Daily Sun Article 11/11

[www.cornelldailysun.com]

[q]"I was mad, I was pissed off, because I'm a fan, I'm trying to be a good fan, and they're inhibiting my ability to have pride in Cornell and pride in my team," Linder said.[/q]
Apparently, if you can't say 'a**hole', you can't possibly have pride in Cornell or the hockey team.

And this isn't a know-nothing freshman, it is the president of the SA, a junior.

What's up with "you lose?" First I've heard of that bastardization... Now I remember why I never took the SA seriously - thanks for the trip down memory lane, Linder...

He just sounds like a whiny moron in the article. Sometims you have to learn when to shut your mouth instead of advertising to the entire school that you're an idiot.

Pete-
He is actually a nice guy and a friend of mine, so shut up. Everyone gets cheers wrong, even long time faithful.
This is the first time the sun has really talked about the censorship and unfair ejections that athletics has forced upon us. Does an alumni out there want to write a letter and continue to call out athletics on this? They usually print alumni letters......


-ben rocky '04

Ben Rocky '04 wrote:

Does an alumni out there want to write a letter and continue to call out athletics on this?
-ben rocky '04

This alum is 100% behind Athletics--and Coach Schafer--on this issue. As has been stated above, your friend's a "whiny moron," Ben.



Post Edited (11-11-03 11:07)

You're supposed to be getting an Ivy League education, Ben. You have exactly six months left to learn that "alumni" is plural for "alumnus."

Beeeej

P.S. ("Knoepflus"?)

Jeffrey "Beeeej" Anbinder '94 wrote:

P.S. ("Knoepflus"?)

Knoepfli. He has the strength of ten men.

Ben,

This alum (and former SA member) who was kicked out once for the correctly worded (but still illegal) version of the cheer is behind Athletics as well. Being the head of a student group and spending a few hours in Ramin Room does not give you license to violate NCAA rules. Take your lumps, stop whining, stop co-opting the press, show up next game, and keep it clean (especially in front of the ushers).

But then, if you want a letter, I might be persuaded to oblidge.

Michael

[q]Linder's main complaint was the lack of publicity about the rules. "You got to respect the Lynah Faithful," he said. "Basically, nobody knows the policy... and nobody knows you can lose your season's tickets."[/q]

I couldn't tell if this was your friend's first or second strike, Ben Rocky. It doesn't matter, though. Based on his actions (at the rink and after), your friend is a moron. And if you read the article, it is clear that he is also whiny. If he didn't want to be publicly criticized, he shouldn't have gone public with his ill-founded complaints.

There is no way that your friend can claim that he was unaware that saying "asshole" would get him tossed from Lynah. He is a junior! Unless he didn't go to the games as a frosh or soph (facetimer?). I haven't been on campus for a game in five years, and I knew that using offensive language was a ticket-revoking offense.

I too find it to be highly bizarre that someone who has been going to games for three years would not have any idea of the fact that they have been trying to get rid of the profanity for at least the last four years. Sounds to me like someone who knew the rules, chose to ignore them, got caught and is now being a baby about it. Glad to see these are the kind of people that represent the student body (of course, they don't do anything for vet students anyway, so why should I care? )

No one can reasonably say that they didn't know about the language police. it's been going on since Schafer's first year as head coach - that's nine seasons now. The only way to not know would be to not be paying any attention in which case he got what he deserved.

But what's up with Hayes saying "'See you, a**hole' always used to be 'See you . . . you goon!' with a pause." The "you goon" was a deliberate attempt to stifle the constant use of a**hole. (Robb, wasn't it you or Canadace that started goon?) Yeah John, you got the spirit right, but the details man, the details! (Of course, the reporter may well have misquoted you...)

Oh, it should be written "See ya" anyway...

I am all for the cleaner language after bringing my parents to the RPI game in 1991-1992 and suffering through a two hour profanity filled display from one drunk guy in section G. But I think kicking people out and/or taking away their season tickets borders on fascism. Whatever happened to freedom of speech? I think the language rules should be enforced by the Faithful through shaming the violators.

"you lose" most likely started last season. A friend of mine who sat in G told me that he heard people saying that, and we laughed about it often. Probably newbies/freshmen in F-G not really being able to hear clearly what was being said and heard "you goon" as "you lose."

2 minor corrections on quotes in that story. The first by John Hayes: [q]"'See you, asshole' always used to be 'See you . . . you goon!' with a pause," Hayes said. He added that the expletive was originally reserved for especially nefarious opponents.[/q]
True, but the "goon" part was originally added after the asshole had been cemented in. My first season was in '92-'93, shortly after that cheer came in from Michigan in that '91 series (the only cheer we lifted from them...they had imported it from Duke basketball). Originally it was "ahhhhhhh...See ya!" with no tags, and a powerful echo-effect. If an opponent particularly pissed off the fans, the sing-song "ass-hole! ass-hole!" cheer would escort him to the box and the "see ya" would be punctuated with "asshole." This happened maybe 2-3 times per season. By about '94, the student sections started adding "asshole" to every penalty, followed shortly by a small group behind the penalty boxes finishing with a "you goon!" that grew in popularity. Some people tried to eliminate the profanity (per coach Schafer's request) by going straight to "you goon" in the fall of '96, but that was like trying to put out a SoCal brush fire with a squirt gun. The result was just jumbled mumbled shouting.

Michigan's version also started adding a new tag every year, that included several profanities and a certain Colgate player's name. And now, there's a crackdown there. [elf.elynah.com]

And, judging from the game at Yale this past Friday night, the Yale band/students now do "ahhhhhhhhh....See ya!!......Bitch!"

2nd: [q]Nighman also pointed out that "the song, which is a song that is played at basically every other university in the country, is supposed to be 'Rough 'em up, rough 'em up,' but we've manipulated that into something more vulgar." [/q]
That's just wrong. The "Rock-n-Roll Part 2" words were originally introduced to CU as the "vulgar" version, and almost no other universities have that "we're gonna beat..." crowd bit. I think BU just chants "sieve" during that part. Anyway, the history as I know it: The band was relatively late in adding that song to its playlist, in relation to other hockey teams (pro and college)...probably around '95. The crowd quickly found that "Sieve!" worked quite nicely instead of "hey!" The first time I realized someone was trying to start a chant in the space between verses was in the playoffs in '96. We couldn't make out what they were saying. But in Lake Placid that year, there was a row of shirtless ("GO CORNELL" chest painters) fans in the upper deck across the ice from the band obviously chanting something. A friend ran up to get the exact wording (it was "f*** 'em up", and by the first few games of the '96-'97 season, it had taken root in the student section. Bandies, not generally allowed to swear, realized that "Rough 'em up" was a clean alternative and did that on the road. The "you suck" thing after "Sieve" is new in the last 2-3 seasons.

