Why the hate/dislike of Cornell?

I'm a semi-regular reader of the web page www.uscho.com and am slightly surprised/dismayed by the blog posting: "How to keep Cornell Out" refering to what combination of teams winning and losing will keep the Red out of the Tourney. Why? Is it our style of play, are teams scared to face us?? We beat UND, UNH, tied BU...we are a good team, that I believe hasn't hit its stride all year...maybe this past weekend was different and it looks like the Nash's have woken up a bit.

Why would a national blogger write about how to get us out, and follow it up with a "Get Yale out too"? I know the ECAC is not a power conference, but its better then the CHA and AHA.

Flattering or frustrating?

Bob

I'm guessing he's just playing the same game a lot of people here are trying to find combinations to effect certain outcomes. Jayson's an RPI guy so it's natural he'd look at the ECACH candidates.

There's no hate/dislike there on Jayson Moy's part. He's a solid ECAC fan through and through and I know that he would love for Cornell to make a deep run in the NCAAs. That blog post is just to demonstrate that technically Cornell has not clinched a spot in the NCAAs. People do this kind of thing every year, "Are you SURE team X hasn't clinched yet?" "yes - see, here's this one weird series of upsets that make it theoretically possible for them to miss out."

It just so happens this year that the top 6-7 (can't recall exactly) teams HAVE clinched, and Cornell and Yale happen to be 2 teams that are very close to clinching at #8 and #9, so that's the region where the curiosity lies. It's obvious that #14 hasn't clinched yet, so no such discussion of them is necessary. Also, as I mentioned, Jayson is a huge ECAC fan, so it's natural that his interest is primarily in whether the ECAC teams are in or out - not that he hopes they are out.

Now on the USCHO forum...plenty of Cornell hate goes on over there! Jealousy is not pretty.

Just look at what the second topic on this forum is. Why do many of you hate Harvard? That's why many others say they hate us. The fact is that behavior like that has been happening for a long time. I've probably opened a can of worms, but if you go around hating someone, you shouldn't be surprised that there may be others who hate you. Sad but true.

Screw BU, Harvard Sucks, how 'bout them Goofers!, etc.

My bad...I didn't realize that the author is an ECAC guy.....I envisioned some hockey writer in St. Paul trying to figure out a way to eliminate any team east of Lansing, MI.

Why not just title it: "Bubble teams, Who's in, who's out? Cornell"

Seemed too specific and negative.

"Never mind"

LGR!

I was struck by that headline too, but when I went back to Moy's prior blog posts, I found he had a whole list of tentative conclusions about who's in/ who's out. He'd tentatively concluded both Cornell and Yale are definitely in (along with a number of other conclusions). He then invited readers to send in counter-examples to his conclusions, as part of mutual education. I wouldn't be surprised if someone sent him the "How to keep Cornell out" scenario. He seemed to be just honestly correcting his prior post. Some folks are spending a LOT of time on that pairwise predictor.

Here's the original post that I think Moy was responding to:

[www.uscho.com]

Jim Hyla
Just look at what the second topic on this forum is. Why do many of you hate Harvard? That's why many others say they hate us. The fact is that behavior like that has been happening for a long time. I've probably opened a can of worms, but if you go around hating someone, you shouldn't be surprised that there may be others who hate you. Sad but true.

I don't hate Harvard. I just like to point out the objective fact that they suck.

To be hated is not a bad thing. How many people hate Brown hockey or the Pittsburgh pirates? When you chronically suck, people tend to not care about you either way. Take it as a complement!!

As a Yankee fan, the label "Evil Empire" is a badge of honor: bring it on, losers. The more fans who hate Cornell, the more likely it is we are doing well.

toddlose
To be hated is not a bad thing. How many people hate Brown hockey or the Pittsburgh pirates? When you chronically suck, people tend to not care about you either way. Take it as a complement!!

I hate Brown hockey. I think they play dirty and we always have guys get hurt when we play them. (But I think your general point is still valid.)

Kyle Rose
As a Yankee fan, the label "Evil Empire" is a badge of honor: bring it on, losers. The more fans who hate Cornell, the more likely it is we are doing well.

I remember reading that back in 2002 after the Patriots won the Super Bowl fans on Bourbon St. spent a lot of time chanting "Yankees Suck" rather than celebrating their team's victory. As a Yankee fan That just warmed my heart.

Josh '99

toddlose
To be hated is not a bad thing. How many people hate Brown hockey or the Pittsburgh pirates? When you chronically suck, people tend to not care about you either way. Take it as a complement!!

I hate Brown hockey. I think they play dirty and we always have guys get hurt when we play them. (But I think your general point is still valid.)

They also have obnoxious 10 year old fans

toddlose
To be hated is not a bad thing. How many people hate Brown hockey or the Pittsburgh pirates? When you chronically suck, people tend to not care about you either way. Take it as a complement!!

Nobody hates Cornell football.

Trotsky

toddlose
To be hated is not a bad thing. How many people hate Brown hockey or the Pittsburgh pirates? When you chronically suck, people tend to not care about you either way. Take it as a complement!!

Nobody hates Cornell football.

I'll confess to not being especially fond of it over the years.

judy

Josh '99

toddlose
To be hated is not a bad thing. How many people hate Brown hockey or the Pittsburgh pirates? When you chronically suck, people tend to not care about you either way. Take it as a complement!!

I hate Brown hockey. I think they play dirty and we always have guys get hurt when we play them. (But I think your general point is still valid.)

