Captain McCarron?

I love the guy, but does he really have captain qualities? Pretty hard for a captain to talk to the refs when he's the one always in the box. Johnny Mac is in the top 10 in total penalty minutes and given Cornell's shorter season may be top 5 in Penalty minutes per game. I know this unheard of in the NHL, but maybe it's more common in college hockey. Do you know of anyone that has led their team in penalty minutes and was captain, and what are your takes on making Mr. Game Misconduct team captain? I feel like Bardreau would have made the best captain assuming he is ready to play.

I know that captaincy is typically the players' decision. But, is it possible that Coach found a way to "recommend" McCarron in an effort to get him to mature and spend less time in the box?

Maybe the letter on his chest will help him find restraint knowing his added responsibility to the team.

One name: Matt Cooney. Great captain; learned from one of the best. And 3.06 PIMs/GP became 1.96 PIMs/GP.

Too bad he was injured for much of his senior year.

There's a lot of value - and locker room respect - for a player who sticks up for his teammates and is all about winning, even if it means taking a penalty.

Being a captain does not automatically make a player more mature or force them to demonstrate restraint. Players should become captains because they already are mature, demonstrate restraint, and are good leaders (we obviously don't know if McCarron is a good leader or not since we're not in the locker room). In 2011, the Jets attempted to use the captaincy to make Mark Sanchez a better leader and make Santonio Holmes act more mature with disastrous results. I don't think the Jets are a team you want to model your decisions on.

jtn27
Being a captain does not automatically make a player more mature or force them to demonstrate restraint. Players should become captains because they already are mature, demonstrate restraint, and are good leaders (we obviously don't know if McCarron is a good leader or not since we're not in the locker room). In 2011, the Jets attempted to use the captaincy to make Mark Sanchez a better leader and make Santonio Holmes act more mature with disastrous results. I don't think the Jets are a team you want to model your decisions on.

I'm not sure the Jets are valid for use as a comparison tool here either..... Those are the Jets, remember. Disaster, looking for a way to happen!!

If this really is a ploy to get his PIMs down, that seems like high risk/low reward gamble to me. Risking bad leadership for the entire team for the payoff of improving one player? Makes no sense. I have to think that McCarron must have qualities not readily apparent to those of us examining the penalty sections of the box scores.

peterg
There's a lot of value - and locker room respect - for a player who sticks up for his teammates and is all about winning, even if it means taking a penalty.

A lot less value for a guy who takes penalties in the offensive zone while on a power play. His penalties aren't just of the sticking up for teammates variety. A significant amount are of the so stupid you're being cut from the ECHL variety.

Mike Schafer led the team in PIM his junior year. He was a tri-captain his senior year, when he again led the team in PIM. And a lot of those were pretty stupid penalties, but the team won the ECAC.

We're overthinking this. We're not in the locker room. It's not unusual that the most natural leader might be a person with two not three years of varsity play. I think we're all trying to extend a disappointing season and we don't have "Iles Is Not the Answer" to kick around.

The issue is that most ECAC refs view McCarron as a goon. As captain you are not only a locker room guy, but also a representative of the team. McCarron arguing with the refs would be comical. Captains are also supposed to lead by example, not by leading the ECAC is game misconducts.

Let's see how he manages as captain before we evaluate him as captain.

cuhockey93
The issue is that most ECAC refs view McCarron as a goon. As captain you are not only a locker room guy, but also a representative of the team. McCarron arguing with the refs would be comical. Captains are also supposed to lead by example, not by leading the ECAC is game misconducts.

I seriously doubt that any of us know how "most ECAC refs" view anyone/anything in the ECAC.... Not a reasonable statement.

I'm with Trotsky, let's see how he manages as captain. I doubt the captaincy will be pulled based on our disapproval anyway.

What if I just don't care at all? I'm sure it is an honor to be chosen captain but from the outside I do not give a shit who gets an extra patch.

ugarte
What if I just don't care at all? I'm sure it is an honor to be chosen captain but from the outside I do not give a shit who gets an extra patch.

Agree, it makes no differance as to how I watch and enjoy, or not, the games

rgc4
Mike Schafer led the team in PIM his junior year. He was a tri-captain his senior year, when he again led the team in PIM. And a lot of those were pretty stupid penalties, but the team won the ECAC.

I knew there was an obvious example I wasn't coming up with.

Josh '99

rgc4
Mike Schafer led the team in PIM his junior year. He was a tri-captain his senior year, when he again led the team in PIM. And a lot of those were pretty stupid penalties, but the team won the ECAC.

I knew there was an obvious example I wasn't coming up with.

There's another one. Cornell's all-time leader in PIM/GP is also Cornell's #2 all-time leader in Pts/GP, and served as a captain as a junior (though interestingly not as a senior).

ugarte
What if I just don't care at all? I'm sure it is an honor to be chosen captain but from the outside I do not give a shit who gets an extra patch.

+1

Trotsky

Josh '99

rgc4
Mike Schafer led the team in PIM his junior year. He was a tri-captain his senior year, when he again led the team in PIM. And a lot of those were pretty stupid penalties, but the team won the ECAC.

