Who muzzled the band at Starr?

[Lauren '06]

[quote ShardZ]The point I was trying to make was, as KRG and others have said, there was no point in the pep band getting potentially kicked out over something silly like how frequently we could play davy.  My comment was that I had hoped that former pep band managers would be more ... sensitive to the fact that event staff at away rinks are not always the most rational or fair towards the pep band.  

It is easy for someone unconnected to criticize the band for not standing up to the colgate rink staff, playing anyway and risk repercussions from their or our athletics departments.  I just feel that people who have felt these repercussions personally should not be the ones leading the criticism.[/quote]
Excuse me?  Far from leading the criticism, I wasn't even being critical.  I was understanding your position and offering a possible solution, one which has worked in the past.  The pep band's job (as I've always seen it) is to get away with as much as it can in a hostile environment, and one of the ways we've done that is to test the waters in such a way that the manager has an excuse if it doesn't go well.  It's not a criticism, it's a different approach.  So for you--someone I barely know, and don't recall having any face-to-face conversations with--to hit me with that out of nowhere was not only uncalled for but nonsensical.

And if you want to get into that incident at Brown, here it is: I did exactly what that rink staffer asked for.  To the letter.  And the band followed my directions, for which I was thankful.  The rink staffer proceeded to step on my throat anyway because of how fans unrelated to the pep band behaved.  So if anything, what I should have taken from that was to give every rink staff the finger--if we're going to get in trouble anyway, we may as well do whatever the hell we want.

[JDeafv]

Nobody kicked the Colgate band out for playing over our Tubas in Lynah last night.  This is not the first time they have done this.  Perhaps we should tell the Colgate band they are not welcome in Lynah next year.

[Lauren '06]

[quote JDeafv]Nobody kicked the Colgate band out for playing over our Tubas in Lynah last night.  This is not the first time they have done this.  Perhaps we should tell the Colgate band they are not welcome in Lynah next year.[/quote]
Haha--I don't think we want to get into tit-for-tat on home rink treatment.  Lynah rink staff had (at least in my time) a reputation as one of the worst for opposing bands.

[polar]

If my memory is right, we didn't let them come last year at all. Because of the snow storm they only brought something like four instruments, and because thamusic track, Cornell band. Our playing time was t didn't constitute a full band, the staff didn't let them bring the instruments. I wasn't there, but if anything I'm happy they were actually able to bring their full band this year. So few other schools do.

[ugarte]

[quote Section A Banshee][quote ShardZ]The point I was trying to make was, as KRG and others have said, there was no point in the pep band getting potentially kicked out over something silly like how frequently we could play davy.  My comment was that I had hoped that former pep band managers would be more ... sensitive to the fact that event staff at away rinks are not always the most rational or fair towards the pep band.  

It is easy for someone unconnected to criticize the band for not standing up to the colgate rink staff, playing anyway and risk repercussions from their or our athletics departments.  I just feel that people who have felt these repercussions personally should not be the ones leading the criticism.[/quote]
Excuse me?  Far from leading the criticism, I wasn't even being critical.  [/quote]

Can I try to recap this and calm everything down? I think some things are being misinterpreted.

In his last post ShardZ was trying to say that he brought up the Brown incident because you have personal experience with irrational treatment by rink staff, so you know that the band can't always play on - and was acknowledging that it sounded like a harsh dig and apologizing - but I think in his first post he was surprised that in light of your experience, you'd refer to the pantomime at Dartmouth as a model for the pep band's behavior.

I know nothing about either incident beyond what I've read in this thread, but that is my attempt at a summary. I'm happy to be corrected if I'm wrong.

[Scersk '97]

Great, you sang. That's WILD!

There are some things that are negotiable, and others that aren't.  It's the FIGHT SONG, dammit!  Are you the Cornell Pep Band or the Cornell Glee Club?  What's next?

*  "Our sound guy does the game from a mix CD.  There's no time for you to play. Sorry."
*  "You can't play your instruments."  (SLU used to do that to Clarkson.)
*  "No more cheering for your team; it makes our team feel bad."

I mean, in the grand tradition of G.O.B. from Arrested Development: "Come on!"  Do you really think they're going to throw you out for playing the fight song?  Really?  Haven't you guys learned how to, as Lauren mentions, "give [the] rink staff the finger," whether directly or indirectly?

