Harvard 4, Cornell 3, Final

[ebilmes]

Just want to clarify that the bench minor was the only Harvard PP that Cornell was able to successfully kill off. So, as stupid as the fans are who threw fish and other objects, that penalty was not the turning point in the game.

[ithacat]

What if it had been newspaper? Should we stop throwing that on the ice as well?

Yes. Throw newspaper up in the air or at each other, but not on the ice. The only things that should ever be allowed to be thrown on the ice should be hats and teddy bears. That being said, as long as these things only happened before the game I don't really care -- assuming the rink is adequately staffed for the clean up.

I think the fish tradition that is supported is that which happens before the game. That's it. There is no other tradition. If a small % of students want to ruin it, then kill the tradition entirely. What makes Lynah special is the hockey combined with the band, the chants, the cheers, the taunts, etc... not the crap thrown on the ice.

Of course, this is the opinion of one STH only.

[redice]

.....a barrage of fish demoralizes them.....

No offense, Andy...But, anyone who could believe that has a misplaced sense of their own importance in the grand scheme of a college hockey game...Some of those Harvard players had smiles on their faces...That belies any indication of being demoralized...

.....usually the "extended attempt at awesomeness" is just lame and hurts us.....

Now, there's something upon which we can agree:  LAME!!!

[redice]

Just want to clarify that the bench minor was the only Harvard PP that Cornell was able to successfully kill off. So, as stupid as the fans are who threw fish and other objects, that penalty was not the turning point in the game.

You are overlooking the fact that the bench minor was indeed a momentum changing moment in the game..

[Jim Hyla]

Just want to clarify that the bench minor was the only Harvard PP that Cornell was able to successfully kill off. So, as stupid as the fans are who threw fish and other objects, that penalty was not the turning point in the game.

Come on, you're not trying to say that the only turning point can be a goal, are you? Stopping a 2 man advantage or 5 min major can be a turning point. Many, many other non-goal situations can be turning points.

I think the point was we just tied it up, and had some good offensive pressure during that time. The goal would have been to keep up that pressure and score the go ahead goal. The SH situation took that away, scoring wasn't necessary, but would have been terrible. Was that the single turning point of the game? Of course not. One of the reasons hockey is so much fun is that there are many turning points, and you can always hope your team gets the next one. But that penalty was a turning point, even though it wasn't the only reason they lost.

[ithacat]

Just want to clarify that the bench minor was the only Harvard PP that Cornell was able to successfully kill off. So, as stupid as the fans are who threw fish and other objects, that penalty was not the turning point in the game.

I would have liked to have seen what Cornell might have done riding the emotion of tying the game and being able to pressure Harvard instead of having to have burn more energy defending a man down.

[Tom Tone]

The only things that should ever be allowed to be thrown on the ice should be hats and teddy bears.

Why the exceptionalism for hats and teddy bears? Hats come during game play and can be just as disruptive.

Are you implying that it is traditional so then it's okay?

Then is it also okay for an entire generation of future Cornell fans to not have the opportunity to hurl fish at the Crimson because we lost one game by one goal because of an incident that takes place once every 9 years?

[ugarte]

Just want to clarify that the bench minor was the only Harvard PP that Cornell was able to successfully kill off. So, as stupid as the fans are who threw fish and other objects, that penalty was not the turning point in the game.

Come on, you're not trying to say that the only turning point can be a goal, are you? Stopping a 2 man advantage or 5 min major can be a turning point. Many, many other non-goal situations can be turning points.

So it's all about momentum? I sure hope not, because momentum is a bullshit concept.

The goal scoring in the game looks like this: Cornell->Harvard->Harvard->Cornell->Harvard->Cornell->Harvard. If you are claiming that the boldface goal was evidence of pro-Cornell momentum that was irrevocably lost by a bench minor that the team killed off (the successful PK, of course, had no effect on momentum), then I think you are confusing appearances with reality.

The bench minor didn't help but it was 2 minutes out of a 60 minute game. There was plenty of time for Cornell to score again if they cashed in a goal-scoring opportunity, regardless of "momentum" or "heart" or "drive to win."

[BigRedHockeyFan]

Just want to clarify that the bench minor was the only Harvard PP that Cornell was able to successfully kill off. So, as stupid as the fans are who threw fish and other objects, that penalty was not the turning point in the game.

You are overlooking the fact that the bench minor was indeed a momentum changing moment in the game..