They also have obnoxious 10 year old fans

But their rink has a great perch for heckling the goalie. And making the goalie's six year old cousin cry. (I know, I'm going to hell.)

judy

Josh '99

toddlose
To be hated is not a bad thing. How many people hate Brown hockey or the Pittsburgh pirates? When you chronically suck, people tend to not care about you either way. Take it as a complement!!

I hate Brown hockey. I think they play dirty and we always have guys get hurt when we play them. (But I think your general point is still valid.)

They also have obnoxious 10 year old fans

So did Bemidji - kids firing the Snickers bars back at Jim. And they could be a possible first round opponent this year.

Jayson has always .... highly disliked .... Cornell. Which is fine, since I always ... highly disliked RPI ... until they hired Seth Appert. Anyone who is human has biases. It is possible, however, to act professionally regardless.

judy

Josh '99

toddlose
To be hated is not a bad thing. How many people hate Brown hockey or the Pittsburgh pirates? When you chronically suck, people tend to not care about you either way. Take it as a complement!!

I hate Brown hockey. I think they play dirty and we always have guys get hurt when we play them. (But I think your general point is still valid.)

They also have obnoxious 10 year old fans

So does Princeton. So do WE, while we're at it.

polar

judy

Josh '99

toddlose
To be hated is not a bad thing. How many people hate Brown hockey or the Pittsburgh pirates? When you chronically suck, people tend to not care about you either way. Take it as a complement!!

I hate Brown hockey. I think they play dirty and we always have guys get hurt when we play them. (But I think your general point is still valid.)

They also have obnoxious 10 year old fans

So does Princeton. So do WE, while we're at it.

No no no. Their 10-year-old fans are obnoxious. Our 10-year-old fans are vociferous.

adamw
Jayson has always .... highly disliked .... Cornell. Which is fine, since I always ... highly disliked RPI ... until they hired Seth Appert. Anyone who is human has biases. It is possible, however, to act professionally regardless.

Ahhh, this could very well be because the first year Jayson was writing he picked Colgate to beat us in the first round of the playoffs. That was the "Weder" series (1996). Cornell fans made fun of him for years after that.

How about Klump's comment at the end of the ECAC blog today on USCHO?


Jason Klump:
Cornell fans can't win with class, as usual. Chanting "winning team, losing team" as they point back and forth.

RedAR
How about Klump's comment at the end of the ECAC blog today on USCHO?


Jason Klump:
Cornell fans can't win with class, as usual. Chanting "winning team, losing team" as they point back and forth.

There was a wound, we rubbed some salt in it. My grandfather says it helps the healing process...

RedAR
How about Klump's comment at the end of the ECAC blog today on USCHO?


Jason Klump:
Cornell fans can't win with class, as usual. Chanting "winning team, losing team" as they point back and forth.

Gotta tell ya - I'm as rabid a Red fan as anyone here, but I didn't like it either, and I think that our later applause as Union was announced as runner up was probably unnoticed by simultaneously cheering Union (and other) fans.

The winning team/losing team thing is OK during regular season, but in a championship it's just shitty. Some of those players were skating off the ice for the last time, and some parents were watching with tears in their eyes. Maybe you have to be an athlete who takes off his jertsey for the last time to understand that feeling. I wish we didn't do it.

TimV

RedAR
How about Klump's comment at the end of the ECAC blog today on USCHO?


Jason Klump:
Cornell fans can't win with class, as usual. Chanting "winning team, losing team" as they point back and forth.

Gotta tell ya - I'm as rabid a Red fan as anyone here, but I didn't like it either, and I think that our later applause as Union was announced as runner up was probably unnoticed by simultaneously cheering Union (and other) fans.

The winning team/losing team thing is OK during regular season, but in a championship it's just shitty. Some of those players were skating off the ice for the last time, and some parents were watching with tears in their eyes. Maybe you have to be an athlete who takes off his jertsey for the last time to understand that feeling. I wish we didn't do it.

Tradition is tradition. There was nothing wrong with what we did. We earned the victory, and we earned the right to celebrate. Should the hockey team not hoist the trophy and skate toward the glass? Should they not throw their gloves and sticks and helmets on the ice? Should they not pose for a team picture? Where do you draw the line -- it's okay to do "winning team/losing team" in all games except the championship? What about the semis? We stood and applauded Union in a sportsmanlike manner. I have no regrets and make no apologies about our conduct vis-a-vis "winning team/losing team".

HeafDog
We earned the victory, and we earned the right to celebrate.

Not trying to start anything (but it probably will).

But what exactly did you (meaning the cornell fans as a whole) to ensure victory? Sure you supported the team, and you yelled really loud. I would hardly say that those things entitle you to say that you "earned the victory" is stretching the truth just a little wouldn't you say?

And this isn't a "I hate cornell" thing. I feel the same way about all sports fans, friendly or unfriendly, who say similar things. "We" should only be used to refer to other fans in my opinion.

More on topic, I don't like the "Winning team, losing Team" thing, but those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. Carry on as you see fit.

Tim
You should have been with us at the Crowne when we were waiting for the team after the game.
We cheered and congratulated every Union player as they returned. There were none of their
fans waiting for them.
Doug

Dpperk29

HeafDog
We earned the victory, and we earned the right to celebrate.

Not trying to start anything (but it probably will).

But what exactly did you (meaning the cornell fans as a whole) to ensure victory? Sure you supported the team, and you yelled really loud. I would hardly say that those things entitle you to say that you "earned the victory" is stretching the truth just a little wouldn't you say?