As far as the SA president not knowing about the consequences of swearing, huge signs are up at each entrance. It's easy to forget they are there seeing them every week.

Just to add to the history...

I believe that the acapella to Rock-n-Roll Part 2/Gary Glitter grew out of the profanity crackdown. The AD forbade the band from playing it at the beginning of the 3rd because of the "f*** 'em up, f*** 'em up... I thought it was the '97-'98 season, but somebody please refresh my memory. In any case, the Faithful would have none of that, and all together, began to sing Gary Glitter. Now, it has taken hold, so when the band stops playing once the puck is dropped, the crowd fills in until the next stoppage in play.

I dont really care if people curse or not. But if this guy had no clue that it would get him thrown out, he is a moron. Thsi being his third year, he should have noticed people getting thrown out, the ushers policing the aisles and, oh yeah, the multitude of announcements at games, in the Sun, and during the ticket line. This leads to one of two conclusion.s Either he hasnt been to any of these, in which case why does he have season tickets...becuase he's SA president? The either possibility is he's not too swift to have not noticed this by now, in which case do we really want him as SA president? Either way, it's too bad that whenever somethign happens to inconvenience me that I cant abuse my position and get publicity for it.

And of course the biggest mistake: it's "you goon," not "you lose".

Overall, anyone can try and curse for all I care. But they also take the risk of being thrown out. It's part of the rules, so dont whine when you get caught.



Post Edited (11-11-03 15:00)

The first part of the R&R Pt2. words, "We're going to beat the hell out of you," was started by my grad student officemate, probably in the 95-96 season. He was importing this from Miami University, where he'd gone for undergrad. The second half of the tag "F--- 'em up, F--- 'em up, go CU" was added pretty quickly by the guys around us. It definitley started in the more profane form.

Not sure how long it took for the entire crowd to catch on.

Can we stop arguing about freedom of speech on this topic? It's been discussed before. It's not a freedom of speech issue. You don't have a constitutional right to swear at a private sporting event.

Last season I took my parents to one of the RPI first-round ECAC playoff games, and we sat in the middle of B (got extra tix from my friends who went to Europe for spring break). I was a little worried about how they might react to some of the cheers, and prewarned them to expect a little lewdness. Fortunately they didn't seem to take offense to any of it, and figured a little well-placed vulgarity could spice things up a bit. However, I have to concur with the majority here in that cheers that are excessively vulgar should not be used in excess, lest they grow tiresome and immature, and undermine the Faithful's creativity.

Seasoned fans should politely let the nubians around them know if they do something wrong, such as say 'lose' instead of 'goon', jingle their keys with more than 5 minutes remaining, start the "funnel/vacuum/black hole" cheer when we're losing, throw stuff on the ice at any other time than just after announcements (and even then only items that could not injure somebody, and with a slight exception being smelly carp for Hahvahd, which are thrown as they skate onto the ice), carry out the word "die" during tubas for more than 3 seconds, and dance to the macho man song (unless sweater guy from SLU(t) is present). Just came up with these off the top of my head, of what was annoying last season (sort of kidding about the macho man one though, I know some folks really enjoy that one ).

In addition, veteran Faithful should set a good example for the newcomers by leading the cheers in a more respectable manner. I personally feel we should abolish the "see ya" cheer and come up with something completely new, in light of the bad press it has received recently thanks to the Yost fans, and the fact that the cheer has become trite. The "rough 'em up" cheer is a Lynah staple, and should continue to be upheld. But the caveat remains for those who substitute a few words, and they have no basis for complaint should they happen to get tossed from a game. By the way, I'm not a fan of the "you suck" that echoes the "sieve" in Gary Glitter because I feel it is overused, though I know some people have said that the added effect seems neat.

Anyone have ideas on what could replace the "see ya" cheer, or make it a Lynah trademark?

[Q]"you lose" most likely started last season. A friend of mine who sat in G told me that he heard people saying that, and we laughed about it often. Probably newbies/freshmen in F-G not really being able to hear clearly what was being said and heard "you goon" as "you lose."[/Q]
No, it's been around since at least '99, when I was a freshman and sat in G. It was the only version I heard around me - as you said, becuase you definitely can't make out the other sections words from G very well.

It's possible that it spread to A and B when people were were formerly in E, F, and G moved there, but I've never not heard it as the majority chant... having sat in G, E, E, E, the last four years, and now C/B.

I don't want to argue this to death but could you a) point me to the thread where this was discussed before b) explain how Cornell hockey is a private event c) explain how swearing is not speech

I was in G last year and the few of us that were up at the top really tried to teach the newbies that it was 'goon' not 'lose', but it seemed that as the year went along people said lose more. And now that I am in the townies section (or non-student Ithaca-area folk section,so that person doesn't come back and yell at me), I hear lose more and more. One would think the townies would know better. For my part I shall not let the front few rows of L say 'lose'

Bill '94 wrote:

I don't want to argue this to death but could you a) point me to the thread where this was discussed before b) explain how Cornell hockey is a private event c) explain how swearing is not speech

I'm not an archives trawler, but we definitely covered the crackdown on profanity many times before. Probably as long ago as eLF's daddy, CHDF.

Swearing is obviously speech. But freedom of speech isn't "the right to speak in public" it is the right not to be censored by a government authority. Even that right, however, is subject to "time, place and manner" restrictions. That is why it is OK to see strippers at Scores, but NYC could keep them off of the Great Lawn of Central Park during lunch. Curbing profanity in public places is fair game (even if not always fair game, as in Cohen v. Ohio, the "Fuck the Draft" case).

But Cornell squelching profanity at hockey games isn't in the same category. Cornell is a private institution, not a governmental authority, even though some of the colleges are partially publicly supported. Lynah Rink is a private facility, and purchasing a ticket to see a game is not an all-access pass, it is a limited license, with the terms and conditions of that license printed on the back and stated in multiple places around the facility. (The public/private distinction is admittedly blurrier with respect to admissions, particularly in the statutory colleges, but this post is already too long.)

There is no First Amendment issue in play when the AD says "no screaming asshole in a crowded rink".



Post Edited (11-11-03 16:13)

I understand the legal points of what you're saying but I guess I'm just uncomfortable with the University's constant drive toward polical correctness - exincluding the profanity. I can't find the policy on the Cornell Athletic's web site or via a Google search so can someone fill me in on what is printed on the tickets and/or the signs at Lynah? I did come across an editorial from last year's Sun (http://www.cornelldailysun.com/articles/6744/) and someone got their tickets yanked because "other students who felt harassed by the profanity of his cheers and the anti-gay remarks he made to the opposing team" complained to the JA. So we aren't just talking about profanity. Apparently "your boyfriend called" might just get you kicked out. And is it uniformly applied by each usher? Do they conference before the season like the NFL refs to go over what is unacceptable?



