Ivy League hockey recruiting

[adamw]

I was just reviewing the Frozen Four thread (good stuff - who knew RIT had a campus in Dubrovnik?) ... and I put a reply there, but I thought this issue was too "important" to overlook, so I created a new thread.

Someone in that thread made reference to Harvard-Yale-Princeton being able to give de facto athletic scholarships, and seemed to be referring to my article (based on the similar language used).

http://www.collegehockeynews.com/news/2013/04/11_ecac_presence_in_frozen_four.php

However, that poster seemed to miss the key sentence of the article, which directly addresses Cornell fans' concerns. And since those concerns were perpetuated throughout the Frozen Four thread, I thought I needed to point out that you shouldn't worry.

Furthermore, even though Cornell, Brown and Dartmouth do not have the endowments to do that, they successfully lobbied the Ivy League to allow their athletic programs to match whatever package Princeton, Harvard and Yale are offering.

Hope this helps.

[Rosey]

Furthermore, even though Cornell, Brown and Dartmouth do not have the endowments to do that, they successfully lobbied the Ivy League to allow their athletic programs to match whatever package Princeton, Harvard and Yale are offering.

But that's why Chris '03 said:

It's not a great position to be in for Cornell's recruiting approach to have to be "we want you to come here. Now go apply to HYP and when you get in, we'll get you a free ride here."

Our athletes need to be admitted to HYP before they'll get the upgraded financial aid packages (read: merit scholarships), at which point why wouldn't they just go to Yale (or theoretically H/P, if they don't really care about winning at hockey)?

[RatushnyFan]

Can Cornell match the H/Y/P packages "in general" or they can only match a specific package made to a player?  Sounds like there's room for gamesmanship, e.g. if Harvard knows that a kid really wants to go to Cornell, just deny admission so there's no package to match.

[adamw]

I don't believe they need to be admitted, just offered. However, admittedly, I don't know all of the details.

[KeithK]

Furthermore, even though Cornell, Brown and Dartmouth do not have the endowments to do that, they successfully lobbied the Ivy League to allow their athletic programs to match whatever package Princeton, Harvard and Yale are offering.

But that's why Chris '03 said:

It's not a great position to be in for Cornell's recruiting approach to have to be "we want you to come here. Now go apply to HYP and when you get in, we'll get you a free ride here."

Our athletes need to be admitted to HYP before they'll get the upgraded financial aid packages (read: merit scholarships), at which point why wouldn't they just go to Yale (or theoretically H/P, if they don't really care about winning at hockey)?

Because maybe the kid likes Ithaca better than New Haven. Or was more impressed by Schafer than Allain. Or maybe see's a better opportunity for playing time given the rosters at a given moment in time. Ot...

I think there's more to recruiting than just picking the most successful team that wants you and going there. Sure, Yale has a gew nice things going for them both inside and outside of hockey right now but that doesn't huarantee that a specific recruit would choose them over another school.  Financials are much more likely to do that so the idea here is to remove that potential advantage/impediment.

[George64]

Furthermore, even though Cornell, Brown and Dartmouth do not have the endowments to do that, they successfully lobbied the Ivy League to allow their athletic programs to match whatever package Princeton, Harvard and Yale are offering.

I need some clarification.  I thought that financial aid was essentially "need based" and administered though Day Hall, not Bartels Hall.  I was under the impression (perhaps naively) that the HYP match applied to all Cornell students.  While I've attended far more athletic events than Glee Club concerts or poetry readings, I like to think that all students are treated equally when it comes to financial assistance.  Shouldn't we compete as hard for a brilliant physics major as for a prospective All Ivy athlete?

As I recall, when I was an undergraduate, financial aid officers from the Ivy schools and a few others met to equalize aid packages, but that practice was discontinued because it violated antitrust laws, creating the imbalance that existed until the current policy.

[adamw]

Like I said, I don't claim to have all the details ... but I do know it was huge for hockey coaches, who all talk about it.