I knew there was an obvious example I wasn't coming up with.

There's another one. Cornell's all-time leader in PIM/GP is also Cornell's #2 all-time leader in Pts/GP, and served as a captain as a junior (though interestingly not as a senior).

I'm stunned, STUNNED, that you didn't link to your website in this post.

Josh '99

Trotsky

Josh '99

rgc4
Mike Schafer led the team in PIM his junior year. He was a tri-captain his senior year, when he again led the team in PIM. And a lot of those were pretty stupid penalties, but the team won the ECAC.

I knew there was an obvious example I wasn't coming up with.

There's another one. Cornell's all-time leader in PIM/GP is also Cornell's #2 all-time leader in Pts/GP, and served as a captain as a junior (though interestingly not as a senior).

I'm stunned, STUNNED, that you didn't link to your website in this post.

Just for you.

Trotsky

Josh '99

Trotsky

Josh '99

rgc4
Mike Schafer led the team in PIM his junior year. He was a tri-captain his senior year, when he again led the team in PIM. And a lot of those were pretty stupid penalties, but the team won the ECAC.

I knew there was an obvious example I wasn't coming up with.

There's another one. Cornell's all-time leader in PIM/GP is also Cornell's #2 all-time leader in Pts/GP, and served as a captain as a junior (though interestingly not as a senior).

I'm stunned, STUNNED, that you didn't link to your website in this post.

Just for you.

But that was back when men were men.

Trotsky

Josh '99

rgc4
Mike Schafer led the team in PIM his junior year. He was a tri-captain his senior year, when he again led the team in PIM. And a lot of those were pretty stupid penalties, but the team won the ECAC.

I knew there was an obvious example I wasn't coming up with.

There's another one. Cornell's all-time leader in PIM/GP is also Cornell's #2 all-time leader in Pts/GP, and served as a captain as a junior (though interestingly not as a senior).

Just saying there's a reason Dave Schultz didn't captain the Broad Street Bullies. That said, even as the all time penalty minutes in a single season record holder, The Hammer never hurt his team quite as much as a guy like McCarron does because nearly all of his penalty minutes were offset by a 5 on the other team. Not to mention Schultz was also a decent hockey player scoring 200 career NHL points despite spending 4.28 minutes in the box per game. To go back to what I've said all along. Goonery with skill is one thing. If you can kill the penalties you take, there is some advantage to be drawn from physical intimidation (this does not including the stupid stick penalties Dustin Mowery seems to be so fond of taking). Goonery without skill is embarrassing and hurts your team. You can only afford to be rough and physical if you can minimize the consequences. Otherwise you're writing a check you can't cash.

Trotsky

Josh '99

Trotsky

Josh '99

rgc4
Mike Schafer led the team in PIM his junior year. He was a tri-captain his senior year, when he again led the team in PIM. And a lot of those were pretty stupid penalties, but the team won the ECAC.

I knew there was an obvious example I wasn't coming up with.

There's another one. Cornell's all-time leader in PIM/GP is also Cornell's #2 all-time leader in Pts/GP, and served as a captain as a junior (though interestingly not as a senior).

I'm stunned, STUNNED, that you didn't link to your website in this post.

Just for you.

Don't worry, I already found it. (On your site, to be fair.)

css228

Trotsky

Josh '99

rgc4
Mike Schafer led the team in PIM his junior year. He was a tri-captain his senior year, when he again led the team in PIM. And a lot of those were pretty stupid penalties, but the team won the ECAC.

I knew there was an obvious example I wasn't coming up with.

There's another one. Cornell's all-time leader in PIM/GP is also Cornell's #2 all-time leader in Pts/GP, and served as a captain as a junior (though interestingly not as a senior).

Just saying there's a reason Dave Schultz didn't captain the Broad Street Bullies.

Although Bobby Clarke, the actual captain, was hardly a choir boy (but to be fair not the cementhead Schultz was).

css228

Trotsky

Josh '99

rgc4
Mike Schafer led the team in PIM his junior year. He was a tri-captain his senior year, when he again led the team in PIM. And a lot of those were pretty stupid penalties, but the team won the ECAC.

I knew there was an obvious example I wasn't coming up with.

There's another one. Cornell's all-time leader in PIM/GP is also Cornell's #2 all-time leader in Pts/GP, and served as a captain as a junior (though interestingly not as a senior).

Just saying there's a reason Dave Schultz didn't captain the Broad Street Bullies. That said, even as the all time penalty minutes in a single season record holder, The Hammer never hurt his team quite as much as a guy like McCarron does because nearly all of his penalty minutes were offset by a 5 on the other team. Not to mention Schultz was also a decent hockey player scoring 200 career NHL points despite spending 4.28 minutes in the box per game. To go back to what I've said all along. Goonery with skill is one thing. If you can kill the penalties you take, there is some advantage to be drawn from physical intimidation (this does not including the stupid stick penalties Dustin Mowery seems to be so fond of taking). Goonery without skill is embarrassing and hurts your team. You can only afford to be rough and physical if you can minimize the consequences. Otherwise you're writing a check you can't cash.