Post Edited (11-11-03 16:43)

[Q]"You got to respect the Lynah Faithful," he said. "Basically, nobody knows the policy... and nobody knows you can lose your season's tickets." [/Q]

The above quote really hit me. The Lynah Faithful know the rules: we have all seen the ushers stalking down the aisles and we have all seen people get kicked out in the student sections (among the many other indicators). The whole article reminded me of WalterBrownArena and his emotional outburst about Cornell and Broadway, etc.

From discussions with other well respected student leaders on campus, Linder blew this one by going to the Sun and he really tarnished his image by making some emotional statements. Most important thing though...give it a day or two and people will forget.



Post Edited (11-11-03 16:42)

[q]I can't find the policy on the Cornell Athletic's web site or via a Google search so can someone fill me in on what is printed on the tickets and/or the signs at Lynah?[/q]
TO THE HOLDER OF THIS TICKET
This ticket is a revocable license which may be withdrawn at any time for any reason. No alcoholic beverages, containers, coolers, controlled substances, weapons, etc. will be allowed on the premises. Any person who engages in disorderly or disruptive conduct such as profanity and abusive or threatening language, or the throwing of objects, shall be subject to removal without refund.
The holder assumes all risk and danger incidental to the attraction whether occurring prior to, during, or subsequently to the actual attraction and agrees that the management and its agents and players are not liable for injuries resulting from the attendance at the attraction.

THIS TICKET WILL NOT BE REPLACED, REFUNDED, OR EXCHANGED FOR ANY REASON. EVENT TIME AND/OR DATE IS SUBJECT TO CHANGE. TICKETS ARE NOT REDEEMABLE FOR CASH.
NOTE: Those leaving the event must have ticket to re-enter.

I reread the article and I don't understand what this line has to do with anything:

"According to the NCAA Men's and Women's Ice Hockey Rules and Interpretations, "A coach or other non-playing person connected with a team shall not use foul or abusive language; obscene gestures; threatening language or gestures to an official or opposing players either before or during a game." "

"It's an NCAA rule, and we are an NCAA institution," explained Gene Nighman '81, director of Athletic Tickets and Events, who is in charge of enforcing the rule.

Is a fan considered a "non-playing person connected with a team"? I would have thought that applied to the trainers, equipment manager, etc. Is this a misquote on the Sun's part or a misapplication of the rule by Nighman?

Bill '94 wrote:

I reread the article and I don't understand what this line has to do with anything:

"According to the NCAA Men's and Women's Ice Hockey Rules and Interpretations, "A coach or other non-playing person connected with a team shall not use foul or abusive language; obscene gestures; threatening language or gestures to an official or opposing players either before or during a game." "

"It's an NCAA rule, and we are an NCAA institution," explained Gene Nighman '81, director of Athletic Tickets and Events, who is in charge of enforcing the rule.

Is a fan considered a "non-playing person connected with a team"? I would have thought that applied to the trainers, equipment manager, etc. Is this a misquote on the Sun's part or a misapplication of the rule by Nighman?

I agree with you on this one, Bill. It strikes me as an overbroad application of the literal language of the rule. Specifically, an interpretation used in a pass-the-buck manner by a person lacking the guts to defend the policy strictly on its own terms.

Thanks for posting the policy. To me it is pretty vague. I suppose we can almost all agree on what is profanity although I really dislike the "I know it when I see it approach." Linder should have had the sense to know asshole was going to be a problem. As for "abusive or threatening language" it seems like it almost the whim of the usher. Catch him on a bad night. . . .

And as for Adam's comment "we have all seen the ushers stalking down the aisles" I'm glad I graduated when I did.

Technically I think the fans are probably covered by the rules about foul language cited here. But it's still a pretty dumb thing to say. I've never heard of a team being penalized for the language used by fans. It probbaly would never be used unless and until fans' behavior/language actually became a genuine threat to the opposing team, in which case I'd guess the refs would be more likely to award a win by forfeit than a 2 minute penalty.

Bill, I agree about the appropriateness of the policy - I don't like it and it hasn't always been enforced in a way that's fair to students. I just get annoyed at spurious First Amendment claims.

And yes, the enforcement can be arbitrary and subjective (or at least it seemed so when I last had season tickets, five years ago).

Bill '94 wrote:

Thanks for posting the policy. To me it is pretty vague. I suppose we can almost all agree on what is profanity although I really dislike the "I know it when I see it approach." Linder should have had the sense to know asshole was going to be a problem. As for "abusive or threatening language" it seems like it almost the whim of the usher. Catch him on a bad night. . . .

And as for Adam's comment "we have all seen the ushers stalking down the aisles" I'm glad I graduated when I did.

Maybe so, but then again maybe not.

If you ever bring your wife and children to Lynah you will be glad that every other word isn't fuck and suck. I have been a regular with my family since '96 and I was very happy to see the change in policy when it occurred. It may interest you to know that Lynah and Cornell are not alone in the quest for a less vulgar athletic arena.

The phrase "a revocable license which may be withdrawn at any time for any reason" seems vague to you?

Beeeej

Rich H '96 wrote:
Anyway, the history as I know it: The band was relatively late in adding that song to its playlist, in relation to other hockey teams (pro and college)...probably around '95. The crowd quickly found that "Sieve!" worked quite nicely instead of "hey!" The first time I realized someone was trying to start a chant in the space between verses was in the playoffs in '96.

Adding that song was deliberately coordinated between the Pep Band and Athletics as far back as '92, actually - for basketball. I'm nearly positive it was in hockey games by '93 - it just didn't catch on as a crowd-participation thing until later.

Probably 'cause there wasn't much of a crowd in '93.

Beeeej

Probably true. Doesn't mean I have to like the manner in which they are creating the environment.

Keith, I didn't mean to imply that this is a true violation of the First Amendment in the case of the profanity. It's the lack of definition of just what is offensive that I find troublesome. That it comes from an institution of higher learning is equally troublesome.

Did they start with the ejection policy immediately after Schafer arrived or did they give the Faithful time to get their act together?

Bill '94 wrote:

Did they start with the ejection policy immediately after Schafer arrived or did they give the Faithful time to get their act together?

I think it was Coach's third or fourth year but there may be a better way to determine this than by relying on the 135 MB hard drive in my head. I no longer have the power supply to keep that baby humming.

I believe that it was instituted at least partially because of the Coach's children (this is strictly conjecture). And that is of course the reason that I like the policy so much.

Enforcement is definitely arbitrary and subjective...which is why the real Lynah Faithful (not those that are self proclaimed like Linder) either don't swear during the cheers or they keep a watchful eye on the aisles.

I remember Coach bringing his kids on to the ice and quarter cards being placed on each seat when the profanity rule was adopted. Didn't Michigan get fined a heavy sum a few years back for profanity during an NCAA regional? I think the kids were just used as a symbol for why the rule should be in place but if my 146MB hard drive is still of any use, the threat of fines was the real cause for concern.

