Debate analysis

[RichH]

[quote Killer]Just wondering, what with Sarah Palin's "hockey mom", and I guess what can best be called "soon-to-be-hockey-mom-in-law" credentials, does this thread risk being the first to be split by Beeeej and moved to the Men's Hockey forum?[/quote]

Lord knows that it's probably more relevant there than yet another Al & RichS pissing match.

[Rita]

[quote Section A Banshee]Ah, but the ultimate drinking game will be the VP debates this week.  I expect to be thoroughly entertained.[/quote]

What is the count on the number of times Sarah Palin (and now Joe Biden) have said "Maverick"? ::drunk::.  The past few minutes have been quite dangerous for whoever had that phrase tonight. ::yark::

[Beeeej]

[quote Rita][quote Section A Banshee]Ah, but the ultimate drinking game will be the VP debates this week.  I expect to be thoroughly entertained.[/quote]

What is the count on the number of times Sarah Palin (and now Joe Biden) have said "Maverick"? ::drunk::.  The past few minutes have been quite dangerous for whoever had that phrase tonight. ::yark::[/quote]

*belch*  I lost count at eleventy-fleen.

[ugarte]

Biden was a little clunky but had a few excellent moments first, when he repeated the ways in which McCain will be exactly like Bush; second where he listed all the ways McCain was wrong about the war; third, where he listed the issues on which McCain is anything but a maverick. In a debate where I think very little will resonate, those points were made forcefully and, I hope, effectively.

Palin? Was the bar really set so low that this was considered an acceptable performance? When she didn't like a question she babbled some nonsense about energy. When she decided to stay on topic she started every answer with a minute of folksy, empty throat-clearing riddled with homespun cliche. I get that she was going for a down-home attitude but I found it incredibly cloying and artificial.

The pundits seem to be giving this to Palin but as far as I can tell it is because they are grading on a curve. Biden was more on topic, was more substantive both on his own policies and the McCain policies that he opposes and was much more human than I think people expected of him.

These same experts completely whiffed on the analysis of the first Presidential debate and I suspect that they are now 0 for 2. I give the round to Biden.

The CBS News flash poll gives the VP debate to Biden 46% - 21%.

[Lauren '06]

[quote Beeeej][quote Rita][quote Section A Banshee]Ah, but the ultimate drinking game will be the VP debates this week.  I expect to be thoroughly entertained.[/quote]

What is the count on the number of times Sarah Palin (and now Joe Biden) have said "Maverick"? ::drunk::.  The past few minutes have been quite dangerous for whoever had that phrase tonight. ::yark::[/quote]

*belch*  I lost count at eleventy-fleen.[/quote]
Thank God Biden finally came out with a "shut up, he's not a maverick" spiel after the eleventy-fleenth time she said it.  And I'm tired of writers who say calling Palin's voice "shrill" is sexist.  It's shrill.  Nails-on-a-chalkboard shrill.

You know what would be great?  Debate pop-up video, where people go back and check the accuracy of everyone's statistics and other bullet points and stick them right up on the screen while they're being said.  I'd be really curious on a lot of the details on both sides of this one.  Many numbers were thrown around.

[nr53]

I probably should have posted this earlier but I didn't think about it until now. We had some fun playing bingo for the debates.

http://www.newsweek.com/id/160773

I hope they do that for the other ones coming up. I found it actually made me pay more attention to what they're saying to see if I could mark it down. Sadly though, I didn't win.

[billhoward]

Yes, the bar was set so low this was an acceptable performance by Palin. She made no gaffes that the SNL scriptwriters could use verbatim.

But as to the larger issue: Did Sarah Palin seem a person you want a heartbeat away from taking over for a guy who's old enough to be her father (or in the ever-expanding Palin family, a guy old enough to be her grandfather)? I didn't think so before and don't now. More importantly, I also believe that's the take-away for undecideds who might have been swayed.

Joe Biden didn't enunciate well at times, his sentences were tongue-tied in the way Palin's complete throughts have been tongue-tied, but he got his points across. He spoke powerfully about the loss of his wife in the accident and had an excellent closer with the "god bless our troops" line. Plus what he had to say resounded with mainstream voters better.

[Jordan 04]

The veep debate didn't change the course of anything, so Obama continues to seemingly be on his way to a wide victory. It will be interesting to see how this effects next Tuesday, as being well behind and on his "home turf" (town hall) may force McCain to be uber-aggressive and feisty.

With greater public speaking or debating skills, Palin could have pulled off something impressive last night. However, given her dearth in these areas, I thought it came across as it was -- a regurgitation of talking points fed to her endlessly during "debate camp".

[RichH]

Oh, the game of lowered expectations is an interesting one.  I think at the end, you could hear both parties release a sigh of relief.  Palin didn't drool on herself and for the most part spoke in complete sentences with subjects, verbs, and predicates (dropping 'g's is folksy!).  Biden stayed on message (and was concise!), didn't condescend or resort to sarcasm, and genuinely appeared to be pleased to debate Palin respectfully.

To me, the media reaction is the SNL target for this debate.  "Hooray!  She didn't embarrass herself again!  Amazing performance!"  Look at it.  Palin seemed like she was there for a final exam in debate class, and Biden seemed to be running for Vice President of the United States.  At least Palin's handlers may have realized that they don't have to keep her in a snow-globe 24-7.

And the folksiness angle?  Can we stop this please?  Two elections have given us a president based on the "I could have a beer with this guy" metric, and look where it's gotten us.  I WANT someone better and smarter than me in that office.  We're electing leaders not buddies.

