jerseyite watching anyway) was highly entertaining.  But we also had the best weather possible.  If we had had a weekend of rain, being stuck with nothing to do but watch the zombies in the casinos would be like having the game at Rikers.

Well, the potential effect of bad weather is a red herring; that's an issue at nearly any potential location, save perhaps Boston. Albany, Lake Placid, Hartford, Worcester, Meadowlands, Bridgeport, etc...which of these are you thoroughly enjoying in 40 degrees and rain?

I would argue bad weather would have a significantly greater impact in AC.  First, there's no outdoor attraction in the other places comparable to their boardwalk.  Second, the indoor activities in AC looked remarkably scummy (gambling, strip clubs, pawn shops -- pick any two).

And what are all the great indoor activities to which visitors in Hartford, Albany, Worcester, Bridgeport, and Lake Placid will flock?  To say that AC simply offers strip clubs and pawn shops just shows a flippant unwillingness to even try and give the place a chance.

I'm one of the people here saying to give AC a chance.  The idea of having the tourney be an "event" is one the conference has played with for a while and I think it's worthwhile.  The rink is beautiful and on sunny days the boardwalk's fun.  If it's a hole, people can and will still find a way to have fun.  But that doesn't mean it's not a hole.

[Killer]

I don't know.  The more I look at it, the more I see pentagrams.  I've always suspected that Bill might be possessed.  Now I think he may be trying to turn the rest of us.  But do keep posting all those great photos, Bill.

[billhoward]

I don't know.  The more I look at it, the more I see pentagrams.  I've always suspected that Bill might be possessed.  Now I think he may be trying to turn the rest of us.  But do keep posting all those great photos, Bill.

There are 12 ECAC schools and most of them are in groups of 2 (Clarkson/St Lawrence, Cornell/Colgate, etc.). If I connected all the pairs to the other pairs, you'd approximate a Star of David.

Speaking of Killer's original suspicion, one of all-time worst puns:
Q: What happens when you don't pay the exorcist?
A: You get repossessed.

[Scersk '97]

Really too bad that the Glens Falls Civic Center isn't a little bigger.  Greater Glens Falls (including Lake George) would seem to afford many of the advantages of Lake Placid (nice location, "taking over the town," perhaps flexible bar admissions, not a hole) in a more accessible location.  It's also pretty much equidistant (driving-time-wise) from the ECAC's sometime "holy trinity"—Cornell, Clarkson, and Harvard.

Since the Divorce
=================
#F4  Team
-----------------
18   Cornell
17   Harvard
16   Clarkson
11   SLU
11   RPI
 8   Colgate
 6   Dartmouth
 6   Princeton
 5   Yale
 4   Brown
[4   Vermont]
 1   Union
 1   Quinnipiac

To me, those top six teams speak to the wisdom of siting the tournament further west than one might otherwise think, i.e., I think Providence is a nice idea but a bit far.  Oh, and count me among those who thought Albany wasn't that bad and wish that we would go back there.  Atlantic City?  Liked the rink (except for the ice and crappy concessions), disliked the town for tournament purposes (except for the smell of salt air).  (I like gambling away my meager funds as much as the next guy, but I don't really think gambling mixes well with the ECACs.)  But attendance tells the tale in the end.

If only we could disassemble Boardwalk Hall, implode the Times Union Center, and then reassemble Boardwalk Hall in Albany.

[billhoward]

If only we could disassemble Boardwalk Hall, implode the Times Union Center, and then reassemble Boardwalk Hall in Albany.

Drift: For those who shopped New England public universities, the thought applies similarly in taking the fabulous UConn Storrs compus in the middle of nowhere and dropping it atop all the 1970s poured concrete of the UMass Amherst location. *That* would be a public college with no shortage of applicants.

Maybe Atlantic City needs an 18,000 not 12,000 seat hall so it could host big time hoops. Plus they could use the existing ice surface to warm the building.