As someone who defended the right to curse in Lynah in The Sun only to receive a nasty email from a member of the team, I can only assume that Schafer was behind the whole movement so that his kids didn't have to hear vulgarities. The member said something to the effect: "I hope Coach Schafer goes to your house and curses at your children" among other jems.

Wait someone on our hockey team emailed you and said that??? Does that seem odd to anyone else?

(This isn't to pass any judgment on the email Anna received.)

I'll definitely back up the notion that Coach Schafer's kids are one reason for the crackdown on profanity.

But even if that weren't his reason, while I can't speak for anyone else, the fact that that's what Schafer has requested is reason enough for me to refrain. He's largely responsible for the fact that we've all had such a wonderful program to cheer for over the past few years, Lynah IS his "house", and so as far as I'm concerned, what he says goes.

What is a quarter card?

I like Schafer as much as the next person but I disagree that it is "his house". It is "our house" - coaches, players, and Faithful. We make it possible by paying tuition, making gifts, and buying season tickets. Lynah wouldn't be Lynah without the players or the Faithful. When a coach gets whatever he wants the next step is almost always NCAA sanctions.

Firstly, its a damn stupid policy. Any publicity, no matter how dumb the daily sun is or how Nick is acting like a big complainer, it is good as it brings attention to the fact that the rule is PC crap. I've paid to come into an establishment and it seems very unfair to kick me out when 1000s of people are using the same language as me. It also seems highly unfair to revoke the tickets I paid for just because I used offenseive language (yes, yes, i agreed to these rules, that does not mean I have to like them). Its not like a threw glass onto the ice, caused damage, hurt other fans or showed up drunk. I used non-racist, non homophobic and non-biggoted words ! *gasp*

I've been going to games since the 80s and I didn't know they were actually kicking people out till the York game last season. It seemed till then that this was a 'right' that Athletics reserved but seldom used.

I am not claiming that it is a freedom of speech violation. Cornell clearly is a private institution and they own Lynah, not me. But what individuals say is not the university's business elsewhere on campus, so why in Lynah?

If being Lynah faithful is not about saying cruel, mean and evil things to members of the opposing team, then I beg someone to define it for me.

Al DeFlorio: get over yourself. swearing is harmless, its not gonna give you cancer.

How the FUCK does harsh language harm children or women???
i really dont get this!

The fact that Schafer has asked us to stop is the first sensible argument against the swearing that i've read here. Getting kicked out for it, a little lame. If the faithful as a whole were more mature, they would listen to the Coach and do what he requests. Forcing it down our throats with PC-patrol-ushers really makes it hard to deal with.
Yea, some of the swearing and profanity is stupid, and overused: the 'you suck' after 'sieve' in gary is really lame. on the other hand robo-goalie is a tradition.
after an opposing team scores a goal, it should be "lets go red, lets go red," not "you still suck, you still suck"
but
"fuck em up, fuck em up, go CU" has been around since the mid-90s and so has "cya ass hole, you GOON".
Fans at other rinks can scream "you suck" all they want. Lynah is a place for cheers like "we want weeder". Creativity should be our first goal, not burning the ears of prudes, yet at the same time we need to realize that the occasional "ass hole" does not damage of the very fabric of space/time, no matter what you whiners say.

Ben Rocky '04 wrote:

How the FUCK does harsh language harm children or women???
i really dont get this!

Because society hasn't yet adapted into a harmless language society. I agree, language probably doesn't do that much harm in reality. But until society at large accepts what is now considered vulgar language 100% into the realm of acceptable language, large scale vulgarity will remain frowned upon.

I'm not sure, but I would guess that language will always have slang and vulgarity. "Fuck" may become acceptable in 50 or 100 years, but another word (that may not even exist yet) will likely take its place in the category of vulgar language.

In any case, it's quite clear that Cornell can do whatever the heck they want with hockey attendees, to their own credit or harm. The fact of the matter is, Linder broke the well-displayed and well-known rules and Athletics was well within their rights to do what they did.

Ben Rocky '04 wrote:
The fact that Schafer has asked us to stop is the first sensible argument against the swearing that i've read here. Getting kicked out for it, a little lame. If the faithful as a whole were more mature, they would listen to the Coach and do what he requests. Forcing it down our throats with PC-patrol-ushers really makes it hard to deal with.

So, it's OK to have a no-swearing policy if Schafer has requested it, but it's not OK to enforce it?

on the other hand robo-goalie is a tradition.

Robo-goalie is a tradition. Just yelling "BEND OVER! BEND OVER!" is lazy and stupid.

That does not mean that Atheltics rules are right, there actions were right, or that society is correct for worrying about some words.

uh oh...somebody call the wah-mbulance......

In a more perfect world, students would listen to Schafer and tone down some of the droning, repetitive profanity. We should do it by choice, not because they come down with an iron fist and make us do what they want their student body to do.

On robo goalie:
Yea, I agree.

Ben Rocky '04 wrote:

That does not mean that Atheltics rules are right, there actions were right, or that society is correct for worrying about some words.

It also doesn't mean that your values (and, allegedly, that of Linder's) should be all that matters. Other people have opinions and values, and don't agree with you. They think they're right just as you think you are. But, they are the ones who make the rules right now, and we have no choice but to follow them. Frankly, I think it's a small price to pay in the long run. Personally, I make sure I'm in the clear before I curse at games. If I get kicked out, I'm not going to like it, of course, but I won't argue that it's necessarily wrong.

This entire forum is composed of opinions. Im just stating mine, and defending my self.
If an usher tries to kick me out, they're gonna get an earful of more profanity. My friend Mike fought off an attempt to kick him out in the WMU game for screaming "foster" and having it mistook for "fucker". The ushers are not bright nor to they seem to think the policy is wrong. I intend to let them know what i think.

Ben Rocky '04 wrote:

This entire forum is composed of opinions. Im just stating mine, and defending my self.
If an usher tries to kick me out, they're gonna get an earful of more profanity. My friend Mike fought off an attempt to kick him out in the WMU game for screaming "foster" and having it mistook for "fucker". The ushers are not bright nor to they seem to think the policy is wrong. I intend to let them know what i think.

Wonderful! I am very interested in seeing what you tell Athletics.

Ill cya at Lynah then. Im in section G. where are you?

Ben Rocky '04 wrote:

Ill cya at Lynah then. Im in section G. where are you?

oh yea...... i sit with you....... my bad

Ben,

Society has a thing called standards. Just because you feel people shouldn't be offended by seeing you walk naked through campus ( "the human body's a beautiful thing!" ), doesn't mean that you're not gonna get your naked ass thrown in jail for exposing your kibbles and bits to the whole student body.

The community has chosen a set of community standards that's a best match to what the average person wants and is most fair to everyone. If you're still on this board 10, 15 years from now with a 4 year old daughter, we'll see if you still can't fathom why parents don't want their children hearing the word 'fuck'.