I know you hate the guy as a player, so I'm not going to change your opinion. But just to resettle my own opinion with a quick session of fact-checking, I walked through the box scores of this season.

Boxes: [www.collegehockeystats.net]
McCarron game-by-game: [www.collegehockeynews.com]

First of all, the standout game when you look at the data is the infamous Game 2 QF blowout at Qunnipiac. McCarron alone picked up 27 PIMs, with one elbowing minor, two 10-minute misconducts, and one 5-minute major. For the melee that concluded the 2nd period, McCarron was the only player on either team not to pick up a roughing minor to go along with the misconduct. I don't recall why, but my guess is that it was given because he left the bench...more on that later. McCarron's 2nd misconduct of that game was assessed along with a "contact-to-the-head" penalty in the 3rd as QU's Dalhuisen was hit with a roughing penalty at the same time. It isn't exactly fair to say "excluding that game," because it happened, but I will note that 1/3 of McCarron's PIMs for the entire season came in that one game. Without that one game, he is alongside Ferlin, Lowry, De Swardt, and Mowrey in PIMs.

OK, but what about the rest of the season? By my count, he had 16 minors, 1 major, and 2 misconducts in 32 games. Included in the minors were two "tough guy" penalties: charging the goalie and unsportsmanlike conduct. The Nov. 30th game vs Clarkson saw him pick up the 5-minute major and the 10-minute DQ for "leaving the bench." In that stoppage, three Clarkson players were assessed 10-minute misconducts and Clarkson's McPherson was also assessed a 5-minute major for "hitting after the whistle." No other CU players were penalized in that event. The score was 1-0 Cornell at the time, and if leaving the bench gave him a 5-minute major, he most likely cost the team a 5:00 PP that was already coming (depending on the circumstances...I honestly don't remember what happened). Cornell won that game as well as the following game McCarron had to sit out. The other misconduct he received this season was at the home RPI game. Mowrey received a 2-minute slashing penalty and McCarron received a 10-minute misconduct with no minor attached.

Over half of his penalty minutes this season (44 of 84) came in two games.

There were two other games besides that Clarkson and Quinnipiac where he was hit with more than 1 penalty: CC to open the season (3 minors) and at Union (2 minors). That was surprising to me. In 18 of his 33 games, he was clean on the penalty sheet.

I don't see that side of his game as thuggery or the aggitator/instigator (ala Steve Wilson) as much as over-reacting in "you can't do that to my teammate" situations. Does he play physically and aggressively? Without question. The surprising thing to me that separates him from a talentless goon? His scoring numbers. He's 7 points behind Ferlin and Lowry in career scoring through 2 seasons. After returning from his DQ, he put up 8 points in 7 games, with 6 PIMs. The "goonery without skill" line in the above post has been completely debunked for me. He's not afraid to hit, but he can put points on the board too.

Coming away from this walk through the box scores...it just seems to me that he's the guy who sticks up for his teammates. He's usually clean, until things get nasty somehow, and then he's the first to jump in the thick of it. He's the one who leaves the bench when there's trouble. I'm guessing that's why he's getting a letter.

All this said, my initial reaction to this thread is that it's pretty laughable that any fan thinks they deserve any say on who should be chosen as captains. But I'm glad I actually took a look at the numbers.

RichH
Coming away from this walk through the box scores...it just seems to me that he's the guy who sticks up for his teammates. He's usually clean, until things get nasty somehow, and then he's the first to jump in the thick of it. He's the one who leaves the bench when there's trouble. I'm guessing that's why he's getting a letter.

Seems like a reasonable assessment to me. Hopefully as captain and with another year under his belt he'll temper the "first guy off the bench" instinct a bit.

RichH
All this said, my initial reaction to this thread is that it's pretty laughable that any fan thinks they deserve any say on who should be chosen as captains. But I'm glad I actually took a look at the numbers.

We as fans certainly don't have or deserve any say in who gets to be captains. but it's to be expected that we'll discuss the choices the team makes and we have a right to do so. We should just do so with the understanding thatwe don't have all of the information that went into the decision (i.e. behind the scenes stuff).

KeithK
We as fans certainly don't have or deserve any say in who gets to be captains. but it's to be expected that we'll discuss the choices the team makes and we have a right to do so. We should just do so with the understanding thatwe don't have all of the information that went into the decision (i.e. behind the scenes stuff).

A reasonable statement.

I'm surprised nobody has commented yet (until now) on the unusual step of giving a goaltender a letter. IIRC, this was an interesting topic the last time it happened here (I'm guessing Underhill?), since the on-ice duties of captains are approaching refs, etc.

RichH

All this said, my initial reaction to this thread is that it's pretty laughable that any fan thinks they deserve any say on who should be chosen as captains. But I'm glad I actually took a look at the numbers.

I, too, am glad you looked at this. Thanks.

RichH

css228

Trotsky

Josh '99

rgc4
Mike Schafer led the team in PIM his junior year. He was a tri-captain his senior year, when he again led the team in PIM. And a lot of those were pretty stupid penalties, but the team won the ECAC.

I knew there was an obvious example I wasn't coming up with.