I was under the impression that - which the ability to match was for all students (athletes or not) - that it was only for athletics that the Ivy League's permission was needed. In the case of athletics, it was necessary to get Ivy League approval, since it's the Ivy League that doesn't allow the awarding of athletic scholarships.  Even though what H-Y-P is doing is not actually an athletic scholarship, its effect on sports is obvious - and the Ivy League recognized the need for fairness for its other non-H-Y-P sports programs.

The Ivy League basically had to give its permission to say that Cornell could match a Harvard aid package without it being considered an athletic scholarship.

At least, that's my understanding.

[Ben]

I need some clarification.  I thought that financial aid was essentially "need based" and administered though Day Hall, not Bartels Hall.  I was under the impression (perhaps naively) that the HYP match applied to all Cornell students.  While I've attended far more athletic events than Glee Club concerts or poetry readings, I like to think that all students are treated equally when it comes to financial assistance.  Shouldn't we compete as hard for a brilliant physics major as for a prospective All Ivy athlete?

I don't recall Professor Hull taking any trips to recruit the country's best high school historians.

[adamw]

I just had it clarified to me that, if HYP are actively recruiting the player, the other schools can match what the offer would be, based upon HYP's online calculator as a guide.

[BMac]

Matching the higher scholarships of wealthier Ivy League schools to ensure athletic competitiveness...  that's about as close to giving athletic scholarships as I'd ever like Cornell to be. Or perhaps it's over the line.

I'm conflicted.

It's unfair to the rest of us, but it's more fair for athletic competitions against other Ivies. The Ivy League was created to enshrine a group of schools that did not sacrifice academic priorities to pursue athletic fairness. We would be uncompetitive together. Now, as a result of government pressure to spend endowments, the wealthier members have created an imbalance in our little group. Is it unprincipled to sacrifice academic priorities to remain competitive within our (not-that-) uncompetitive group?

I love Cornell hockey, but I'm starting to think that the answer may be no. I would not be pleased to learn that a squash player got a higher scholarship because Harvard offered them a nicer package.

[KeithK]

Matching the higher scholarships of wealthier Ivy League schools to ensure athletic competitiveness...  that's about as close to giving athletic scholarships as I'd ever like Cornell to be. Or perhaps it's over the line.

I'm conflicted.

It's unfair to the rest of us, but it's more fair for athletic competitions against other Ivies. The Ivy League was created to enshrine a group of schools that did not sacrifice academic priorities to pursue athletic fairness. We would be uncompetitive together. Now, as a result of government pressure to spend endowments, the wealthier members have created an imbalance in our little group. Is it unprincipled to sacrifice academic priorities to remain competitive within our (not-that-) uncompetitive group?

I love Cornell hockey, but I'm starting to think that the answer may be no. I would not be pleased to learn that a squash player got a higher scholarship because Harvard offered them a nicer package.

This discussion is centered around athletics. But do we know whether this affects non-athletes as well?  The Ivy schools are now prohibited from sharing aid packages among themselves but that doesn't prevent Cornell from using the Harvard online calculator for any student to determine what kinds of financial aid packages they're up against.  I suspect they do. If admissions routinely makes comparisons with other Ivy guarantees for the general student body then doing it for athletes becomes less of a concern.

The difference, of course, is that an athete has an advocate pressuring the admissions to match and offer while a non-athlete does not.

[Ben]

Matching the higher scholarships of wealthier Ivy League schools to ensure athletic competitiveness...  that's about as close to giving athletic scholarships as I'd ever like Cornell to be. Or perhaps it's over the line.

I'm conflicted.

It's unfair to the rest of us, but it's more fair for athletic competitions against other Ivies. The Ivy League was created to enshrine a group of schools that did not sacrifice academic priorities to pursue athletic fairness. We would be uncompetitive together. Now, as a result of government pressure to spend endowments, the wealthier members have created an imbalance in our little group. Is it unprincipled to sacrifice academic priorities to remain competitive within our (not-that-) uncompetitive group?

I love Cornell hockey, but I'm starting to think that the answer may be no. I would not be pleased to learn that a squash player got a higher scholarship because Harvard offered them a nicer package.

This discussion is centered around athletics. But do we know whether this affects non-athletes as well?  The Ivy schools are now prohibited from sharing aid packages among themselves but that doesn't prevent Cornell from using the Harvard online calculator for any student to determine what kinds of financial aid packages they're up against.  I suspect they do. If admissions routinely makes comparisons with other Ivy guarantees for the general student body then doing it for athletes becomes less of a concern.

