When we play Penn State..

When we play Penn State, this is what we'll see. USCHO reports on the Penn State Board of Trustees approving the design of Pegula Ice Arena, their new hockey faculty. Eleven renderings of the inside and out. "Hockey Valley" The Penn State site has a similar story with different quotes.

David Harding
When we play Penn State, this is what we'll see. USCHO reports on the Penn State Board of Trustees approving the design of Pegula Ice Arena, their new hockey faculty. Eleven renderings of the inside and out. "Hockey Valley" The Penn State site has a similar story with different quotes.

The more difficult task for PSU is to decide what to do when Paterno dies.

Jim Hyla

The more difficult task for PSU is to decide what to do when Paterno dies.

Unfortunately they are going to have to do that sooner rather than later. Paterno passed away this morning. ESPN story

Shame he had to go out this way. Hopefully people will remember the good as well as the bad. RIP Joe.

mikek

Jim Hyla

The more difficult task for PSU is to decide what to do when Paterno dies.

Unfortunately they are going to have to do that sooner rather than later. Paterno passed away this morning. ESPN story

Shame he had to go out this way. Hopefully people will remember the good as well as the bad. RIP Joe.

They will. Its hard to negate the fact that he played a major role in making PSU one of the ten best state universities in the country. One act does not define the life of a man, especially one who did as much good as Joe Pa. RIP.

mikek

Jim Hyla

The more difficult task for PSU is to decide what to do when Paterno dies.

Unfortunately they are going to have to do that sooner rather than later. Paterno passed away this morning. ESPN story

Shame he had to go out this way. Hopefully people will remember the good as well as the bad. RIP Joe.

They will. Its hard to negate the fact that he played a major role in making PSU one of the ten best state universities in the country. One act does not define the life of a man, especially one who did as much good as Joe Pa. RIP.

css228

mikek

Jim Hyla

The more difficult task for PSU is to decide what to do when Paterno dies.

Unfortunately they are going to have to do that sooner rather than later. Paterno passed away this morning. ESPN story

Shame he had to go out this way. Hopefully people will remember the good as well as the bad. RIP Joe.

They will. Its hard to negate the fact that he played a major role in making PSU one of the ten best state universities in the country. One act does not define the life of a man, especially one who did as much good as Joe Pa. RIP.

css228

mikek

Jim Hyla

The more difficult task for PSU is to decide what to do when Paterno dies.

Unfortunately they are going to have to do that sooner rather than later. Paterno passed away this morning. ESPN story

Shame he had to go out this way. Hopefully people will remember the good as well as the bad. RIP Joe.

They will. Its hard to negate the fact that he played a major role in making PSU one of the ten best state universities in the country. One act does not define the life of a man, especially one who did as much good as Joe Pa. RIP.

But maybe two acts will?

Some people would wonder when and how much it's ok to joke about this.

The onion doesn't:
[www.theonion.com]

One act. An act that was a cover up of the rape of a minor that enabled the rape of many more. Fuck Joe Paterno and his memory. I don't care how much money Penn State was able to raise off of the sham that was the Paterno Way.

BMac
Some people would wonder when and how much it's ok to joke about this.

The onion doesn't:
[www.theonion.com]

Onion's videos are uniformly good. The print stuff is sophomoric.

ugarte
One act. An act that was a cover up of the rape of a minor that enabled the rape of many more. Fuck Joe Paterno and his memory. I don't care how much money Penn State was able to raise off of the sham that was the Paterno Way.

Countless students got a world class education because of what he did for the university. I understand that he failed his duty and I'm not trying to excuse him of that, but many people are better off today because Paterno coached at Penn State. All the good he did does not cancel out his failings, but his failings do not cancel out the good either.

css228

ugarte
One act. An act that was a cover up of the rape of a minor that enabled the rape of many more. Fuck Joe Paterno and his memory. I don't care how much money Penn State was able to raise off of the sham that was the Paterno Way.

