WSJ Ivy League Sports Article
Posted by jputterman24
WSJ Ivy League Sports Article
Posted by: jputterman24 (---.c3-0.bkl-ubr2.sbo-bkl.ma.cable.rcn.com)
Date: May 29, 2009 08:51AM
Interesting article in today's relatively new WSJ Sports section. Nice picture of Lynah pictured in the paper as well. This link should work for a few days I think (the WSJ is picky about sharing with non-subscribers).
Can The Ivy League Get It's Game Back?
Can The Ivy League Get It's Game Back?
Re: WSJ Ivy League Sports Article
Posted by: Josh '99 (---.nyc.res.rr.com)
Date: May 29, 2009 09:11AM
One of Age's pictures, FWIW. I hope they asked for permission!
Re: WSJ Ivy League Sports Article
Posted by: CowbellGuy (Moderator)
Date: May 29, 2009 09:49AM
It's also on the third page of the weekend section today. The article starts on the first page of the weekend section.
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Re: WSJ Ivy League Sports Article
Posted by: Scersk '97 (---.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net)
Date: May 29, 2009 11:42AM
I think that the Ivies are quite competitive in every sport beyond basketball and football, the big-money sports of college athletics. The author cites those twenty years since the Harvard national championship in hockey: what about the 19 years, from the standpoint of 1989, between Harvard's championship and our 1970 championship? Other than Harvard in the 1980s and early 90s, and Cornell in the mid-2000s, no other Ivy hockey team has ever been "dominant" to the extent that you would expect it to make the NCAAs every year, much less to compete for a national title. When it's a two horses against many, those two horses aren't going to make the final sprint all that often. But, honestly, I think we're doing just fine.
(Now, am I concerned about the since-1991 deterioration of the ECAC? Even though the league seems to have stabilized a bit, sure, I'm concerned. But that's a different issue.)
Perhaps it makes me out of touch with the "win-at-all-costs" attitude of sporting today, but I wouldn't want the Ivies to make the capital and, well, "reputation capital" outlays necessary to compete in Division-I basketball or the FBS. Those two businesses (perhaps I should say "minor leagues"
are tainted by a money culture that tarnishes every championship won. Do I watch? Sure, but I also remember that the student-athlete "ideal" is quite different in those two cases. Perhaps that's why coverage of the NCAA basketball tournament so often latches onto the "underdog": because we love the notion of amateurs beating professionals.
(Now, am I concerned about the since-1991 deterioration of the ECAC? Even though the league seems to have stabilized a bit, sure, I'm concerned. But that's a different issue.)
Perhaps it makes me out of touch with the "win-at-all-costs" attitude of sporting today, but I wouldn't want the Ivies to make the capital and, well, "reputation capital" outlays necessary to compete in Division-I basketball or the FBS. Those two businesses (perhaps I should say "minor leagues"
are tainted by a money culture that tarnishes every championship won. Do I watch? Sure, but I also remember that the student-athlete "ideal" is quite different in those two cases. Perhaps that's why coverage of the NCAA basketball tournament so often latches onto the "underdog": because we love the notion of amateurs beating professionals.
Re: WSJ Ivy League Sports Article
Posted by: ugarte (---.z75-46-65.customer.algx.net)
Date: May 29, 2009 01:01PM
I'm a little embarrassed on behalf of anyone who would write "the schools’ academic standards for athletes appear to be dragging the league down" without irony.
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Re: WSJ Ivy League Sports Article
Posted by: ugarte (---.z75-46-65.customer.algx.net)
Date: May 29, 2009 01:46PM
Now that I've read the article, I think it is ridiculous. They treat the 1998 Princeton team as if it were at all representative of the preceding decades of Ivy hoops rather than the anomaly it was. Yes, the late '80's early '90's saw a lot of above-average Ivy basketball - but even at its best Ivy basketball was still weaker than the MAC during that period.
They treat a 16 seed on the women's side as somehow representative of a golden age of Ivy womens hoops when, in fact, it was as lucky as any first-round win by a 16 seed will be. Harvard happened to have a WNBA-quality player and Stanford's starting lineup was a wounded mess. Harvard was a 16-seed for god's sake! How good could the league have been?
I don't even know what to say about the lamentations about the title drought in hockey. The Ivies put three teams into the tournament this year and have gotten multiple bids fairly often in the recent past. We have only one final four team in the arbitrary period they chose but that hides how often Cornell has been in the final 8, twice an overtime goal away from getting the final four.
