Guest Editorial in Today's Sun

[Jim Hyla]

[quote KeithK][quote mnagowski]

Cornell students aren't paying tens of thousands of dollars to support the various pursuits of the University. They are paying tens of thousands of dollars for a University education and (hopefully) a diploma with Ezra's face on it. It's an investment by the student and a fair* exchange. It doesn't give entitle students to cheap hockey tickets or a hockey team, for that matter.

Well, then this is where you and I differ. I am of the opinion that a large part of the value in a Cornell education lies beyond the diploma and the classroom, and can be found in the way that students grow socially, emotionally, physically, and morally during their time at Cornell.

You may not think that the University should provide cheap hockey tickets to students, but it is already financially supporting a lot of things to support the various ways in which students can grow and learn during college. ...

You may think these are are frivolous wastes of University money, but I imagine most students and alums do not. ...

So when admission to a college hockey game is free for students at other ECAC schools, but the student ticket price of Cornell hockey keeps on going  up, I think we have a valid reason to be concerned.[/quote]
You're reading too much into my post.  I don't necessarily think all of the other things that Cornell spends money on are frivolous. I don't think that the other stuff is meaningless.  I'm just saying that what you're paying for specifically is the education and the pedigree.  The other stuff is gravy.  It may or may not have affected your decision to come to Ithaca.  But you can't really expect any specific benefit from your tuition dollars other than an education.

We can ask for cheap or free hockey tickets.  But paying tuition doesn't entitle us to cheap hockey viewing.[/quote]

Totally agree with you, Keith. Should I be worried about that?::worry:: Getting back to the subject, students don't even pay for their entire education with their tuition. That's why endowment is so important. Now I hope that a good hockey experience as a student makes one more willing to donate as an alum, but that doesn't mean low priced or free tickets are guaranteed.

[Beeeej]

[quote Jim Hyla]Getting back to the subject, students don't even pay for their entire education with their tuition. That's why endowment is so important.[/quote]

...and current-use, non-endowment gifts, too.

[KeithK]

[quote Jim Hyla][Totally agree with you, Keith. Should I be worried about that?::worry:: [/quote]That was my first thought to.  Had to double check the "Posted by:" field :-).  Then again, we definitely agree on the important things in life.  Like what college hockey team to root for.

[ugarte]

[quote KeithK][quote mnagowski]

Cornell students aren't paying tens of thousands of dollars to support the various pursuits of the University. They are paying tens of thousands of dollars for a University education and (hopefully) a diploma with Ezra's face on it. It's an investment by the student and a fair* exchange. It doesn't give entitle students to cheap hockey tickets or a hockey team, for that matter.

Well, then this is where you and I differ. I am of the opinion that a large part of the value in a Cornell education lies beyond the diploma and the classroom, and can be found in the way that students grow socially, emotionally, physically, and morally during their time at Cornell.

You may not think that the University should provide cheap hockey tickets to students, but it is already financially supporting a lot of things to support the various ways in which students can grow and learn during college. ...

You may think these are are frivolous wastes of University money, but I imagine most students and alums do not. ...

So when admission to a college hockey game is free for students at other ECAC schools, but the student ticket price of Cornell hockey keeps on going  up, I think we have a valid reason to be concerned.[/quote]
You're reading too much into my post.  I don't necessarily think all of the other things that Cornell spends money on are frivolous. I don't think that the other stuff is meaningless.  I'm just saying that what you're paying for specifically is the education and the pedigree.  The other stuff is gravy.  It may or may not have affected your decision to come to Ithaca.  But you can't really expect any specific benefit from your tuition dollars other than an education.

We can ask for cheap or free hockey tickets.  But paying tuition doesn't entitle us to cheap hockey viewing.[/quote]
The choice isn't between "take your diploma and be happy with it" and "free back massages for everyone". Your position assumes that tuition covers "education," as opposed to "a year at an elite university environment." If the other stuff that Cornell provides - more or less standard at any equivalent institution in 2008 - weren't provided, Cornell would charge a lot less and prospective students would be a lot less interested in attending, despite the quality of the faculty (which would soon drop off when the university became a dreary place and professors left in droves).

It is reasonable to ask why Cornell charges students for hockey when so many schools don't and charges for hockey when it doesn't charge for other potentially revenue generating sports (or, at least doesn't compel the whole school to pay via student activity fee for the tickets of those that do attend). There are both good and bad answers to these questions, but "suck it, undergrad" isn't one of the good ones.

[Jim Hyla]

[quote ugarte]
 Your position assumes that tuition covers "education," as opposed to "a year at an elite university environment." [/q]

I think the point is tuition doesn't cover education. The U needs to find ways to pay for what's not covered and then decide what else to offer for free and how much to charge for the others.

[q]It is reasonable to ask why Cornell charges students for hockey when so many schools don't and charges for hockey when it doesn't charge for other potentially revenue generating sports (or, at least doesn't compel the whole school to pay via student activity fee for the tickets of those that do attend). There are both good and bad answers to these questions, but "suck it, undergrad" isn't one of the good ones.[/quote]

It's probably decided it can charge for hockey and still get fans, whereas charging the same for rowing probably wouldn't generate much revenue and would cancel any fans.

My point is that it doesn't have enough revenue to give everything away for free, and it should try and be fiscally responsible when tuition can't cover the costs. Insert all the articles, blogs,and eLynah discussion about our lack of parity with Harvard, Yale and Princeton's endowment and the impact upon recruiting. They have to generate money from somewhere; either people can pay more or we can give more.

