Cornell 3 @ Brown 2 (OT 11/5) post-game thread
Posted by billhoward
Cornell 3 @ Brown 2 (OT 11/5) post-game thread
Posted by: billhoward (---.union01.nj.comcast.net)
Date: November 05, 2005 10:09PM
After four games, we have a 2.5 goals against average, give or take the three extra OT minutes. Good thing the scoring has ratcheted up a notch. Or half a notch. All three victories have been 3-2, discounting the two empty-netters.
It's not beyond possibility that Cornell could now be 1-3 or 1-2-1. Sheesh.
Cornell opponents seem to gear up to be a giant killer (this weekend) and forget about Colgate.
Losing to MSU in game 2, just getting by Yale, and barely getting by Brown (did we really outshoot Bruno 16-3 in the second with no goals to show for it?) is good in that it gives Schafer some ammunition to do the good cop, bad cop routine and tell the players how they need to work harder, harder, harder.
How many shorthanded goals did we give up all last year?
Are we missing Shane Hynes more than we think?
It's not beyond possibility that Cornell could now be 1-3 or 1-2-1. Sheesh.
Cornell opponents seem to gear up to be a giant killer (this weekend) and forget about Colgate.
Losing to MSU in game 2, just getting by Yale, and barely getting by Brown (did we really outshoot Bruno 16-3 in the second with no goals to show for it?) is good in that it gives Schafer some ammunition to do the good cop, bad cop routine and tell the players how they need to work harder, harder, harder.
How many shorthanded goals did we give up all last year?
Are we missing Shane Hynes more than we think?
Re: Cornell 3 @ Brown 2 (OT 11/5) post-game thread
Posted by: scoop85 (---.hvc.res.rr.com)
Date: November 05, 2005 10:12PM
While the close calls are of some concern, at least we outshot Brown by a fairly wide margin (although since I did not hear the game, I don't know if that stat is indicative of the play). Against Yale the shots were even, and the game certainly sounded about even.
Re: Cornell 3 @ Brown 2 (OT 11/5) post-game thread
Posted by: Trotsky (---.frdrmd.adelphia.net)
Date: November 05, 2005 10:16PM
I think the Brown game was even. The Red dominated at times, but overall Brown belonged in the same building, and could have won if a bounce had gone their way. So be it. Scoreboard.
I think people see an 80% winning percentage and expect 80% control of every game. That isn't how it works. Each team will control portions of each game. The dominant teams have that little extra in talent, drive, or damned cussedness which they apply in the right place at the right time. Anybody can score twice. Great teams score that game-winner, and to hell with excuses.
Look at the NCAA losses against UNH and Minny in '02, '03, and '05. Were we in those games? Yes. So what?
I think people see an 80% winning percentage and expect 80% control of every game. That isn't how it works. Each team will control portions of each game. The dominant teams have that little extra in talent, drive, or damned cussedness which they apply in the right place at the right time. Anybody can score twice. Great teams score that game-winner, and to hell with excuses.
Look at the NCAA losses against UNH and Minny in '02, '03, and '05. Were we in those games? Yes. So what?
Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 11/05/2005 10:23PM by Trotsky.
Re: Cornell 3 @ Brown 2 (OT 11/5) post-game thread
Posted by: Will (---.cable.mindspring.com)
Date: November 05, 2005 10:44PM
[Q]billhoward Wrote:
Are we missing Shane Hynes more than we think?
[/q]
Personally, I don't think the addition of Shane alone could have made the game results significantly better over these four games. I think it's just an early season thing. If we're still getting results like this frequently in February, then I'd worry.
Are we missing Shane Hynes more than we think?
[/q]
Personally, I don't think the addition of Shane alone could have made the game results significantly better over these four games. I think it's just an early season thing. If we're still getting results like this frequently in February, then I'd worry.
___________________________
Is next year here yet?
Is next year here yet?
Re: Cornell 3 @ Brown 2 (OT 11/5) post-game thread
Posted by: A-19 (---.hsd1.ma.comcast.net)
Date: November 05, 2005 10:53PM
a win's a win damnit
Re: Cornell 3 @ Brown 2 (OT 11/5) post-game thread
Posted by: Andy'07 (---.twcny.res.rr.com)
Date: November 05, 2005 11:10PM
I agree. The fact that a weekend sweep, if unconvincing, is a cause for concern is a sign that the team is strong. Obviously expectations are high, but we got 4 points, made the plays we needed to, and have to look towards harvard and dartmouth(both of which lost to Q, eek)
Re: Cornell 3 @ Brown 2 (OT 11/5) post-game thread
Posted by: Townie (---.twcny.res.rr.com)
Date: November 05, 2005 11:24PM
[Q]billhoward Wrote:
Are we missing Shane Hynes more than we think?
[/q]
I thought the same thing after the MSU games. But I'm also wondering if we're missing Cook & Downs more.
Are we missing Shane Hynes more than we think?
[/q]
I thought the same thing after the MSU games. But I'm also wondering if we're missing Cook & Downs more.
Re: Cornell 3 @ Brown 2 (OT 11/5) post-game thread
Posted by: A-19 (---.hsd1.ma.comcast.net)
Date: November 05, 2005 11:35PM
yeah i feel like our defense really just quit on us
mckee not as strong on the breakaways this year also
obyrne is significantly improved, and pegoraro, carefoot and scott hussled their asses off tonight
our freshmen take too many penalties, and in general every game is like 3 mins of 5x5. they call every little contact now, and it's irritating. also irritating refs dont have names on their backs.
i was impressed with barlow- very flashy player with good moves
oh, and the non-goal off the post looked very much in. after it bounced out of the inside of the post, it landed right on a cornell stick, but they blew the play dead bc they called it a goal. had they not stopped, it's likely it would have been an actual goal too
and when did brown decide to have fans? i mean, after last night's amazing performance i can see why they decided to show up again. conspicuously absent were the 3 little juvey hall kids with their plastic horns.
-mike '04
mckee not as strong on the breakaways this year also
obyrne is significantly improved, and pegoraro, carefoot and scott hussled their asses off tonight
our freshmen take too many penalties, and in general every game is like 3 mins of 5x5. they call every little contact now, and it's irritating. also irritating refs dont have names on their backs.
i was impressed with barlow- very flashy player with good moves
oh, and the non-goal off the post looked very much in. after it bounced out of the inside of the post, it landed right on a cornell stick, but they blew the play dead bc they called it a goal. had they not stopped, it's likely it would have been an actual goal too
and when did brown decide to have fans? i mean, after last night's amazing performance i can see why they decided to show up again. conspicuously absent were the 3 little juvey hall kids with their plastic horns.
-mike '04
Re: Cornell 3 @ Brown 2 (OT 11/5) post-game thread
Posted by: Anne 85 (---.proxy.aol.com)
Date: November 05, 2005 11:53PM
Well, tonight at least, the defense was missing a few cogs. Pokaluk was out due to the DQ, and Gleed was apparently a last-minute scratch. So, we were skating 5 D-men: O'Byrne, Glover, Krantz, Seminoff, and Davenport. I think we can all agree that's not a dream-team line-up -- at least not this early in the season.
Given that Sasha is on the top PP unit, and we were also missing Chris Abbott, a go-to faceoff guy, the offense was also a little off-balance. I'd say that we did what we had to this weekend and came out with the wins, and it's much too soon to panic.
Oh, and regarding the Brown "fans" -- they were bribed to attend. They were given free pizza from 6-7 before our game, and free round-trip airline tickets were given to 2 lucky students who registered before the game and were still there during the second intermission to claim their prizes. Despite all of this, the student side of the rink wasn't full and there was no band.
Given that Sasha is on the top PP unit, and we were also missing Chris Abbott, a go-to faceoff guy, the offense was also a little off-balance. I'd say that we did what we had to this weekend and came out with the wins, and it's much too soon to panic.
Oh, and regarding the Brown "fans" -- they were bribed to attend. They were given free pizza from 6-7 before our game, and free round-trip airline tickets were given to 2 lucky students who registered before the game and were still there during the second intermission to claim their prizes. Despite all of this, the student side of the rink wasn't full and there was no band.
Re: Cornell 3 @ Brown 2 (OT 11/5) post-game thread
Posted by: A-19 (---.hsd1.ma.comcast.net)
Date: November 05, 2005 11:57PM
i was wondering what the 40 pizza boxes were there for
Re: Cornell 3 @ Brown 2 (OT 11/5) post-game thread
Posted by: Will (---.cable.mindspring.com)
Date: November 06, 2005 12:04AM
[Q]Anne 85 Wrote:
Oh, and regarding the Brown "fans" -- they were bribed to attend. They were given free pizza from 6-7 before our game, and free round-trip airline tickets were given to 2 lucky students who registered before the game and were still there during the second intermission to claim their prizes. Despite all of this, the student side of the rink wasn't full and there was no band.[/q]
They didn't throw the pizza at the Cornell fans and end up hitting their fellow Brown "fans", did they?
Oh, and regarding the Brown "fans" -- they were bribed to attend. They were given free pizza from 6-7 before our game, and free round-trip airline tickets were given to 2 lucky students who registered before the game and were still there during the second intermission to claim their prizes. Despite all of this, the student side of the rink wasn't full and there was no band.[/q]
They didn't throw the pizza at the Cornell fans and end up hitting their fellow Brown "fans", did they?
___________________________
Is next year here yet?
Is next year here yet?