The difference, of course, is that an athete has an advocate pressuring the admissions to match and offer while a non-athlete does not.

It also means that financial aid is not wholly need-based.

To go back to the allusion I made before, I believe that athletic recruiting runs counter to the Ivy League academics-first principles. If Cornell is going to recruit, it should recruit biologists, engineers, Hotelies, architects, etc. Not athletes.

[KeithK]

It also means that financial aid is not wholly need-based.

Not necessarily.  It just means we're using a different definition of need. That is, HYP's definition.

Snark aside, I don't think the need-based financial aid policy ever guaranteed that all students would get the same types of aid, just that all students would be admitted without consideration of need and would receive a package equal to their computed need. One kid could get a larger percentage of grants vs. loans.  So we may not have been as "pure" as advertised. (Am I remembering this wrong?)

To go back to the allusion I made before, I believe that athletic recruiting runs counter to the Ivy League academics-first principles. If Cornell is going to recruit, it should recruit biologists, engineers, Hotelies, architects, etc. Not athletes.

I see your point and am sympathetic to it. Taking this position does imply that Cornell will not have D1 athletics though, since recruiting is a fact of life at this level. That might be an acceptable outcome to maintain our principles, but we shouldn
t kid ourselvees about the consequences.

I's pretty hard to actively recruit biologists, hotelies, architects,etc. since there isn't a comparable practical for high school students to directly demonstrate their suitability for these fields in the way there is for sports.  Schools do certainly recruit top caliber students though.

[Ben]

It also means that financial aid is not wholly need-based.

Not necessarily.  It just means we're using a different definition of need. That is, HYP's definition.

Snark aside, I don't think the need-based financial aid policy ever guaranteed that all students would get the same types of aid, just that all students would be admitted without consideration of need and would receive a package equal to their computed need. One kid could get a larger percentage of grants vs. loans.  So we may not have been as "pure" as advertised. (Am I remembering this wrong?)

Not really. The cutoff (GPA, SAT/ACT) is higher at HYP than it is here. Students who get admitted to one of HYP as well as Cornell will probably have higher measurable academic attributes than students who only get into Cornell. Because of this, Cornell will be offering financial aid packages that are effectively merit-based.

To go back to the allusion I made before, I believe that athletic recruiting runs counter to the Ivy League academics-first principles. If Cornell is going to recruit, it should recruit biologists, engineers, Hotelies, architects, etc. Not athletes.

I see your point and am sympathetic to it. Taking this position does imply that Cornell will not have D1 athletics though, since recruiting is a fact of life at this level. That might be an acceptable outcome to maintain our principles, but we shouldn't kid ourselvees about the consequences.

I's pretty hard to actively recruit biologists, hotelies, architects,etc. since there isn't a comparable practical for high school students to directly demonstrate their suitability for these fields in the way there is for sports.  Schools do certainly recruit top caliber students though.

As I've mentioned elsewhere on these boards, I would support Cornell ending varsity athletics altogether. In terms of recruiting students, I remember getting bucketloads of (form) letters from colleges after taking the PSAT, so there is some available information on high school students' academic performance. Form letters, though, are pretty different from a visit by a coach/professor.

[KeithK]

Not really. The cutoff (GPA, SAT/ACT) is higher at HYP than it is here. Students who get admitted to one of HYP as well as Cornell will probably have higher measurable academic attributes than students who only get into Cornell. Because of this, Cornell will be offering financial aid packages that are effectively merit-based.

I was trying to say that there may already have been some bias in aid packages based on merit, just not on the size of the package. Anyway, I don't have a problem with giving merit based aid.   Once you guarantee to provide financial need to all students I don't think it's a bad thing to give more aid to better candidates. I actually think it's a good thing. But YMMV.

As I've mentioned elsewhere on these boards, I would support Cornell ending varsity athletics altogether.

Yeah, I think I do remember you saying that about athletics.  Probably wouldn't be a popular opinion in this forum :-) but it's certainly principled.