Countless students got a world class education because of what he did for the university. I understand that he failed his duty and I'm not trying to excuse him of that, but many people are better off today because Paterno coached at Penn State. All the good he did does not cancel out his failings, but his failings do not cancel out the good either.

Shiver.

css228

ugarte
One act. An act that was a cover up of the rape of a minor that enabled the rape of many more. Fuck Joe Paterno and his memory. I don't care how much money Penn State was able to raise off of the sham that was the Paterno Way.

Countless students got a world class education because of what he did for the university. I understand that he failed his duty and I'm not trying to excuse him of that, but many people are better off today because Paterno coached at Penn State. All the good he did does not cancel out his failings, but his failings do not cancel out the good either.

He didn't fail his duty. His supervisors failed THEIR duty. He reported the incident to his supervisors and THEY covered it up. And that includes the current governor of PA, who was the local DA at the time.

It's like this: you reprimand and discharge the soldiers that abused the prisoners at Abu Ghraib. But you ream out the generals who tried to cover it up. But you expect the lesser officiers in between to use the chain of command to fix the problem.

Jeff Hopkins '82

css228

ugarte
One act. An act that was a cover up of the rape of a minor that enabled the rape of many more. Fuck Joe Paterno and his memory. I don't care how much money Penn State was able to raise off of the sham that was the Paterno Way.

Countless students got a world class education because of what he did for the university. I understand that he failed his duty and I'm not trying to excuse him of that, but many people are better off today because Paterno coached at Penn State. All the good he did does not cancel out his failings, but his failings do not cancel out the good either.

He didn't fail his duty. His supervisors failed THEIR duty. He reported the incident to his supervisors and THEY covered it up. And that includes the current governor of PA, who was the local DA at the time.

It's like this: you reprimand and discharge the soldiers that abused the prisoners at Abu Ghraib. But you ream out the generals who tried to cover it up. But you expect the lesser officiers in between to use the chain of command to fix the problem.

I have a feeling you'd have a different opinion if it was your son getting sodomized. Joe Paterno was an extremely powerful man in that community. When he became aware of what was happening he should have put an end to it immediately and personally. Don't give me this chain of command crap. Joe Paterno COULD have and SHOULD have done more.

Why do people argue about this on the internet?

More than most, it's a subject on which one's opinion of the man and his legacy will not change.

Jordan 04
Why do people argue about this on the internet?

More than most, it's a subject on which one's opinion of the man and his legacy will not change.

Jeff Hopkins '82

css228

ugarte
One act. An act that was a cover up of the rape of a minor that enabled the rape of many more. Fuck Joe Paterno and his memory. I don't care how much money Penn State was able to raise off of the sham that was the Paterno Way.

Countless students got a world class education because of what he did for the university. I understand that he failed his duty and I'm not trying to excuse him of that, but many people are better off today because Paterno coached at Penn State. All the good he did does not cancel out his failings, but his failings do not cancel out the good either.

He didn't fail his duty. His supervisors failed THEIR duty. He reported the incident to his supervisors and THEY covered it up. And that includes the current governor of PA, who was the local DA at the time.

This is only true if you believe that Paterno was unaware of the FIRST Sandusky showering incident. Since it was investigated by the police - even though the DA declined to press charges - I do not believe that at all. Every circumstantial fact points to a cover-up. Nothing about the official story makes any sense at all except in the context of an institution carefully protecting itself at the expense of an unknown number of children.

Paterno hired the people who were his alleged superiors and could have had them fired as well. Please don't lower yourself to making the claim that Joe Paterno was a footsoldier, following the orders of his superiors. Mike McQueary barely gets to make that claim.

ugarte
One act. An act that was a cover up of the rape of a minor that enabled the rape of many more. Fuck Joe Paterno and his memory. I don't care how much money Penn State was able to raise off of the sham that was the Paterno Way.

kicksave
I have a feeling you'd have a different opinion if it was your son getting sodomized. Joe Paterno was an extremely powerful man in that community. When he became aware of what was happening he should have put an end to it immediately and personally. Don't give me this chain of command crap. Joe Paterno COULD have and SHOULD have done more.