Re: Cornell 3 @ Brown 2 (OT 11/5) post-game thread
Posted by: Al DeFlorio (---.hsd1.ma.comcast.net)
Date: November 06, 2005 12:07AM
[Q]Anne 85 Wrote:
Well, tonight at least, the defense was missing a few cogs. Pokaluk was out due to the DQ, and Gleed was apparently a last-minute scratch. So, we were skating 5 D-men: O'Byrne, Glover, Krantz, Seminoff, and Davenport. I think we can all agree that's not a dream-team line-up -- at least not this early in the season.
Given that Sasha is on the top PP unit, and we were also missing Chris Abbott, a go-to faceoff guy, the offense was also a little off-balance. I'd say that we did what we had to this weekend and came out with the wins, and it's much too soon to panic.
[/q]
Did anyone notice if Kindret ever made it onto the ice? There seemed to be a lot of shifting going on with the lines tonight to compensate for having only three centers. Scott filled in occasionally at center, IIRC.
Well, tonight at least, the defense was missing a few cogs. Pokaluk was out due to the DQ, and Gleed was apparently a last-minute scratch. So, we were skating 5 D-men: O'Byrne, Glover, Krantz, Seminoff, and Davenport. I think we can all agree that's not a dream-team line-up -- at least not this early in the season.
Given that Sasha is on the top PP unit, and we were also missing Chris Abbott, a go-to faceoff guy, the offense was also a little off-balance. I'd say that we did what we had to this weekend and came out with the wins, and it's much too soon to panic.
[/q]
Did anyone notice if Kindret ever made it onto the ice? There seemed to be a lot of shifting going on with the lines tonight to compensate for having only three centers. Scott filled in occasionally at center, IIRC.
___________________________
Al DeFlorio '65
Al DeFlorio '65
Re: Cornell 3 @ Brown 2 (OT 11/5) post-game thread
Posted by: bentley (12.154.162.---)
Date: November 06, 2005 12:27AM
They did throw a fish after the first goal
Re: Cornell 3 @ Brown 2 (OT 11/5) post-game thread
Posted by: Jeff Hopkins '82 (---.airproducts.com)
Date: November 06, 2005 12:47AM
Schafer said a while back it takes some time for "the system" to gel. I give him credit for knowing what he's doing. Hang onto your towel (don't panic).
And on the subject of freshemen taking penalties, see: Krantz, Doug or O'Byrne, Ryan. It happens every year and they get better by March. It's a part of the learning and maturing process.
And on the subject of freshemen taking penalties, see: Krantz, Doug or O'Byrne, Ryan. It happens every year and they get better by March. It's a part of the learning and maturing process.
Re: Cornell 3 @ Brown 2 (OT 11/5) post-game thread
Posted by: Liz '05 (---.pn.at.cox.net)
Date: November 06, 2005 10:57AM
[Q]Jeff Hopkins '82 Wrote:
Hang onto your towel (don't panic).
[/q]
Hang onto your towel (don't panic).
[/q]
Re: Cornell 3 @ Brown 2 (OT 11/5) post-game thread
Posted by: Liz '05 (---.pn.at.cox.net)
Date: November 06, 2005 11:00AM
[Q]A-19 Wrote:
and when did brown decide to have fans? i mean, after last night's amazing performance i can see why they decided to show up again. conspicuously absent were the 3 little juvey hall kids with their plastic horns.
-mike '04[/q]
I wonder if there are more fans because this game is not over Christmas break, as it has been over the past few years. And I can't decide whether the missing kids is a good or bad thing - they were fun to make fun of.
and when did brown decide to have fans? i mean, after last night's amazing performance i can see why they decided to show up again. conspicuously absent were the 3 little juvey hall kids with their plastic horns.
-mike '04[/q]
I wonder if there are more fans because this game is not over Christmas break, as it has been over the past few years. And I can't decide whether the missing kids is a good or bad thing - they were fun to make fun of.
Re: Cornell 3 @ Brown 2 (OT 11/5) post-game thread
Posted by: redhair34 (---.resnet.cornell.edu)
Date: November 06, 2005 11:10AM
[Q]A-19 Wrote:
oh, and the non-goal off the post looked very much in. after it bounced out of the inside of the post, it landed right on a cornell stick, but they blew the play dead bc they called it a goal. had they not stopped, it's likely it would have been an actual goal too
[/q]
On the radio Jason was very insistant that it should have been a goal and that Brown got away with one.
oh, and the non-goal off the post looked very much in. after it bounced out of the inside of the post, it landed right on a cornell stick, but they blew the play dead bc they called it a goal. had they not stopped, it's likely it would have been an actual goal too
[/q]
On the radio Jason was very insistant that it should have been a goal and that Brown got away with one.
Re: Cornell 3 @ Brown 2 (OT 11/5) post-game thread
Posted by: redhair34 (---.resnet.cornell.edu)
Date: November 06, 2005 12:25PM
[Q]Al DeFlorio Wrote:
Anne 85 Wrote:
Well, tonight at least, the defense was missing a few cogs. Pokaluk was out due to the DQ, and Gleed was apparently a last-minute scratch. So, we were skating 5 D-men: O'Byrne, Glover, Krantz, Seminoff, and Davenport. I think we can all agree that's not a dream-team line-up -- at least not this early in the season.
Given that Sasha is on the top PP unit, and we were also missing Chris Abbott, a go-to faceoff guy, the offense was also a little off-balance. I'd say that we did what we had to this weekend and came out with the wins, and it's much too soon to panic.
[/Q]
Did anyone notice if Kindret ever made it onto the ice? There seemed to be a lot of shifting going on with the lines tonight to compensate for having only three centers. Scott filled in occasionally at center, IIRC.[/q]
I believe I heard his name once on the broadcast, but I'm sure those that were there would have a better idea.
Re: Cornell 3 @ Brown 2 (OT 11/5) post-game thread
Posted by: billhoward (---.union01.nj.comcast.net)
Date: November 06, 2005 12:58PM
Kindret was in the box score lineup. [www.collegehockeystats.net]
Attendance was listed as 1865 (Meehan capacity if 3100 I believe) vs. around 1100 for Colgate on Friday.
Attendance was listed as 1865 (Meehan capacity if 3100 I believe) vs. around 1100 for Colgate on Friday.
Re: Cornell 3 @ Brown 2 (OT 11/5) post-game thread
Posted by: oceanst41 (---.twcny.res.rr.com)
Date: November 06, 2005 01:05PM
I do remember on the radio hearing he nearly scored a goal in the first, and then Jason went on to talk about McCutcheon scoring his first ever against Yale.
Re: Cornell 3 @ Brown 2 (OT 11/5) post-game thread
Posted by: Al DeFlorio (---.hsd1.ma.comcast.net)
Date: November 06, 2005 01:09PM
[Q]billhoward Wrote:
Kindret was in the box score lineup.
[/q]
He dressed for the game, so he's in the lineup. No Gametracker for the Brown game, so can't check that.
Anyone know what's up with Gleed missing the game?
Kindret was in the box score lineup.
[/q]
He dressed for the game, so he's in the lineup. No Gametracker for the Brown game, so can't check that.
Anyone know what's up with Gleed missing the game?
___________________________
Al DeFlorio '65
Al DeFlorio '65
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/06/2005 01:09PM by Al DeFlorio.
Re: Cornell 3 @ Brown 2 (OT 11/5) post-game thread
Posted by: redhair34 (---.resnet.cornell.edu)
Date: November 06, 2005 01:16PM
[Q]Al DeFlorio Wrote:
billhoward Wrote:
Kindret was in the box score lineup.
[/Q]
He dressed for the game, so he's in the lineup. No Gametracker for the Brown game, so can't check that.
Anyone know what's up with Gleed missing the game?[/q]
Jason said he was "banged up" during the Yale game and we "might not see much of him tonight." It turned out that we didn't see him last night. Also there was no mention of Chris Abbott just that he was injured. I know we've discussed this ad nauseam about player injury privacy but I think it is a good idea from a strategy standpoint. Not only does it keep our opponents guessing who will be in the line up, but in a game like hockey knowledge of a player's recovering injury could give the opposition dangerous ammunition on the ice.
Re: Cornell 3 @ Brown 2 (OT 11/5) post-game thread
Posted by: calgARI '07 (---.twcny.res.rr.com)
Date: November 06, 2005 02:48PM
Just got back a few hours ago. I thought Cornell played a lot better against Brown than they did against Yale. These guys reallyl really battled. Huge character win for them. With Pokuluk out and Gleed hurt, Cornell only dressed five defensemen, including Davenport who had never played a college game before. O'Byrne and Glover both played over 35 minutes and were extraordinary. Seminoff really stepped up his game in this obviously dire situation. Krantz was BRUTAL. The entire complexion of the game was changed when he handed the puck over leading to the short handed breakaway that tied the game. Brown was a step behind up until that point and that goal gave them a ton of confidence. Krantz did not see another shift on the powerplay that night and if Pokuluk and Gleed were dressed, I don't think he would have seen another shift. I'll be interested to see if he stays in the lineup next weekend. Kindret dressed in Chris Abbott's place but he only played two shifts the entire game both of which came in the first period. Carefoot was far and away Cornell's best player this weekend, creating offense every time he was out there. Was just amazing all over the ice. Sawada and Cam Abbott also really stood out to me in a positive way. A great weekend for Cornell where they easily could have dropped both games. They found a way to win both night and in the situation they were in, that is enormous. There is no doubt in my mind that they are vastly superior to both teams and I think we will see that when they come to Lynah later in the season. When you're only playing 13 or 14 players on a Saturday night on the road, you are happy to get the win regardless of who they play.