Try showing up in court one day and saying "I know I signed the contract saying I'd pay them back, and I know there was a verbal agreement, and I know that when you go into the loan department it has the rules displayed in a frame on the wall, but that doesn't mean they should enforce it!"

Come on, if you wanna think you should be able to swear, fine... but that doesn't mean that Lynah doesn't have the right to lay out their own rules and then they have to obligation to support them.

The thing I'll agree with is that the way they enforce them is pretty random. I'll also agree with the fact that people don't really realize it. Sure, it says it in 5 places, but it's said it in 5 places for years and they have often never cared - weeks or months go by without a noticeable tossing. How often does athletics actually follow through on their rules? Remember 'no fish'? How about 4:45 pm? Also, 3/4 of the time they pick out someone in the back row (easier to hear) and toss them, so the other 95% of the section doesn't know anything just happened.

What they *should* do, is have Arthur get everyone's attention (not just the standard ramble at the beginning of the game, but a "may I have your attention please" kinda thing). Laying out the fact that people WILL be tosses, and that Athletics has tossed out an average of xx people per game so far. Coach Schafer and that A.D. want you to loudly support our team with family-friendly language. Do it once a weekend for a semester, or every game for 4 or 6 games, and people'll get the message. But this half-hearted announcement and quiet, arbitrary enforcement doesn't seem fair to the average fan.

P.S. For this crowd, may be better to do it at the end of the 1st or beginning of the 2nd.



Post Edited (11-12-03 00:08)

[Q]I believe that the acapella to Rock-n-Roll Part 2/Gary Glitter grew out of the profanity crackdown. The AD forbade the band from playing it at the beginning of the 3rd because of the "f*** 'em up, f*** 'em up... I thought it was the '97-'98 season, but somebody please refresh my memory. In any case, the Faithful would have none of that, and all together, began to sing Gary Glitter. Now, it has taken hold, so when the band stops playing once the puck is dropped, the crowd fills in until the next stoppage in play.[/Q]

For the one or two games that the band stopped playing it, yup, the crowd took over. What also contributed was Schafer bringing the team out much later around 1998-1999... we used to be able to squeeze the whole song in twice through well before the puck was dropped.

I like to think of myself as a long-time fan of Cornell Hockey, proud of a strong program that's brought us all a lot to cheer about over the 36+ years I've been in Ithaca. I've been proud of the teams, proud of the coaches and support staff and proud of the fans.

Since my first years here, we've been especially proud of our creativity and fanaticism as fans. Prospects, coming to visit with their parents, are blown away by the Lynah atmosphere - so many fans at close range in a small space. Lynah and the Lynah Faithful are things of which we should ALL be proud. The atmosphere helps "sell" our program to the prospects and their parents.

My opinion (and it's just that) is that vulgarity in the cheers is neither creative nor necessary, and that Coach Schafer is right to ask the fans to cut it out. It doesn't add to the positive statement that most of us want to make about Cornell Hockey. He's taking responsibility for a program that we all should want to be proud of, and asking us to keep our language clean enough to be proud of. That's not asking a lot.

The warnings have been posted and made clear. The enforcement has been uneven, but the message has been steady - profanity can get you kicked out of Lynah. It's not that hard to use the cleaner versions of the cheers, and doing so doesn't spoil my evening at the rink. The Coach asked for our help on this, and I'm willing to go along with his request. It seems like a pretty small thing to do for a program that continues to mean so much to me.

That's just my opinion, I could be wrong... I'll leave the "Freedom of Speech" arguments to the Moot Court Room and work on creative cheers for Lynah.

Ken '71

Delta-
As I have stated before, I know there are rules, I know they are printed on the back of my ticket, and I know they are enforced. I know that it is a private space and that they can and may kick me out and confiscate one of my season tickets.
I've heard about these community "standards" of which you speak of. I have taken a government or phil class or two that discussed at length the concept of profane speach.
I was raised in Lynah. I grew up hearing nasty things being said to the players on the other team. To be honest, that harsh language that I heard since I was 2 didn't cause cancer or make me a terrible person with no morals and a tendancy to steal or lie or use crack.
I am excercising my right to attack the policy & athletics for :

1) the policy itself as it governs us too much and angers people as a result, leading them to violate it
2) their failure to fairly enforce the policy

They can legally and morally do what they want. I know I cannot change this, but this forum is for lynah faithful members to state their opinions.
Clearly, a vast majority of former faithful and current townie side ticket holders feel that swearing sets a poor example of our school, and corrupts their wives and children.
Yea, constant profanity is incredibly moronic, but letting loose sometimes with some expletives doesn't dammage our reputation horrifically.
The concept of swearing being harmful and evil is just a conservatively minded myth. Get over your stupid moral code and worry about bigger problems society has. Those who whine about harsh langauge being inappropriate for children at hockey games should first worry about how much harm a puck could cause a kid, and then take a step back and see the other problems society has that threaten their children: guns, drugs, bad teachers, child abuse, lead paint, violent video games & movies, crossing streets & alcohol.

All I want is people to realize that swearing is such a foolish issue for athletics to waste their time on. Kick drunk people out of Lynah, or people who people who throw bottles on the ice, or people who show up a period late for games or shove their way to their seats. These are real problems, not made up ones.

Ben Rocky '04 wrote:Get over your stupid moral code and worry about bigger problems society has. Those who whine about harsh langauge being inappropriate for children at hockey games should first worry about how much harm a puck could cause a kid, and then take a step back and see the other problems society has that threaten their children: guns, drugs, bad teachers, child abuse, lead paint, violent video games & movies, crossing streets & alcohol.

All I want is people to realize that swearing is such a foolish issue for athletics to waste their time on. Kick drunk people out of Lynah, or people who people who throw bottles on the ice, or people who show up a period late for games or shove their way to their seats. These are real problems, not made up ones.

Your analogies make no sense. If I were the mayor my job would be to solve problems like guns, drugs, etc. If I were the athletic director at a university my job would be, in part, to make sure that the viewing environment at home games was civil and enjoyable for as much of the crowd as possible. And if I were a volunteer usher at a Cornell hockey game it would be my job to toss out drunks AND people who throw things on the ice AND shove people AND (drum roll) people who can't control themselves enough to keep from cursing at the f'ing rink.

Well, I have been kicked out of a game before. That was in my freshman year. And yeah.. I did think that it was utterly cruel cause it was tradition and it was part of the lyrics. But to claim that lyrics are an important part of Lynah tradition worth defending doesn't make sense to me anymore. Lynah tradition is showing up for games, believing in your team and of course cheering loudly and creatively.

Ben, I'd be the first to say that I'm no longer one of the other 1000 people you claim are in Lynah that use those vulgarities and get away with it. Cos I figured it potentially denies me of a chance to cheer my team on.. so why bother and have to make even more noise about it after getting tossed?