OK.  You want someone "folksy?"  How about creating a voter-elected cabinet-level position.  Secretary of Folksiness.  They can go on TV every week and lay down all the "oh gollys" "fer chripes sakes"  "you betchas" and "dern tootins" to fill up our gullets.  They can go on an "Applebees tour" every quarter to hang out with those people who vote that way.  Two-way communication.  The SOF can update the people on what the executive branch is up to in plain-speak "one-of-us" language, and report back to the president what the pulse of the people is.  Maybe host a variety show or something.  They can do that while the smart, boring president does the boring paperwork and boring decision-making.  Heck, expand the Press Secretary position to do that folksy stuff for the cameras.

Frankly, an analysis of the current administration probably reveals that this is the sort of setup they have anyway.  Bush dances for the cameras and clears brush, and Cheney does all the grown-up work.

[Lauren '06]

Rich, will you be finding yourself in the pacific northwest anytime soon?  I need to buy you at least fifteen beers for that post.

[ftyuv]

Okay, someone has to point out the irony of rewarding a post that argues against the "I could have a beer with this guy" argument by buying the guy who wrote it fifteen beers. **]


Anyway, I completely agree with you, but you might be preaching to the crowd.  There are various polls that point to Dem-leaning voters saying they consider issues more important, and GOP-leaning voters saying they consider "character" more important.  Personally, I think electing someone based on how nice they are makes about as much sense as a toad in a volcano, but I guess that just betrays my elitist east-coast mentality.

One thing I don't understand is how Palin gets all of the "down to earth" points.  The lady lives in a state so sparsely populated that 19 cities have more people -- that's the cities proper, not their metro regions -- and so rich that its tax rate is negative.  She hunts moose and flies in her personal water-landing airplane... how many people in America actually fit that demographic?  Biden takes the train to work every day, but somehow hunting animals in the tundra is more in touch with people's everday lives.  And sorry, but how does being governor of Alaska make her qualified for radical changes in energy policy?  Seems to me that if anything, it would make her more aligned with the problem than the solution.

Oh, crap.  I meant to point out a small irony, and I ended up on a rant. Look at what I've become.

[jtwcornell91]

There's also the irony that the last guy to win the presidency on the "guy I could have a beer with" demographic swore off alcohol decades ago.

[Killer]

Matt Damon posed a question that I'd also like to hear answered, namely, just how old does Palin think the world actually is?  I agree with him that we should not entrust the nuclear codes to someone whose understanding of science somehow allows for a world that is between six and twenty thousand years old, and who wants intelligent design to be given significant (maybe even equal) weight in science classes.  Hey, if she pitches herself as an "expert" on energy, yet buys buys into the "young earth" theory, where exactly did all those fossil fuels come from?

[KeithK]

[quote Killer]Matt Damon posed a question that I'd also like to hear answered, namely, just how old does Palin think the world actually is?  I agree with him that we should not entrust the nuclear codes to someone whose understanding of science somehow allows for a world that is between six and twenty thousand years old, and who wants intelligent design to be given significant (maybe even equal) weight in science classes.  Hey, if she pitches herself as an "expert" on energy, yet buys buys into the "young earth" theory, where exactly did all those fossil fuels come from?[/quote]
In what possible way does one's views on evolution or the age of earth have any relevance to energy policy?  If you're a geologist searching for oil theories about how the oil was created/deposited matter in where you look for it.  But for a politician?  Where and when to allow exploration and extraction, the royalties you charge, how and to what degree you encourage alternative sources, these are all things in the here and now for which evolution/creation have absolutely no bearing.

Yes, I know you're trying to use her beliefs in this area as a proxy to say "she's a stupid, religious rube".  Then just say that.  Don't claim that there's actually some real policy reason for the question.

You actually listen to Matt Damon's political opinions and analysis?  Seriously? Why?

[RichH]

[quote KeithK]You actually listen to Matt Damon's political opinions and analysis?  Seriously? Why?[/quote]

Probably because Killer agrees with him.  It's easy and natural to latch on to anyone saying what you're thinking if they have the advantage of using whatever fame they have to get on the TV.  Is it any different than listening to any particular blogger?  Keith's same question could be asked of any of the flapping jaws on TV.  We're all assumed to be at least potential voters here...Jim Lehrer, Matt Damon, Sean Hannity, and Killer are all allowed to ask questions of our candidates in whatever forum they can.  Maybe they won't get answered...and I'll listen and think about things fellow voters have to say as long as it's reasonably intelligent and relevant.  ("Why are you so spunky?" won't get my attention)

Funny quote in a story I read about tonight's debate:

The good news about town hall debates: "The candidates tend to answer the questions more directly," said Mitchell McKinney, an associate professor at the University of Missouri who has studied the questions posed at town hall forums. "It's one thing to ignore what Jim Lehrer is saying, but quite another if you're seen as ignoring the question of an actual voter."

Wait...so Jim Lehrer isn't an actual voter?  Why is it OK to ignore his question and not Lurlene from Arkansas?

That said, a thought relating to the content of Killer's post can be rooted in Keith Olbermann's most recent "Special Comment."  There's an old lady who shot herself in the chest rather than be evicted (from K.O.'s comment) thanks to the mortgage mess we're in.  We're in at least two wars, we have no real solution to a growing energy crisis, and the world's economies are crumbling in front of our eyes.  Yet you still want to know most desperately how old she thinks the Earth is?  Of anything you could ask her, THAT'S the one you choose??

And the candidates themselves...they're talking about the past friends each candidate has?  Enough of that petty political bullshit.  This isn't the time for it.  There are crises all around us, and we still continue to be blind to it in our overall political discourse.