Re: Cornell 3 @ Brown 2 (OT 11/5) post-game thread
Posted by: Trotsky (---.frdrmd.adelphia.net)
Date: November 06, 2005 02:59PM
Nice wrap, Ari. Was McKee really that soft early in each game, or was it just a matter of right place, right time, for the scorers?
Re: Cornell 3 @ Brown 2 (OT 11/5) post-game thread
Posted by: calgARI '07 (---.twcny.res.rr.com)
Date: November 06, 2005 03:10PM
[Q]Trotsky Wrote:
Nice wrap, Ari. Was McKee really that soft early in each game, or was it just a matter of right place, right time, for the scorers?[/q]
I don't think McKee played poorly, but he definitely isn't at his highest level. He hasn't a come close to stopping either breakaway (both shorthanded) he has faced this year. The D has been pretty bad so far this year, missing assignments with regularity. Last night, the reasoning for that was obvious and all things considered weren't bad at all, but they struggled badly against Yale I thought. I have concerns about the blueline this year not quite as much about McKee. It is just a different type of unit that isn't quite as mobile as last year's and right now are not making the best decisions. I have been pretty happy with Pokuluk and O'Byrne and I think they will only get better. Glover has been decent too. It's Gleed and Krantz who are really concerning me. The former needs to raise the level of his game substantially while the latter has struggled as much as he did in the first half of last season. I'd honestly like to see Salmela given a game next weekend to send him a message.
Nice wrap, Ari. Was McKee really that soft early in each game, or was it just a matter of right place, right time, for the scorers?[/q]
I don't think McKee played poorly, but he definitely isn't at his highest level. He hasn't a come close to stopping either breakaway (both shorthanded) he has faced this year. The D has been pretty bad so far this year, missing assignments with regularity. Last night, the reasoning for that was obvious and all things considered weren't bad at all, but they struggled badly against Yale I thought. I have concerns about the blueline this year not quite as much about McKee. It is just a different type of unit that isn't quite as mobile as last year's and right now are not making the best decisions. I have been pretty happy with Pokuluk and O'Byrne and I think they will only get better. Glover has been decent too. It's Gleed and Krantz who are really concerning me. The former needs to raise the level of his game substantially while the latter has struggled as much as he did in the first half of last season. I'd honestly like to see Salmela given a game next weekend to send him a message.
Re: Cornell 3 @ Brown 2 (OT 11/5) post-game thread
Posted by: DeltaOne81 (---.adsl.snet.net)
Date: November 06, 2005 03:41PM
[Q]calgARI '07 Wrote:
O'Byrne... [was] extraordinary.[/q]
Not that I disagree, what I've seen of O'B has been pretty impressive so far, some nice defensive plays - not without some downside, but very promising. Still, I'm saving that quote
O'Byrne... [was] extraordinary.[/q]
Not that I disagree, what I've seen of O'B has been pretty impressive so far, some nice defensive plays - not without some downside, but very promising. Still, I'm saving that quote
Re: Cornell 3 @ Brown 2 (OT 11/5) post-game thread
Posted by: calgARI '07 (---.twcny.res.rr.com)
Date: November 06, 2005 04:24PM
I just got a chance to read the whole thread and I was surprised to see that Hynes wasn't definitively missed maybe prior to the weekend. I don't see much point in talking about it since he's not here, but if there was ever any thought that Hynes was replacable and not an integral player to this team, then whoever thought that was flat out wrong. You do not replace a Shane Hynes. His ability along the boards and his dominant physical style was an enormous part of last year's team. I think Sawada has raised his level of play substantially but obviously Cornell's top-to-bottom size and physical ability isn't anywhere near what it would have been with Hynes.
Do I miss Hynes? Of course, but he's gone and the personnel that they have has to get it done and I have confidence that they can and will. Cornell found a way to win this weekend and that is very important. This is a good team, but they aren't just going to walk all over every team, especially when you have three defensemen and ten forwards. As far as physical play is concerned, I haven't seen a Schafer team physically beaten the way Yale beat them on Friday night. To think that Hynes was not an enormous loss seems to be pretty naive.
Do I miss Hynes? Of course, but he's gone and the personnel that they have has to get it done and I have confidence that they can and will. Cornell found a way to win this weekend and that is very important. This is a good team, but they aren't just going to walk all over every team, especially when you have three defensemen and ten forwards. As far as physical play is concerned, I haven't seen a Schafer team physically beaten the way Yale beat them on Friday night. To think that Hynes was not an enormous loss seems to be pretty naive.
Re: Cornell 3 @ Brown 2 (OT 11/5) post-game thread
Posted by: calgARI '07 (---.twcny.res.rr.com)
Date: November 06, 2005 04:26PM
Also, I forgot to say that I think Brown is far and away the worst ECACHL rink to watch a game, although I have not since one at Quinnipiac yet. Boring rink, no fans, no atmosphere whatsoever.
Re: Cornell 3 @ Brown 2 (OT 11/5) post-game thread
Posted by: Trotsky (---.frdrmd.adelphia.net)
Date: November 06, 2005 04:38PM
Meehan has that concrete-overturned-toilet-Kingdome feel. It's not bad when it's full, but it sucks when it's empty. It hosted NCAA finals in the mid 70s... 
\
The worst barn under the worst conditiiosn is Thompson when it's empty, becase it is frikkin' FREEZING. The worst sight lines are Ingalls. I have no idea why it won architecture awards; it's the worst-designed sports facility I've ever been in.
\
The worst barn under the worst conditiiosn is Thompson when it's empty, becase it is frikkin' FREEZING. The worst sight lines are Ingalls. I have no idea why it won architecture awards; it's the worst-designed sports facility I've ever been in.
Re: Cornell 3 @ Brown 2 (OT 11/5) post-game thread
Posted by: KP '06 (---.twcny.res.rr.com)
Date: November 06, 2005 04:50PM
[Q]calgARI '07 Wrote:
Also, I forgot to say that I think Brown is far and away the worst ECACHL rink to watch a game, although I have not since one at Quinnipiac yet. Boring rink, no fans, no atmosphere whatsoever. [/q]
Not to mention that, despite the Brown band not being there, the rink staff decided to enforce the NCAA rule about visiting bands only having 25 instruments. Yale also did this, but at least we knew it was coming -- they are usually dicks, while I've never seen Brown ever have a problem with 40-member bands. The end result was that 15 bandies made the trip but didn't get to play all weekend, while the remaining 25 traded time with Brown's talentless DJ.
I was half expecting Freebird by the 2nd period break.
Also, I forgot to say that I think Brown is far and away the worst ECACHL rink to watch a game, although I have not since one at Quinnipiac yet. Boring rink, no fans, no atmosphere whatsoever. [/q]
Not to mention that, despite the Brown band not being there, the rink staff decided to enforce the NCAA rule about visiting bands only having 25 instruments. Yale also did this, but at least we knew it was coming -- they are usually dicks, while I've never seen Brown ever have a problem with 40-member bands. The end result was that 15 bandies made the trip but didn't get to play all weekend, while the remaining 25 traded time with Brown's talentless DJ.
I was half expecting Freebird by the 2nd period break.
Re: Cornell 3 @ Brown 2 (OT 11/5) post-game thread
Posted by: DeltaOne81 (---.adsl.snet.net)
Date: November 06, 2005 05:01PM
[Q]calgARI '07 Wrote:
Also, I forgot to say that I think Brown is far and away the worst ECACHL rink to watch a game, although I have not since one at Quinnipiac yet. Boring rink, no fans, no atmosphere whatsoever. [/q]
And you probably won't. Unless we play them next year before January and Ingalls isn't free.. or the construction is significantly delayed. but I'm sure you can take a public skate there anytime
Ingalls has great acoustics, but the sightlines vary depending where you are. I was coming out of the bathrooms in the 2nd intermission of Friday and I heard a band loud and clear - loud enough to bother my ears a little. I figured it was Yale's, it wasn't.
Also, I forgot to say that I think Brown is far and away the worst ECACHL rink to watch a game, although I have not since one at Quinnipiac yet. Boring rink, no fans, no atmosphere whatsoever. [/q]
And you probably won't. Unless we play them next year before January and Ingalls isn't free.. or the construction is significantly delayed. but I'm sure you can take a public skate there anytime
Ingalls has great acoustics, but the sightlines vary depending where you are. I was coming out of the bathrooms in the 2nd intermission of Friday and I heard a band loud and clear - loud enough to bother my ears a little. I figured it was Yale's, it wasn't.
Re: Cornell 3 @ Brown 2 (OT 11/5) post-game thread
Posted by: billhoward (---.union01.nj.comcast.net)
Date: November 06, 2005 05:01PM
[Q]Trotsky Wrote: Meehan has that concrete-overturned-toilet-Kingdome feel. It's not bad when it's full, but it sucks when it's empty. It hosted NCAA finals in the mid 70s...
The worst barn under the worst conditiiosn is Thompson when it's empty, becase it is frikkin' FREEZING. The worst sight lines are Ingalls. I have no idea why it won architecture awards; it's the worst-designed sports facility I've ever been in.[/q]Ingalls won architectural design praise because it looks good when you do a walkthrough of the empty rink. At the highest level, isn't architecture about holding spitting contests with other people's money?
The worst barn under the worst conditiiosn is Thompson when it's empty, becase it is frikkin' FREEZING. The worst sight lines are Ingalls. I have no idea why it won architecture awards; it's the worst-designed sports facility I've ever been in.[/q]Ingalls won architectural design praise because it looks good when you do a walkthrough of the empty rink. At the highest level, isn't architecture about holding spitting contests with other people's money?