I debated leaving this alone because I have had these discussions and disagreements for two months now. I have lived the aftermath of the Sandusky scandal. I am currently a law student at Penn State. I think that those on the outside underestimate the hurt that such statements have caused among the student body and the University community. It is a manifestation of mob mentality and a lack of critical thinking. One knows truly that one has a winning argument when to make a point, one must descend to profanity. We get the point. You are outraged. No one is more outraged than the campus.

I know the facts. I have read the grand jury testimony. I know that the media loves sensationalism driven by a 24-hour news cycle and a need to fill the airways with novel drivel each day, so, with little evidence to support otherwise, the Sandusky scandal has become a media spectacle in which Paterno was part of an organized coverup. I believe that it is likely that Curley and Spanier were involved in such a coverup. It was their responsibility to investigate the situation fully to ensure the safety of the children that this University allows to enjoy the benefits of its facilities as a charitable endeavor with community-based groups.

I am tired of this illogical argument that there was a coverup. Spanier, Curley, and Paterno had a strained relationship. Spanier and Curley attempted numerous times to oust Paterno. The tension was something that the media loved, until it did not fit into their narrative. The media has portrayed Paterno as the most powerful man on campus, but that confuses celebrity for effective power. However, why am I concerning my statements with facts, when most people want to have a knee-jerk reaction, grab their pitchfork, and condemn this University and this great man. You are free to do that. It does not mean that the rest of us must, or even should, find you wise in so doing.

I know that neither the media's nor your erudite analysis of the situation wants to concern themselves with legal realities, but Paterno could have "done more" only with considerable legal risk to himself and his family. Statutory regimes govern such accusations and investigations. Mandated reporters, as Paterno was in this situation, are instructed only to inform the executive of their organization who is their immediate superior. He did that by notifying Spanier and Curley. The burden is upon them to carry out an investigation or ensure that an investigation occurs to discern the veracity of the accusations. The inconvenient fact for those who argue that Paterno should have done more is that if he acts outside the confines of what he should do it can be viewed either as a violation of due process and the University could be sued with Paterno being considered as a state actor, or Paterno possibly would have exposed himself for tortious claims of defamation of character, slander, and libel against him as a private citizen. The risks were high legally and why should Paterno have assumed the worst? No one knows the exact content of what McQueary told Paterno. Many think that he did not describe the behavior in the shower in a manner that captured the sheer disgusting nature of Sandusky's conduct. Additionally, similar allegations were leveled against Sandusky before Paterno knew about the conduct. Spanier and Curley investigated the situation, engaged police forces, and child protective services. Experts in the field of identifying and preventing child abuse found no evidence of abuse during the first investigation. However, Paterno should have known better, according to your rationale, done more, and risked ruining irreparably and wrongfully the reputation of someone who may have been innocent. When people begin to behave as you desire and assume the worst of others with no concrete evidence, the world will have become an even sadder place than one in which an athletic director and university president, driven by greed and revenue from a football program, cover up one of the most heinous acts imaginable.

You mischaracterize and undersell how much Paterno assisted Penn State. He was not merely a fundraiser, as you imply, he earned his money laboring for this University, and then reinvested it to help the University, its students, and the surrounding community. He funded the establishment of its Classics department during his early years here. He endowed several grants and scholarships that fund the education of economically underprivileged students. He paid for the expansion of the University's existing library and construction of the Paterno Library. He negotiated with Nike that they would match monetarily his gifts to the University on several occasions. He saw in this small land-grant institution in rural Pennsylvania the potential to become a national and global university. He realized that potential. Penn State has emerged as a top-50 university in the United States and a top-100 university in the world. Penn State outranks globally most other B1G and some Ivy-League universities because of his dedication to this campus and its students. He did this through forging a community through its athletic programs that was dedicated to his Grand Experiment that borrowed the ethos of the Ivy League, that he learned during his time at Brown, and grafted it successfully onto this large public university. Penn State has the most consistent standards with respect to academic requirements for admission between athletes and non-athlete students, and it has the highest graduation rate of athletes of all major sports universities. Penn State outperforms consistently Notre Dame, Michigan, Cal, and Stanford by both metrics. Penn State's peers with respect to both standards are found more easily among the Ivies and the College of William and Mary than large-sports universities. This commitment to academic standards and academic supremacy over athletic success was inculcated at Penn State because of Paterno. Paterno enabled countless underprivileged students to earn and benefit from a world-renowned education from Penn State. The fact that he did not act far beyond what a reasonable person would do in one situation cannot outweigh the benefits that he bestowed upon the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania and the nation, despite how dedicated the media is to balancing such considerations against his legacy.