Rules are a reflection of generally accepted standards. I personally will be fine either way, with or without the strictness of enforcement. But I do feel that if nothing is done to somewhat control the more than just exuberant lads out there... and if unsuspecting freshies do actually think that it's tradition *silly me*.. What kind of message are we trying to give to other people. That the faithful collectively ratifies the use of such language? These rules don't get in the way of me being able to exercise my rights as a faithful.. That's to cheer my team on...

PS: On a side note.. Creative cheers/chants without any of those magic words are still coming out. My personal fav from the WMU weekend.. "Foster! Australian for Sieve!"



Post Edited (11-12-03 01:58)

bigredapple-
Learn to read.
I said that parents should worry about more important things then swearing that their offspring deal with.
A good athletic director should worry about the ice being the proper temp. and the team having working equpiment, not what fans are saying.
I said that the ushers should worry about more imporant things then swearing. They do a poor job of enforcing the current policies, so athletics should reduce the amount of rules they have, and the most foolish to me seems to be the one on swearing.

Ben...you're still missing the point.

Just because you think that swearing is not a problem and people shouldn't find it offensive, doesn't mean other people think that way.

Like DeltaOne said...maybe you think nudity is a beautiful thing. That doesn't mean we're going to stand to see your naked ass running all over campus.

As for not knowing that they kick people out for swearing...I can't imagine how that is possible. I remember people being tossed out for swearing quite regularly as early as the '99-'00 season. (There was this one guy who was a real bastard about it too...I think his name was Al. He seemed to take great pleasure in his job...)

Anyway, I think the point is, regardless of whether you think the rule is right or not, if you break it you should be willing to deal with the consequences. Do you think if you get busted for possession the courts are going to care that you think people should be free to experiment with whatever mind altering substances they feel like??

Also, getting back to what sparked this little flamewar... Regardless of whether the rule against swearing is stupid or not, Linder is a complete tool for crying to the Daily Sun about getting tossed from a game. He broke the rules and got caught. Deal with it.

Regarding "fair" enforcement: next time you get a speeding ticket, try telling the judge that your ticket shouldn't count because the cop didn't pull over every speeder on the highway that day. Unlike college, these sort of things don't work on a curve - it's not necessarily the fastest speeder who gets a ticket, nor the most vulgar fan who gets booted. Your behavior stands on its own merit. Did you break the rule? Yes. It doesn't matter at all what anyone else did or didn't do - take your lumps like an adult!

does Ben really deserve any more of our attention? Come on...its a CLEARLY stated rule...it was CLEARLY broken...and the guy was punished...end of story.

'But everyone else in the bar was underage and had fake ID's too...thats not fair to arrest me!!!' Tough...you got caught breaking a rule...deal with the consequences... And Ben, please spare us from your judgements on what proper morals or standards should be...

This all is nothing new. Late in Coach Mccutcheon's time at Lynah he made the same plea to fans (and was quoted in the sun) about cutting out the profanity. He in fact wouldn't allow his young daughters to the games at the time and a crackdown on crowd profanity ensued.

I'd agree it was enforced arbitrarily then as well- quite amusing to watch an usher wander into the then drunken mess of section B and pick one individual at random from amongst the horde that was all swearing at the same time. In fact, if everyone just pointed at the same person that person would go, whether they swore or not.

My take on this is suck it up and live with it if you want to go to the games - the issue is never going to go away. And this comes from someone who's favorite part of any cheer is being able to end it with "you suck" or "sucks." On the administration side of the house I know an athletics staffer who didn't like the policy either - but that was because he had to help kick people out and that was no fun for him. So it's no fun for anybody, but evidently necessary.

Hmm maybe we can turn Harvard's rink into Profanity East this year? Are they going to revoke our four-packs?

Ben --

Since you keep mentioning how you've been going to games since you were a little kid, I can only assume that you value this experience as a fan and that you would want the same experience for others. I had season tickets for 10 years while growing up in Ithaca, and even though I now go to school on the other side of the country, I still pay attention to every game and consider myself a lifelong fan of Cornell hockey. Apparently, both of our parents were willing to take us to games in spite of the profanity that occured in the rink (which many people seem to agree was less prevalent in the 80s and early 90s than it is today). What about kids whose parents are uncomfortable or unwilling to take their kids to games because of the profanity that now occurs? Is it worth it to you to be able to spew forth vulgarities at games at the expense of enabling other kids to experience the formative experience as a fan that you claim to value? Is it worth disrespecting Schafer as a coach and as a parent? If so, you're doing a disservice to the team you claim to be such a huge fan of, not to mention that your sense of entitlement is rather nauseating.

On the INCH newsstand scroll, the Daily Sun article header is "Ahhhh ... See ya!"

Ben,

It's fine of you to say that you don't think swears are such a big deal - each his own. But what's not fine of you it so assume that you have the right to be indignant about the fact that other people do. If you can say your personal opinion is that swears aren't all that bad, then you have to respect the people who say that they are pretty bad. And furthermore, you have absolutely no right, as a college senior, to stand there and tell other people what they should be worried about as far as raising their children. Don't stand there and say what parents should and shouldn't care about... get over yourself. Just because they care about their kids being exposed to vulgar language doesn't mean they're not also taking care of the "more important stuff." So live your own life and drop the holier than thou, "I know what other people should care about" air you have. And respect the wishes of the community as a whole without being pissy about it.

Robb,

That's a good point about fair enforcement and it's well taken. The only thing I'll say is there are honestly probably a good amount of people in Lynah who don't realize that swearing is actively being enforced... while no one would doubt that about speeding. I think the AD should make a slightly more visible attempt to stress that. Have Schafer come out before the first regular season game each year. Or have Arthur make an announcement in a way that it actually sounds vital. Or something. Of course, I think this whole article did it this year... for the vast majority of people.

Jenny ( i assume)-
As I said before, i view swearing as a really dumb thing for parents to worry about. Mine didn't, yours didn't. My opinion on the language is just that, an opinion.
I THINK that parents should bring their kids and not worry about a few words. Its just that simple.

Making an example out of one just seems like an attempt to send a message to that one student that they are the token one punished for thousands of violations of the policy that evening, where as everone else just says "sucks for them" and goes on. The one person kicked out gets to not view the game they paid for and no one else reduces their swearing. What a waste of time. If they threw out a few hundred people (not that im saying this is a good idea) then people would start to notice & change their language, but a quota of 5 a game does nothing in a crowd of 1500 plus undergrads.

Delta-
Stop preaching & get over yourself. I have the right to be angry about whatever I want and write about it, just as you do. I have the right to state my opinions on what is profane and useless language, just as you do. You seem to think that parents should care about swearing, I disagree. We both seem to have a great quantity of opinions on parenting, so please note that it is not just me who thinks I know how people should raise their kids. Don't be a hypocrite.
If my OPINIONS are that offensive to you, stop reading my postings.