I think you severely underestimate how much this group of players do everything in their power to win for the Lynah Faithful. In Albany, the Cornell fans drowned out what I expected to be a formidable Union crowd, considering the noise level during the semi-final game. But the stick salutes, the board crashings, the victory laps, hell even our goalie's helmet, show how much a role the Cornell fans play out there as the 7th man. Clarkson has great fans too that actually show up to away games, but I would not doubt for a second that every Cornell hockey fan would have been crushed had this group of seniors gone 4 years without so much as a single title.

Good to hear, Doug. Wish I was there.

Doug Dickerson
Tim
You should have been with us at the Crowne when we were waiting for the team after the game.
We cheered and congratulated every Union player as they returned. There were none of their
fans waiting for them.
Doug

I was going to comment on this as well. I'll just add the following:

As this was going on one Union fan (he was wearing a Union hockey windbreaker) who may well have been the father of a Union player (many of the Union players were arriving with their families) looked right at me as I was clapping, and said, "Classy guys. Very classy,", and patted me on the shoulder. He was definitely not being sarcastic at all. It was clear he really appreciated the fact that while we were obviously waiting there to greet and congratulate our own players, we were treating the Union players with respect.

HeafDog

TimV

RedAR
How about Klump's comment at the end of the ECAC blog today on USCHO?


Jason Klump:
Cornell fans can't win with class, as usual. Chanting "winning team, losing team" as they point back and forth.

Gotta tell ya - I'm as rabid a Red fan as anyone here, but I didn't like it either, and I think that our later applause as Union was announced as runner up was probably unnoticed by simultaneously cheering Union (and other) fans.

The winning team/losing team thing is OK during regular season, but in a championship it's just shitty. Some of those players were skating off the ice for the last time, and some parents were watching with tears in their eyes. Maybe you have to be an athlete who takes off his jertsey for the last time to understand that feeling. I wish we didn't do it.

Tradition is tradition. There was nothing wrong with what we did. We earned the victory, and we earned the right to celebrate. Should the hockey team not hoist the trophy and skate toward the glass? Should they not throw their gloves and sticks and helmets on the ice? Should they not pose for a team picture? Where do you draw the line -- it's okay to do "winning team/losing team" in all games except the championship? What about the semis? We stood and applauded Union in a sportsmanlike manner. I have no regrets and make no apologies about our conduct vis-a-vis "winning team/losing team".

So I take it you see no difference between hoisting the trophy, being joyful, and saluting your fans, which are all directed at teammates and supporters, as opposed to a taunt directed at the other side. Really?

Jason Klump's reaction more accurately reflects the opinions of neutral observers who even more than our opponents are the object of the question about hate/dislike. If something you do is traditionally obnoxious, it is indeed a tradition. But it's still obnoxious non the less and generates hate and dislike. Be arrogant, if that is your thing, but the question posed in this thread does have certain answers that reasonable people can understand.

andyw2100

Doug Dickerson
Tim
You should have been with us at the Crowne when we were waiting for the team after the game.
We cheered and congratulated every Union player as they returned. There were none of their
fans waiting for them.
Doug

I was going to comment on this as well. I'll just add the following:

As this was going on one Union fan (he was wearing a Union hockey windbreaker) who may well have been the father of a Union player (many of the Union players were arriving with their families) looked right at me as I was clapping, and said, "Classy guys. Very classy,", and patted me on the shoulder. He was definitely not being sarcastic at all. It was clear he really appreciated the fact that while we were obviously waiting there to greet and congratulate our own players, we were treating the Union players with respect.

I believe you. And clearly you are deservedly proud of his reaction. Why hide your light under a bushel? Relatively few people witnessed the classiness displayed. That other thing was put on display for the whole arena. Think those few Union people present at the hotel will tell all the others at the arena and fix it all up?

TimV

andyw2100

Doug Dickerson
Tim
You should have been with us at the Crowne when we were waiting for the team after the game.
We cheered and congratulated every Union player as they returned. There were none of their
fans waiting for them.
Doug

I was going to comment on this as well. I'll just add the following:

As this was going on one Union fan (he was wearing a Union hockey windbreaker) who may well have been the father of a Union player (many of the Union players were arriving with their families) looked right at me as I was clapping, and said, "Classy guys. Very classy,", and patted me on the shoulder. He was definitely not being sarcastic at all. It was clear he really appreciated the fact that while we were obviously waiting there to greet and congratulate our own players, we were treating the Union players with respect.

I believe you. And clearly you are deservedly proud of his reaction. Why hide your light under a bushel? Relatively few people witnessed the classiness displayed. That other thing was put on display for the whole arena. Think those few Union people present at the hotel will tell all the others at the arena and fix it all up?

I don't think there's anything that needs fixing. I really don't think the majority of the Union fans are going to have their impression of Cornell fans influenced very much by whether or not we did "Winning Team / Losing Team" after the game.

I do think the players and their families who were applauded by the opposing teams' fans as they came back to their hotel will remember that a whole lot more than they remember "winning team / losing team", if they were even aware of it in the first place.

Amen. It's sports and it's a cheer we do after every win...probably not the nicest thing to do when it's the final game for the opposing team but it's just excited fans yelling and cheering. I guess that next time we as fans want to win with class we should make sure to all collectively remove our top hats and take a moment of silence for the losing team while readjusting our bow ties and polishing our monocles with our embroidered handkerchiefs. Perhaps a few taps of our strolling canes on the ground in recognition of a job well done by the other team...

andyw2100

TimV

andyw2100

Doug Dickerson
Tim
You should have been with us at the Crowne when we were waiting for the team after the game.
We cheered and congratulated every Union player as they returned. There were none of their
fans waiting for them.
Doug

I was going to comment on this as well. I'll just add the following:

As this was going on one Union fan (he was wearing a Union hockey windbreaker) who may well have been the father of a Union player (many of the Union players were arriving with their families) looked right at me as I was clapping, and said, "Classy guys. Very classy,", and patted me on the shoulder. He was definitely not being sarcastic at all. It was clear he really appreciated the fact that while we were obviously waiting there to greet and congratulate our own players, we were treating the Union players with respect.