Re: Cornell 3 @ Brown 2 (OT 11/5) post-game thread
Posted by: Shorts (---.ri.ri.cox.net)
Date: November 06, 2005 05:19PM
I read the NCAA hockey rulebook [www.ncaa.org], and couldn't find anything about the number of visiting band members (although just about all of the Championships rule books limit the number of band members to 25 on each side). I tried looking through the various general NCAA rules, but there are just too many to look through (although I did find the section that talks about the rules for high-school age prospective athletes playing in rent-a-bands at college games).
Maybe someone more familiar with the topic can inform the rest of us.
Maybe someone more familiar with the topic can inform the rest of us.
Re: Cornell 3 @ Brown 2 (OT 11/5) post-game thread
Posted by: Tub(a) (---.hsd1.pa.comcast.net)
Date: November 06, 2005 05:35PM
[Q]Shorts Wrote:
I read the NCAA hockey rulebook , and couldn't find anything about the number of visiting band members (although just about all of the Championships rule books limit the number of band members to 25 on each side). I tried looking through the various general NCAA rules, but there are just too many to look through (although I did find the section that talks about the rules for high-school age prospective athletes playing in rent-a-bands at college games).
Maybe someone more familiar with the topic can inform the rest of us. [/q]
I had the same success looking in the same things. The NCAA would probably defer to local policy, but a policy that allows a home band to have more players than an away band when the away band purchases the additional tickets seems unfair at best.
I read the NCAA hockey rulebook , and couldn't find anything about the number of visiting band members (although just about all of the Championships rule books limit the number of band members to 25 on each side). I tried looking through the various general NCAA rules, but there are just too many to look through (although I did find the section that talks about the rules for high-school age prospective athletes playing in rent-a-bands at college games).
Maybe someone more familiar with the topic can inform the rest of us. [/q]
I had the same success looking in the same things. The NCAA would probably defer to local policy, but a policy that allows a home band to have more players than an away band when the away band purchases the additional tickets seems unfair at best.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/06/2005 05:35PM by Tub(a).
Re: Cornell 3 @ Brown 2 (OT 11/5) post-game thread
Posted by: billhoward (---.union01.nj.comcast.net)
Date: November 06, 2005 05:40PM
There has to be some practical limit on the size of the band. Otherwise you could see a 240-person Big Red Dismounted Marching, Too Full of Pep Band march into Lynah East next Friday.
College need to offer more instruction in real life issues. Coming face to face with Mickey Mouse rules is a start.
College need to offer more instruction in real life issues. Coming face to face with Mickey Mouse rules is a start.
Re: Cornell 3 @ Brown 2 (OT 11/5) post-game thread
Posted by: Lauren '06 (---.twcny.res.rr.com)
Date: November 06, 2005 05:41PM
[Q]Tub(a) Wrote:
Shorts Wrote:
I read the NCAA hockey rulebook , and couldn't find anything about the number of visiting band members (although just about all of the Championships rule books limit the number of band members to 25 on each side). I tried looking through the various general NCAA rules, but there are just too many to look through (although I did find the section that talks about the rules for high-school age prospective athletes playing in rent-a-bands at college games).
Maybe someone more familiar with the topic can inform the rest of us. [/Q]
I had the same success looking in the same things. The NCAA would probably defer to local policy, but a policy that allows a home band to have more players than an away band when the away band purchases the additional tickets seems unfair at best. [/q]
What ticks me off the most is that the Brown rink manager, who was, all told, a nice guy (unlike the usher on the home side of the stands, who I sincerely hope has nightmares about seas of fans shouting "RED" during the anthem every single night for the rest of his ugly little life), seemed to indicate that they were enforcing the 25-person maximum rule on us because we were good, and because they didn't have a band there, and didn't want us to dominate the entire rink. I suppose he may have been kidding as well as being complimentary, but the sentiment is still there.
Now, I like the Brown band and their leadership and I understand they had some scheduling conflicts this weekend, but holy crap. If the rule is one the schools can choose to follow or not to as they see fit, wielding it on purpose to blue-ball a good band accompanying a good fan base just so their school doesn't get upstaged is pretty ugly.
Re: Cornell 3 @ Brown 2 (OT 11/5) post-game thread
Posted by: Tub(a) (---.hsd1.pa.comcast.net)
Date: November 06, 2005 05:43PM
[Q]billhoward Wrote:
There has to be some practical limit on the size of the band. Otherwise you could see a 240-person Big Red Dismounted Marching, Too Full of Pep Band march into Lynah East next Friday.
College need to offer more instruction in real life issues. Coming face to face with Mickey Mouse rules is a start. [/q]
Since the Marching Band is an entirely different organization, that's not too much of a concern.
If they want to restrict the opposing band that's fine, but the same restrictions should be applied to the home band.
There has to be some practical limit on the size of the band. Otherwise you could see a 240-person Big Red Dismounted Marching, Too Full of Pep Band march into Lynah East next Friday.
College need to offer more instruction in real life issues. Coming face to face with Mickey Mouse rules is a start. [/q]
Since the Marching Band is an entirely different organization, that's not too much of a concern.
If they want to restrict the opposing band that's fine, but the same restrictions should be applied to the home band.
Re: Cornell 3 @ Brown 2 (OT 11/5) post-game thread
Posted by: Lauren '06 (---.twcny.res.rr.com)
Date: November 06, 2005 05:45PM
[Q]Tub(a) Wrote:
billhoward Wrote:
There has to be some practical limit on the size of the band. Otherwise you could see a 240-person Big Red Dismounted Marching, Too Full of Pep Band march into Lynah East next Friday.
College need to offer more instruction in real life issues. Coming face to face with Mickey Mouse rules is a start. [/Q]
Since the Marching Band is an entirely different organization, that's not too much of a concern.
If they want to restrict the opposing band that's fine, but the same restrictions should be applied to the home band.[/q]
You could pervert that to mean that if the school has no home band (SLU) or if the home band decides not to go to that game (Princeton), the away band gets turned away because it's unfair to the home team.
Re: Cornell 3 @ Brown 2 (OT 11/5) post-game thread
Posted by: Tub(a) (---.hsd1.pa.comcast.net)
Date: November 06, 2005 05:49PM
[Q]Section A Banshee Wrote:
Tub(a) Wrote:
billhoward Wrote:
There has to be some practical limit on the size of the band. Otherwise you could see a 240-person Big Red Dismounted Marching, Too Full of Pep Band march into Lynah East next Friday.
College need to offer more instruction in real life issues. Coming face to face with Mickey Mouse rules is a start. [/Q]
Since the Marching Band is an entirely different organization, that's not too much of a concern.
If they want to restrict the opposing band that's fine, but the same restrictions should be applied to the home band.[/Q]
You could pervert that to mean that if the school has no home band (SLU) or if the home band decides not to go to that game (Princeton), the away band gets turned away because it's unfair to the home team.[/q]
I had that same thought as soon as I posted, but since they are required to give 25 tickets to the opposing band by the same regulations that may not exist anymore, they couldn't go below 25.
I really wish I could remember where I read the 25 person band regulations. It was probably in the tournament handbooks. Not having it in the ice hockey rule book unfortunately leaves a lot to the operators of the rink. The only recourse may be through the NCAA, which would open a can of worms.
I think we should probably have this conversation on AIM instead of boring the eLynah faithful
Re: Cornell 3 @ Brown 2 (OT 11/5) post-game thread
Posted by: JimHyla (---.twcny.res.rr.com)
Date: November 06, 2005 06:26PM
[Q]Tub(a) Wrote:I think we should probably have this conversation on AIM instead of boring the eLynah faithful [/q]No, as evidenced by the response to Minny last year, we want to support you and what better way than to understand your problems.
Re: Cornell 3 @ Brown 2 (OT 11/5) post-game thread
Posted by: Lauren '06 (---.twcny.res.rr.com)
Date: November 06, 2005 06:35PM
[Q]JimHyla Wrote:
Tub(a) Wrote:I think we should probably have this conversation on AIM instead of boring the eLynah faithful [/Q]
No, as evidenced by the response to Minny last year, we want to support you and what better way than to understand your problems.[/q]
Thank you.
I'll just end with something that ex-officio band advisor Tom LaFalce said in October, and that was "Just because you've effectively gotten away with something forever doesn't mean you have a right to." I think that might be true here as more and more rinks decide to enforce the 25-member band rule. Most bands don't have more than 25 people willing to travel and so don't run into a problem, and I know Clarkson's band is very careful not to travel with more than 25 instruments (whether the Lynah rink staff actually limited them at the door is something I don't know, but I doubt it), so maybe we have been getting away with something here. But, we'll see. As far as I'm concerned, if SHORTS can't find something in a policy, it must not exist.
Re: Cornell 3 @ Brown 2 (OT 11/5) post-game thread
Posted by: Jordan 04 (---.nyc.res.rr.com)
Date: November 06, 2005 06:39PM
[Q]KP '06 Wrote:
calgARI '07 Wrote:
Also, I forgot to say that I think Brown is far and away the worst ECACHL rink to watch a game, although I have not since one at Quinnipiac yet. Boring rink, no fans, no atmosphere whatsoever. [/Q]
Not to mention that, despite the Brown band not being there, the rink staff decided to enforce the NCAA rule about visiting bands only having 25 instruments. Yale also did this, but at least we knew it was coming -- they are usually dicks, while I've never seen Brown ever have a problem with 40-member bands. The end result was that 15 bandies made the trip but didn't get to play all weekend, while the remaining 25 traded time with Brown's talentless DJ.
