Polls 1/5/09 (Cornell #6/8)

[Chris '03]

Cornell up to 8 with 1 first place vote in the USCHO:

1   Notre Dame   (47)   16-3-2   994   1
2   Boston University( 2)   13-4-1   940   3
3   Minnesota      10-3-5   886   4
4   Northeastern      12-4-2   782   6
5   Denver              13-6-2   720   5
6   Miami              12-5-3   697   2
7   Princeton      13-3-0   690   8
8   Cornell   ( 1)           9-1-3   673   10
9   Boston College      9-5-2   660   7
10   Colorado College   11-6-5   534   9
10   Michigan      13-7-0   534   12
12   Vermont              11-4-2   513   13
13   New Hampshire      9-6-3   298   15
14   Air Force      15-4-1   288   11
15   Dartmouth      9-5-0   198   20
16   Ohio State      13-6-1   197   NR
17   Wisconsin      10-9-3   153   14
18   Nebraska-Omaha      12-6-3   130   16
19   Alaska              10-6-4   123   18
20   Minnesota-Duluth   9-5-6   118   NR
Others Receiving Votes: Quinnipiac 111, North Dakota 88, Minnesota State 86, Yale 33, Maine 30, Massachusetts 8, St. Cloud State 7, Michigan State 6, Niagara 3 

#6 with 1 first place in USA Today:

1   Notre Dame           504   (32)   1   16-3-2
2   Boston University   472   (1)   3   13-4-1
3   University of Minnesota   435      4   10-3-5
4   Northeastern University   360      6   12-4-2
5   Princeton University   332      8   13-3-0
6   Cornell University   316   (1)   9   9-1-3
7   University of Denver   309      5   13-6-2
8   Miami (Ohio) University   277      2   12-5-3
9   Boston College           261      7   9-5-2
10   University of Vermont   218      13   11-4-2
11   University of Michigan   200      11   13-7-0
12   Colorado College   164      10   11-6-5
13   UNH                   74      14   9-6-3
14   U.S. Air Force Academy   50      12   15-4-1
15   Ohio State University   38      NR   13-6-1
Others receiving votes: Quinnipiac University 18, Dartmouth College 14, University of Maine 8, University of Nebraska Omaha 8, University of Wisconsin 8, Yale University 6, University of North Dakota 4, University of Alaska 2, Michigan State University 2. 

[scoop85]

I saw some of BU's win over Denver, and they were extremely impressive.

[mnagowski]

Any thoughts as to who might be giving Cornell their first place vote?

[TimV]

Goon from North Dakota?

[Rosey]

Who the hell is giving us first-place votes?

[CM cWo 44]

[quote Kyle Rose]Who the hell is giving us first-place votes?[/quote]

Someone who thinks record is the most important consideration.

[Trotsky]

[quote CM cWo 44][quote Kyle Rose]Who the hell is giving us first-place votes?[/quote]

Someone who thinks record is the most important consideration.[/quote]PWR, probably.

[KeithK]

[quote Trotsky][quote CM cWo 44][quote Kyle Rose]Who the hell is giving us first-place votes?[/quote]

Someone who thinks record is the most important consideration.[/quote]PWR, probably.[/quote]If you believe strongly in the ranking systems then it makes complete sense to vote for Cornell.  Or Princeton, for that matter - they've been right up at the top along with us.  The voters appear to be trusting more in their subjective assesments of who they think is best and are opting for ND (6th in both PWR and KRACH).  Not that that's necessarily a bad thing.  Polls are supposed to be subjective.  [Obligatory disclaimer:] Fortunately we get to decide things on the ice.

[Al DeFlorio]

Still having a problem with being placed--subjectively--behind Princeton in the polls,  [Sorry, Beeej.;-)] especially given the Tigers' fine performance yesterday.  Do I care?  No.  [That's to avoid the usual ration of crap from the peanut gallery.::uhoh::]  But it just puzzles me.

[Beeeej]

[quote Al DeFlorio]Still having a problem with being placed--subjectively--behind Princeton in the polls,  [Sorry, Beeej.;-)] especially given the Tigers' fine performance yesterday.  Do I care?  No.  [That's to avoid the usual ration of crap from the peanut gallery.::uhoh::]  But it just puzzles me.[/quote]

No problem, Awl.