I believe you. And clearly you are deservedly proud of his reaction. Why hide your light under a bushel? Relatively few people witnessed the classiness displayed. That other thing was put on display for the whole arena. Think those few Union people present at the hotel will tell all the others at the arena and fix it all up?

I don't think there's anything that needs fixing. I really don't think the majority of the Union fans are going to have their impression of Cornell fans influenced very much by whether or not we did "Winning Team / Losing Team" after the game.

I do think the players and their families who were applauded by the opposing teams' fans as they came back to their hotel will remember that a whole lot more than they remember "winning team / losing team", if they were even aware of it in the first place.

You may both be right, but I am with Tim here. It may be funny to do the taunt during the season, but it was rude and unnecessary in Albany. We are often jerks with our cheers. We shouldn't be jerks quite so often.

marty

andyw2100

TimV

andyw2100

Doug Dickerson
Tim
You should have been with us at the Crowne when we were waiting for the team after the game.
We cheered and congratulated every Union player as they returned. There were none of their
fans waiting for them.
Doug

I was going to comment on this as well. I'll just add the following:

As this was going on one Union fan (he was wearing a Union hockey windbreaker) who may well have been the father of a Union player (many of the Union players were arriving with their families) looked right at me as I was clapping, and said, "Classy guys. Very classy,", and patted me on the shoulder. He was definitely not being sarcastic at all. It was clear he really appreciated the fact that while we were obviously waiting there to greet and congratulate our own players, we were treating the Union players with respect.

I believe you. And clearly you are deservedly proud of his reaction. Why hide your light under a bushel? Relatively few people witnessed the classiness displayed. That other thing was put on display for the whole arena. Think those few Union people present at the hotel will tell all the others at the arena and fix it all up?

I don't think there's anything that needs fixing. I really don't think the majority of the Union fans are going to have their impression of Cornell fans influenced very much by whether or not we did "Winning Team / Losing Team" after the game.

I do think the players and their families who were applauded by the opposing teams' fans as they came back to their hotel will remember that a whole lot more than they remember "winning team / losing team", if they were even aware of it in the first place.

You may both be right, but I am with Tim here. It may be funny to do the taunt during the season, but it was rude and unnecessary in Albany. We are often jerks with our cheers. We shouldn't be jerks quite so often.

Jerk.

I find the argument that "winning team, losing team" following the Championship game is in poor taste to be quite laughable.

Where does the imaginary line get drawn? Should we not have done "It's all your fault" after the empty-netter? After all, it was clear at that point that Union were losers, and [sob]some of them were playing their last games [/sob].

And frankly, with the way Union was being dominated, Gary Glitter to start the 3rd was probably unnecessary. Tradition, schmadition. Those poor guys were playing their last games.

And don't get me started on the Tubas. Starting up a "Die!" cheer with a few minutes to play in a Championship game, with Union practically on life-support. Classless.



To the victors go the spoils. And the victors gave Union a standing ovation when they were announced in the post-game ceremony.

A-ron
Amen. It's sports and it's a cheer we do after every win...probably not the nicest thing to do when it's the final game for the opposing team but it's just excited fans yelling and cheering. I guess that next time we as fans want to win with class we should make sure to all collectively remove our top hats and take a moment of silence for the losing team while readjusting our bow ties and polishing our monocles with our embroidered handkerchiefs. Perhaps a few taps of our strolling canes on the ground in recognition of a job well done by the other team...

Ascots. You forgot ascots.

Right on. The whole "classy vs. classless" fans label is one of my least favorite things to argue about ever on teh internets, and I think that's what finally drove me away from the USCHO forum. C'mon. I stopped caring about what fans thought about other fans a while ago, just like I rarely care about what other people think of me in other situations. I do what I think is right, but I'm not perfect with that. It's a game, and it's supposed to be fun. Anyone who gets upset over something so silly need to take a look at themselves. Sports fans need to get over themselves sometimes.

It's not even barely surprising that I agree wholeheartedly with Rich, but, seriously people, get over it: we taunt because we love.

And, anyway, this was Union's initiation. If they're going to play with the big boys, they'll have to take their lumps just like everyone else.

Scersk '97
It's not even barely surprising that I agree wholeheartedly with Rich, but, seriously people, get over it: we taunt because we love.

Except Harvard. We taunt them because they suck.

Josh '99

Scersk '97
It's not even barely surprising that I agree wholeheartedly with Rich, but, seriously people, get over it: we taunt because we love.

Except Harvard. We taunt them because they suck.

We were talking about this after you left this morning. I might even root for Harvard in some situations.

But never, never will I root for those pricks from Princeton. They I taunt because I hate.

Scersk '97

Josh '99

Scersk '97
It's not even barely surprising that I agree wholeheartedly with Rich, but, seriously people, get over it: we taunt because we love.

Except Harvard. We taunt them because they suck.

We were talking about this after you left this morning. I might even root for Harvard in some situations.

But never, never will I root for those pricks from Princeton. They I taunt because I hate.

Why Princeton?