There's another one. Cornell's all-time leader in PIM/GP is also Cornell's #2 all-time leader in Pts/GP, and served as a captain as a junior (though interestingly not as a senior).

Just saying there's a reason Dave Schultz didn't captain the Broad Street Bullies. That said, even as the all time penalty minutes in a single season record holder, The Hammer never hurt his team quite as much as a guy like McCarron does because nearly all of his penalty minutes were offset by a 5 on the other team. Not to mention Schultz was also a decent hockey player scoring 200 career NHL points despite spending 4.28 minutes in the box per game. To go back to what I've said all along. Goonery with skill is one thing. If you can kill the penalties you take, there is some advantage to be drawn from physical intimidation (this does not including the stupid stick penalties Dustin Mowery seems to be so fond of taking). Goonery without skill is embarrassing and hurts your team. You can only afford to be rough and physical if you can minimize the consequences. Otherwise you're writing a check you can't cash.

I know you hate the guy as a player, so I'm not going to change your opinion. But just to resettle my own opinion with a quick session of fact-checking, I walked through the box scores of this season.

Boxes: [www.collegehockeystats.net]
McCarron game-by-game: [www.collegehockeynews.com]

First of all, the standout game when you look at the data is the infamous Game 2 QF blowout at Qunnipiac. McCarron alone picked up 27 PIMs, with one elbowing minor, two 10-minute misconducts, and one 5-minute major. For the melee that concluded the 2nd period, McCarron was the only player on either team not to pick up a roughing minor to go along with the misconduct. I don't recall why, but my guess is that it was given because he left the bench...more on that later. McCarron's 2nd misconduct of that game was assessed along with a "contact-to-the-head" penalty in the 3rd as QU's Dalhuisen was hit with a roughing penalty at the same time. It isn't exactly fair to say "excluding that game," because it happened, but I will note that 1/3 of McCarron's PIMs for the entire season came in that one game. Without that one game, he is alongside Ferlin, Lowry, De Swardt, and Mowrey in PIMs.

OK, but what about the rest of the season? By my count, he had 16 minors, 1 major, and 2 misconducts in 32 games. Included in the minors were two "tough guy" penalties: charging the goalie and unsportsmanlike conduct. The Nov. 30th game vs Clarkson saw him pick up the 5-minute major and the 10-minute DQ for "leaving the bench." In that stoppage, three Clarkson players were assessed 10-minute misconducts and Clarkson's McPherson was also assessed a 5-minute major for "hitting after the whistle." No other CU players were penalized in that event. The score was 1-0 Cornell at the time, and if leaving the bench gave him a 5-minute major, he most likely cost the team a 5:00 PP that was already coming (depending on the circumstances...I honestly don't remember what happened). Cornell won that game as well as the following game McCarron had to sit out. The other misconduct he received this season was at the home RPI game. Mowrey received a 2-minute slashing penalty and McCarron received a 10-minute misconduct with no minor attached.

Over half of his penalty minutes this season (44 of 84) came in two games.

There were two other games besides that Clarkson and Quinnipiac where he was hit with more than 1 penalty: CC to open the season (3 minors) and at Union (2 minors). That was surprising to me. In 18 of his 33 games, he was clean on the penalty sheet.

I don't see that side of his game as thuggery or the aggitator/instigator (ala Steve Wilson) as much as over-reacting in "you can't do that to my teammate" situations. Does he play physically and aggressively? Without question. The surprising thing to me that separates him from a talentless goon? His scoring numbers. He's 7 points behind Ferlin and Lowry in career scoring through 2 seasons. After returning from his DQ, he put up 8 points in 7 games, with 6 PIMs. The "goonery without skill" line in the above post has been completely debunked for me. He's not afraid to hit, but he can put points on the board too.

Coming away from this walk through the box scores...it just seems to me that he's the guy who sticks up for his teammates. He's usually clean, until things get nasty somehow, and then he's the first to jump in the thick of it. He's the one who leaves the bench when there's trouble. I'm guessing that's why he's getting a letter.

All this said, my initial reaction to this thread is that it's pretty laughable that any fan thinks they deserve any say on who should be chosen as captains. But I'm glad I actually took a look at the numbers.

You know what I'd written something out arguing this, but I'm not going to call out incident by incident a fellow student like that. Let's just say that he's not what I would choose in a captain. Then again my ideal captains are along the line of Toews, Lidstrom, Clarkie, Pronger, etc. Guys who clearly have the respect of not only everyone in the locker room but every one in the league, including the referees. Not sure that the new captain fits that mold.

css228
You know what I'd written something out arguing this, but I'm not going to call out incident by incident a fellow student like that. Let's just say that he's not what I would choose in a captain. Then again my ideal captains are along the line of Toews, Lidstrom, Clarkie, Pronger, etc. Guys who clearly have the respect of not only everyone in the locker room but every one in the league, including the referees. Not sure that the new captain fits that mold.