I hope that you did not allow your misplaced outrage against Paterno to become animus toward the students and the University. The University dealt with the media descending upon it for two weeks straight. I doubt many can fathom what that does to the mindset of a university and its students. I was a senior at Cornell when the series of suicides prompted national ridicule and suspicion of the University. What these students at Penn State suffered because one man did the unthinkable before they even arrived on campus is infinitely worse. Its students are innocent in this. Judging and ridiculing them because of the acts of one despicable man perpetuates the cycle of harming the innocent. You did not insult the students or University in your statements, but such rage recently has been accompanied by general ridicule of a great University and its dedicated student body. The greatest irony is that those who behave in this manner may be harming again those who suffered at the hands of Sandusky because it is not beyond reasonable expectation that some of them are among the thousands who attend Penn State.

The notion that one would feel differently were it one's child is a straw man. Anyone who cares for his child as expected would feel differently. That is why the judicial system is impartial, objective, and detached from the passions of those who are too close to have unbiased judgments. Also, who are you to know how one would react better than the families themselves? Many of the family members of the abused decried the Board of Trustees's decision to fire Paterno before their was any reason to believe that he behaved wrongly. Perhaps you are willing to discount their opinions, I am not. I know not what they or their loved ones suffered.

I know that none of this will change your opinion, but the tone of the posts and the topic material seemed amiss with the generally collegial and respectful tone of conversations on ELF.

As for the topic of the post regarding not the alleged villainy of Paterno, but the possibility of Cornell playing Penn State, I hope that the Faithful will not carry with them the vitriol toward Penn State. I, like css228, hope that a rivalry or frequent series will develop between Cornell and Penn State. I attended the Neumann-Penn State outdoor game at Citizens Banks. I liked the event, but most of the Neumann fans in the area where I sat during the game and in the crowd surrounding me as my group of friends left were disrespectful, rude, and offensive toward Penn State. It is not hard to imagine what recent events at Penn State they would invoke to offend Penn State fans. Sadly, it casts a bad pall over the evening. I am used to Cornell and Michigan hockey fans who taunt like no others about the situations and play on the ice, but treat the fans with a certain level of respect (despite mocking their level of hockey play, poor goaltending, intelligence of their hockey players, lack of good looks of their players, and ugly parents of the hockey players) that was lacking among the Neumann fans. Penn State fans did what they do best and treated Neumann fans with respect. I think that Neumann was glad to have a victory over such a large, globally significant, and athletically prominent university, but that doesn't excuse poor sportsmanship, undifferentiated profanity at fans in the stands (well beyond the typical "asshole" chants that one hears at most sporting venues when a fan of the opposing team finds himself surrounded by fans of the other team), or offensive comments about pedophilia. Penn State fans have their reputation, and now, in my mind, sadly, Neumann fans have theirs. I hope that the Faithful will treat Penn State with as much respect as we do other universities and not invoke these events to mock Penn Staters or their team. There are some things that are clever and witty. Jokes and jeering of this nature are not. I didn't have a doubt that the Faithful would behave admirably until I read the above posts.

Bravo, Aaron. Bravo.

Thank you, Aaron. After all he did for the Commonwealth, I think at least it was fitting Beaver Stadium got one last white out for JoePa.

Aaron M. Griffin
I think that those on the outside underestimate the hurt that such statements have caused among the student body and the University community. It is a manifestation of mob mentality and a lack of critical thinking. One knows truly that one has a winning argument when to make a point, one must descend to profanity. We get the point. You are outraged. No one is more outraged than the campus.