There were also three Ivies in the lax tournament and a stellar showing by Cornell in wrestling (both as a team and back to back years with individual champions) with multiple All-Americans from other Ivy schools both this year and last (IIRC).
They treat a 16 seed on the women's side as somehow representative of a golden age of Ivy womens hoops when, in fact, it was as lucky as any first-round win by a 16 seed will be. Harvard happened to have a WNBA-quality player and Stanford's starting lineup was a wounded mess. Harvard was a 16-seed for god's sake! How good could the league have been?
I don't even know what to say about the lamentations about the title drought in hockey. The Ivies put three teams into the tournament this year and have gotten multiple bids fairly often in the recent past. We have only one final four team in the arbitrary period they chose but that hides how often Cornell has been in the final 8, twice an overtime goal away from getting the final four.
There were also three Ivies in the lax tournament and a stellar showing by Cornell in wrestling (both as a team and back to back years with individual champions) with multiple All-Americans from other Ivy schools both this year and last (IIRC).
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Re: WSJ Ivy League Sports Article
Posted by: djk26 (---.nycmny.fios.verizon.net)
Date: May 29, 2009 04:00PM
ugarte, you put and better and more succinctly than I could, but this is exactly what I was thinking. I think the Ivy League (and of course Cornell) should be quite proud of its accomplishments over the past decade or so.
Re: WSJ Ivy League Sports Article
Posted by: TimV (---.hsd1.ma.comcast.net)
Date: May 30, 2009 10:46AM
Ugarte, I agree with djk26. How about you write a letter to the editor?
Re: WSJ Ivy League Sports Article
Posted by: ugarte (---.dyn.optonline.net)
Date: May 30, 2009 10:50AM
Maybe I will...
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Re: WSJ Ivy League Sports Article
Posted by: Beeeej (Moderator)
Date: May 30, 2009 11:27AM
Dooooooo iiiiiiit...!!
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Re: WSJ Ivy League Sports Article
Posted by: ugarte (---.dyn.optonline.net)
Date: May 30, 2009 11:26PM
Diiiiiiiid it. For the record "off the top of my head" means "as much as I was willing to fact-check myself"
So much for "succinctly."
I cc'd Andy Noel who has already responded to say thanks and to let me know that he is passing the letter on to the other Ivy AD's.
Now I know that they won't run the letter at full length but I hope that if the letter is edited to fit the paper that they don't butcher it and make me look like an idiot. For the record, that is SOP at the NY Times. I once had to deny them permission to print a letter because the edited version was such a hatchet job it no longer made the point I was trying to make. Two other friends weren't so lucky. A law school classmate - and former Secret Service agent - who wrote to contest the logic behind Clinton's invocation of "Secret Service privilege" had a very smart letter turned into word salad and another friend wrote about his own experience here.
Charles Star
On May 29 you ran an article titled "Can The Ivy League Get It's Game Back," lamenting the apparently sad current state of Ivy League sports. I can't imagine how you managed to look at the evidence available and miss the mark by so much.
To begin with, I am a little embarrassed on behalf of anyone who can write "the schools’ academic standards for athletes appear to be dragging the league down" without irony. I hope that the Ivy League never reaches the point that the tail wags the dog as ferociously as that sentence would suggest it should.
As to the specifics of Ivy League success, the article notes that the Ivies are not allowed to compete in the I-AA playoffs - but if they had, Harvard would have been a top 20 team, which is routinely where the Ivy champion ends the regular season. As nobody expects the Ivy league to compete with Florida and Oklahoma for a BCS berth, this is exactly where the Ivy champion should finish.
The real failing of the article, however, was in describing the Ivy League's place in non-football sports. First, by overstating the past success of the basketball teams and second by understating the success in the rest of the programs.
In basketball, you appear to treat the 1998 Princeton team as if it were at all representative of the preceding decades of Ivy hoops rather than the anomaly it was. Yes, the late '80's early '90's saw a lot of above-average Ivy basketball - but even at its best Ivy basketball was still weaker than the MAC. The Ivy League has not had a team in the Sweet 16 since 1979.
And you treat the 1998 Harvard women's team as somehow representative of a golden age of Ivy womens hoops when, in fact, it was as lucky as any first-round win by a 16 seed will ever be. Harvard happened to have a WNBA-quality player (Alison Feaster) and Stanford's starting lineup was a wounded mess. Harvard was a 16-seed for god's sake! How good could the league have been?
