Cu - 0 Yale - 6 final

[ajh258]

Schafer has had many years to figure these problems out and we still do not have a sustained NCAA tourney presence.

You say that as if that's some sort of standard for being a decent team. Consider tourney appearances since 2002 (the last 10 tournaments):

...

44 teams made it to the tournament. Six did so more frequently than Cornell. Not every team can be Michigan, North Dakota, or UNH.  Of course those teams have exactly as many titles as Cornell over the last decade.

And let's see how many Forzen 4 appearances teams had in the same 10-year span:

BC: 6
UND: 5
Maine: 4
Michigan: 4
Minnesota: 3
UNH: 2
Michigan State: 2
Denver: 2
Miami: 2
Wisconsin: 2
BU: 1
Cornell: 1
Notre Dame: 1
Bemidji: 1
Vermont: 1
CC: 1
Duluth: 1
RIT: 1

Sustained means we don't get knocked out first or second round. Making the tourney is one thing. Winning games is another.

[css228]

Schafer has had many years to figure these problems out and we still do not have a sustained NCAA tourney presence.

You say that as if that's some sort of standard for being a decent team. Consider tourney appearances since 2002 (the last 10 tournaments):

...

44 teams made it to the tournament. Six did so more frequently than Cornell. Not every team can be Michigan, North Dakota, or UNH.  Of course those teams have exactly as many titles as Cornell over the last decade.

And let's see how many Forzen 4 appearances teams had in the same 10-year span:

BC: 6
UND: 5
Maine: 4
Michigan: 4
Minnesota: 3
UNH: 2
Michigan State: 2
Denver: 2
Miami: 2
Wisconsin: 2
BU: 1
Cornell: 1
Notre Dame: 1
Bemidji: 1
Vermont: 1
CC: 1
Duluth: 1
RIT: 1

Sustained means we don't get knocked out first or second round. Making the tourney is one thing. Winning games is another.

I don't know how much more you can ask for though, because in '06 we lost to UW in 3 OT 1-0 so thats just one bounce from going our way and in '05 lost to Minnesota 2-1 in OT, lost to UNH by 1 in '02. a few bounces go our way and you can legitimately say we'd have 3 Frozen Fours in the last decade (especially with the 2 OT games). So if we get four more situations like that in the next decade (The Frozen Four year and 3 near misses) I'd love our odds at a title.

[Aaron M. Griffin]

And let's see how many Forzen 4 appearances teams had in the same 10-year span:

BC: 6
UND: 5
Maine: 4
Michigan: 4
Minnesota: 3
UNH: 2
Michigan State: 2
Denver: 2
Miami: 2
Wisconsin: 2
BU: 1
Cornell: 1
Notre Dame: 1
Bemidji: 1
Vermont: 1
CC: 1
Duluth: 1
RIT: 1

Sustained means we don't get knocked out first or second round. Making the tourney is one thing. Winning games is another.

It seems that pride in Cornell's hockey programs and well wishes for their success obfuscate some realities about Cornell University and its competitor universities.  Cornell is a premier university in all fields.  I think that most on here will realize that.  It is likely why many of us chose to attend there.  It has conflicting demands to maintain this stature.  It must modernize facilities, fund research, and augment the educational experiences available on all of its global campuses.  These considerations are absent from the calculi of many of the universities whose hockey programs have more success in collegiate hockey recently.  Membership in the Ivy League and the heightened academic standards expected of our student-athletes makes it difficult to find players who both have the athletic skills and academic prowess so that they will not appear as an undeserving occupant of a space at the University because of their skills on the ice.  The higher the standards, the smaller the pool of eligible players.  That is why I am not that impressed with Union's self-imposed non-scholarship system.  I mean no offense to Union, it is a good school, but its standards do not rise to anywhere near the level of the Ivies in the ECAC.  It inherits a larger pool prospectives then.  But that is a digression.  Following this approach, I took the list of schools with their respective Frozen Four appearances and appended their current U.S. New and World Reports National University rankings.  This adds an element showing the calibre of education offered by each respective university.  The results follow.

BC: FF: 6, USNWR: 31
UND: FF: 5, USNWR: 159
Maine: FF: 4, USNWR: 159
Michigan: FF: 4, USNWR: 29
Minnesota: FF: 3, USNWR: 64
UNH: FF: 2, USNWR: 104
Michigan State: FF: 2, USNWR: 79
Denver: FF: 2, USNWR: 86
Miami: FF: 2, USNWR: 79
Wisconsin: FF: 2, USNWR: 45
BU: FF: 1, USNWR: 56
Cornell: FF: 1, USNWR: 15
Notre Dame: FF: 1, USNWR: 19
Bemidji: FF: 1, USNWR: Unranked Nationally
Vermont: FF: 1, USNWR: 94

The average USNWR National University Ranking of teams that played in the Frozen Four is 73.  That is ignoring Bemidiji State's unranked status.  Cornell's current rank is 15.  It is the highest ranked university on the list.  Only two teams representing universities ranked in the top 20 made the Frozen Four.  They both only did it once (Cornell and Notre Dame).  Only three teams made the Frozen Four whose associated universities are ranked in the top 30.  The third is Michigan.  Michigan invests far more resources into its athletics programs than does Cornell.  That explains the discrepancy in four appearance for Michigan and one for Cornell.  Anyone who thinks that prioritization and academic standards of each university has nothing to do with this is deluding themselves.