That's OK, I saw your original post, and got to see the axe you have to grind against this guy. Which is fine; it's your right. All I did was try to take an objective look at his season and see if the "always in the box" label getting hurled at him was justified. I don't care if the chosen captains are beloved angels and I only slightly care that they can lead the team. "Leadership" is one of those fuzzy un-quantifiable qualities, like "Scrappiness, by David Eckstein." I couldn't care less whose jerseys are getting the Cs and As stitched to them, as long as I see lots of Ws.

Really, the comment I would thumb my +1 like-star at in this thread is ugarte's.

css228

RichH

css228

Trotsky

Josh '99

rgc4
Mike Schafer led the team in PIM his junior year. He was a tri-captain his senior year, when he again led the team in PIM. And a lot of those were pretty stupid penalties, but the team won the ECAC.

I knew there was an obvious example I wasn't coming up with.

There's another one. Cornell's all-time leader in PIM/GP is also Cornell's #2 all-time leader in Pts/GP, and served as a captain as a junior (though interestingly not as a senior).

Just saying there's a reason Dave Schultz didn't captain the Broad Street Bullies. That said, even as the all time penalty minutes in a single season record holder, The Hammer never hurt his team quite as much as a guy like McCarron does because nearly all of his penalty minutes were offset by a 5 on the other team. Not to mention Schultz was also a decent hockey player scoring 200 career NHL points despite spending 4.28 minutes in the box per game. To go back to what I've said all along. Goonery with skill is one thing. If you can kill the penalties you take, there is some advantage to be drawn from physical intimidation (this does not including the stupid stick penalties Dustin Mowery seems to be so fond of taking). Goonery without skill is embarrassing and hurts your team. You can only afford to be rough and physical if you can minimize the consequences. Otherwise you're writing a check you can't cash.

I know you hate the guy as a player, so I'm not going to change your opinion. But just to resettle my own opinion with a quick session of fact-checking, I walked through the box scores of this season.

Boxes: [www.collegehockeystats.net]
McCarron game-by-game: [www.collegehockeynews.com]

First of all, the standout game when you look at the data is the infamous Game 2 QF blowout at Qunnipiac. McCarron alone picked up 27 PIMs, with one elbowing minor, two 10-minute misconducts, and one 5-minute major. For the melee that concluded the 2nd period, McCarron was the only player on either team not to pick up a roughing minor to go along with the misconduct. I don't recall why, but my guess is that it was given because he left the bench...more on that later. McCarron's 2nd misconduct of that game was assessed along with a "contact-to-the-head" penalty in the 3rd as QU's Dalhuisen was hit with a roughing penalty at the same time. It isn't exactly fair to say "excluding that game," because it happened, but I will note that 1/3 of McCarron's PIMs for the entire season came in that one game. Without that one game, he is alongside Ferlin, Lowry, De Swardt, and Mowrey in PIMs.

OK, but what about the rest of the season? By my count, he had 16 minors, 1 major, and 2 misconducts in 32 games. Included in the minors were two "tough guy" penalties: charging the goalie and unsportsmanlike conduct. The Nov. 30th game vs Clarkson saw him pick up the 5-minute major and the 10-minute DQ for "leaving the bench." In that stoppage, three Clarkson players were assessed 10-minute misconducts and Clarkson's McPherson was also assessed a 5-minute major for "hitting after the whistle." No other CU players were penalized in that event. The score was 1-0 Cornell at the time, and if leaving the bench gave him a 5-minute major, he most likely cost the team a 5:00 PP that was already coming (depending on the circumstances...I honestly don't remember what happened). Cornell won that game as well as the following game McCarron had to sit out. The other misconduct he received this season was at the home RPI game. Mowrey received a 2-minute slashing penalty and McCarron received a 10-minute misconduct with no minor attached.

Over half of his penalty minutes this season (44 of 84) came in two games.

There were two other games besides that Clarkson and Quinnipiac where he was hit with more than 1 penalty: CC to open the season (3 minors) and at Union (2 minors). That was surprising to me. In 18 of his 33 games, he was clean on the penalty sheet.

I don't see that side of his game as thuggery or the aggitator/instigator (ala Steve Wilson) as much as over-reacting in "you can't do that to my teammate" situations. Does he play physically and aggressively? Without question. The surprising thing to me that separates him from a talentless goon? His scoring numbers. He's 7 points behind Ferlin and Lowry in career scoring through 2 seasons. After returning from his DQ, he put up 8 points in 7 games, with 6 PIMs. The "goonery without skill" line in the above post has been completely debunked for me. He's not afraid to hit, but he can put points on the board too.

Coming away from this walk through the box scores...it just seems to me that he's the guy who sticks up for his teammates. He's usually clean, until things get nasty somehow, and then he's the first to jump in the thick of it. He's the one who leaves the bench when there's trouble. I'm guessing that's why he's getting a letter.

All this said, my initial reaction to this thread is that it's pretty laughable that any fan thinks they deserve any say on who should be chosen as captains. But I'm glad I actually took a look at the numbers.

You know what I'd written something out arguing this, but I'm not going to call out incident by incident a fellow student like that. Let's just say that he's not what I would choose in a captain. Then again my ideal captains are along the line of Toews, Lidstrom, Clarkie, Pronger, etc. Guys who clearly have the respect of not only everyone in the locker room but every one in the league, including the referees. Not sure that the new captain fits that mold.