I've come around to being able to root for Harvard or whoever else in the ECAC in nonconference games where them winning might potentially help our selection criteria. But once tournament time comes around? Fuck them. (I'll root for Yale next weekend though, or, in general, any ECAC team in the tournament as long as I don't have something specific against them, e.g. Bob Gaudet's douchebaggery.)

Josh '99
Why Princeton?

Oh, I doubt you'll ever need to root for Dartmouth in the tournament as long as Gaudet is coaching.

Why Princeton? Because it's a country club, not a university. Because it's a bastion of WASPy-ness that goes far beyond what even this unibrow-plucking, argyle-socks-wearin', non-self-hating WASP can take. Because I hate that fucking double-double rotating P.

marty
You may both be right, but I am with Tim here. It may be funny to do the taunt during the season, but it was rude and unnecessary in Albany. We are often jerks with our cheers. We shouldn't be jerks quite so often.

Winning team. losing team is part of the post game celebration. No reason to change it regardless of the venue. It's all in good hockey fun.

Now if we did it while the second place trophy was being awarded I'd feel differently.

I bet some of you folks think "third place team, fourth place team" during the consy is classless too.

Ugarte

Jerk.

George Fenneman here.

Man, I can't believe this thread when I took so much crap for being upset that we cheered "season's over" to Harvard after the quarters. Personally, I thought that was in poor taste, because it clearly only taunted them. This cheer is at least as much about our team, as it is against them. Also considering it's a regular cheer, and not just because their season is over, I don't find it offensive. Overall, I think we treated them nicely.

If only there was a way they could stop the pain of having to listen to us chant winning team losing team.

TimV

HeafDog
Tradition is tradition. There was nothing wrong with what we did. We earned the victory, and we earned the right to celebrate. Should the hockey team not hoist the trophy and skate toward the glass? Should they not throw their gloves and sticks and helmets on the ice? Should they not pose for a team picture? Where do you draw the line -- it's okay to do "winning team/losing team" in all games except the championship? What about the semis? We stood and applauded Union in a sportsmanlike manner. I have no regrets and make no apologies about our conduct vis-a-vis "winning team/losing team".

So I take it you see no difference between hoisting the trophy, being joyful, and saluting your fans, which are all directed at teammates and supporters, as opposed to a taunt directed at the other side. Really?

Jason Klump's reaction more accurately reflects the opinions of neutral observers who even more than our opponents are the object of the question about hate/dislike. If something you do is traditionally obnoxious, it is indeed a tradition. But it's still obnoxious non the less and generates hate and dislike. Be arrogant, if that is your thing, but the question posed in this thread does have certain answers that reasonable people can understand.

But, you see, that's exactly the thing. I don't really see it as much of a taunt at all. I see that cheer as almost entirely just a celebration of our victory. "There is no reality, only perception" applies extremely well here.

Look, you're talking to a guy who, albeit unfortunately, has not yet acquired RichH's ability to not care what other people think of him or the party he is with. A guy who unfortunately does sometimes veer toward the apologist end of the spectrum. A guy who actually donned an apron a couple of weeks ago. Heck, I don't even think I participated during a single one of the thirty-odd times unimaginative clowns on our side decided to trot out "Union... sucks" over the course of Saturday's game. But when I led "winning team/losing team" on Saturday (again, after having applauded Union), I didn't stand up on my seat, thinking, "Hey, let's rub it in Union's faces." No, I was thinking something along the lines of, "This is freaking sweet; I want to celebrate with my Cornell brethren with a tradition we all get a lot of enjoyment out of."

In the grand scheme of things, and compared with everything else we and other teams' fan bases do (not to mention the fact that we have been forced to clean up our act and our language over the past 15 years), that cheer is really pretty benign.

Scersk '97

Josh '99
Why Princeton?

Oh, I doubt you'll ever need to root for Dartmouth in the tournament as long as Gaudet is coaching.

Why Princeton? Because it's a country club, not a university. Because it's a bastion of WASPy-ness that goes far beyond what even this unibrow-plucking, argyle-socks-wearin', non-self-hating WASP can take. Because I hate that fucking double-double rotating P.

Princeton isn't any worse than Dartmouth as far as that goes, really.

(I actually kinda like the double double rotating P, but that's neither here nor there.)

Josh '99

Scersk '97

Josh '99
Why Princeton?

Oh, I doubt you'll ever need to root for Dartmouth in the tournament as long as Gaudet is coaching.

Why Princeton? Because it's a country club, not a university. Because it's a bastion of WASPy-ness that goes far beyond what even this unibrow-plucking, argyle-socks-wearin', non-self-hating WASP can take. Because I hate that fucking double-double rotating P.

Princeton isn't any worse than Dartmouth as far as that goes, really.

(I actually kinda like the double double rotating P, but that's neither here nor there.)

I'd just like a double-double. And a side of fries.

MMMMM. In-and-out Burger.

marty

andyw2100

TimV

andyw2100

Doug Dickerson
Tim
You should have been with us at the Crowne when we were waiting for the team after the game.
We cheered and congratulated every Union player as they returned. There were none of their
fans waiting for them.
Doug

I was going to comment on this as well. I'll just add the following:

As this was going on one Union fan (he was wearing a Union hockey windbreaker) who may well have been the father of a Union player (many of the Union players were arriving with their families) looked right at me as I was clapping, and said, "Classy guys. Very classy,", and patted me on the shoulder. He was definitely not being sarcastic at all. It was clear he really appreciated the fact that while we were obviously waiting there to greet and congratulate our own players, we were treating the Union players with respect.

I believe you. And clearly you are deservedly proud of his reaction. Why hide your light under a bushel? Relatively few people witnessed the classiness displayed. That other thing was put on display for the whole arena. Think those few Union people present at the hotel will tell all the others at the arena and fix it all up?