Cornell has chosen to compete both in collegiate hockey and in the global academic arena.  It has excelled in both.  It won a Conference championship last year and the year prior it made the NCAA Regional Finals. I am sure if hockey and appearances in the Frozen Four are all that mattered to those on here, not academics or any of the other externalities that make Cornell great, then many could have easily gone to one of the other universities on the list provided.  For me, it is an analysis of the totality of the circumstances: Cornell is a great university that has remained competitive, by any pragmatic assessment, in an era when universities have chosen either to gain publicity through their athletic programs while embracing relative mediocrity in academics, or to focus primarily on academics.  Cornell has been able to navigate both extremes and remain relevant in both arenas.  

This is all why I agree with Schafer's remarks from Saturday, "I'm proud of our program...I'm proud to be a Cornellian."

[Towerroad]

Thank you Chris for compiling this list. I was trying to recall how many national championships Michigan has won in the past decade or so. I thought it was a big fat zero. Glad to know I still have some memory cells that still function ;-).  

Almost every year, Cornell is in a position to win the ECACs and/or have a PWR ranking that puts them in position to be in the NC$$ tournament.  Given our academic and financial aid constraints, I happen to think that is pretty darn good. UND and Michigan presumably have their pick of blue chip recruits and I wonder if their fans are bitching as much as we are about their lack of NC$$ titles over the past decade.

Given that Michigan stole most of their chants from us I'm sure they stole our discontent with no titles from us too!

Harvard basketball fans did a good job of that too
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ul6YhsgjY9I&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJmewyPLkkM&NR=1

I bet they got an A for originality.

[Towerroad]

I have enjoyed this thread immensely and learned a few things from people that know the game much better that I do (which will not prevent me from offering seemingly informed opinions in the future). Perhaps we should take a step back and ask what success is for Cornell Hockey. I think we focus too much on that elusive NCAA title. The nature of sports dictates that we constantly strive for the summit but no one could say that in recent years the Cornell Lax, Womens Hockey, or Wrestling have not been fabulously successful and a source of immense pride even though the ultimate title eluded them. So, lets take our eyes off the summit for a moment and enjoy the view, here are a few of my thoughts informed or otherwise about other measures of success:

1. Beating the Harvard Mens Varsity Figure Skating Society.

2. Filling Lynah East with a sea of Red and humiliating both of the aforesaid Figure Skating Society fans when it comes to Alma Mater singing and general cheering.

3. Filling Lynah and maintaining the traditions and dreaded passion of the Faithful from the Anthems to the Salute.

4. Having the best band in the Ivy's

5. Winning the Ivy League.

6. Making it to the second round of the NCAA Tournament

7. Graduating Hockey Players who got an education

8. Selling out womens games.

9. Consistently beating Yale

If we do these things on a regular basis and never win a title who is to say that the program is not a tremendous success.

[Jordan 04]

Thank you Chris for compiling this list. I was trying to recall how many national championships Michigan has won in the past decade or so. I thought it was a big fat zero. Glad to know I still have some memory cells that still function ;-).  

Almost every year, Cornell is in a position to win the ECACs and/or have a PWR ranking that puts them in position to be in the NC$$ tournament.  Given our academic and financial aid constraints, I happen to think that is pretty darn good. UND and Michigan presumably have their pick of blue chip recruits and I wonder if their fans are bitching as much as we are about their lack of NC$$ titles over the past decade.

Given that Michigan stole most of their chants from us I'm sure they stole our discontent with no titles from us too!

Harvard basketball fans did a good job of that too
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ul6YhsgjY9I&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJmewyPLkkM&NR=1

I particularly enjoy the cheer where they exhibit indifference towards the other teams by reading newspapers, but oh wait!....they actually seem to be paying particularly close attention, in order to yell "Sucks!" at precisely the correct moment!

They must be terribly emotionally conflicted.

[CAS]

I believe that with our newly competitive financial aid policy, we will attract the players we need to win.  Andy Noel's letter in the spring Spirit Magazine is very encouraging for all our athletic programs [and for all of Cornell's students].  Winning more recruiting battles should lead to winning more titles. We have an oustanding class coming in.  In Schafer I trust!

[Jim Hyla]

I believe that with our newly competitive financial aid policy, we will attract the players we need to win.  Andy Noel's letter in the spring Spirit Magazine is very encouraging for all our athletic programs [and for all of Cornell's students].  Winning more recruiting battles should lead to winning more titles. We have an oustanding class coming in.  In Schafer I trust!

Thank you, nuf said.

[Towerroad]

Thank you Chris for compiling this list. I was trying to recall how many national championships Michigan has won in the past decade or so. I thought it was a big fat zero. Glad to know I still have some memory cells that still function ;-).  