I was half expecting Freebird by the 2nd period break.[/q]
I certainly hope this isn't saying that the same 15 kids sat out both games.
Re: Cornell 3 @ Brown 2 (OT 11/5) post-game thread
Posted by: KP '06 (---.twcny.res.rr.com)
Date: November 06, 2005 06:45PM
[Q]Section A Banshee Wrote:
As far as I'm concerned, if SHORTS can't find something in a policy, it must not exist.[/q]
Someone during the Brown game: "Hey Shorts, do you have a copy of the NCAA rule book on your PDA?"
Shorts: "Not with me ..."
As far as I'm concerned, if SHORTS can't find something in a policy, it must not exist.[/q]
Someone during the Brown game: "Hey Shorts, do you have a copy of the NCAA rule book on your PDA?"
Shorts: "Not with me ..."
Re: Cornell 3 @ Brown 2 (OT 11/5) post-game thread
Posted by: billhoward (---.union01.nj.comcast.net)
Date: November 06, 2005 06:52PM
You're not boring the civilians talking about the band's woes.
Yeah, if you were limited to as many band members in the arena as the home team's band, the other teams would probably love that.
Could the extra 15 excluded Cornell players form a raggedy Brown band instead and play half-heartedly? It would still be better than no one supporting Brown at all and probably better than the Brown band were it there. All it would cost you is to buy a T-shirt in a color you'd never wear otherwise. Too bad there's no part of the anthem that mentions brown.
Cornell can't gripe too much about being messed with in opposing team's rinks. Ned Harkness was said to be ruthless in making the visiting team locker room as small, dirty, overheated, and generally as uncomfortable as he could get away with.
Yeah, if you were limited to as many band members in the arena as the home team's band, the other teams would probably love that.
Could the extra 15 excluded Cornell players form a raggedy Brown band instead and play half-heartedly? It would still be better than no one supporting Brown at all and probably better than the Brown band were it there. All it would cost you is to buy a T-shirt in a color you'd never wear otherwise. Too bad there's no part of the anthem that mentions brown.
Cornell can't gripe too much about being messed with in opposing team's rinks. Ned Harkness was said to be ruthless in making the visiting team locker room as small, dirty, overheated, and generally as uncomfortable as he could get away with.
Re: Cornell 3 @ Brown 2 (OT 11/5) post-game thread
Posted by: David Harding (70.131.164.---)
Date: November 06, 2005 10:04PM
[q]I think we should probably have this conversation on AIM instead of boring the eLynah faithful [] [/q} I'll agree with the others. This is part of the hockey culture. We appreciate the insider's view.
] [/q} I'll agree with the others. This is part of the hockey culture. We appreciate the insider's view.
Re: Cornell 3 @ Brown 2 (OT 11/5) post-game thread
Posted by: Lauren '06 (---.twcny.res.rr.com)
Date: November 06, 2005 10:14PM
[Q]Jordan 04 Wrote:
KP '06 Wrote:
calgARI '07 Wrote:
Also, I forgot to say that I think Brown is far and away the worst ECACHL rink to watch a game, although I have not since one at Quinnipiac yet. Boring rink, no fans, no atmosphere whatsoever. [/Q]
Not to mention that, despite the Brown band not being there, the rink staff decided to enforce the NCAA rule about visiting bands only having 25 instruments. Yale also did this, but at least we knew it was coming -- they are usually dicks, while I've never seen Brown ever have a problem with 40-member bands. The end result was that 15 bandies made the trip but didn't get to play all weekend, while the remaining 25 traded time with Brown's talentless DJ.
I was half expecting Freebird by the 2nd period break.[/Q]
I certainly hope this isn't saying that the same 15 kids sat out both games.[/q]
Unfortunately yeah, it is. Both nights I asked for volunteers first, and for the most part the same five-six people volunteered to sit out, either alumni or former woodwinds learning to play brass instruments. After that I asked the band how many flutes and clarinets were absolutely necessary in a band of 25, and the overwhelming response I got was "none," so I went from there. It's unfortunate and I'm thankful to those people for being good sports about not being able to play all weekend, but sometimes when you're in a bind you've got to put your best band forward. It's like coaching youth soccer and benching the same kids week after week. It makes you sick but it's necessary. Rest assured they got suck points.
Re: Cornell 3 @ Brown 2 (OT 11/5) post-game thread
Posted by: Al DeFlorio (---.hsd1.ma.comcast.net)
Date: November 06, 2005 11:15PM
[Q]calgARI '07 Wrote:
When you're only playing 13 or 14 players on a Saturday night on the road, you are happy to get the win regardless of who they play.[/q]
Agree.
But it does worry me some that when one center is injured, we have so little depth that we appear unwilling to skate twelve forwards in a game against a team like Brown.
When you're only playing 13 or 14 players on a Saturday night on the road, you are happy to get the win regardless of who they play.[/q]
Agree.
But it does worry me some that when one center is injured, we have so little depth that we appear unwilling to skate twelve forwards in a game against a team like Brown.
___________________________
Al DeFlorio '65
Al DeFlorio '65
Re: Cornell 3 @ Brown 2 (OT 11/5) post-game thread
Posted by: Scersk '97 (---.dsl.chcgil.ameritech.net)
Date: November 06, 2005 11:38PM
Well, quite obviously, with any band that comes to Lynah, you limit them in retaliation or let them bring as many as they want. *Now*, if the Brownies come, you limit them to 25; if Yale comes, you limit them to 25. (Make sure to notify their band leaders this next week of restrictions that would be imposed on them should they decide to make the trip. Tell them why and tell them it's non-negotiable.) When Clarkson comes, you let them use as many as they want, with the explicit understanding that you'll be able to bring as many as you want to Cheel. It's like imposing trade embargoes (O that curs-ed Ograbme! How he nicks 'em!) and engaging in Mexican standoffs.
Failing that, the next step would seem to be a little talk with our athletics department, since I'm sure they won't be all that happy with sending you guys there with tickets and not getting their money's worth. Make sure to make it clear, since they'll imply that it's your fault, that it isn't your fault and that they haven't pulled this kind of crap in the past. (It's standard Cornell Athletics policy, after all, to blame the band first in all situations.) Haven't Yale and Brown violated some provisions of the Ivy Bands Agreement here as well? Maybe you should talk to Pat too. Perhaps Pat, as a sober (heh) representative of band members current and past, or whoever is your athletics liason should be contacting Hagwell and telling him what's going on, since I'm sure it's in the ECAC(HL)'s interest to have as much excitement at games as possible. Tell him that there were ways things were done in the past and that certain other members of the league are starting to act petty where Cornell is involved. Of course, I'm sure you've gotten that far already on your own.
If that doesn't have some effect, I suggest that you should call out the other schools and bands in their own student newspapers. Newspaper people like a good fight, especially if it makes an adminstration unit of their own school look bad. Call 'em cowards and martinets. Spin it well: say their not "playing fair" and that Cornell has always been a "gracious host," so why haven't they been so in return? Say that you enjoy a good battle and it's not your fault that they aren't making an effort. (I haven't been able to find the restrictions either, and I was very clear on the idea that it was only imposed at NCAA sanctioned championship events (and not enforced in our experience) when I was involved (ahem) with the Pep Band's leadership.) Say that they have no basis for their restrictions and are being poor sports.
Give 'em hell, hooligans.
Failing that, the next step would seem to be a little talk with our athletics department, since I'm sure they won't be all that happy with sending you guys there with tickets and not getting their money's worth. Make sure to make it clear, since they'll imply that it's your fault, that it isn't your fault and that they haven't pulled this kind of crap in the past. (It's standard Cornell Athletics policy, after all, to blame the band first in all situations.) Haven't Yale and Brown violated some provisions of the Ivy Bands Agreement here as well? Maybe you should talk to Pat too. Perhaps Pat, as a sober (heh) representative of band members current and past, or whoever is your athletics liason should be contacting Hagwell and telling him what's going on, since I'm sure it's in the ECAC(HL)'s interest to have as much excitement at games as possible. Tell him that there were ways things were done in the past and that certain other members of the league are starting to act petty where Cornell is involved. Of course, I'm sure you've gotten that far already on your own.
If that doesn't have some effect, I suggest that you should call out the other schools and bands in their own student newspapers. Newspaper people like a good fight, especially if it makes an adminstration unit of their own school look bad. Call 'em cowards and martinets. Spin it well: say their not "playing fair" and that Cornell has always been a "gracious host," so why haven't they been so in return? Say that you enjoy a good battle and it's not your fault that they aren't making an effort. (I haven't been able to find the restrictions either, and I was very clear on the idea that it was only imposed at NCAA sanctioned championship events (and not enforced in our experience) when I was involved (ahem) with the Pep Band's leadership.) Say that they have no basis for their restrictions and are being poor sports.
Give 'em hell, hooligans.
Re: Cornell 3 @ Brown 2 (OT 11/5) post-game thread
Posted by: Lauren '06 (---.twcny.res.rr.com)
Date: November 06, 2005 11:59PM
[Q]Scersk '97 Wrote:
Well, quite obviously, with any band that comes to Lynah, you limit them in retaliation or let them bring as many as they want. *Now*, if the Brownies come, you limit them to 25; if Yale comes, you limit them to 25. (Make sure to notify their band leaders this next week of restrictions that would be imposed on them should they decide to make the trip. Tell them why and tell them it's non-negotiable.) When Clarkson comes, you let them use as many as they want, with the explicit understanding that you'll be able to bring as many as you want to Cheel. It's like imposing trade embargoes (O that curs-ed Ograbme! How he nicks 'em!) and engaging in Mexican standoffs.