I don't think there's anything that needs fixing. I really don't think the majority of the Union fans are going to have their impression of Cornell fans influenced very much by whether or not we did "Winning Team / Losing Team" after the game.

I do think the players and their families who were applauded by the opposing teams' fans as they came back to their hotel will remember that a whole lot more than they remember "winning team / losing team", if they were even aware of it in the first place.

You may both be right, but I am with Tim here. It may be funny to do the taunt during the season, but it was rude and unnecessary in Albany. We are often jerks with our cheers. We shouldn't be jerks quite so often.

I agree with Marty. During the season when the teams are competing I have no problem with being the most obnoxious and rabid fans in hockeydom but at the end of a championship game we should leave animus aside and cheer our rivals win or lose. I know it is tough but I think it is the right thing to do unless it is Harvard....

Towerroad

marty

andyw2100

TimV

andyw2100

Doug Dickerson
Tim
You should have been with us at the Crowne when we were waiting for the team after the game.
We cheered and congratulated every Union player as they returned. There were none of their
fans waiting for them.
Doug

I was going to comment on this as well. I'll just add the following:

As this was going on one Union fan (he was wearing a Union hockey windbreaker) who may well have been the father of a Union player (many of the Union players were arriving with their families) looked right at me as I was clapping, and said, "Classy guys. Very classy,", and patted me on the shoulder. He was definitely not being sarcastic at all. It was clear he really appreciated the fact that while we were obviously waiting there to greet and congratulate our own players, we were treating the Union players with respect.

I believe you. And clearly you are deservedly proud of his reaction. Why hide your light under a bushel? Relatively few people witnessed the classiness displayed. That other thing was put on display for the whole arena. Think those few Union people present at the hotel will tell all the others at the arena and fix it all up?

I don't think there's anything that needs fixing. I really don't think the majority of the Union fans are going to have their impression of Cornell fans influenced very much by whether or not we did "Winning Team / Losing Team" after the game.

I do think the players and their families who were applauded by the opposing teams' fans as they came back to their hotel will remember that a whole lot more than they remember "winning team / losing team", if they were even aware of it in the first place.

You may both be right, but I am with Tim here. It may be funny to do the taunt during the season, but it was rude and unnecessary in Albany. We are often jerks with our cheers. We shouldn't be jerks quite so often.

I agree with Marty. During the season when the teams are competing I have no problem with being the most obnoxious and rabid fans in hockeydom but at the end of a championship game we should leave animus aside and cheer our rivals win or lose. I know it is tough but I think it is the right thing to do unless it is Harvard....

That's a fair point, but I think what people have been saying upthread is that "winning team /losing team" isn't "animus", it's just part of the routine.

We're Ivy League assholes in their view and the first two words render the third redundant, to them. Just as teens see no difference between an adult who's 40 and another who's 70 (actually, they say they can, but why bother), they see us and Harvard as the same pondscum who'll move their dad's blue collar job offshore and ruin their lives. We caused the financial meltdown, not them. We marry the trophy wives and live in Larchmont. IIRC correctly, that was the prevailing view of Penn in the 1979 tournament when Michigan State finally deflated the Ivy League bumble and that was the origin of the cheer, "That's all right, that's okay, you're gonna pump our gas some day."

All of which might be puzzling to a Kentucky student who considers Kentucky to be the premier (at least public) school in Tennnessee and all of a sudden in the company of Cornell or Wofford or Cal they find they're not flying first class but premier coach. If we taunt back, it needs to be erudite. They could punch us out in a bar, but if the weapon of choice is words, the Wilcats are dead.

HeafDog

TimV

HeafDog
Tradition is tradition. There was nothing wrong with what we did. We earned the victory, and we earned the right to celebrate. Should the hockey team not hoist the trophy and skate toward the glass? Should they not throw their gloves and sticks and helmets on the ice? Should they not pose for a team picture? Where do you draw the line -- it's okay to do "winning team/losing team" in all games except the championship? What about the semis? We stood and applauded Union in a sportsmanlike manner. I have no regrets and make no apologies about our conduct vis-a-vis "winning team/losing team".

So I take it you see no difference between hoisting the trophy, being joyful, and saluting your fans, which are all directed at teammates and supporters, as opposed to a taunt directed at the other side. Really?

Jason Klump's reaction more accurately reflects the opinions of neutral observers who even more than our opponents are the object of the question about hate/dislike. If something you do is traditionally obnoxious, it is indeed a tradition. But it's still obnoxious non the less and generates hate and dislike. Be arrogant, if that is your thing, but the question posed in this thread does have certain answers that reasonable people can understand.

But, you see, that's exactly the thing. I don't really see it as much of a taunt at all. I see that cheer as almost entirely just a celebration of our victory. "There is no reality, only perception" applies extremely well here.

Look, you're talking to a guy who, albeit unfortunately, has not yet acquired RichH's ability to not care what other people think of him or the party he is with. A guy who unfortunately does sometimes veer toward the apologist end of the spectrum. A guy who actually donned an apron a couple of weeks ago. Heck, I don't even think I participated during a single one of the thirty-odd times unimaginative clowns on our side decided to trot out "Union... sucks" over the course of Saturday's game. But when I led "winning team/losing team" on Saturday (again, after having applauded Union), I didn't stand up on my seat, thinking, "Hey, let's rub it in Union's faces." No, I was thinking something along the lines of, "This is freaking sweet; I want to celebrate with my Cornell brethren with a tradition we all get a lot of enjoyment out of."