Are you kidding me?? I know of at least 2 of my friends and 6 people in section E that got kicked out the last weekend of home games. They weren't making an example of him! They were punishing him.

unfortunately I haven't...

Well, college students have never and will never have much life experience to draw from when pontificating. That didn't stop me from being a loudmouth know-nothing 21 year old, and it won't stop anybody else. Nor should it -- everybody's entitled to their own opinion. But at the same time, children should not be shocked when their rhetoric gets the auto-delete from their elders. In the same vein, I'm sure 60 year olds listen to 40 year olds and think, "sophomoric idiots."

So, obviously it isn't remotely tangential to a free speech issue and to conflate it with those issues is, in a word, assinine. But as somebody who has a kid, there are MUCH more important things to get indignant about than whether the fan next to your little pride and joy is cussing out the ref. Your little darling says worse things to its friends, ten seconds after leaving the house for the bus each morning. Big deal.

Real mature, kid.

You have proved my point! Why punish a few people? It doesn't change the behavior of the masses.
If Athletics wanted to seriously reduce swearing, as opposed to just angering a few who they do kick out, they should go all out. As is, all they are doing is having their ushers act like PC-police and annoy and anger a few people, while failing at backing up their own policies, which leads me to call for their repeal.

The PC police may not stop the swearing and it may anger some. But it may comfort some in the fanbase who object to the swearing. So the AD has made the subjective judgement that the the steps to curb swearing, however ineffective, are worth the trouble. His decision. And in a sense, he may have it right. I doubt students will stop going to hockey games because of the language enforcement. They may bitch about it or argue that it should be more fairly applied, but they will probably continue to go. OTOH, the family of four who is sensitive to the issue may decide to stop going. Now I'm sure that this year the school would have no trouble filling the seats of those who stopped going because of language. But that may not always be the case.

There needs to be a smiley that is eating popcorn while he watches this drama unfold....

Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH

Would someone please let me know if anybody ever says anything new on this thread again? Thanks so much.

Beeeej

Jeffrey "Beeeej" Anbinder '94 wrote:

Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH

Would someone please let me know if anybody ever says anything new on this thread again? Thanks so much.

Beeeej

But if you don't want to read the thread, you don't have to click on it!!!

wow this thread is long and i have to sleep.
just wanted to give myself a nod with this topic b/c last year (2 years out of school) I sat in A and C a few times and for some reason students stopped doing the "you goon cheer" - I noticed this and loudly remedied it. pretty sure it was last year but it may have been 2001 - these years in med school all blend together

as for profanity I am always one in favor of freedom of speech but if you know you are going to get tossed and you wish to watch the hockey game then dont say asshole or fuck 'em up. ESPECIALLY when u can see the gustapo right next to ya looking at your lips. i say save the asshole'ing and the fuck'ing for after the game (no pun intended, sorry to offend ) - what is 2.5 hrs of using creative cheers and near-curses instead of obsenity that is known to be banned.
I also dont see the need to go off on this guy so badly but whatever. i missed about 20 posts. LGR! this weekend

How much you wanna bet that this article will make a difference?

Also, I do think the tossing has made a difference. A few times they pick someone right from the middle of the section and then people definitely cut it down after that.

Btw, Ben, I never told parents what to care about. I merely said they can care about whatever they want, and obviously some (many?) care about swearing. I didn't judge their parents or say if they were right to do so or not. I simply pointed out that many do, and that we should respect the community standard and the AD policies that stem from that.

You're not only telling parents what to care about while raising their kids, but then are indignant about the rules set forth so far as thinking that punishing people from breaking them is inappropriate.

Sheez...go away for a day, and look what can happen to a thread. Yeah, Beeej, we seem to go through this every 2 years or so...and it has been going on for longer as Arik says. But like our hockey team, the fanbase and forum population also has a certain rate of turnover. So let 'em have at it.

For the record, I went through a period of arguing exactly what Ben Rocky is arguing. One of my favorite movie lines is from "South Park: Bigger, Longer, & Uncut": "Remember what the MPAA says: Horrific and deplorable violence is ok as long as you don't say any naughty words." After a while, I just became more accepting of the fact that many, many people get wound up about hearing what they consider to be filthy language. That, and really, I care more about watching hockey than changing that part of society.

I remember on my freshman floor, non-hockey fans (some call them "facetimers" were talking about why going to games at Lynah is such an attraction. One of the draws was simply put, "you can go and swear really loudly." And that fact was the one that actually garnered more interest in the group that was discussing it. It was then when I realized that I might be a little more interested in the hockey than a good number of my fellow students in the stands. I'm no psychology major, but perhaps some who relish participating in the profanity, do so because in a small way, it feels good to do something "bad" and that environment is a place where they can "be bad" and feel safe in their anonymity. Or so they thought.

After the now-famous Schafer speech (he gave 2 I believe...one to the season ticket purchasers during the ticket buying and one on-ice) we saw the hiring of the "gray-hats." When they came along, boy-howdy did the young CHDF ever explode. The term "Gestapo" was used. I heard rumors that employees would sit across the ice with binoculars and attempt to read lips during certain cheers and radio across to the police to pull people out. We were pissed at that crackdown. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't some of us threaten a boycott of a home game (or period) because of it? Or sitting down for a period in B or something like that?

But then most of us realized 2 things: 1) not even 20% of the student section reads this forum, or even cares that it exists. 2) We really, really, really like CU Hockey. So much that we didn't want to miss any of it, nor did we want to hurt our team, or deflate them by not cheering.

My biggest problem now isn't with ejecting people. It is what that power does to certain ushers. Just what we need: changing cranky, mean ushers into cranky, mean, ushers on a power-trip. One particular bearded man in a red windbreaker prodded me in the back row of A once and said "I'm watchin' you!" Hey, just because I'm tall and loud doesn't mean I'm going to start spewin' F-bombs, and I calmly told him so. He threatened to boot me for sassin' back. And I was harassed by him several times that season for nothing that should've even been an issue. Prick.

I now sit in sections where there are families and children nearby, and I try to curb my own language out of respect for those around me. You know what? Doing so hasn't lessened my enjoyment of the games, and it hasn't given me cancer either.

So, to sum up, I agree with what Ben Rocky is saying. But I also respect my fellow fans' wishes. Basically, I don't care enough anymore to fight. There are more important battles to wage.

One more thing:
[q]What they *should* do, is have Arthur get everyone's attention (not just the standard ramble at the beginning of the game, but a "may I have your attention please" kinda thing). Laying out the fact that people WILL be tosses, and that Athletics has tossed out an average of xx people per game so far. Coach Schafer and that A.D. want you to loudly support our team with family-friendly language. Do it once a weekend for a semester, or every game for 4 or 6 games, and people'll get the message. But this half-hearted announcement and quiet, arbitrary enforcement doesn't seem fair to the average fan.[/q]
Oh, that would work. All that would do would provoke a giant, organized effort to get 2,000 people to drop a loud, unified F-bomb at an appropriate moment in Arthur's "no really....listen!" announcement. Because it would be hilarious.