Not that I want to carry on this discussion, but I'm not sure what you meant.

KeithK
but it's to be expected that we'll discuss the choices the team makes and we have a right to do so

The defense of our "right to do so" seems to come up a lot around here (not pointing fingers at you, Keith, you just happened to mention it most recently), and I think this is a bit of a strawman. I don't think anybody denies our right to discuss anything short of actual defamation. The point seems to come up like this:

X: My opinion is mumblewhatever.
Y: Nobody really listens to our opinions on mumblewhatever.
X: Oh! Come and see the violence inherent in the system! Help, help, I'm being repressed!

9 (or 10) times out of 10, X isn't being repressed; Y is just calling him an idiot, which may or may not be true or polite, but in any case is not a free speech issue.

Trotsky

KeithK
but it's to be expected that we'll discuss the choices the team makes and we have a right to do so

The defense of our "right to do so" seems to come up a lot around here (not pointing fingers at you, Keith, you just happened to mention it most recently), and I think this is a bit of a strawman. I don't think anybody denies our right to discuss anything short of actual defamation. The point seems to come up like this:

X: My opinion is mumblewhatever.
Y: Nobody really listens to our opinions on mumblewhatever.
X: Oh! Come and see the violence inherent in the system! Help, help, I'm being repressed!

9 (or 10) times out of 10, X isn't being repressed; Y is just calling him an idiot, which may or may not be true or polite, but in any case is not a free speech issue.

Oh you'r definitely right that most of the time someone claims that they are being deprived of their right to free speech it's really just complaining about criticism. I was just keying off Rich's statement that "it's pretty laughable that any fan thinks they deserve any say" in the choice of captains. Maybe it was silly of me to reply since Rich is really just criticizing the complaints about McCarron.

There are some folks on sports forums who take the position that we have no right to criticize the players, etc. because we're not down on the ice ourself. I'm pretty sure Rich isn't one of those.

KeithK

Trotsky

KeithK
but it's to be expected that we'll discuss the choices the team makes and we have a right to do so

The defense of our "right to do so" seems to come up a lot around here (not pointing fingers at you, Keith, you just happened to mention it most recently), and I think this is a bit of a strawman. I don't think anybody denies our right to discuss anything short of actual defamation. The point seems to come up like this:

X: My opinion is mumblewhatever.
Y: Nobody really listens to our opinions on mumblewhatever.
X: Oh! Come and see the violence inherent in the system! Help, help, I'm being repressed!

9 (or 10) times out of 10, X isn't being repressed; Y is just calling him an idiot, which may or may not be true or polite, but in any case is not a free speech issue.

Oh you'r definitely right that most of the time someone claims that they are being deprived of their right to free speech it's really just complaining about criticism. I was just keying off Rich's statement that "it's pretty laughable that any fan thinks they deserve any say" in the choice of captains. Maybe it was silly of me to reply since Rich is really just criticizing the complaints about McCarron.

There are some folks on sports forums who take the position that we have no right to criticize the players, etc. because we're not down on the ice ourself. I'm pretty sure Rich isn't one of those.

I can confirm that. I admit that "laughable" was a poor choice of words for me. One thing I want to be clear on is that any legitimate criticism of the team isn't met with a general response of "don't say bad things!!" like certain incarnations of the "OUR KNIGHTS ARE ABSOLUTELY AWESOME!!!" Clarkson Round Table. It's most telling after a bad year. I completely support the right of the "Schafer must go!" or "our players are talentless hacks" crowd to openly voice their opinion here without fear of verbal retribution, just as I also hope those same people understand that there will be folks here with historical perspectives to believe that this a grand era and "be careful what you wish for" if there be a slate-wiping. Mostly, I want reasoned, intelligent, and respectful, troll-free discussion regardless of your opinion. This is exactly why this forum is so attractive to me (and others, I'm sure).

RichH
Mostly, I want reasoned, intelligent, and respectful, troll-free discussion regardless of your opinion. This is exactly why this forum is so attractive to me (and others, I'm sure).

I thought it was the gratuitous nudity?

It's a good mix of old farts and young upstarts (and young farts and old upstarts). One of the best things about this forum is the arguments are just as likely to be within those groups as between.

Trotsky

RichH
Mostly, I want reasoned, intelligent, and respectful, troll-free discussion regardless of your opinion. This is exactly why this forum is so attractive to me (and others, I'm sure).

I thought it was the gratuitous nudity?

Well, that, combined with the great daily deals.

RichH

KeithK
We as fans certainly don't have or deserve any say in who gets to be captains. but it's to be expected that we'll discuss the choices the team makes and we have a right to do so. We should just do so with the understanding thatwe don't have all of the information that went into the decision (i.e. behind the scenes stuff).

A reasonable statement.

I'm surprised nobody has commented yet (until now) on the unusual step of giving a goaltender a letter. IIRC, this was an interesting topic the last time it happened here (I'm guessing Underhill?), since the on-ice duties of captains are approaching refs, etc.

