Section G

[mha]

Try coming up with another approach. "Townies up" is one of the stupider and ruder things I've heard in Lynah, and I've heard some really rude stuff. :-)

"Stand up" would work pretty well without insulting anyone, and would cover everyone at Lynah.

Anyway, the question is whether people's view is really being blocked. The fans in Section H have as much right to enjoy the game as anyone else, and if by standing up, fans in Section G are blocking their view, it's not unreasonable to ask them -- politely and without threat of assault, mind you -- to sit down. Not everyone could stand for the whole game even if they wanted to.

[mha]

Gene Nighman is the manager of the Athletics ticket office.

[jtwcornell91]

Mark H. Anbinder wrote:

Try coming up with another approach. "Townies up" is one of the stupider and ruder things I've heard in Lynah, and I've heard some really rude stuff. :-)

I think the key thing is that it's rude to people who are on our side.

"Stand up" would work pretty well without insulting anyone, and would cover everyone at Lynah.

In Bern (and my one experience in Berlin leads me to believe that this is generically true in German-speaking Europe), there are Stehplaetze and Sitzplaetze, standing and sitting sections of the arena.  (A Sitzplatz ticket costs twice as much as a Stehplatz, which was a good deal for those of us who wanted to stand, but that's another story.)  In the last few minutes of a close game or victory, the Stehplatz fans will exhort those in the Sitzplatz to stand by singing "Steht auf, wenn ihr Berner seid", which means "Stand up if you're Bernese".  I've been trying to think of a Cornell version for the past three years or so.  Mercifully for those who dislike my Knöpfli cheer (which seems to be everyone), there's no good two-syllable word for Cornellian, so the best I've been able to come up with is "Stand up, if you're for Cornell" to the same tune.  I'd be game to try and start that as an alternative, but it's less primal than a three-syllable chant.

[Will]

[Q]I stand for the games when I'm not obstructing people, but I sit when I am obstructing somebody. This isn't a question of civil liberties. It's politeness. [/Q]
Fine. But, as "Section H" just said, it seems as if the people in G aren't obstructing their view at any point, so it's a moot point. If it turns out later there were actually a number of complaints coming from H about the obstructed view, I'll retract this.

[Q]Also, most of these "adamant" students are facetimers, and most of those boring, passionless townies have been coming to games and supporting the team for 20+ years and care a helluva lot more about Cornell hockey than the students.[/Q]
I never denied the townies, err, that is, the local residents of Ithaca and surrounding areas, weren't ardent fans in their own right. After all, they each pay (directly) twice as much per season ticket as the students do thanks to the Student Activities fee. I should note that some of my best student friends are also local residents of Ithaca and surrounding areas and have been Cornell hockey fans for quite some time themselves. And remember, "boring" and "passionless" are your words, Greg, not mine.

[Q]The Faithful are about more than chanting "sucks" every five seconds and getting wasted at Dunbar's.[/Q]
I'm insulted that you seem to be insinuating that that's all the student fans are all about. I've been a big fan since I came to Cornell over three years ago. Cheering and mocking the other team is a part of why I love hockey, but it's not the only part. The facetimers won't get this, but I think you're grossly underestimating the number of hardcore students fans there are.

[Q]And it wasn't even all that long ago that the tradition was not to stand for the whole game, but to stand only until Cornell scored their first goal - at which point the Faithful were generally pretty glad to get to sit down. So while it's pretty frustrating that the cops would enforce their will so selectively and abusively, the "fighting for tradition" argument doesn't hold a lot of water with me. If you really want to start fighting for tradition, you'd better be willing to ask Section B to sit down after Cornell's first goal of the evening.[/Q]
My argument wasn't "fighting for tradition" so much as it was "getting all of the fans to actively show their support at the games", although that seems to have different interpretations. Beeeej, if you want to reinvigorate the sitting down after the first goal tradition, though, be my guest.

[Q]Try coming up with another approach. "Townies up" is one of the stupider and ruder things I've heard in Lynah, and I've heard some really rude stuff. :-)

"Stand up" would work pretty well without insulting anyone, and would cover everyone at Lynah.[/Q]
I can't speak for all the students, but when I say "townies", I never mean it as an insult. "Townies" is just easier to say than "the local residents of Ithaca and surrounding areas". It shouldn't be taken (or used) as a derogatory term. I'm happy to see a real mass example of town-gown relations. I'm not sure Ithaca has any other venue (except for a few other Cornell sporting events, like football games) where a great number of students and the local residents of Ithaca and surrounding areas can get together to celebrate a common cause or fanaticism.

[Al DeFlorio]

Mark H. Anbinder wrote:

Anyway, the question is whether people's view is really being blocked. The fans in Section H have as much right to enjoy the game as anyone else, and if by standing up, fans in Section G are blocking their view, it's not unreasonable to ask them -- politely and without threat of assault, mind you -- to sit down.