[Robb]

[quote mnagowski]
You may not think that the University should provide cheap hockey tickets to students, but it is already financially supporting a lot of things to support the various ways in which students can grow and learn during college. These include such things as rather irreverent guest lecturers (John Cleese or Bill Nye anyone?), Habitat for Humanity trips to rural West Virgina, Adirondack backpacking expeditions, intercollegiate engineering competitions, poetry readings and art installations, and yes, intercollegiate athletics. Personally, I believe I benefited immensely from a lot of these activities when I was in college, and I know most of my peers feel the same way too.

You may think these are are frivolous wastes of University money, but I imagine most students and alums do not.[/quote]
You just shot your own argument in the foot.  Most of the items that you cite are NOT funded out of the main university budget.  Speaking as a past president of Cornell's Habitat for Humanity chapter, I assure you that the organization gets no money from Cornell apart from the SAFC funds that it applies for; the vast majority of its budget comes from its own fundraising efforts.  The same is true for many of the other activities you list - they are generally self-funded with SAFC supplements at best. I don't know if it is still true today, but the year that I was a member of Cornell's Hybrid-Electric Vehicle team, the budget was entirely sponsor based, and those sponsors were secured by the team's own efforts - the university provided lab space, but everything else was self funded.

Just because something is "good" (and I absolutely agree that everything you mention, including cheap hockey tickets, is good) does not mean that the university should necessarily be funding it.

[KeithK]

[quote ugarte]
The choice isn't between "take your diploma and be happy with it" and "free back massages for everyone". Your position assumes that tuition covers "education," as opposed to "a year at an elite university environment." If the other stuff that Cornell provides - more or less standard at any equivalent institution in 2008 - weren't provided, Cornell would charge a lot less and prospective students would be a lot less interested in attending, despite the quality of the faculty (which would soon drop off when the university became a dreary place and professors left in droves).

It is reasonable to ask why Cornell charges students for hockey when so many schools don't and charges for hockey when it doesn't charge for other potentially revenue generating sports (or, at least doesn't compel the whole school to pay via student activity fee for the tickets of those that do attend). There are both good and bad answers to these questions, but "suck it, undergrad" isn't one of the good ones.[/quote]
I'm not saying "suck it undergrads".  I'm just trying to throw some cold water on what I see as a sense of entitlement in some of the posts here. Yes, Cornell would be a much less atractive place without all of the stuff that happens on campus.  Yes, the quality of the faculty would probably suffer as well.  But you're not paying for that stuff.  Tens of thousands of dollars in tuition doesn't mean you have to get free or cheap hockey tickets.

FWIW, Cornell does effectively charge the entire student body for tickets to other sporting events.  Or at least they used to.  When I was an undergrad (89-93) students had to pay to get into football and basketball games (and probably a couple others as well).  This changed in the mid 90's when the SA first allocated money to athletics.  As I understand it Mr. Noel didn't properly file for SA money recently and that's when hockey ticket prices jumped up.  If no money is flowing to athletics from this channel then I guess the AD decided that it wasn't prudent to start charging for football/basketball/lacrosse/etc. when there was now a long history of students getting in free.  It's a lot easier to justify a price increase than charging for something that used to be free.

[mnagowski]

You just shot your own argument in the foot.

I'm fully aware of this fact. But one way or another -- either through direct financial support, a quasi-student run funding arm, or implicit in-kind support -- the University is supporting (and subsidizing) a lot of activities that otherwise wouldn't be able to exist. I helped to organize a Habitat for Humanity dodgeball tournament and fundraiser in Bartels Hall for a couple of years, and besides for the $5k we received from the Student Activities Fund, we received a lot of in-kind support from University counsel, environmental health and safety, etc. And if the SAFC didn't exist in its present form, some other University enterprise would be around to serve the same function. It's not like Cornell would go on without supporting student activities.

As I understand it Mr. Noel didn't properly file for SA money recently and that's when hockey ticket prices jumped up.

This might be the underlying culprit. My understanding of the situation was that Athletics filled out the by-line funding forms as they had always been done, failing to realize that a new process had been put into place. And then the SA decided to make an example out of Athletics. I'm not certain if Athletics has been able to reapply successfully yet.

[mnagowski]

f no money is flowing to athletics from this channel then I guess the AD decided that it wasn't prudent to start charging for football/basketball/lacrosse/etc. when there was now a long history of students getting in free.

But students do have to pay for all of those events:

http://www.cornellbigred.com/Sports/general/2007/TicketOffice.asp?tab=bigred

Notice how grad students only pay $9, whereas for undergrads it is $13? Seems like the graduate student council is still funding Athletics.

[KeithK]

[quote mnagowski]

f no money is flowing to athletics from this channel then I guess the AD decided that it wasn't prudent to start charging for football/basketball/lacrosse/etc. when there was now a long history of students getting in free.

But students do have to pay for all of those events:

http://www.cornellbigred.com/Sports/general/2007/TicketOffice.asp?tab=bigred

Notice how grad students only pay $9, whereas for undergrads it is $13? Seems like the graduate student council is still funding Athletics.[/quote]
OK, sorry.  I guess I'm not up on the situation in other sports anymore.  :-).  Point still holds.  Students used to pay.  Then the SA funded it and they were free for a while.

[mnagowski]

[quote KeithK][quote mnagowski]

f no money is flowing to athletics from this channel then I guess the AD decided that it wasn't prudent to start charging for football/basketball/lacrosse/etc. when there was now a long history of students getting in free.

But students do have to pay for all of those events:

http://www.cornellbigred.com/Sports/general/2007/TicketOffice.asp?tab=bigred

Notice how grad students only pay $9, whereas for undergrads it is $13? Seems like the graduate student council is still funding Athletics.[/quote]
OK, sorry.  I guess I'm not up on the situation in other sports anymore.  :-).  Point still holds.  Students used to pay.  Then the SA funded it and they were free for a while.[/quote]

No worries. It was a surprise to me too. I apologize for sounding so curt.