With this talk of the Gestapo, isn't it time we deleted this thread?

Here you go DisplacedCornellian:





Post Edited (11-13-03 09:28)

FWIW I remember that one of the reasons Schafer wanted to curb swearing was because we lost a recruit due to that. I believe the year was 1997 and the kid's parents were horrified and refused to let the kid apply.

Now, irregardless of what you may think of those parents, we were hurting the team by swearing. And I ask what is more important to you - to cuss loudly, or Cornell Hockey.

---

On the other hand everything Rich H said about the Powertrip ushers is true. It wasn't all of them, but some really got a kick out of harassing people, even if they were not actually swearing. Other times, they randomly picked people, and I know that they were grabbing innocents more than a few times. Luckily, I sort of emit an innocent aura, so I never had problems myself.

Also, I did stop swearing when Schafer asked me to. It wasn't hard to switch F*em to R*em, Ref F* Sheep to "Baaa" and later "I'm blind..." etc. Plus, "Poop" sounds funnier than "Shit" anyway.

Felix Rodriguez wrote:

It wasn't hard to switch ... Ref F* Sheep to "Baaa" ...

I couldn't hear it from where I was sitting at Princeton, but someone claimed to have heard the band saying "the ref is overly promiscuous with sheep" or something to that effect. A great line, if it is in use.

big red apple wrote:

Felix Rodriguez wrote:

It wasn't hard to switch ... Ref F* Sheep to "Baaa" ...

I couldn't hear it from where I was sitting at Princeton, but someone claimed to have heard the band saying "the ref is overly promiscuous with sheep" or something to that effect. A great line, if it is in use.

While not the originator of the cheer, I've always been a big fan of the "The ref likes sheep. He really likes sheep. He likes them a lot. Baaaaaaah" variant.

Felix Rodriguez wrote:
Plus, "Poop" sounds funnier than "Shit" anyway.

In my experience, "Rip off his head and poo down the hole" gets one funny looks....

The profanity issue gets a mention in Heros and Villains this week:

[www.cornelldailysun.com]

[q]The bottom line is this: profane language is prohibited at hockey games. If that's a problem, take it up with the legislature -- but don't complain when the University enforces its own rules.[/q]

Bravo, Daily Sun--you're back in my own personal HEROES list.

Here's another slant on profanity summarizing several of the points that have been made in this thread.
[members.aol.com]

I think the Sun misses the point that while the "policy" is clearly stated, most of the complaints on this forum have been about the way it is applied. There doesn't seem to be a clear standard for the ushers to apply - which is not to say that Linder didn't violate the standard. If you ask each editor of the Sun and each usher for a clear definition of "profane" you're going to get 20 different answers.

As for the "VILLAINOUS filibusters", filibusters are not unconstitutional, Democrats do them too, and both parties are constantly wasting time and money. The Sun's editorial staff is always going to be a VILLAIN to me: one sided and rarely with a fact based argument.

Bill '94 wrote:
As for the "VILLAINOUS filibusters", filibusters are not unconstitutional, Democrats do them too, and both parties are constantly wasting time and money. The Sun's editorial staff is always going to be a VILLAIN to me: one sided and rarely with a fact based argument.

I don't want to turn this into a political thread, so I'll try to keep this as neutral as possible, but to be fair, the Sun editorial staff never said filibustering was villainous, just this particular one. That's an argument that's defensible and one that many more intelligent political commentators would take up. Agree or disagree, they weren't making the ridiculous blanket generalization that you thought they were.

That said, I dunno what the Sun's staff is doing by including it in a column where they have 3 lines to talk about anything. That doesn't do any political issue justice. And Bill, if you turn to the Sun for in depth, balanced political review, you're barking up the wrong species of plant altogether.



Post Edited (11-15-03 01:28)

Bill '94 wrote:
As for the "VILLAINOUS filibusters", filibusters are not unconstitutional, Democrats do them too, and both parties are constantly wasting time and money. The Sun's editorial staff is always going to be a VILLAIN to me: one sided and rarely with a fact based argument.

As if your right-wing neocon rants here are balanced?

DeltaOne, I agree almost entirely with what you said. I didn't mean to "ridiculously" imply the Sun was picking on all filibusters. Edit: Since filibusters are an allowable procedural ploy in the Senate - as are the methods the Democrats are using to keep the confirmation votes off of the floor - it seems odd to call the filibuster villainous. I feel like the Sun is implying that there is something underhanded or illegal about what the Republicans are doing. Perhaps the Sun should have focused on what I assume is their real issue: that they don't like the judges that have been nominated. I'm fine with that.
While their opinion on this one may be defensible, they don't present a defense. I realize Heroes and Villains is not a true opinion piece but more a summary of the entire week. Still, the Sun's regular editorials often lack a true argument. They are usually an opinion with a few cheap shots at the opposition thrown in. They would be more at home on this forum than in journalism.



Post Edited (11-15-03 14:01)

[www.thecrimson.com]

To be fair, Harvard's fans have attacked rink profanity in the two most effective ways possible. Not coming. Not cheering.

Bill '94:

DeltaOne, I agree almost entirely with what you said. I didn't mean to "ridiculously" imply the Sun was picking on all filibusters. Edit: Since filibusters are an allowable procedural ploy in the Senate - as are the methods the Democrats are using to keep the confirmation votes off of the floor - it seems odd to call the filibuster villainous. I feel like the Sun is implying that there is something underhanded or illegal about what the Republicans are doing. Perhaps the Sun should have focused on what I assume is their real issue: that they don't like the judges that have been nominated. I'm fine with that.

Well, I think you're going a bit strong - I don't think that the Sun's "villanous" always means illegal or underhanded. For instance, I don't think the whole Lynah thing shows the S.A. president to be either of those things. Just kinda stupid and ridiculous. Now I'm not saying those adjectives apply to the Republican filibuster, I'm just saying that "Villanous" just really means "annoying or stupid or wrong", but not necesssarily all of the above.

The complaint against the Republicans is mainly that they're using 30 hours of filibustering to complain about filibustering. It's like saying "how dare you call me names, you $#!^head!". It's not evil or wrong, it's just in it's way hypocritical. Now I can see how conservative Americans would support the move to 'bring attention' to the matter, but I'd think you can see how liberal Americans hear the Senate Republicans constantly complaining about the democratic filibuster, and then turning to a filibuster of their own as a means to protest it, seems kinda stupid.

Again, tone down your assumption on what "villanous" means, and I think you'll have less of a problem with the Sun's expression of their opinion - given the fact that they don't have room to defend it in that column.

Agreed.