I'd say Mark, as he seems often to do, has gotten at the crux of the matter in these two sentences.

I can't visualize Lynah well enough to give an opinion on the Section H sight-line issue, but if the view is in fact blocked by standees in G, then I think the fans in H have a legitimate complaint.  The begged question is:  how was this first handled with the folks in G?  Were notes placed on their seats explaining the situation and asking their cooperation, or something similar?  Or did things begin with threats and intimidation.

[Jim Hyla]

Although, since I don't live in Ithaca, I don't know if I qualify as a townie, I don't particularly mind the "Townies Up" cheer. It's particularly appropriate at the end of a close game. However I do mind if it's used to imply we are better than you are, or the like.
 
I completely agree with Greg, WOW. Politeness should govern our actions. Those who have stated it are right, there are some people on my side of the rink who could not physically stand for the game. I have an ILR professor who is semiretired and has to use the elevator to get to the second floor to the CHA room inbetween periods. Would you sacrifice his participation by making him stand. If so, you would be throwing away someone who still buys tickets, even though because of his wifes health he has to go to Florida and miss the second half of the season. By the way he gives the rest of his tickets back to the ILR school so they can give them out to alums and others who might be visiting.

All of us are Lynah Faithful, but everyone in their own way. I'm proud that the students stand for the game, and I tell all my non-CU friends about it, but we must all respect each other's feelings. Oterwise Lynah is not  Faithful but a jail.

The ball is now in the U's court. They must find a way to satisfy all of the Faithful. If you truly want to make a difference, offer to sit down with them and work out a solution.

[Will]

[Q]The begged question is: how was this first handled with the folks in G? Were notes placed on their seats explaining the situation and asking their cooperation, or something similar? Or did things begin with threats and intimidation.[/Q]

I can only attest to what I witnessed.  Some students in G had been standing (pushed by some of the louder fans in E and F into doing so, since G generally does sit for the majority of the game).  I saw a cop (I was told that it was Officer Love, whose name garnered more than a few chuckles) approach some students and eject them from the game.  This happened probably about six or seven times in total.  Around the fifth or sixth time, one group of students was a little more ardent about refusing to leave than the prior groups were, and the cop pulled out the mace and appeared to threaten to use it. That group left willingly shortly thereafter. At one point towards the end of the series of ejections, I spotted Gene at the top of section G, though I wasn't sure what he was doing exactly.

And now, the assumptions. I assume that, before the first ejection, one of the athletic staff had asked the first group of students to sit down (probably after a complaint from someone in H, although I certainly can't verify that at all), and either they didn't, or they did so but later stood back up, at which point the cop was asked to intervene. However, after the first two or so ejections, I paid closer attention to what was going on in G, and I didn't see any more athletic staff asking specific people to sit down. All I saw was the cop continuing to eject one group of people at a time, which in my mind seems wrong. People should have a warning, and the first group being ejected isn't a valid warning to all the others in my book. (But it seems people rarely follow my book, so what do I know?) I assume Gene came by after the complaints from the ejected students, the athletic staff, the cops, and/or section H became evident.

[Will]

Oh, one thing I forgot to mention. At one point, I believe the cop directed one group of ejected students to look at the back of their tickets. I assume he was directing the students to the part that says, "Any person who engages in disorderly or disruptive conduct such as profanity and abusive or threatening language, or the throwing of objects, shall be subject to removal without refund." (I seriously doubt that he wanted to inform them that they could get $5 off at Dick's Sporting Goods.) I assume that standing up is a form of "disruptive conduct" in their minds.

[jtwcornell91]

Al DeFlorio wrote:

Mark H. Anbinder wrote:

I can't visualize Lynah well enough to give an opinion on the Section H sight-line issue, but if the view is in fact blocked by standees in G, then I think the fans in H have a legitimate complaint.

I agree, to a point, but we should be careful not to get into the cycle where G has to sit so H has an unobstructed view, then F has to sit so G has an unobstructed view, etc.  Also, as a season-ticket holder in section C, let me say that under NO circumstances should students in B and D be made to sit to give C a clear view of the ice.  That's exactly the sort of thing people were afraid would happen when they put the booster seats in C, and it would kill Lynah in exactly the way everyone feared.  (Of course, I'd also prefer it if C stood as well, but that's an argument for another day.)