Two bands playing their fight songs over each other is part of the tradition of college hockey (or basketball, or football, or whatever).  It's part of showing your school spirit; it's part of showing that you're there to support the team.  It's been done, literally, for generations.

(By the way, did one of you really write "someone unconnected?"  Do you know who you're talking to?)

Pardon me for sounding a little "kids these days," but this sounds like a typically mousy response from a risk-averse generation, and, pardon me Jim, bland reinforcement from their (now) risk-averse parents (or grandparents?).  Some of the best times I had in the pep band  were the times where we almost got thrown out, where we did our job in the most hostile of environments.  You do your job, support the team, don't compromise your principles, and get out.  Honestly, this never would have been allowed to happen when I was in school, and the pep band rank-and-file of those days would've impeached your asses for being so weak.

But go ahead.  Do what you want.  Blindly follow authority.  Lead your safe little lives.  Glad to see you're learning something at Cornell.

[Jim Hyla]

[quote Scersk '97]Great, you sang. That's WILD!

There are some things that are negotiable, and others that aren't.  It's the FIGHT SONG, dammit!  Are you the Cornell Pep Band or the Cornell Glee Club?  What's next?

*  "Our sound guy does the game from a mix CD.  There's no time for you to play. Sorry."
*  "You can't play your instruments."  (SLU used to do that to Clarkson.)
*  "No more cheering for your team; it makes our team feel bad."

I mean, in the grand tradition of G.O.B. from Arrested Development: "Come on!"  Do you really think they're going to throw you out for playing the fight song?  Really?  Haven't you guys learned how to, as Lauren mentions, "give [the] rink staff the finger," whether directly or indirectly?

Two bands playing their fight songs over each other is part of the tradition of college hockey (or basketball, or football, or whatever).  It's part of showing your school spirit; it's part of showing that you're there to support the team.  It's been done, literally, for generations.

(By the way, did one of you really write "someone unconnected?"  Do you know who you're talking to?)

Pardon me for sounding a little "kids these days," but this sounds like a typically mousy response from a risk-averse generation, and, pardon me Jim, bland reinforcement from their (now) risk-averse parents (or grandparents?).  Some of the best times I had in the pep band  were the times where we almost got thrown out, where we did our job in the most hostile of environments.  You do your job, support the team, don't compromise your principles, and get out.  Honestly, this never would have been allowed to happen when I was in school, and the pep band rank-and-file of those days would've impeached your asses for being so weak.

But go ahead.  Do what you want.  Blindly follow authority.  Lead your safe little lives.  Glad to see you're learning something at Cornell.[/quote]

Well, there was a book from many years ago, yes from your grandparents generation, called "How to win friends and influence people". Maybe you've heard of it? Well this is not the way to do it. Why do we always have to beat up on each other? Would we really treat us the same in person? Wouldn't it be more useful to try and find out what the problems were and offer constructive criticism in a non-threatening way? Any time you just tell the other what a jerk they are/were for acting that way, you only make the other defensive and markedly decrease the possibility of them listening to you.

And, by the way, I'm not that risk adverse. After-all I do post here and always try and get my candy into the opposing rink.::scared::

[Scersk '97]

At the risk of sounding histrionic, perhaps I should counter-cite "Civil Disobedience" to your blandly corporatist tract?

I would suggest that winning friends and influencing people don't always go together, Jim.  I'm not looking to win friends.  I'm looking to reignite a muscular school spirit that seems to be waning in "kids these days."

Sometimes that involves something your tract suggests should be avoided:  criticism.   Sometimes it involves suggesting courses of action that, for whatever reason, have been discredited or forgotten.  Sometimes it involves a swift verbal uppercut instead of a gentle pat on the back.

Not to play our fight song because some rink functionary told me not to is a course of action antithetical to my very being.  It is a matter of pride; it is a matter of tradition.  It seems we come from very different generations indeed.

[Jim Hyla]

[quote Scersk '97]At the risk of sounding histrionic, perhaps I should counter-cite "Civil Disobedience" to your blandly corporatist tract?

I would suggest that winning friends and influencing people don't always go together, Jim.  I'm not looking to win friends.  I'm looking to reignite a muscular school spirit that seems to be waning in "kids these days."[/q]

I don't care if you win friends either; but influencing people might be useful if you want change. Civil disobedience does have to be confrontational, but it doesn't have to be angry. I'd suggest that when you are talking among friends, a constructive approach is often more useful.

