Kyle Dake and other dominant Cornell athletes

[George64]

Kyle Dake's extraordinary achievements led me to think about other truly dominant Cornell athletes.  By dominant I mean athletes who stood head and shoulders above their intercollegiate peers as defined by sport and era (to accommodate changed levels of competition).    

The following list is biased towards athletes of the last 50 years because that coincides with my time on the Hill and as an alum.  It's also biased towards the sports that I've followed most closely and towards men's teams, because until recently women have played in their shadows.  Because Ivy football and basketball lack parity with nationally ranked teams, I've set the bar lower for these two sports.

Men's Hockey:  Ken Dryden, Doug Ferguson, Bruce Pattison, Dan Lodboa, Doug Murray, Lance Nethery, Joe Nieuwendyk, Dan Ratushny.

Men's Lacrosse:  Mark Webster, Butch Hilliard, Bruce Cohen, Mike French, Eamon McEneany, Bill Marino, Tim Goldstein, Max Siebald, Rob Pannell.

Football:  Gary Wood, Pete Gogolak, Ed Marinaro, Chris Zingo, Chad Levitt, Tom McHale, Kevin Boothe.

Wrestling:  Dave Auble, Travis Lee, Kyle Dake.

Basketball: Chuck Rolles, Ryan Whittman.

Track and Field:  Charlie Moore, Meredith Gourdine.

Women's Hockey:  Rebecca Johnston, Laura Fortino, Lauriane Rougeau, with more to follow soon.

As I thought about this, I realized just how many extraordinary athletes I've seen over the years or at least read about.  I've set the bar high -- this list excludes scores of All-Americans.  I'm sure that I've left out many deserving candidates.

[TimV]

Add to Lacrosse: Three-time First team All-Ivys Bob Shaw, Joe Bouloukas, Matt McMonagle.  And 6 more Lacrosse Hall of Famers  - Bob Henrickson, Chris Kane, Bob Rule, Kevin Cook, Norm Engelke, Dan Mackesey.

Paul Schimoler?

(just your/our...era.  Probably 3-4 more if we go deep.)

[Chuck Henderson]

I always like these kinds of lists.

With this many names, this almost  becomes a list of top Cornell athletes rather than the truly elite at Dake's level.  Koll is describing Dake as the best collegiate wrester in history.  That's probably accurate when one figures in that the other 2 4-time champions red-shirted.  Related to an earlier thread, one obvious reason for Dake's moving up 3 weight classes is that he started as a true freshmen; as he somewhat endearing said on ESPN right after his win, he was only a boy when he started at Cornell.

Limiting myself also only to the 1950s or very late 40s on, key additions are

Bo Roberson, who was certainly the best all-around athlete ever at Cornell and who had a pretty nice pro football career after finishing second to Ralph Boston by a small fraction of an inch in the long jump at the 1960 Olympics.

Dick Savitt in tennis.

Al Hall in the hammer throw,  I guess Walt Ashbaugh by finishing only fourth in the '52 Olympics (Moore and Gourdine winning that year) may not make the list.

Frank Bettucci in wresting.  There are others that could also be named in wresting, but he along with Auble was named the outstanding wrestler at the NCAAs.

I think I've said this previously, but the proportion of Cornell NCAA wresting champions from Ithaca (the Ithaca areas) is pretty high: 1 by Bettucci, 2 by Auble, 4 by Dake.

[billhoward]

Dake. Dryden and Nieuwendyk. Marinaro. French and McEneaney; most likely Siebald and now Pannell. There's a difference between players for the ages and yet another Cornell All-America selection.

French and McEneaney were not just two of the greatest ever to play the game but they complemented each other in their 2 overlapping years. We're seeing that again with the Pannell-Mock combo. Had French and McEneaney been eligible for play as freshmen, French's career numbers might have been 250-130-380 and the 1974 attack would have been freshman McEneneaney, sophomore Frech, and senior Jim Trenz who ranks fourth all-time in lacrosse scoring PPG; Cornell might have gotten further than the NCAA semifinals.

[Al DeFlorio]

Dake. Dryden and Nieuwendyk. Marinaro. French and McEneaney; most likely Siebald and now Pannell. There's a difference between players for the ages and yet another Cornell All-America selection.

I agree with Bill, though not sure yet about Seibald.  

There may also be football players from the Dobie era who might qualify, like Eddie Kaw or George Pfann.  Dan Jenkins prepared a "retro Heisman" list to recognize those who he felt would have won the Heisman if it had been given back in their era, and he selected Pfann for 1923.  Red Grange was runner-up.

http://www.footballfoundation.org/Portals/7/nff/file_file/2009_footballetter_issue_3.pdf

[Ben]

Dake. Dryden and Nieuwendyk. Marinaro. French and McEneaney; most likely Siebald and now Pannell. There's a difference between players for the ages and yet another Cornell All-America selection.

Some WICErs deserve to be here.

Surely Johnston. She could grab the game by the scruff of the neck and beat it into submission. If Jenner plays her senior season like she did in the second half of this year, she should also be on the list. It's not as obvious, but Rougeau was very hard to get around, and some of her forays up the ice were magnificent.

[RichH]

I agree with Bill, though not sure yet about Seibald.  

I'm can't wait to see what he does this season to help you make up your mind. =]

[dag14]

Seibald was the best lax player in the country his senior year.  That doesn't qualify him for this list?

[Al DeFlorio]

Seibald was the best lax player in the country his senior year.  That doesn't qualify him for this list?