[Will]

[Q]I agree, to a point, but we should be careful not to get into the cycle where G has to sit so H has an unobstructed view, then F has to sit so G has an unobstructed view, etc.[/Q]

Well, to be fair, I don't think that particular event will ever happen. F doesn't block anyone's view of the ice whatsoever. Now, if G wants to look at the ugly mugs in E, well, that's another story. :-D

[Beeeej]

[q][q]And it wasn't even all that long ago that the tradition was not to stand for the whole game, but to stand only until Cornell scored their first goal - at which point the Faithful were generally pretty glad to get to sit down. So while it's pretty frustrating that the cops would enforce their will so selectively and abusively, the "fighting for tradition" argument doesn't hold a lot of water with me. If you really want to start fighting for tradition, you'd better be willing to ask Section B to sit down after Cornell's first goal of the evening.[/q]
My argument wasn't "fighting for tradition" so much as it was "getting all of the fans to actively show their support at the games", although that seems to have different interpretations. Beeeej, if you want to reinvigorate the sitting down after the first goal tradition, though, be my guest.[/q]

Who said anything about your argument?  I was responding to someone else who did say this was about fighting for tradition, and pointing out how short-term his view of tradition was.

I completely agree that it's a good thing to get all the fans to show their support actively at the games.  I disagree that any one group of fans has the right to demand that this support must be shown in one specific way that makes the game difficult for others to enjoy.  As has been said several times already, if sight-lines are being blocked, those blocking them should suck it up and sit down (except, as John said, for Section C's sight-lines.  Screw 'em (us)).

Beeeej

[mha]

Jim, it's not so much the use of the term "townies" to refer to the townies that I object to. It's the lumping of everyone who's not a student into a category in which not everyone fits.

I'm not a townie, I'm an alum. Many of the other people in Lynah who aren't students aren't townies; they're faculty members or staff at the University.

This isn't about town-gown relations. Lynah Rink is one place where there should be no divisiveness, this week's nonsense notwithstanding.

So, "One of the guys who," perhaps you should try "Everyone up," or "Stand up," or, as we did so effectively so many times before, just use a rising arm gesture (careful!) to convey the idea.

[DeltaOne81]

[Q]The begged question is: how was this first handled with the folks in G? Were notes placed on their seats explaining the situation and asking their cooperation, or something similar? Or did things begin with threats and intimidation.[/Q]

Well, this was the first night when section G really stood (a bit during the exhibition, but not that much). So they didn't have time to put notes on the seats. I guess we'll see tonight. However, as soon as the students in G really did start standing in good numbers, in typical University fashion, they didn't consult or ask or explain, they just threatened and kicked out. If someone in G or part of F wants to correct me, I'll yield, but it didn't look to me like there was too much conversation, just 'expulsion'.

I saw the first girl get booted (I think it was the first), and it was pretty easy to make out the general pattern of the conversation. The cop told her to sit, she asked why, he said something else, she asked why, he told her to leave. He would then escort the person out, come back, go up to a random the person at the front of the standing group, talk to the for maybe 5-10 seconds and then escort them out.

A friend I sit, err, stand with was ready to start an "@$$hole on a pwer trip" chant if it happene again. That's really what happened. This one cop decide it was his heavenly mission to kick out everyone who was standing (of course, that woulda taken all night) and did it without regards to the fact students are humans too. I think pulling out the pepper spray after 30 seconds shows that all too well.

So if it really does block people in H, well, it's a shame that G won't be able to stand, but the way we saw it unfold is just what led to a lot of anger. I wanted to explain why people had such angry reactions. Based on Section H's comments though (the poster, not the actual section :-) ), hopefully that won't be the case.

-Fred

P.S. As Volonnino revenge dude said, I don't mean townies as an insult either. Just a cute, convinient word to describe local residents. A large %age of 'townies' work for Cornell and we know that.

P.P.S. Greg, First off, I hope you don't think the majority of the students there are facetimers. Facetimers are a small (albeit annoying) breed. It maybe be tempting to think of the people in G, those with the later tickets, as more likely to be facetimers. Most years you'd probably be right. But htis year there were so many people camping overnight, that hardcore fans ended up in F and G. My aforementioned friend in F was celebrating his 21st birthday on the Sat of the ticket line. He only went to the bars for an hour before leaving and showing up at the hockey line around 1 am. For showing up at 1 am he got F. I know someone else in F too who was in B last year - not a facetimer at all. This is actually the reason why F (and somewhat G) are standing and never really have before.

P.P.P.S (man I can't shut up today) Beeeej, I didn't know that standing the whole game was a relatively new tradition, but it's one I'd like to keep. It's also a better incarnation of that basketball-esque idea of until the first score.

[Robb]

Don't feel TOO bad about not knowing the tradition, DeltaOne - it's not THAT new.  The way I remember it, we sat after the first goal during my freshman year (90-91), but we were standing the whole game by my senior year (93-94).  Might have had something to do with a number of home shutouts during that horrible period.  Ugh.  So standing the whole game does go back almost 10 years - but that will never count as a tradition for folks whose memories go back 20....

[Al DeFlorio]

John T. Whelan '91 wrote:

...and it would kill Lynah in exactly the way everyone feared.

Overstatement, I regret to say.  Lynah was very much "alive" (in fact, more so, IMHO) in the days before students stood.