Mathematically, it's possible that a majority of poll voters placed us ahead of Princeton, but a small minority of them placed us far enough behind Princeton to make up for it (despite even a first-place vote).  They're stupid, stupid people, Al, and clearly they should be shot.

(In addition to everything I said last time, polls almost always reflect trends, not just immediate records and PWR.  Princeton started off higher, and Cornell started off lower, so any convergence resulting from Cornell performing better than Princeton was going to be gradual as long as Princeton didn't completely tank.  If the voters had yanked Cornell up several spots and Princeton down several a month ago, then Cornell had lost even a single game on a weekend when Princeton swept, they'd look pretty goofy.  Movement is slow.  If Cornell "deserves" to be ahead of Princeton in the polls, eventually they'll get there.)

(Plus, the polls still don't actually matter.)  :-)

[Jim Hyla]

[quote Beeeej](In addition to everything I said last time, polls almost always reflect trends, not just immediate records and PWR.  Princeton started off higher, and Cornell started off lower, so any convergence resulting from Cornell performing better than Princeton was going to be gradual as long as Princeton didn't completely tank.[/quote]

True, so true and exactly why I think there should not be any polls till at least the season is 1/3 completed, in every sport. Not that I ever expect it will happen,::bang:: but if we realize that you can't come out with an accurate computer ranking till about 1/2 way through, why do we think humans are that much smarter?::screwy:: or is it?::drunk::

[Beeeej]

[quote Jim Hyla][quote Beeeej](In addition to everything I said last time, polls almost always reflect trends, not just immediate records and PWR.  Princeton started off higher, and Cornell started off lower, so any convergence resulting from Cornell performing better than Princeton was going to be gradual as long as Princeton didn't completely tank.[/quote]

True, so true and exactly why I think there should not be any polls till at least the season is 1/3 completed, in every sport. Not that I ever expect it will happen,::bang:: but if we realize that you can't come out with an accurate computer ranking till about 1/2 way through, why do we think humans are that much smarter?::screwy:: or is it?::drunk::[/quote]

We bother because while you're right to an extent, people will always disagree about when it's worth bothering and how accurate poll voters are, and so if you think it should start at the beginning of January, but I think mid-December, you'll think I'm as crazy as I think the guy is who wants to start in late November.  Since you'll never get a consensus on how long after the beginning to start, and since we do at least have some knowledge about returning players and incoming rookies, there's no good reason not to start at the beginning.

Plus, who said it was about humans being "smarter"?  I don't think the poll is ever intended to predict the season's outcome, I think it's intended to reflect exactly what it reflects - the opinions of the voters in any given week.

My problem is with the final poll of the season, which if I recall correctly comes after the first two rounds of the NCAAs.  That's definitely a "why bother?" situation.

[dragonfan]

We did beat princeton but it was the first game of the season and it was a close game. We got out shot by like 20 or so,they are just waiting for the game at lynah that will decide alot.

[Beeeej]

[quote dragonfan]We did beat princeton but it was the first game of the season and it was a close game. We got out shot by like 20 or so,they are just waiting for the game at lynah that will decide alot.[/quote]

I can assure you with nearly 100% certainty that absolutely none of the poll voters thought to themselves, "Well, Princeton and Cornell haven't played at Lynah yet, and the shutout on the road might have been a fluke because the Big Red got badly outshot, so I'm going to leave Princeton ahead of Cornell for now" before sending in their votes.  Except perhaps Guy Gadowsky, if he's got a vote.

Really, I would be surprised if any of the voters take more than three minutes filling out their ballots each week, after maybe four minutes scanning the previous week's results.  We spend way more time debating it here than I think any voter does, probably by degrees of magnitude.

Plus, remember, a lot of the voters are in the west, never see us play personally, and haven't the slightest idea of the relative strengths of two sissy-Ivy schools who wouldn't know a real college hockey program if it came up to them and offered them a full scholarship in Canadian dollars, but they do remember Princeton won the ECACs last year and haven't lost many games, so by golly, I'll give 'em a few points.

[Trotsky]

Polls were invented by newspapers to generate interest, sell copies, and make money.  They've never been anything more than that.