Failing that, the next step would seem to be a little talk with our athletics department, since I'm sure they won't be all that happy with sending you guys there with tickets and not getting their money's worth. Make sure to make it clear, since they'll imply that it's your fault, that it isn't your fault and that they haven't pulled this kind of crap in the past. (It's standard Cornell Athletics policy, after all, to blame the band first in all situations.) Haven't Yale and Brown violated some provisions of the Ivy Bands Agreement here as well? Maybe you should talk to Pat too. Perhaps Pat, as a sober (heh) representative of band members current and past, or whoever is your athletics liason should be contacting Hagwell and telling him what's going on, since I'm sure it's in the ECAC(HL)'s interest to have as much excitement at games as possible. Tell him that there were ways things were done in the past and that certain other members of the league are starting to act petty where Cornell is involved. Of course, I'm sure you've gotten that far already on your own.
If that doesn't have some effect, I suggest that you should call out the other schools and bands in their own student newspapers. Newspaper people like a good fight, especially if it makes an adminstration unit of their own school look bad. Call 'em cowards and martinets. Spin it well: say their not "playing fair" and that Cornell has always been a "gracious host," so why haven't they been so in return? Say that you enjoy a good battle and it's not your fault that they aren't making an effort. (I haven't been able to find the restrictions either, and I was very clear on the idea that it was only imposed at NCAA sanctioned championship events (and not enforced in our experience) when I was involved (ahem) with the Pep Band's leadership.) Say that they have no basis for their restrictions and are being poor sports.
Give 'em hell, hooligans.[/q]
.... except that it's not the fault of the other bands. Brown's band leadership was taken aback when I told them we'd been limited to 25... they know as well as I do that their rink staff had never limited us in the past. Taking it to the other bands doesn't address the problem. I LIKE the leaders of the other bands, for the most part, and don't want to give them the same crap we got in their arenas. Especially since our ushers have a reputation of being less than hospitable.
Well, quite obviously, with any band that comes to Lynah, you limit them in retaliation or let them bring as many as they want. *Now*, if the Brownies come, you limit them to 25; if Yale comes, you limit them to 25. (Make sure to notify their band leaders this next week of restrictions that would be imposed on them should they decide to make the trip. Tell them why and tell them it's non-negotiable.) When Clarkson comes, you let them use as many as they want, with the explicit understanding that you'll be able to bring as many as you want to Cheel. It's like imposing trade embargoes (O that curs-ed Ograbme! How he nicks 'em!) and engaging in Mexican standoffs.
Failing that, the next step would seem to be a little talk with our athletics department, since I'm sure they won't be all that happy with sending you guys there with tickets and not getting their money's worth. Make sure to make it clear, since they'll imply that it's your fault, that it isn't your fault and that they haven't pulled this kind of crap in the past. (It's standard Cornell Athletics policy, after all, to blame the band first in all situations.) Haven't Yale and Brown violated some provisions of the Ivy Bands Agreement here as well? Maybe you should talk to Pat too. Perhaps Pat, as a sober (heh) representative of band members current and past, or whoever is your athletics liason should be contacting Hagwell and telling him what's going on, since I'm sure it's in the ECAC(HL)'s interest to have as much excitement at games as possible. Tell him that there were ways things were done in the past and that certain other members of the league are starting to act petty where Cornell is involved. Of course, I'm sure you've gotten that far already on your own.
If that doesn't have some effect, I suggest that you should call out the other schools and bands in their own student newspapers. Newspaper people like a good fight, especially if it makes an adminstration unit of their own school look bad. Call 'em cowards and martinets. Spin it well: say their not "playing fair" and that Cornell has always been a "gracious host," so why haven't they been so in return? Say that you enjoy a good battle and it's not your fault that they aren't making an effort. (I haven't been able to find the restrictions either, and I was very clear on the idea that it was only imposed at NCAA sanctioned championship events (and not enforced in our experience) when I was involved (ahem) with the Pep Band's leadership.) Say that they have no basis for their restrictions and are being poor sports.
Give 'em hell, hooligans.[/q]
.... except that it's not the fault of the other bands. Brown's band leadership was taken aback when I told them we'd been limited to 25... they know as well as I do that their rink staff had never limited us in the past. Taking it to the other bands doesn't address the problem. I LIKE the leaders of the other bands, for the most part, and don't want to give them the same crap we got in their arenas. Especially since our ushers have a reputation of being less than hospitable.
Re: Cornell 3 @ Brown 2 (OT 11/5) post-game thread
Posted by: Scersk '97 (---.dsl.chcgil.ameritech.net)
Date: November 07, 2005 12:18AM
[Q]Section A Banshee Wrote:
Scersk '97 Wrote:
Failing that, the next step would seem to be a little talk with our athletics department, since I'm sure they won't be all that happy with sending you guys there with tickets and not getting their money's worth. Make sure to make it clear, since they'll imply that it's your fault, that it isn't your fault and that they haven't pulled this kind of crap in the past. (It's standard Cornell Athletics policy, after all, to blame the band first in all situations.) Haven't Yale and Brown violated some provisions of the Ivy Bands Agreement here as well?[/Q]
.... except that it's not the fault of the other bands. Brown's band leadership was taken aback when I told them we'd been limited to 25... they know as well as I do that their rink staff had never limited us in the past. Taking it to the other bands doesn't address the problem. I LIKE the leaders of the other bands, for the most part, and don't want to give them the same crap we got in their arenas. Especially since our ushers have a reputation of being less than hospitable.[/q]
Unless their athletics goons apologize and state, in writing, that they won't limit the Cornell band again, I still say you have to encourage our own administration to limit them. You have to do something or they'll just continue to pull this kind of crap. Say whatever you want to the Brown band to make them feel better about the situation, but I think they would understand your position. They're Brownies: they should undertand protests and negotiations.
Re: Cornell 3 @ Brown 2 (OT 11/5) post-game thread
Posted by: Lauren '06 (---.twcny.res.rr.com)
Date: November 07, 2005 12:28AM
[Q]Scersk '97 Wrote:
Section A Banshee Wrote:
Scersk '97 Wrote:
Failing that, the next step would seem to be a little talk with our athletics department, since I'm sure they won't be all that happy with sending you guys there with tickets and not getting their money's worth. Make sure to make it clear, since they'll imply that it's your fault, that it isn't your fault and that they haven't pulled this kind of crap in the past. (It's standard Cornell Athletics policy, after all, to blame the band first in all situations.) Haven't Yale and Brown violated some provisions of the Ivy Bands Agreement here as well?[/Q]
.... except that it's not the fault of the other bands. Brown's band leadership was taken aback when I told them we'd been limited to 25... they know as well as I do that their rink staff had never limited us in the past. Taking it to the other bands doesn't address the problem. I LIKE the leaders of the other bands, for the most part, and don't want to give them the same crap we got in their arenas. Especially since our ushers have a reputation of being less than hospitable.[/Q]
Unless their athletics goons apologize and state, in writing, that they won't limit the Cornell band again, I still say you have to encourage our own administration to limit them. You have to do something or they'll just continue to pull this kind of crap. Say whatever you want to the Brown band to make them feel better about the situation, but I think they would understand your position. They're Brownies: they should undertand protests and negotiations.[/q]
But do we have a leg to stand on? If the regulation that visiting bands may only have 25 players does exist, and Cornell just doesn't enforce it, why should other rinks change to accommodate us no matter what we decide to do? Then all we're doing is hurting our fellow bands. Or, on the flip side, there's the fact that the Brown band probably doesn't even have more than 25 people to play and travel anyway. I'd rather take it to the top first and find out if the phantom regulation exists before we play hardball.
Re: Cornell 3 @ Brown 2 (OT 11/5) post-game thread
Posted by: calgARI '07 (209.2.89.---)
Date: November 07, 2005 12:35AM
[Q]Al DeFlorio Wrote:
calgARI '07 Wrote:
When you're only playing 13 or 14 players on a Saturday night on the road, you are happy to get the win regardless of who they play.[/Q]
Agree.
But it does worry me some that when one center is injured, we have so little depth that we appear unwilling to skate twelve forwards in a game against a team like Brown.[/q]
I won't disagree that depth is a MAJOR issue. They have 14 forwards and #13 and #14 are freshmen. If this team runs into injury trouble, it could be a huge problem. The problem is that the coaching staff never forecasted losing Hynes early. I sure hope Chris Abbott is okay.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/07/2005 12:37AM by calgARI '07.
Re: Cornell 3 @ Brown 2 (OT 11/5) post-game thread
Posted by: Scersk '97 (---.dsl.chcgil.ameritech.net)
Date: November 07, 2005 12:41AM
[Q]Section A Banshee Wrote:
But do we have a leg to stand on? If the regulation that visiting bands may only have 25 players does exist, and Cornell just doesn't enforce it, why should other rinks change to accommodate us no matter what we decide to do? Then all we're doing is hurting our fellow bands. Or, on the flip side, there's the fact that the Brown band probably doesn't even have more than 25 people to play and travel anyway. I'd rather take it to the top first and find out if the phantom regulation exists before we play hardball.[/q]
Oh, certainly, it's always better to try first through normal diplomatic channels. I would play hardball if that didn't work, but you guys should do what you want. It's your band.