Per the rosters on collegehockeystats.net, Underhill never wore a letter. That doesn't really answer your question, but it's a start. The History page on cornellbigred.com lists captains under the season-by-season records, and I got far enough back that I wasn't sure anymore whether a given player was a goalie without finding one, but it also doesn't list assistant captains, which I would guess is more common for a goalie, on account of the approaching refs stuff that you mentioned.

Josh '99

RichH

KeithK
We as fans certainly don't have or deserve any say in who gets to be captains. but it's to be expected that we'll discuss the choices the team makes and we have a right to do so. We should just do so with the understanding thatwe don't have all of the information that went into the decision (i.e. behind the scenes stuff).

A reasonable statement.

I'm surprised nobody has commented yet (until now) on the unusual step of giving a goaltender a letter. IIRC, this was an interesting topic the last time it happened here (I'm guessing Underhill?), since the on-ice duties of captains are approaching refs, etc.

Per the rosters on collegehockeystats.net, Underhill never wore a letter. That doesn't really answer your question, but it's a start. The History page on cornellbigred.com lists captains under the season-by-season records, and I got far enough back that I wasn't sure anymore whether a given player was a goalie without finding one, but it also doesn't list assistant captains, which I would guess is more common for a goalie, on account of the approaching refs stuff that you mentioned.

Unaccountably I have not done a captains/assistants page yet (this will now change), however if you are interested in whether a particular player (including a goalie) had a "C" you can go to the Record Generator and enter the player's ln_fn and click Career Scoring. There is a column displaying whether he was a captain for a given season.

I will have to check whether I included assistants in the base data tonight.

Josh '99
The History page on cornellbigred.com lists captains under the season-by-season records, and I got far enough back that I wasn't sure anymore whether a given player was a goalie without finding one, but it also doesn't list assistant captains, which I would guess is more common for a goalie, on account of the approaching refs stuff that you mentioned.

Laing Kennedy, 1962-63; Brian Hayward, 1981-82.

RichH

Trotsky

RichH
Mostly, I want reasoned, intelligent, and respectful, troll-free discussion regardless of your opinion. This is exactly why this forum is so attractive to me (and others, I'm sure).

I thought it was the gratuitous nudity?

Well, that, combined with the great daily deals.

+1

George64

Josh '99
The History page on cornellbigred.com lists captains under the season-by-season records, and I got far enough back that I wasn't sure anymore whether a given player was a goalie without finding one, but it also doesn't list assistant captains, which I would guess is more common for a goalie, on account of the approaching refs stuff that you mentioned.

Laing Kennedy, 1962-63; Brian Hayward, 1981-82.

Also, before my time at Cornell, John Detwiler, 1959-60. As far as I can tell, that's all the goalie captains in the Lynah Rink era.

George64

George64

Josh '99
The History page on cornellbigred.com lists captains under the season-by-season records, and I got far enough back that I wasn't sure anymore whether a given player was a goalie without finding one, but it also doesn't list assistant captains, which I would guess is more common for a goalie, on account of the approaching refs stuff that you mentioned.

Laing Kennedy, 1962-63; Brian Hayward, 1981-82.

Also, before my time at Cornell, John Detwiler, 1959-60. As far as I can tell, that's all the goalie captains in the Lynah Rink era.

Huh. Maybe it was speculation then, or discussion of an opponent who wore a captaincy letter. The most relevant search result is here.

Bill Fenwick
A goalie can't be designated as a captain for a game and can't act as a captain (talking with refs, etc.) A team can name a goalie as its captain, but the title is effectively an honorary one.

RichH

George64

George64

Josh '99
The History page on cornellbigred.com lists captains under the season-by-season records, and I got far enough back that I wasn't sure anymore whether a given player was a goalie without finding one, but it also doesn't list assistant captains, which I would guess is more common for a goalie, on account of the approaching refs stuff that you mentioned.

Laing Kennedy, 1962-63; Brian Hayward, 1981-82.

Also, before my time at Cornell, John Detwiler, 1959-60. As far as I can tell, that's all the goalie captains in the Lynah Rink era.

Huh. Maybe it was speculation then, or discussion of an opponent who wore a captaincy letter. The most relevant search result is here.

Bill Fenwick
A goalie can't be designated as a captain for a game and can't act as a captain (talking with refs, etc.) A team can name a goalie as its captain, but the title is effectively an honorary one.

Here's what the NCAA rule book has to say on the subject:

Rule 6 - Captain and Alternate Captains
6.1 Captain - One game captain shall be appointed by each team, and shall be the only player to have the privilege of discussing with the referee
any questions relating to interpretation of rules that may arise during the progress of a game. The captain should wear the letter “C,’’ approximately 3 inches in height and in contrasting color, in a conspicuous position on the front of the jersey.
The referee and official scorer shall be advised before the start of each game of the name of the captain of the team and the designated alternate.
Alternate Captain - If the captain is not available because of injury or an imposed penalty, another player may be designated to act as captain.
Captain’s Privileges - The captain may not dispute a judgment decision of the referee.
PENALTY—Misconduct. For further violation, game misconduct.
A goalkeeper shall not be entitled to exercise the privileges of captain.
The captain of each team shall meet with the referee before the start of each game (82.2).
During an altercation, the captain may not exercise his or her privileges until the referee has entered the referees’ crease.