In the grand scheme of things, and compared with everything else we and other teams' fan bases do (not to mention the fact that we have been forced to clean up our act and our language over the past 15 years), that cheer is really pretty benign.

Well said.

On any hierarchy, the line between resented and resenting is "us."

billhoward
We're Ivy League assholes in their view and the first two words render the third redundant, to them. Just as teens see no difference between an adult who's 40 and another who's 70 (actually, they say they can, but why bother), they see us and Harvard as the same pondscum who'll move their dad's blue collar job offshore and ruin their lives. We caused the financial meltdown, not them. We marry the trophy wives and live in Larchmont. IIRC correctly, that was the prevailing view of Penn in the 1979 tournament when Michigan State finally deflated the Ivy League bumble and that was the origin of the cheer, "That's all right, that's okay, you're gonna pump our gas some day."

All of which might be puzzling to a Kentucky student who considers Kentucky to be the premier (at least public) school in Tennnessee and all of a sudden in the company of Cornell or Wofford or Cal they find they're not flying first class but premier coach. If we taunt back, it needs to be erudite. They could punch us out in a bar, but if the weapon of choice is words, the Wilcats are dead.

[Point to appropriate players] Graduating...Not graduating...Graduating...

Jeff Hopkins '82

billhoward
We're Ivy League assholes in their view and the first two words render the third redundant, to them. Just as teens see no difference between an adult who's 40 and another who's 70 (actually, they say they can, but why bother), they see us and Harvard as the same pondscum who'll move their dad's blue collar job offshore and ruin their lives. We caused the financial meltdown, not them. We marry the trophy wives and live in Larchmont. IIRC correctly, that was the prevailing view of Penn in the 1979 tournament when Michigan State finally deflated the Ivy League bumble and that was the origin of the cheer, "That's all right, that's okay, you're gonna pump our gas some day."

All of which might be puzzling to a Kentucky student who considers Kentucky to be the premier (at least public) school in Tennnessee and all of a sudden in the company of Cornell or Wofford or Cal they find they're not flying first class but premier coach. If we taunt back, it needs to be erudite. They could punch us out in a bar, but if the weapon of choice is words, the Wilcats are dead.

[Point to appropriate players] Graduating...Not graduating...Graduating...

Very nice!

RedAR
How about Klump's comment at the end of the ECAC blog today on USCHO?


Jason Klump:
Cornell fans can't win with class, as usual. Chanting "winning team, losing team" as they point back and forth.

By the way, that Klump guy posts on the USCHO Forum in addition to writing for them, and he's a douche, so personally I'm especially disinclined to care what he thinks.

Towerroad

Jeff Hopkins '82

billhoward
We're Ivy League assholes in their view and the first two words render the third redundant, to them. Just as teens see no difference between an adult who's 40 and another who's 70 (actually, they say they can, but why bother), they see us and Harvard as the same pondscum who'll move their dad's blue collar job offshore and ruin their lives. We caused the financial meltdown, not them. We marry the trophy wives and live in Larchmont. IIRC correctly, that was the prevailing view of Penn in the 1979 tournament when Michigan State finally deflated the Ivy League bumble and that was the origin of the cheer, "That's all right, that's okay, you're gonna pump our gas some day."

All of which might be puzzling to a Kentucky student who considers Kentucky to be the premier (at least public) school in Tennnessee and all of a sudden in the company of Cornell or Wofford or Cal they find they're not flying first class but premier coach. If we taunt back, it needs to be erudite. They could punch us out in a bar, but if the weapon of choice is words, the Wilcats are dead.

[Point to appropriate players] Graduating...Not graduating...Graduating...

Very nice!

I'll bet John Wall makes more without a degree than John Jacques does with...

KeithK
I bet some of you folks think "third place team, fourth place team" during the consy is classless too.

I'm shocked - SHOCKED - by such a chant toward the end of a consy.

Beeeej

KeithK
I bet some of you folks think "third place team, fourth place team" during the consy is classless too.

I'm shocked - SHOCKED - by such a chant toward the end of a consy.

Lol - good one.

(PM me for details)

ugarte

Towerroad

Jeff Hopkins '82

billhoward
We're Ivy League assholes in their view and the first two words render the third redundant, to them. Just as teens see no difference between an adult who's 40 and another who's 70 (actually, they say they can, but why bother), they see us and Harvard as the same pondscum who'll move their dad's blue collar job offshore and ruin their lives. We caused the financial meltdown, not them. We marry the trophy wives and live in Larchmont. IIRC correctly, that was the prevailing view of Penn in the 1979 tournament when Michigan State finally deflated the Ivy League bumble and that was the origin of the cheer, "That's all right, that's okay, you're gonna pump our gas some day."

All of which might be puzzling to a Kentucky student who considers Kentucky to be the premier (at least public) school in Tennnessee and all of a sudden in the company of Cornell or Wofford or Cal they find they're not flying first class but premier coach. If we taunt back, it needs to be erudite. They could punch us out in a bar, but if the weapon of choice is words, the Wilcats are dead.

[Point to appropriate players] Graduating...Not graduating...Graduating...

Very nice!

I'll bet John Wall makes more without a degree than John Jacques does with...

A scale on which Kate Gosselin ranks higher than Steven Hawking might have some subtle flaws.

Trotsky
If only there was a way they could stop the pain of having to listen to us chant winning team losing team.