Not necessarily for Bill's "player for the ages" criterion, which is the criterion I was commenting on.  I'm not sure every Enners award winner (a more meaningful award, to me, than the Tewaaraton, by the way, and one which Max also was awarded) is a player for the ages.  Many are obvious at the time they graduate:  Frank Urso, Gary Gait, Dave Pietramala, French, McEneaney, for example).  Others get sorted out over time.  Pannell will likely finish #3 on the all-time points list (an advantage attackmen have statistically over middies) which may cement his position as an all-time great.

Feel free to put anyone you'd like on your list.

[RichH]

Seibald was the best lax player in the country his senior year.  That doesn't qualify him for this list?

Not necessarily for Bill's "player for the ages" criterion, which is the criterion I was commenting on.  I'm not sure every Enners award winner (a more meaningful award, to me, than the Tewaaraton, by the way, and one which Max also was awarded) is a player for the ages.  Many are obvious at the time they graduate:  Frank Urso, Gary Gait, Dave Pietramala, French, McEneaney, for example).  Others get sorted out over time.  Pannell will likely finish #3 on the all-time points list (an advantage attackmen have statistically over middies) which may cement his position as an all-time great.

Feel free to put anyone you'd like on your list.

I don't get the "over time" part. Max and the players of his era aren't going back on the field to decide things.  Either he was among the best players of his generation, or he wasn't. That's not going to change now or 10 years from now.

Just thinking about this is bringing how I feel about baseball HOF voting into sharper focus.

[Al DeFlorio]

Seibald was the best lax player in the country his senior year.  That doesn't qualify him for this list?

Not necessarily for Bill's "player for the ages" criterion, which is the criterion I was commenting on.  I'm not sure every Enners award winner (a more meaningful award, to me, than the Tewaaraton, by the way, and one which Max also was awarded) is a player for the ages.  Many are obvious at the time they graduate:  Frank Urso, Gary Gait, Dave Pietramala, French, McEneaney, for example).  Others get sorted out over time.  Pannell will likely finish #3 on the all-time points list (an advantage attackmen have statistically over middies) which may cement his position as an all-time great.

Feel free to put anyone you'd like on your list.

I don't get the "over time" part. Max and the players of his era aren't going back on the field to decide things.  Either he was among the best players of his generation, or he wasn't. That's not going to change now or 10 years from now.

Just thinking about this is bringing how I feel about baseball HOF voting into sharper focus.

OK, then don't get it.  I'm OK with that.  Really.  I don't disagree that Max was "among the best players of his generation (a somewhat vague time period, to be sure), but that may or may not make him a "player for the ages," which is the criterion Bill used and I agreed with.

[Cornell95]

I can see both sides to this, but am inclined to consider the 'over time' element

It is one thing for you to be an All-American a couple years, or dominate the Ivy League competition
But I think when you are trying to develop a short list, it sometimes takes a few years to recognize not only that an athlete was dominant for 2-3 years in college, but also see that 5years after they have left the playing field another athlete hasnt stepped in and shown that same dominance.

For an achievement like Dake's we can assume that we wont see other wrestlers matching it in the near future, if ever (there were only 2 other 4 time champions even right?)
When you have something like a lacrosse midfielder, I think in the back of your mind there is always the question of whether your new allstar might be matched by a dozen other athletes in 3-5 years.

just my 2 cents

[RichH]

OK, then don't get it.

Christ Al, that was an invitation to try to explain your position, but you chose to bring the grumpus instead.  I *want* to get it. I don't like being left in the dark.

I'm OK with that.  Really.  I don't disagree that Max was "among the best players of his generation (a somewhat vague time period, to be sure), but that may or may not make him a "player for the ages," which is the criterion Bill used and I agreed with.

It's a fair question. What in particular will dawn on you 5 years from now that hasn't today, four years following his graduation?  Will your definition of "player for the ages" change? Will Seibald's stats look more impressive if the game shifts to a different style in the future?  If a future middie leads the Red to an NCAA Championship in 2019, will Max's lack of one diminish him in your eye? I'm sincerely interested in this concept and not trying to be jerky this time, I swear.

[billhoward]

We may appreciate goalies more in hindsight rather than the "Iles Is Not the Answer" yapping you hear while the goalie is playing. (Not saying Iles is going to be on the best-of-all-time lists. He's just the current pinata.) Everyone else, I think it's more a matter that the exploits of an All-America player may - might - dim a bit when you compare him in hindsight. For a Matt Moulson, we'll recall him as an even greater Cornell player because of his pro exploits even present success is not an indicator of past performance. Seibald, I believe, is always going to be one of Cornell's greatest ever in lacrosse.

[Swampy]

We may appreciate goalies more in hindsight rather than the "Iles Is Not the Answer" yapping you hear while the goalie is playing. (Not saying Iles is going to be on the best-of-all-time lists. He's just the current pinata.) Everyone else, I think it's more a matter that the exploits of an All-America player may - might - dim a bit when you compare him in hindsight. For a Matt Moulson, we'll recall him as an even greater Cornell player because of his pro exploits even present success is not an indicator of past performance. Seibald, I believe, is always going to be one of Cornell's greatest ever in lacrosse.

Yeah, but not winning a NC does tarnish things. And I'm a great fan of Max's. But the fact is that the rest of the 2009 team wasn't exactly chopped liver. With a truly great-for-the-ages player, I do think you need "the ring," as they say in the pros, unless the rest of the team stunk. This clearly was not the case.

On the other hand, great players have to be taken in the context of the game at the time they played and the team the played on. Bruce Cohen comes to mind.