I don't even know what to say about the lamentations about the title drought in hockey. The Ivies put three teams into the tournament this year and have gotten multiple bids fairly often in the recent past. The Ivies have only one Final Four team over the arbitrary period chosen but Cornell has been in the Elite Eight 5 times since 2000, and was an overtime goal away from getting the final four in both 2005 and 2006. In addition, an Ivy League team played in the women's championship every year between 2002 and 2005.
The Ivy league routinely places multiple teams in the men's lacrosse tournament including three this year (Cornell was four seconds away from a national championship) and four in 2006. Cornell has become a national power in wrestling (two top 5 team finishes in the last four years and back to back years with individual champions) and Penn and Harvard have also had multiple All-American wrestlers over the last few years.
Once you add in All-Americans in men's and women's track and field and, I am sure, plenty of achievements that I can't think of off of the top of my head I think the athletics departments in the Ivy League have nothing to be ashamed about.
So much for "succinctly."
I cc'd Andy Noel who has already responded to say thanks and to let me know that he is passing the letter on to the other Ivy AD's.
Now I know that they won't run the letter at full length but I hope that if the letter is edited to fit the paper that they don't butcher it and make me look like an idiot. For the record, that is SOP at the NY Times. I once had to deny them permission to print a letter because the edited version was such a hatchet job it no longer made the point I was trying to make. Two other friends weren't so lucky. A law school classmate - and former Secret Service agent - who wrote to contest the logic behind Clinton's invocation of "Secret Service privilege" had a very smart letter turned into word salad and another friend wrote about his own experience here.
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Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 05/30/2009 11:39PM by ugarte.
Re: WSJ Ivy League Sports Article
Posted by: Jim Hyla (---.twcny.res.rr.com)
Date: May 31, 2009 09:55PM
THANKS
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Re: WSJ Ivy League Sports Article
Posted by: Swampy (---.ri.ri.cox.net)
Date: June 01, 2009 12:20AM
The irony, IMHO, is that the article doesn't question the hypocrisy of the BCS schools in the money sports (F&B-ball). So many kids get chewed up in these "revenue sports," the schools make millions, and in return the players get four or five years at a university, sometimes even getting an education. The current scandal over Derrick Rose at Memphis is a good case in point. Even if someone did take his SAT's for him, the obvious, tongue-in-cheek, question is, how could he possibly stay academically eligible if he really was unqualified academically? Perhaps a look at lax academic standards and the factory model of higher education deserves the attention.
The WSJ article reminds me of a South Park episode in which a girl is appalled at new store in town, "Stupid Spoiled Whore," owned by Paris Hilton. Instead of understanding her revulsion, the girl's father wants her to be like the other girls in South Park and start dressing and acting like a whore too.
The WSJ article reminds me of a South Park episode in which a girl is appalled at new store in town, "Stupid Spoiled Whore," owned by Paris Hilton. Instead of understanding her revulsion, the girl's father wants her to be like the other girls in South Park and start dressing and acting like a whore too.
Re: WSJ Ivy League Sports Article
Posted by: Robb (---.gradacc.ox.ac.uk)
Date: June 01, 2009 05:21AM
Putting on my devil's advocate hat, here:
So basically, (specifically in regards to your women's basketball point) your argument against the proposition "Ivy League sports have been sucking a lot more lately," is "No, not at all - we've been sucking this badly for quite a while now!"
So basically, (specifically in regards to your women's basketball point) your argument against the proposition "Ivy League sports have been sucking a lot more lately," is "No, not at all - we've been sucking this badly for quite a while now!"
Re: WSJ Ivy League Sports Article
Posted by: ugarte (---.z75-46-65.customer.algx.net)
Date: June 01, 2009 10:06AM
Who is the devil that you are advocating for? That's exactly what I was saying with respect to basketball.Robb
Putting on my devil's advocate hat, here:
So basically, (specifically in regards to your women's basketball point) your argument against the proposition "Ivy League sports have been sucking a lot more lately," is "No, not at all - we've been sucking this badly for quite a while now!"
Though I wouldn't use the word "sucking," as it is unfair to the athletes involved. If there was any doubt that the show Norm should have been given more time it was this exchange:
Norm
Kid: I remember you. You sucked.
Norm: I did not suck. I sucked for a professional hockey player.
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Re: WSJ Ivy League Sports Article
Posted by: Robb (---.gradacc.ox.ac.uk)
Date: June 01, 2009 04:36PM
ugarte
Who is the devil that you are advocating for? That's exactly what I was saying with respect to basketball.
Well, then - you got your point across. Well done!
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