Thanks for posting that- I was just about to point out that everyone kept saying "assistant" rather than "alternate."

George64

George64

Josh '99
The History page on cornellbigred.com lists captains under the season-by-season records, and I got far enough back that I wasn't sure anymore whether a given player was a goalie without finding one, but it also doesn't list assistant captains, which I would guess is more common for a goalie, on account of the approaching refs stuff that you mentioned.

Laing Kennedy, 1962-63; Brian Hayward, 1981-82.

Also, before my time at Cornell, John Detwiler, 1959-60. As far as I can tell, that's all the goalie captains in the Lynah Rink era.

Darren Eliot 1982-83.

Jim Hyla

But that was back when men were men.

Wow. Some of those brawls with the Fergusons were right out of Slap Shot. And you didn't get a game misconduct, you got five for fighting then came right back on the ice to find the guy again.

TimV

Jim Hyla

But that was back when men were men.

Wow. Some of those brawls with the Fergusons were right out of Slap Shot. And you didn't get a game misconduct, you got five for fighting then came right back on the ice to find the guy again.

Eddie Shore.

Trotsky

TimV

Jim Hyla

But that was back when men were men.

Wow. Some of those brawls with the Fergusons were right out of Slap Shot. And you didn't get a game misconduct, you got five for fighting then came right back on the ice to find the guy again.

Eddie Shore.

Puttin' on the foils!

TimV

Jim Hyla

But that was back when men were men.

Wow. Some of those brawls with the Fergusons were right out of Slap Shot. And you didn't get a game misconduct, you got five for fighting then came right back on the ice to find the guy again.

Back in the day, Cornell held intramural boxing championships and Doug Ferguson competed at least once. As I recall, he lost the bout that I saw.

George64

RichH

George64

George64

Josh '99
The History page on cornellbigred.com lists captains under the season-by-season records, and I got far enough back that I wasn't sure anymore whether a given player was a goalie without finding one, but it also doesn't list assistant captains, which I would guess is more common for a goalie, on account of the approaching refs stuff that you mentioned.

Laing Kennedy, 1962-63; Brian Hayward, 1981-82.

Also, before my time at Cornell, John Detwiler, 1959-60. As far as I can tell, that's all the goalie captains in the Lynah Rink era.

Huh. Maybe it was speculation then, or discussion of an opponent who wore a captaincy letter. The most relevant search result is here.

Bill Fenwick
A goalie can't be designated as a captain for a game and can't act as a captain (talking with refs, etc.) A team can name a goalie as its captain, but the title is effectively an honorary one.

Here's what the NCAA rule book has to say on the subject:

Rule 6 - Captain and Alternate Captains
6.1 Captain - One game captain shall be appointed by each team, and shall be the only player to have the privilege of discussing with the referee
any questions relating to interpretation of rules that may arise during the progress of a game. The captain should wear the letter “C,’’ approximately 3 inches in height and in contrasting color, in a conspicuous position on the front of the jersey.
The referee and official scorer shall be advised before the start of each game of the name of the captain of the team and the designated alternate.
Alternate Captain - If the captain is not available because of injury or an imposed penalty, another player may be designated to act as captain.
Captain’s Privileges - The captain may not dispute a judgment decision of the referee.
PENALTY—Misconduct. For further violation, game misconduct.
A goalkeeper shall not be entitled to exercise the privileges of captain.
The captain of each team shall meet with the referee before the start of each game (82.2).
During an altercation, the captain may not exercise his or her privileges until the referee has entered the referees’ crease.

This is a tangent, but does this mean that if a team has tri-captains, as Cornell did this past season, one of the three is designated to be the game captain before a given game, and only that one may act as the captain for that game?

And a further tangent, does this mean that if either McCarron or Bardreau is not dressed for a game for whatever reason, the team would need to designate a different alternate captain because Iles would not be eligible to act in that capacity?

TimV

Jim Hyla

But that was back when men were men.

Wow. Some of those brawls with the Fergusons were right out of Slap Shot. And you didn't get a game misconduct, you got five for fighting then came right back on the ice to find the guy again.

Hey, I seem to recall Hornby doing that as recently as 2004.

French Rage

TimV

Jim Hyla

But that was back when men were men.

Wow. Some of those brawls with the Fergusons were right out of Slap Shot. And you didn't get a game misconduct, you got five for fighting then came right back on the ice to find the guy again.

Hey, I seem to recall Hornby doing that as recently as 2004.

"I Am Legend"

Trotsky

French Rage

TimV

Jim Hyla

But that was back when men were men.

Wow. Some of those brawls with the Fergusons were right out of Slap Shot. And you didn't get a game misconduct, you got five for fighting then came right back on the ice to find the guy again.

Hey, I seem to recall Hornby doing that as recently as 2004.

"I Am Legend"

Heh, I found an old thread discussing Rocke that also contains a discussion on who's allowed to lobby the ref. The more offseason threads change, the more they stay the same.