Which reminds me... the first time Cornell and Union met in an ECAC game, back in January '92 at Union, the Big Red swamped 'em by something like 8-1, and the Cornell fans didn't do "winning team, losing team." Oh no, no, they (all right, all right, WE) did, "Which team is Division I? Which team is Division III?" I will concede that rated rather low on the classiness meter. The next time the two teams met, at Lynah a month later, Union scored a stunning 6-4 win. And they proceeded to beat the Big Red with annoying regularity for about the next five years.

Give My Regards

Trotsky
If only there was a way they could stop the pain of having to listen to us chant winning team losing team.

Which reminds me... the first time Cornell and Union met in an ECAC game, back in January '92 at Union, the Big Red swamped 'em by something like 8-1, and the Cornell fans didn't do "winning team, losing team." Oh no, no, they (all right, all right, WE) did, "Which team is Division I? Which team is Division III?" I will concede that rated rather low on the classiness meter. The next time the two teams met, at Lynah a month later, Union scored a stunning 6-4 win. And they proceeded to beat the Big Red with annoying regularity for about the next five years.

Karma.

mnagowski

Give My Regards

Trotsky
If only there was a way they could stop the pain of having to listen to us chant winning team losing team.

Which reminds me... the first time Cornell and Union met in an ECAC game, back in January '92 at Union, the Big Red swamped 'em by something like 8-1, and the Cornell fans didn't do "winning team, losing team." Oh no, no, they (all right, all right, WE) did, "Which team is Division I? Which team is Division III?" I will concede that rated rather low on the classiness meter. The next time the two teams met, at Lynah a month later, Union scored a stunning 6-4 win. And they proceeded to beat the Big Red with annoying regularity for about the next five years.

Karma.

No, McCutcheon.

Scersk '97

mnagowski

Give My Regards

Trotsky
If only there was a way they could stop the pain of having to listen to us chant winning team losing team.

Which reminds me... the first time Cornell and Union met in an ECAC game, back in January '92 at Union, the Big Red swamped 'em by something like 8-1, and the Cornell fans didn't do "winning team, losing team." Oh no, no, they (all right, all right, WE) did, "Which team is Division I? Which team is Division III?" I will concede that rated rather low on the classiness meter. The next time the two teams met, at Lynah a month later, Union scored a stunning 6-4 win. And they proceeded to beat the Big Red with annoying regularity for about the next five years.

Karma.

No, McCutcheon.

I'm still pissed that Brian McCutcheon didn't yank Parris Duffus until it was too late. It was Parris's worst game at Cornell, and both his play and body language showed that it wasn't Parris's night. I remain mystified that McCutcheon failed to detect the defeated look on Parris's face that was obvious from the 13th row of Section G.

Scersk '97

mnagowski

Give My Regards

Trotsky
If only there was a way they could stop the pain of having to listen to us chant winning team losing team.

Which reminds me... the first time Cornell and Union met in an ECAC game, back in January '92 at Union, the Big Red swamped 'em by something like 8-1, and the Cornell fans didn't do "winning team, losing team." Oh no, no, they (all right, all right, WE) did, "Which team is Division I? Which team is Division III?" I will concede that rated rather low on the classiness meter. The next time the two teams met, at Lynah a month later, Union scored a stunning 6-4 win. And they proceeded to beat the Big Red with annoying regularity for about the next five years.

Karma.

No, McCutcheon.

Union having our number did stretch into the Schafer years, though.

cbuckser

Scersk '97
No, McCutcheon.

I'm still pissed that Brian McCutcheon didn't yank Parris Duffus until it was too late. It was Parris's worst game at Cornell, and both his play and body language showed that it wasn't Parris's night. I remain mystified that McCutcheon failed to detect the defeated look on Parris's face that was obvious from the 13th row of Section G.

Well, the alternative was Andy Bandurski, of the flopping. A freshman at the time, he was an unknown quantity and, therefore, seemed a viable alternative; in retrospect, Duffus, even at half capacity, was probably the better goalie.

Scersk '97
Andy Bandurski, of the flopping.

Watch it; you're talking about someone whose uniform number was just retired!

cbuckser
I'm still pissed that Brian McCutcheon didn't yank Parris Duffus until it was too late. It was Parris's worst game at Cornell, and both his play and body language showed that it wasn't Parris's night. I remain mystified that McCutcheon failed to detect the defeated look on Parris's face that was obvious from the 13th row of Section G.

[fingers in ears] lalalalalala, I can't hear you, that game never happened.

Speaking of Duffus, he came out of retirement to play 31 SECONDS of shutout hockey for the Fort Wayne Komets (P.C. Drouin plays there as well) this year. Weird.

Duffus Strikes Back

jtwcornell91

Scersk '97
Andy Bandurski, of the flopping.

Watch it; you're talking about someone whose uniform number was just retired!

Parris wore #1, and Andy wore #31.

cbuckser

jtwcornell91

Scersk '97
Andy Bandurski, of the flopping.

Watch it; you're talking about someone whose uniform number was just retired!

Parris wore #1, and Andy wore #31.

Oops, my bad. I thought [www.tbrw.info] indicated that Andy Bandurski wore #1 some seasons.

Interesting responses all. Now, just for fun, is there any irony at all in the part of the Tuba Cheer when we say "DIIIIIIIIIIIEEEEEEEEE" complete with the sound fading in the distance effect?

jtwcornell91

cbuckser

jtwcornell91

Scersk '97
Andy Bandurski, of the flopping.

Watch it; you're talking about someone whose uniform number was just retired!

Parris wore #1, and Andy wore #31.

Oops, my bad. I thought [www.tbrw.info] indicated that Andy Bandurski wore #1 some seasons.

Believe me, John, I wish my memories of the last four years of the McCutcheon regime were cloudier.

Winning team, losing team ......