[Josh '99]

Really too bad that the Glens Falls Civic Center isn't a little bigger.  Greater Glens Falls (including Lake George) would seem to afford many of the advantages of Lake Placid (nice location, "taking over the town," perhaps flexible bar admissions, not a hole) in a more accessible location.  It's also pretty much equidistant (driving-time-wise) from the ECAC's sometime "holy trinity"—Cornell, Clarkson, and Harvard.

Since the Divorce
=================
#F4  Team
-----------------
18   Cornell
17   Harvard
16   Clarkson
11   SLU
11   RPI
 8   Colgate
 6   Dartmouth
 6   Princeton
 5   Yale
 4   Brown
[4   Vermont]
 1   Union
 1   Quinnipiac

To me, those top six teams speak to the wisdom of siting the tournament further west than one might otherwise think, i.e., I think Providence is a nice idea but a bit far.

To me, they demonstrate that moving the tournament back to Boston makes no sense (other than in a hypothetical universe where the ECAC and Hockey East got remarried).  Union's deficiencies notwithstanding, it's a league that's concentrated in upstate New York, not in New England, and even more so if you're talking about fan base size than if you're talking about historical performance.

[Jim Hyla]

Really too bad that the Glens Falls Civic Center isn't a little bigger.  Greater Glens Falls (including Lake George) would seem to afford many of the advantages of Lake Placid (nice location, "taking over the town," perhaps flexible bar admissions, not a hole) in a more accessible location.  It's also pretty much equidistant (driving-time-wise) from the ECAC's sometime "holy trinity"—Cornell, Clarkson, and Harvard.

Since the Divorce
=================
#F4  Team
-----------------
18   Cornell
17   Harvard
16   Clarkson
11   SLU
11   RPI
 8   Colgate
 6   Dartmouth
 6   Princeton
 5   Yale
 4   Brown
[4   Vermont]
 1   Union
 1   Quinnipiac

To me, those top six teams speak to the wisdom of siting the tournament further west than one might otherwise think, i.e., I think Providence is a nice idea but a bit far.

To me, they demonstrate that moving the tournament back to Boston makes no sense (other than in a hypothetical universe where the ECAC and Hockey East got remarried).  Union's deficiencies notwithstanding, it's a league that's concentrated in upstate New York, not in New England, and even more so if you're talking about fan base size than if you're talking about historical performance.

Back in the old days:-D, there never was any problem getting fans from NY ECAC schools to go to Boston. Clarkson, SLU fans regularly traveled there. The distance is not a problem if there is something worth driving for. Boston is a hockey town and the buzz, newspaper coverage, etc. would just be much greater. Look at the local attendance for the Harvard game, those fans would go to the playoffs. If you are bringing your spouse and family there is so much more for them to do.

But most important is just the excitement that you feel when you are going to a place that appreciates what is happening. Driving the Thruway and Mass Pike and having cars with not only Cornell, but Clarkson and other schools, honk at you as you pass them. Getting to the Garden and buying a paper to see what they are writing about your team. LP had some of that, but no where near what Boston would do, even if it's a Hockey East town. You know "Logistics", well Boston has it for hockey.

[Trotsky]

I really can't stress enough how much of an after thought the ECAC is in Boston.  It's not even AAA -- think short season single A.  That is a bad place to go if the conference ever wants to reestablish itself as a peer of the "big three."

[redice]

I'm with Jim on this discussion.

Going to Boston always seemed like a reward for a great season...There was excitement in getting ready and making the long trip there....Yes, it was long..But, the destination made it worth the trip..We made it to almost every Boston ECAC tourney that included Cornell.

Albany?  Well, it was nice because it was closer....We went every year that it was in Albany...We always enjoyed the trip..But, there was seldom any air of excitement over the prospects of a trip to Albany.   But, it was an easy trip and that made it okay with me.