And it tires out the guys who have to do all the PK.  It leaves them worn down for the next PK less than 2 minutes later, not just physically, but mentally.

[ithacat]

The only things that should ever be allowed to be thrown on the ice should be hats and teddy bears.

Why the exceptionalism for hats and teddy bears? Hats come during game play and can be just as disruptive.

Are you implying that it is traditional so then it's okay?

Then is it also okay for an entire generation of future Cornell fans to not have the opportunity to hurl fish at the Crimson because we lost one game by one goal because of an incident that takes place once every 9 years?

Hats for a hat trick is widely accepted, not just at Cornell (though we don't get to see it too often). Teddy bears after a game for charity no one would complain about.

[polar]

As a current undergrad, I was embarrassed by the fish and the water bottle, and this is exactly why: with a few notable exceptions, the loyal fans of sections G through N now look at the student section with distaste and disdain. Anyone else notice how A and B swelled to numbers not yet seen this year last night? My fellow undergrads apparently believe the Harvard game is a great excuse to get blackout drunk at a hockey game and throw things onto the ice. There is a lot of tradition behind throwing the fish BEFORE the game, and it's one of the things that make Lynah Lynah. Before tonight, however, most people seemed to understand that it was over once the puck dropped. If you're a fan of throwing fish instead of a fan of hockey, this is something you apparently cannot comprehend. As is said, this is why we can't have nice things.

Did it ultimately cost us the game? No, there was plenty wrong with our play before that point. Did it severely hamper a team that was trying to salvage a poor effort with a strong third period comeback? Absolutely. And as someone who's followed this team across the country in my four years, it makes me sick.

But, to the fan in section J or K that threw the inflatable Nemo, thank you. I was amused.

[brealy_myers]

(1) It's Schafer, not "Shaffer"
(2) I think firing the coach with the second highest winning percentage and the lowest losing percentage in the ECAC would be unlikely and unwise
(3) Schafer's quote, while heated, falls short of "blaming the game on the fans". Argue about whether or not the fish tradition is good or bad, or whether or not there's been too much tacit support or not, this was a big game, and when the fans - who were warned repeatedly - incur that kind of penalty, I too would be pretty pissed if I were the coach - no matter how well the team had been playing or not.

I agree a complaint needs to be made to the Athletic Department.  But not for the fish; rather, because it's time they show Shaffer the door.  Shaffer blaming this game on the fans is disingenuous.  The fans win Cornell games, and give Cornell perhaps the best home ice advantage in all of college hockey.  I couldn't believe it when I read Shaffer's post game comments where he places the blame on the fans.  Shame on you.

The loss (to an awful Harvard team) was because of poor coaching, and an undisciplined team.  Not the fans.  Not the refs.

[Jim Hyla]

Just want to clarify that the bench minor was the only Harvard PP that Cornell was able to successfully kill off. So, as stupid as the fans are who threw fish and other objects, that penalty was not the turning point in the game.

Come on, you're not trying to say that the only turning point can be a goal, are you? Stopping a 2 man advantage or 5 min major can be a turning point. Many, many other non-goal situations can be turning points.

So it's all about momentum? I sure hope not, because momentum is a bullshit concept.

The goal scoring in the game looks like this: Cornell->Harvard->Harvard->Cornell->Harvard->Cornell->Harvard. If you are claiming that the boldface goal was evidence of pro-Cornell momentum that was irrevocably lost by a bench minor that the team killed off (the successful PK, of course, had no effect on momentum), then I think you are confusing appearances with reality.

The bench minor didn't help but it was 2 minutes out of a 60 minute game. There was plenty of time for Cornell to score again if they cashed in a goal-scoring opportunity, regardless of "momentum" or "heart" or "drive to win."

Wow, where did you get that from what I posted. I was responding to a post about turning points, showing, sort of like you did, that they occur often in a game. I certainly didn't imply that it led to irrevocably lost momentum.

To go further than what I posted, I'd rather be starting a face-off at center ice following a tying goal, than following a penalty, and that's not bullshit.::pain::

[Andy Dodd]

.....a barrage of fish demoralizes them.....

No offense, Andy...But, anyone who could believe that has a misplaced sense of their own importance in the grand scheme of a college hockey game...Some of those Harvard players had smiles on their faces...That belies any indication of being demoralized...

.....usually the "extended attempt at awesomeness" is just lame and hurts us.....

Now, there's something upon which we can agree:  LAME!!!