I'm pretty much assuming that this rule is a complete fabrication. As I said somewhere else (I think it may have been in a "discussion" [flame war] over on USCHO), the 25-member limit is just for distributing free tickets and per diem for NCAA championship events. In fact, if you don't bring enough people, the NCAA makes it very clear (somewhere) that they'll reduce your per diem, i.e., it's not just some pool of money that you divide yourself--there are requirements.
Anyway, back to the point: What would stop opposing schools from limiting the number of visiting marching band members? How about fans in general? Bannings, limitations, etc. have to come from higher up than rink managers, so that's probably where this situation should be handled.
But do we have a leg to stand on? If the regulation that visiting bands may only have 25 players does exist, and Cornell just doesn't enforce it, why should other rinks change to accommodate us no matter what we decide to do? Then all we're doing is hurting our fellow bands. Or, on the flip side, there's the fact that the Brown band probably doesn't even have more than 25 people to play and travel anyway. I'd rather take it to the top first and find out if the phantom regulation exists before we play hardball.[/q]
Oh, certainly, it's always better to try first through normal diplomatic channels. I would play hardball if that didn't work, but you guys should do what you want. It's your band.
I'm pretty much assuming that this rule is a complete fabrication. As I said somewhere else (I think it may have been in a "discussion" [flame war] over on USCHO), the 25-member limit is just for distributing free tickets and per diem for NCAA championship events. In fact, if you don't bring enough people, the NCAA makes it very clear (somewhere) that they'll reduce your per diem, i.e., it's not just some pool of money that you divide yourself--there are requirements.
Anyway, back to the point: What would stop opposing schools from limiting the number of visiting marching band members? How about fans in general? Bannings, limitations, etc. have to come from higher up than rink managers, so that's probably where this situation should be handled.
Visiting Band Limitations
Posted by: Chris '03 (---.0.127.209.adsl.snet.net)
Date: November 07, 2005 01:12AM
For what it's worth, when we tried to bring a band to the Carrier Dome for basketball in '02 and Syracuse said no, the NCAA said they couldn't compel them to do anything because it wasn't an NCAA-run event, they directed me to the Big East. They told me that as a policy the league flat out didn't allow visiting bands. The only time you'd see two bands is at MSG for their tournament. However, because it was a non-league game, they deferred to SU, who after much pleading (kudos to Steve Donahue) relented and let us show up.
Obviously basketball is a different animal, but the hierarchy is the same. Given that these are league games, ECAC and to a lesser extent Ivy regs would come into play before school policy.
If you're looking for what's actually in writing, a good place to start at the conference level is probably Laura Stange the former CU SID turned Assistant Commisioner.
Also of note from the Ivy Bands Agreement:
[Q]Each band will contact its respective ticket office in the Spring or before football season to attempt to secure adequate and equitable seating for visiting bands at football, hockey, and basketball games for the coming year. The visiting bands will be responsible for procuring those seats, but the host bands will make sure that their ticket offices are expecting these bands. If any problems arise involving tickets or seating, visiting bands should feel free to ask the assistance of the host band. The host band will find out and inform the visiting band of any ticket limits imposed by the host school's athletic department at least one week in advance.[/Q]
Re: Cornell 3 @ Brown 2 (OT 11/5) post-game thread
Posted by: Robb (---.losaca.adelphia.net)
Date: November 07, 2005 01:25AM
[Q]calgARI '07 Wrote:
Al DeFlorio Wrote:
calgARI '07 Wrote:
When you're only playing 13 or 14 players on a Saturday night on the road, you are happy to get the win regardless of who they play.[/Q]
Agree.
But it does worry me some that when one center is injured, we have so little depth that we appear unwilling to skate twelve forwards in a game against a team like Brown.[/Q]
I won't disagree that depth is a MAJOR issue. They have 14 forwards and #13 and #14 are freshmen. If this team runs into injury trouble, it could be a huge problem. The problem is that the coaching staff never forecasted losing Hynes early. I sure hope Chris Abbott is okay.
Edited 1 times. Last edit at 11/07/05 12:37AM by calgARI '07.[/q]
Well, we've pulled in J-frosh goalies before in emergency situations. Think Gallagher is ready yet?
Re: Cornell 3 @ Brown 2 (OT 11/5) post-game thread
Posted by: billhoward (---.union01.nj.comcast.net)
Date: November 07, 2005 01:36AM
Reality check time: The other school's athletic director doesn't give a rap about the visiting band, nor does the facility or ticket manager, nor perhaps their Cornell counterparts. And they care even less about your wanting to bring 40 people to play instead of 25. Only your opposites on the home team bands seem to care. Good for them. (Schafer problably likes you there on the road because you're one more fractional disruption of the home team advantage. Plus if some Yale recruit is in the stands and he sees more enthusiasm from the Cornell visitors and band than the home team, he's going to wonder why he's applying to Yale. And maybe Schafer does this because he's a decent guy.)
This not so gentle shafting happens regardless of the subversion of the ideal of good, friendly competition among student-athletes and their supporters and alumni.
The best thing to do is recruit band members whose uncles have given buildings to the university. You'll get your audience with the administration.
This not so gentle shafting happens regardless of the subversion of the ideal of good, friendly competition among student-athletes and their supporters and alumni.
The best thing to do is recruit band members whose uncles have given buildings to the university. You'll get your audience with the administration.
Re: Cornell 3 @ Brown 2 (OT 11/5) post-game thread
Posted by: Scersk '97 (---.dsl.chcgil.ameritech.net)
Date: November 07, 2005 01:57AM
[Q]billhoward Wrote:
Reality check time: The other school's athletic director doesn't give a rap about the visiting band, nor does the facility or ticket manager, nor perhaps their Cornell counterparts.[/q]
Well, thanks for being the voice of pessimism, since, as Cornell students and grads, none of us have any idea how these things usually play out.
Myself, I'd like to think this thing happened through someone having an "idea" and not really checking with other people. If I were the other schools' ADs, I'd be embarrassed about appearing petty.
Reality check time: The other school's athletic director doesn't give a rap about the visiting band, nor does the facility or ticket manager, nor perhaps their Cornell counterparts.[/q]
Well, thanks for being the voice of pessimism, since, as Cornell students and grads, none of us have any idea how these things usually play out.
Myself, I'd like to think this thing happened through someone having an "idea" and not really checking with other people. If I were the other schools' ADs, I'd be embarrassed about appearing petty.
Re: Cornell 3 @ Brown 2 (OT 11/5) post-game thread
Posted by: Trotsky (---.frdrmd.adelphia.net)
Date: November 07, 2005 02:04AM
[Q]billhoward Wrote:
The best thing to do is recruit band members whose uncles have given buildings to the university. You'll get your audience with the administration. [/q]
Another useful real life lesson.
Nobody in the university establishment above the level of unpaid associate SID summer intern is going to spend more than 11 seconds on the issue of whether the 26th band member gets to bring his or her instrument into the barn. My advice is that flutes aren't much bigger than fish; use your imagination. Clarinets -- I still have nightmares about my 7th grade clarinet teacher, so I'm low on sympathy -- but if people can smuggle an entire Toyota into the country one piece at a time, I'm sure the Faithful can think of something.
The best thing to do is recruit band members whose uncles have given buildings to the university. You'll get your audience with the administration. [/q]
Another useful real life lesson.
Nobody in the university establishment above the level of unpaid associate SID summer intern is going to spend more than 11 seconds on the issue of whether the 26th band member gets to bring his or her instrument into the barn. My advice is that flutes aren't much bigger than fish; use your imagination. Clarinets -- I still have nightmares about my 7th grade clarinet teacher, so I'm low on sympathy -- but if people can smuggle an entire Toyota into the country one piece at a time, I'm sure the Faithful can think of something.
Re: Cornell 3 @ Brown 2 (OT 11/5) post-game thread
Posted by: gatitita '05 (---.twcny.res.rr.com)
Date: November 07, 2005 02:04AM
[Q] As far as I'm concerned, if SHORTS can't find something in a policy, it must not exist.[/q]
seriously. how feasible is asking the rink manager to show you the rule before he can enforce it? make them find it!
seriously. how feasible is asking the rink manager to show you the rule before he can enforce it? make them find it!
Re: Cornell 3 @ Brown 2 (OT 11/5) post-game thread
Posted by: Jeff Hopkins '82 (---.airproducts.com)
Date: November 07, 2005 02:11AM
[Q]Scersk '97 Wrote:
If I were the other schools' ADs, I'd be embarrassed about appearing petty.[/q]
If our AD is any indication, embarrassment is not in the skill set of an AD.
If I were the other schools' ADs, I'd be embarrassed about appearing petty.[/q]
If our AD is any indication, embarrassment is not in the skill set of an AD.
Re: Cornell 3 @ Brown 2 (OT 11/5) post-game thread
Posted by: gatitita '05 (---.twcny.res.rr.com)
Date: November 07, 2005 02:30AM
the problem wasnt getting them in there, the problem was them coming over and counting how many people we had playing. and then stopping us, in the middle of playing, to kick us out of the building. we got the 41 in at first....
Re: Cornell 3 @ Brown 2 (OT 11/5) post-game thread
Posted by: KP '06 (---.twcny.res.rr.com)
Date: November 07, 2005 08:40AM
[Q]billhoward Wrote:
Reality check time: The other school's athletic director doesn't give a rap about the visiting band, nor does the facility or ticket manager, nor perhaps their Cornell counterparts. And they care even less about your wanting to bring 40 people to play instead of 25. [/q]
Would you rather have the band bend over and give Brown the ol' thumbs up when we're pissed off about something that legitimately matters to us? That doesn't seem like much of a life lesson.