You couldn't possibly understand how little I care if the people who idolized Paterno are offended at people pointing out that their hero was not only human, but deeply flawed and compromised. The mob has formed not because the world couldn't wait to take down Paterno but because it became clear how far the image of the man was from the reality. For all the good that he certainly did, this is not a solitary black mark on a pristine record but a BP-style oil spill, covering everything it touches in muck.

I know the facts. I have read the grand jury testimony. I know that the media loves sensationalism driven by a 24-hour news cycle and a need to fill the airways with novel drivel each day, so, with little evidence to support otherwise, the Sandusky scandal has become a media spectacle in which Paterno was part of an organized coverup. ... I am tired of this illogical argument that there was a coverup. Spanier, Curley, and Paterno had a strained relationship. Spanier and Curley attempted numerous times to oust Paterno. The tension was something that the media loved, until it did not fit into their narrative. The media has portrayed Paterno as the most powerful man on campus, but that confuses celebrity for effective power.

Organized coverup? You act like this was an elaborate conspiracy rather than what most people assume: that there was a tacit agreement to keep the record clean and mouths shut. Plausible deniability for all that crumbles at even a cursory glance at a timeline of the events. This is a "media spectacle" because the charges are grotesque; this isn't wailing over violations over the sham of amateurism in college sports: it is a necessary exposure of the University and Big-Time Football as self-preservationist institutions and the power they wield. As Jeff himself noted, even the current Governor has a lot of questions to answer.

As for the rivalry between Spanier/Curley and Paterno, how old is that vintage? Because the Sandusky allegations go back to 1998, when Sandusky - a highly respected defensive coordinator - mysteriously retired from Penn State and never coached anywhere again.

As for whether celebrity translates into actual power, I'll let that sit there on its own, basking in its own silliness. There is a line that even the most powerful can't cross, but celebrity (and financial value to the university) do a lot to establish where that line is.

I know that neither the media's nor your erudite analysis of the situation wants to concern themselves with legal realities, but Paterno could have "done more" only with considerable legal risk to himself and his family. Statutory regimes govern such accusations and investigations. Mandated reporters, as Paterno was in this situation, are instructed only to inform the executive of their organization who is their immediate superior. ...

He didn't press McQueary for details. He waited and then, at best, relayed a watered down version up the chain. He never asked a follow-up question again. And all of this presumes that in in 2002, he didn't remember what happened in 1998.

I hope that you did not allow your misplaced outrage against Paterno to become animus toward the students and the University. ...

I am indifferent to the larger PSU community except to the extent that they feel the need to elaborately excuse Paterno and/or the university.

the tone of the posts and the topic material seemed amiss with the generally collegial and respectful tone of conversations on ELF.

Hee!

As for the topic of the post regarding not the alleged villainy of Paterno, but the possibility of Cornell playing Penn State, I hope that the Faithful will not carry with them the vitriol toward Penn State. ... I hope that the Faithful will treat Penn State with as much respect as we do other universities and not invoke these events to mock Penn Staters or their team. There are some things that are clever and witty. Jokes and jeering of this nature are not. I didn't have a doubt that the Faithful would behave admirably until I read the above posts.

I'd prefer no pedo jokes myself - the kids on the ice had nothing to do with Sandusky or the powers that protected him - but I wouldn't expect a whole lot of restraint. Without any real animus towards Penn State, those kids are going to take some abuse because, as Clint Eastwood said in Unforgiven, "'Deserve's' got nothin' to do with it."

I'm going to bow out here, probably, because I'm not sure what else I can say that wouldn't be redundant.