LP?  Never went there for the ECAC tourney...It held absolutely no appeal to me or my family...I resented the policy of the lodging establishments that would not allow cancellations within one week of the event...I guess they were not interested in fans who only wished to attend after their school had qualified...Good for their bottom line; bad for customer-service.

AC?   Didn't go this year...Probably will go in some future years.  But, only if Cornell is there.   I don't consider this to be an acceptable or logical site for the tourney.   I'm hoping that they move to a better location after the 3-yr contract expires.

What's with the ECACHL people having such a knack for picking lousy sites.   If that's the best they can do, they ought start moving the tourney around each year...That way, they'll consistently please some of the people some of the time....Reality?  I expect they're not too concerned with pleasing fans.   Their history seems to be one of answering to someone else....No logic to it...

[adamw]

I'll say this ... it's not 1970 anymore.  It's not even 1990 anymore.  A tournament in Boston would work as poorly as anywhere else, I'm completely convinced.

First ... ECAC programs are just not on a par -- in general -- with Hockey East programs anymore.  In 1990 -- the last year an ECAC team made the finals -- they were.  So no one in Boston is going to be that interested going to see "lower level" hockey.  They can just save their money and buy the Hockey East and Regional tickets.  That's just the way it is.

Second ... fan bases in general for all ECAC schools are much smaller than other schools. The undergrad sizes are much smaller, and therefore the amount of grads are smaller.  This is just the nature of the beast, and thus, there is only so much they can do.

Third ... I don't believe people from Potsdam, for example, would be passionate enough to drive to Boston anymore ... or much of anywhere else for that matter. Things have changed all over.  And it's not just because the team isn't great currently.  Even Cornell's fan base, though still relatively great, is not as passionate anymore.  Reasons for this could be debated forever.

Fourth ... the only way to get Yale fans to show up in great numbers, apparently, is to have the tournament at Ingalls Rink.  Great atmosphere there, but they don't travel anywhere.  Let's hope they at least travel the 20 miles to Bridgeport.

Fifth ... I'm not defending AC - but there really is no good solution for the ECAC.  Anyone who believes there is one great answer out there, is dreaming.  This is the dilemma which the ECAC faces.  This is why they tried AC.  I agree with Greg on its charms, but I agree with others on its problems.  I'd rather have it somewhere else -- a place that is simply a nice, modern hockey arena (like Bridgeport) -- not an old dump of any kind.

Sixth ... No one loves Lake Placid more than me.  If they played in front of crickets, it would still be worth it -- except for one thing: the Olympic-size ice sheet.  It doesn't help in prep for the NCAA Tournament, and coaches don't want it.  If there was some way to rectify that, at least temporarily, it would be great.

[billhoward]

Great points, Jim, thanks. Sports attendance skews toward big events: Super Bowl and weekly NFL games; NCAA final weekend for basketball, hockey, wrestling. The Kentucky Derby thrives while the rest of horse racing fades. The ECACs and the NCAA hockey regionals (equal to college hoops' sweet sixteen) aren't drawing well. The 10-year attendance trend for the ECAC championship week is steadily downward (see chart) with the two up blips being Cornell's return after a year's absence and last year in Albany when a local team (Union) finally made it.

Yes, going to Boston for the ECACs was a special time because it was the hub of college hockey and because it was the college hub of America. Who couldn't want to go there? I remember for a couple years we printed a "CU in Boston" bumper sticker you could clip out of the Cornell Daily Sun and paste in your back window and you'd see on the NYS Thruway and Mass Pike with those stickers and honk and wave frantically. Now there's probably an app for that. But you can't go back. Boston is now the Hockey East town and Albany for better or more likely worse is the hub of ECAC hockey since six of the 12 teams are in NY State and for three more, Yale, Quinnipiac, and Darmouth, it's only 15-20 miles closer to Boston than Albany. The ECAC crawling back to Boston is tantamount to saying we're a second-class league.

Speaking of all this, I know it was spring break, but did Cornell student attendance in Atlantic City seem light compared to alumni?