[q]Sometimes that involves something your tract suggests should be avoided:  criticism.   Sometimes it involves suggesting courses of action that, for whatever reason, have been discredited or forgotten.  Sometimes it involves a swift verbal uppercut instead of a gentle pat on the back.[/q]

Reread my post. I never said not to criticize, but rather that constructive criticism often gets you further.

[q]It seems we come from very different generations indeed.[/quote]

Indeed that is true. I can't change time, but I'm very happy that most of your generation took the quiet change approach in the recent election, rather than the aggressive confrontational approach of the current man of my generation. (Please, I didn't mean to start a political thread drift, rather to show that all types exist in all generations.):-)

[Scersk '97]

[quote Jim Hyla]
I don't care if you win friends either; but influencing people might be useful if you want change. Civil disobedience does have to be confrontational, but it doesn't have to be angry. I'd suggest that when you are talking among friends, a constructive approach is often more useful.
[/quote]

Point well taken.  I have been known to employ that strategy (or is it a tactic?).  It just bugs me when "kids these days" don't seem to get angry about anything.  I worry about an anesthetized nation of groupthink, which...

[quote Jim Hyla]
Indeed that is true. I can't change time, but I'm very happy that most of your generation took the quiet change approach in the recent election, rather than the aggressive confrontational approach of the current man of my generation.[/quote]

... is what got us into that mess in the first place.  I also wonder how quiet and non-confrontational the remaining Republican moderates (or, gasp, liberals?) of the northeast found "my generation" this year?  And, regardless of how I felt about the most recent election, I'll continue to worry about the groupthink of the left as much as I worry about the groupthink of the right.

(And you would think that would send me to New Hampshire, right?  I worry about the groupthink of the libertarians too!)

Politics aside, I just want the kids to stand up for themselves, not because they should "fight the Man" but because someone muzzled them. That's just not right.  I'm not advocating that they should chant a string of obscenities or stand in front of old folks or eat babies or beat up those annoying little Colgate kids that used to throw tennis balls at us.  I'm saying that they should play the fight song at the appropriate time, as is our tradition.  Is there really something wrong with me for suggesting so?  Shouldn't they, pardon me, "Fight for Cornell?"  It disturbs me that they're so afraid of authority that they'll compromise what seems to me to be something kind of important.  "Who muzzled the band at Starr?"  It would seem that they did themselves.

Perhaps I'm just old and out of touch.

[Jim Hyla]

[quote Scersk '97][quote Jim Hyla]
I don't care if you win friends either; but influencing people might be useful if you want change. Civil disobedience does have to be confrontational, but it doesn't have to be angry. I'd suggest that when you are talking among friends, a constructive approach is often more useful.
[/quote]

Point well taken.  I have been known to employ that strategy (or is it a tactic?).  It just bugs me when "kids these days" don't seem to get angry about anything.  I worry about an anesthetized nation of groupthink, which...

[quote Jim Hyla]
Indeed that is true. I can't change time, but I'm very happy that most of your generation took the quiet change approach in the recent election, rather than the aggressive confrontational approach of the current man of my generation.[/quote]

... is what got us into that mess in the first place.  I also wonder how quiet and non-confrontational the remaining Republican moderates (or, gasp, liberals?) of the northeast found "my generation" this year?  And, regardless of how I felt about the most recent election, I'll continue to worry about the groupthink of the left as much as I worry about the groupthink of the right.

(And you would think that would send me to New Hampshire, right?  I worry about the groupthink of the libertarians too!)

Politics aside, I just want the kids to stand up for themselves, not because they should "fight the Man" but because someone muzzled them. That's just not right.  I'm not advocating that they should chant a string of obscenities or stand in front of old folks or eat babies or beat up those annoying little Colgate kids that used to throw tennis balls at us.  I'm saying that they should play the fight song at the appropriate time, as is our tradition.  Is there really something wrong with me for suggesting so?  Shouldn't they, pardon me, "Fight for Cornell?"  It disturbs me that they're so afraid of authority that they'll compromise what seems to me to be something kind of important.  "Who muzzled the band at Starr?"  It would seem that they did themselves.

Perhaps I'm just old and out of touch.[/quote]

Thanks for a nice way to finish this. Basically I agree with your wanting for everyone to stand up for what is right; but no, you're not old and out of touch. Keep fighting for what you believe.