First I want to thank Aaron for his post. Since this happened I have felt that PSU handled this poorly, and I mean once it hit the press, not just the original cover-up. Paterno has been condemned for moral failings, but not because he broke any laws or PSU regulations. After reading his Washington Post interview/article I'm left with my belief that the problem was/is the PSU administration, not Paterno. I can easily believe that a 75 year old man in 2002 would be totally flabbergasted when confronted with such an allegation. He did what he thought was right, and what everyone in administration probably told him was right; he told his superiors. Even if you don't believe that was enough, it was what the law said he should do. You might say that if he couldn't deal with these types of situations, then he shouldn't be a head coach. You're probably correct, and I think he believed that, and felt quitting his head coaching position was the right thing to do, and he did that.

How PSU treated him, in my mind, was terrible. They fired him with a note at 10 PM to call the vice chairman of the board. I woldn't do that to my newest employee, say nothing of someone who worked for me 61 years. His wife's quote was, “After 61 years he deserved better,” she snapped. “He deserved better.”

I can't imagine any of us haven't had one or more situations where we wish we hadn't gone a little further than just doing what we had to do. We can put this man down but in the end he was faced with a situation that he could not believe, and he went to get guidance from the people he was supposed to trust. In the end he realized he should have done more, and maybe realized that times have sped past him, so he did what he should have done, and he quit. Would I have liked him to do more, yes; do I know that I would have done more than he did, no I don't.

There are situations where we are faced with moral and legal problems, sometimes we do what's needed legally, sometimes we take further steps. I don't feel like I can be the one to criticize someone for doing the legally correct thing. I'll put my criticism to those who were not morally or legally correct, there are enough of them around.

Let's say that there's someone who has worked under you for decades, someone that you personally hired, and personally mentored and groomed as your successor. At times your relationship with each other was strained because of the tremendous stress of your high powered jobs. But you've been in the trenches together, shared amazing success and dark failure.
You are 75 years old. You have seen the world change so much in your lifetime. The amount of information available is astounding. Even though you are 75, you are not a doddering old fool. You are at the top of your profession and you have been around the block. It is not 1955. Nothing is flabbergasting in this day and age.
Someone close to you tells you that your protegee has done something horrible to a young child. Something so horrible that he may not have even told you the details of the transgression but enough information that you know you need to make a report to your superiors.

Now if this old gentleman is me, I would go to my employee's house, put my hands around his throat, give him the death stare that would kill a weaker man, and in no uncertain tones explain to him that this behavior will not go on ever again. Period. If the administration is not going to do anything about it, so be it. If the authorities aren't going to do anything about it, so be it. But not under my control. No way. No how. This man would be scared to pull his pants down to take a crap much less go on to continue his abominations.

Joe Paterno never confronted Jerry Sandusky. Why are you guys defending that?

Jim Hyla
I can easily believe that a 75 year old man in 2002 would be totally flabbergasted when confronted with such an allegation.

He did what he thought was right, How PSU treated him, in my mind, was terrible. They fired him with a note at 10 PM to call the vice chairman of the board. I woldn't do that to my newest employee, say nothing of someone who worked for me 61 years. His wife's quote was, “After 61 years he deserved better,” she snapped. “He deserved better.”

a) Change Joe Paterno to The Pope and you've described the problem on a worldwide scale.
b) Hand-wringing over the method of firing is sidebar stuff like complaining that the defendant deserved to be cuffed in front not behind his back because his kids were watching. Also the last time the administration went to Joe's house with mixed news, Joe told them to get off his lawn.

Aaron,

When faced with the assertion that Joe Paterno almost single-handedly transformed Penn State from a second rate land grant school into a world class research university I felt Ignorant and Incredulous.

I,I,I

That so many of the posts in this thread focus on opinion and so few enlighten the reader with fresh information, your post stands alone. (It was more revealing than the Sports Illustrated article that first brought this assertion to the forefront for me.) Thank you for giving me a glimmer of the impact that Joe Paterno had on PSU.

Sports Illustrated is the heavy artillery that makes the bad guys sit up and take notice. Papers such as the Harrisburg Patriot-News did good work laying out the severity of the issues but it amounted to small arms fire with little effect on Fort Joe. Much of what SI did was re-report what Pennsylvania papers developed. SI gets the glory; the PA papers get flack for being disloyal. The Pulitzer committee should take notice.

[deleted]