How in the world would this indicate a sense of my own importance?  Yes, I support the fish tradition (in the very respected sense of the actual *tradition* - pre-game, well before play starts, but NOT during the game), but I don't participate in it.  If you had bothered to read the remainder my post, you'd see that I sit in Section M, and I readily admit, compared to the student sections we are of little importance in the grand scheme of a college hockey game.

I can't comment as to whether they were smiling or not - from my seats in M you can't really see what is going on immediately adjacent to the boards, which the Harvard team was busy hugging as hard as they could instead of proudly and defiantly skating onto the ice right in front of Section A like most teams do when they get onto the ice.  If that isn't undignified and demoralizing I don't know what is.

If they were smiling during the final fish-throwing incident I wouldn't be surprised, what was going through their minds was likely on the order of "Sweet, that Cornell student just gave us a power play!"

To Polar - I wouldn't consider it distaste and disdain.  Disappointment, maybe - despite the great efforts of many loyal students (such as yourself) who contribute to the great energy and atmosphere of Lynah, for whatever reason, the student sections just aren't what they used to be.  Why - I don't know, but it is telling that the student season tickets do not sell out any more (or at least did not last year - My "nonpermanent" townie seats last year in Section G were unsold student tickets according to Athletics when I spoke to them this fall.)  I've seen comments that supposedly Athletics jacked up the prices of student tickets significantly (I've seen news articles claiming the $247 price a few years ago was a significant increase, but not what that was an increase from), which would probably change the dynamics of those sections - Instead of being gated by who is willing to spend time camped out in line, it's by who is willing to spend the money.  There are still plenty of great dedicated student fans, but that change allows people like our favorite bottle thrower to somehow attend the Harvard game, and all it takes is for a few bad apples to drag things down significantly.  

Edit:  One other interesting anecdote - When I was leaving after the Clarkson game, I heard one of their tuba players commenting, "This place used to be really scary.  It just isn't any more."  Things have definitely changed, and the opposing team fans are noticing.  

[redice]

.....a barrage of fish demoralizes them.....

No offense, Andy...But, anyone who could believe that has a misplaced sense of their own importance in the grand scheme of a college hockey game...Some of those Harvard players had smiles on their faces...That belies any indication of being demoralized...

.....usually the "extended attempt at awesomeness" is just lame and hurts us.....

Now, there's something upon which we can agree:  LAME!!!

How in the world would this indicate a sense of my own importance?  Yes, I support the fish tradition (in the very respected sense of the actual *tradition* - pre-game, well before play starts, but NOT during the game), but I don't participate in it.  If you had bothered to read the remainder my post, you'd see that I sit in Section M, and I readily admit, compared to the student sections we are of little importance in the grand scheme of a college hockey game.

Actually Andy, if you re-read your own post, you would see that you didn't say anything about you sitting in Sec. M.   You made a reference to what could be heard in Sec. M (of "cheer coming out of somewhere in B").   But, nothing about your post told me that you were sitting there...I sit in Sec. N and, in days gone by, I would agree with your assertion that "we are of little importance in the grand scheme of a college hockey game."   Of late, there is precious little noise coming out of the student sections unless the team gives them something to cheer about...I come with a history that used to take great pride in generating cheers when things weren't going well for the team & they need a lift (ya know:  "let's get them a goal" mentality)...That doesn't happen often these days...If the kids want to help the team they should do more of that & leave their fish at home.

I can't comment as to whether they were smiling or not - from my seats in M you can't really see what is going on immediately adjacent to the boards, which the Harvard team was busy hugging as hard as they could instead of proudly and defiantly skating onto the ice right in front of Section A like most teams do when they get onto the ice.  If that isn't undignified and demoralizing I don't know what is.

Actually Andy, I sit high in Sec. N and, when the Harvard players turned in the proper direction, I was able to see the smiles...I think they're humored by it...And, I believe there are stories from past Harvard players who find the whole scene quite entertaining...For them to stay on the opposite side of the ice from the fish is not what I would call "undignified and demoralizing"..Most adults would call that "smart".   Why would they posit themselves where they would subject themselves to that barrage?

Edit:  One other interesting anecdote - When I was leaving after the Clarkson game, I heard one of their tuba players commenting, "This place used to be really scary.  It just isn't any more."  Things have definitely changed, and the opposing team fans are noticing.  

See my comments about the "Let's get em a goal" mentality...Even our opposing teams fans have noticed what I've observed for some time.