The band is well aware that the vast majority of our athletics department (and the entirety of other athletics departments) treats us like the bastard stepchild that nobody wants. However, if other athletics departments are anything like ours, then they care very much about their reputation and how they are seen in the public light, and that is a weakness that can be exploited.
Edit: Sorry again for hijacking a hockey thread!
Reality check time: The other school's athletic director doesn't give a rap about the visiting band, nor does the facility or ticket manager, nor perhaps their Cornell counterparts. And they care even less about your wanting to bring 40 people to play instead of 25. [/q]
Would you rather have the band bend over and give Brown the ol' thumbs up when we're pissed off about something that legitimately matters to us? That doesn't seem like much of a life lesson.
The band is well aware that the vast majority of our athletics department (and the entirety of other athletics departments) treats us like the bastard stepchild that nobody wants. However, if other athletics departments are anything like ours, then they care very much about their reputation and how they are seen in the public light, and that is a weakness that can be exploited.
Edit: Sorry again for hijacking a hockey thread!
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/07/2005 08:41AM by KP '06.
Re: Cornell 3 @ Brown 2 (OT 11/5) post-game thread
Posted by: ugarte (---.cisco.com)
Date: November 07, 2005 10:14AM
[Q]Section A Banshee Wrote: It's like coaching youth soccer and benching the same kids week after week. It makes you sick but it's necessary.[/q]Please don't coach youth soccer after your days as band leader end.
___________________________
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Re: Cornell 3 @ Brown 2 (OT 11/5) post-game thread
Posted by: Trotsky (---.harris.com)
Date: November 07, 2005 10:15AM
[Q]KP '06 Wrote:
Would you rather have the band bend over and give Brown the ol' thumbs up when we're pissed off about something that legitimately matters to us? That doesn't seem like much of a life lesson.[/q]
Good preparation for marriage, though.
Would you rather have the band bend over and give Brown the ol' thumbs up when we're pissed off about something that legitimately matters to us? That doesn't seem like much of a life lesson.[/q]
Good preparation for marriage, though.
Re: Cornell 3 @ Brown 2 (OT 11/5) post-game thread
Posted by: billhoward (---.union01.nj.comcast.net)
Date: November 07, 2005 10:25AM
[Q]KP '06 Wrote:Would you rather have the band bend over and give Brown the ol' thumbs up when we're pissed off about something that legitimately matters to us? That doesn't seem like much of a life lesson.
The band is well aware that the vast majority of our athletics department (and the entirety of other athletics departments) treats us like the bastard stepchild that nobody wants. However, if other athletics departments are anything like ours, then they care very much about their reputation and how they are seen in the public light, and that is a weakness that can be exploited.
Edit: Sorry again for hijacking a hockey thread![/q]We all want to support the underdog and the persecuted. I was the one at Yale with the "Free Mike" poster. Maybe we should make one up for the band. "Let My People Play"? "Free Bird, Free (the) Band"? "Band Blows, Administration Sucks"? "Band Blows, Andy Sucks" fits better on a two-line poster, but then you're making it personal and there should always be an element of humor.
BTW: For Lynah East, how about: "Mean People Suck. Harvard Swallows." Maybe make it two separate posters and put on poster #2 "Courtesy Cornell Ornithology Labs."
The band is well aware that the vast majority of our athletics department (and the entirety of other athletics departments) treats us like the bastard stepchild that nobody wants. However, if other athletics departments are anything like ours, then they care very much about their reputation and how they are seen in the public light, and that is a weakness that can be exploited.
Edit: Sorry again for hijacking a hockey thread![/q]We all want to support the underdog and the persecuted. I was the one at Yale with the "Free Mike" poster. Maybe we should make one up for the band. "Let My People Play"? "Free Bird, Free (the) Band"? "Band Blows, Administration Sucks"? "Band Blows, Andy Sucks" fits better on a two-line poster, but then you're making it personal and there should always be an element of humor.
BTW: For Lynah East, how about: "Mean People Suck. Harvard Swallows." Maybe make it two separate posters and put on poster #2 "Courtesy Cornell Ornithology Labs."
Re: Cornell 3 @ Brown 2 (OT 11/5) post-game thread
Posted by: Lauren '06 (---.research.cornell.edu)
Date: November 07, 2005 01:48PM
So the word has come down from on high. According to Anita Brenner, all the AD's in the ECAC got together before the season and agreed to not let in more than 25 members of any traveling band, which is why things happened differently this season than we were used to in the past. It is probably not documented, it's just an agreement they all reached in committee. So it looks like this is policy forever from now on.
I'm also very appreciative to athletics for not telling us this before we left last Friday...
I'm also very appreciative to athletics for not telling us this before we left last Friday...
Re: Cornell 3 @ Brown 2 (OT 11/5) post-game thread
Posted by: Bryan '06 (---.resnet.cornell.edu)
Date: November 07, 2005 02:18PM
Well, I'm happy to know that someone who is intimately involved with our group represented us at this meeting...
___________________________
Fall 2005 Pepband Conductor
Looking like Waldo since September 2002
Fall 2005 Pepband Conductor
Looking like Waldo since September 2002
Re: Cornell 3 @ Brown 2 (OT 11/5) post-game thread
Posted by: Chris '03 (---.public.uconn.edu)
Date: November 07, 2005 02:35PM
[Q]Section A Banshee Wrote:
So the word has come down from on high. According to Anita Brenner, all the AD's in the ECAC got together before the season and agreed to not let in more than 25 members of any traveling band, which is why things happened differently this season than we were used to in the past. It is probably not documented, it's just an agreement they all reached in committee. So it looks like this is policy forever from now on.
I'm also very appreciative to athletics for not telling us this before we left last Friday...[/q]
They could just be lying. Athletics administrators have wild imaginations and often the way to defeat logical arguments or defusing a situation is fabricating a rule. See the "ivy rule" about bands not being allowed to sit under the basket at basketball following the armond hill incident. What? There is no rule? That's crazy talk! Our own athletics department would never lie to us...oh wait.
Chip firmly still on shoulder...
So the word has come down from on high. According to Anita Brenner, all the AD's in the ECAC got together before the season and agreed to not let in more than 25 members of any traveling band, which is why things happened differently this season than we were used to in the past. It is probably not documented, it's just an agreement they all reached in committee. So it looks like this is policy forever from now on.
I'm also very appreciative to athletics for not telling us this before we left last Friday...[/q]
They could just be lying. Athletics administrators have wild imaginations and often the way to defeat logical arguments or defusing a situation is fabricating a rule. See the "ivy rule" about bands not being allowed to sit under the basket at basketball following the armond hill incident. What? There is no rule? That's crazy talk! Our own athletics department would never lie to us...oh wait.
Chip firmly still on shoulder...
Re: Cornell 3 @ Brown 2 (OT 11/5) post-game thread
Posted by: Lauren '06 (---.research.cornell.edu)
Date: November 07, 2005 02:36PM
[Q]Chris '03 Wrote:
Section A Banshee Wrote:
So the word has come down from on high. According to Anita Brenner, all the AD's in the ECAC got together before the season and agreed to not let in more than 25 members of any traveling band, which is why things happened differently this season than we were used to in the past. It is probably not documented, it's just an agreement they all reached in committee. So it looks like this is policy forever from now on.
I'm also very appreciative to athletics for not telling us this before we left last Friday...[/Q]
They could just be lying. Athletics administrators have wild imaginations and often the way to defeat logical arguments or defusing a situation is fabricating a rule. See the "ivy rule" about bands not being allowed to sit under the basket at basketball following the armond hill incident. What? There is no rule? That's crazy talk! Our own athletics department would never lie to us...oh wait.
Chip firmly still on shoulder...[/q]
Point being, if we push the issue, all they'll do is REALLY issue a regulation saying the same thing. Either way, the days of 41-person bands seem to be over.
Re: Cornell 3 @ Brown 2 (OT 11/5) post-game thread
Posted by: ugarte (---.cisco.com)
Date: November 07, 2005 03:16PM
[Q]Section A Banshee Wrote:Point being, if we push the issue, all they'll do is REALLY issue a regulation saying the same thing. Either way, the days of 41-person bands seem to be over.[/q]As a non-band alum who has read a lot of band posts here, it appears that there are two (maybe three) bands that really matter (ie, travel in numbers): ours, Clarkson's, and (perhaps) Colgate's.
Any chance those three schools would agree to a reciprocal waiver of the 25 person rule? (Or that the AD's would agree to the waiver if agreed?) I don't think that I am alone in feeling that the atmosphere at Lynah is enhanced when the opposition band arrives in force and plays respectfully*. I'd like to think that the bandies at Clarkson and Colgate feel the same way.
* The specific definition of respectfully used here: loud and obnoxious, but only when it is the visitors' turn to play. It is assumed that the hosts should treat the guests with the same "respect."
Any chance those three schools would agree to a reciprocal waiver of the 25 person rule? (Or that the AD's would agree to the waiver if agreed?) I don't think that I am alone in feeling that the atmosphere at Lynah is enhanced when the opposition band arrives in force and plays respectfully*. I'd like to think that the bandies at Clarkson and Colgate feel the same way.
* The specific definition of respectfully used here: loud and obnoxious, but only when it is the visitors' turn to play. It is assumed that the hosts should treat the guests with the same "respect."
___________________________
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