Almost every year, Cornell is in a position to win the ECACs and/or have a PWR ranking that puts them in position to be in the NC$$ tournament.  Given our academic and financial aid constraints, I happen to think that is pretty darn good. UND and Michigan presumably have their pick of blue chip recruits and I wonder if their fans are bitching as much as we are about their lack of NC$$ titles over the past decade.

Given that Michigan stole most of their chants from us I'm sure they stole our discontent with no titles from us too![/quote

Harvard basketball fans did a good job of that too
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ul6YhsgjY9I&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJmewyPLkkM&NR=1

I particularly enjoy the cheer where they exhibit indifference towards the other teams by reading newspapers, but oh wait!....they actually seem to be paying particularly close attention, in order to yell "Sucks!" at precisely the correct moment!

They must be terribly emotionally conflicted.

The salons of Cambridge must be all atwitter at the juxtaposition of ennui and passion. Now if someone could only deconstruct this thing that is done with baskets for them.

[Robb]

I believe that with our newly competitive financial aid policy, we will attract the players we need to win.  Andy Noel's letter in the spring Spirit Magazine is very encouraging for all our athletic programs [and for all of Cornell's students].  Winning more recruiting battles should lead to winning more titles. We have an oustanding class coming in.  In Schafer I trust!

Yeah - real shame that we had to go through such a dark period these last few years while learning these lessons.  I mean, we've only had three straight ECAC championship appearances, an ECAC title, two NCAA tourney invites, and an NCAA upset victory.  Ask my year 2000 self if that seems so bad.  Or 1993.  ::wow::

[Trotsky]

Sustained means we don't get knocked out first or second round. Making the tourney is one thing. Winning games is another.

Wins in the NCAA tournament over Schafer's tenure:

7 Cornell
4 The Rest of the ECAC

[Chris '03]

Sustained means we don't get knocked out first or second round. Making the tourney is one thing. Winning games is another.

Wins in the NCAA tournament over Schafer's tenure:

7 Cornell
4 The Rest of the ECAC

5 All of the AHA
2 All of the CHA
::uhoh::

[jkahn]

There's another disadvantage we face.
It should also be noted that our slow start this season was, in part, due to the fact that we opened with three losses against teams who had already been playing for a couple of weeks (NH, RIT, SLU). It's a disadvantage that the Ivies face in the all important OOC games that have a big effect on PWR.  It also hurts the non-Ivy ECAC PWR's since they play the Ivies a lot.
Had we won those 3 games, we're #11 in PWR and looking forward to this weekend.  And if we tie UNH and win the other two we'd still be in the tournament.  Interestingly, in the latter scenario, Dartmouth would be in also, and CC and RPI would be out (ain't PWR wonderful).  
Thanks to JTW's website for enabling those calculations.

[scoop85]

Schafer has had many years to figure these problems out and we still do not have a sustained NCAA tourney presence.

You say that as if that's some sort of standard for being a decent team. Consider tourney appearances since 2002 (the last 10 tournaments):

...

44 teams made it to the tournament. Six did so more frequently than Cornell. Not every team can be Michigan, North Dakota, or UNH.  Of course those teams have exactly as many titles as Cornell over the last decade.

And let's see how many Forzen 4 appearances teams had in the same 10-year span:

BC: 6
UND: 5
Maine: 4
Michigan: 4
Minnesota: 3
UNH: 2
Michigan State: 2
Denver: 2
Miami: 2
Wisconsin: 2
BU: 1
Cornell: 1
Notre Dame: 1
Bemidji: 1
Vermont: 1
CC: 1
Duluth: 1
RIT: 1


Sustained means we don't get knocked out first or second round. Making the tourney is one thing. Winning games is another.

I'm sorry.  Complaining that "only" a single Frozen Four appearance somehow represents failure? As someone who graduated in the mid-80's when we didn't make the ECAC final four let alone the NCAA's, I have little to complain about regarding our success during the Schafer era.  For those who would rather see someone else at the helm, I say be careful what you wish for.

[Aaron M. Griffin]

1. Beating the Harvard Mens Varsity Figure Skating Society.

2. Filling Lynah East with a sea of Red and humiliating both of the aforesaid Figure Skating Society fans when it comes to Alma Mater singing and general cheering.

3. Filling Lynah and maintaining the traditions and dreaded passion of the Faithful from the Anthems to the Salute.

4. Having the best band in the Ivy's

5. Winning the Ivy League.

6. Making it to the second round of the NCAA Tournament

7. Graduating Hockey Players who got an education

8. Selling out womens games.

If we do these things on a regular basis and never win a title who is to say that the program is not a tremendous success.

I agree with that list entirely.  I have bolded those that resonate most with me.  Number 7 is basically what my entire protracted earlier response was about.  Cornell produces skilled, intelligent hockey players that will not only be an asset to their teams but the society around them.  Not every university or program that produces more Frozen Four teams can claim that.  Cornellians and Cornell fans should be proud of that tradition and legacy.

I might add a Number 9 or an addendum to Number 5:  Return to beating Yale on a consistent basis.  :-)