Cornell-Ferris State In Progress

[Josh '99]

I think their band is a music group with a drinking problem...

Wait, are we talking about Clarkson or Cornell?  ::drunk::

Damn i wasn't paying attention. Drinking group with a music problem

I'm still not sure which we're talking about or why it's a bad thing.  :-}

[Aaron M. Griffin]

The best part of the truth of that statement is that the College of William & Mary and Rutgers are the only two that make sense to join the Ivy League. W&M more so than Rutgers. All of the pre-Declaration of Independence universities except W&M and Rutgers are members of the Ivy League. W&M is very similar in philosophy to the Ivy League institutions and its prioritization of undergraduate education, as well as its reluctance to abandon the title college despite being a functioning university, resembles Dartmouth. I doubt there is a procedure for expansion of the Ivy League in the bylaws of the League.

There are problems with all of these legends.  One is that the alleged, distant past "invitations" almost always predated the actual existence of the Ivy League.  Another, particular to Rutgers and to William & Mary, is that the stories often claim the schools declined because they were public institutions and unwilling to privatize in order to meet the Ivy League's "criteria" - forgetting that Cornell is partly public, and the Ivy League had no problem with our membership.

Another problem of course is that none of these "invitations" ever actually happened, but that's almost beside the point.

I know for a fact that Rutgers refers to itself as a member of the "Ancient Eight." William and Mary might too. Depending on who you ask, the Ancient Eight is the Ivy League or it's the 8 of the 9 colleges founded before the signing of the Declaration of Independence (All of the Ivies except Cornell plus Rutgers and W&M. I'm not sure which one of the other 7 Ivies gets left out. Probably Dartmouth since after Cornell they're the "youngest.")

I studied a year at the College of William & Mary. They don't refer to themselves or their institution as a member of the Ancient Eight. The president of the College referred to the College as "ancient by all standards on our side of the Atlantic" when Queen Elizabeth II visited in 2007 (during the celebration of the quadricentennial of Jamestown), but other than that W&M students are preoccupied with the intellectual rivalry with UVa ("Mr. Jefferson's Alma Mater" vs. "Mr. Jefferson's University" ). They do not associate with the Ivy League.

[Aaron M. Griffin]

The best part of the truth of that statement is that the College of William & Mary and Rutgers are the only two that make sense to join the Ivy League. W&M more so than Rutgers. All of the pre-Declaration of Independence universities except W&M and Rutgers are members of the Ivy League. W&M is very similar in philosophy to the Ivy League institutions and its prioritization of undergraduate education, as well as its reluctance to abandon the title college despite being a functioning university, resembles Dartmouth. I doubt there is a procedure for expansion of the Ivy League in the bylaws of the League.

There are problems with all of these legends.  One is that the alleged, distant past "invitations" almost always predated the actual existence of the Ivy League.  Another, particular to Rutgers and to William & Mary, is that the stories often claim the schools declined because they were public institutions and unwilling to privatize in order to meet the Ivy League's "criteria" - forgetting that Cornell is partly public, and the Ivy League had no problem with our membership.

Another problem of course is that none of these "invitations" ever actually happened, but that's almost beside the point.

I know for a fact that Rutgers refers to itself as a member of the "Ancient Eight." William and Mary might too. Depending on who you ask, the Ancient Eight is the Ivy League or it's the 8 of the 9 colleges founded before the signing of the Declaration of Independence (All of the Ivies except Cornell plus Rutgers and W&M. I'm not sure which one of the other 7 Ivies gets left out. Probably Dartmouth since after Cornell they're the "youngest.")

But they were chartered by the King... and as a result own about half of New Hampshire.

...and New York and Virginia extend to the Pacific. ;-)

[css228]

I think their band is a music group with a drinking problem...

Wait, are we talking about Clarkson or Cornell?  ::drunk::

Damn i wasn't paying attention. Drinking group with a music problem

I'm still not sure which we're talking about or why it's a bad thing.  :-}

Drinking group with a music problem refers to Clarkson. Nothing wrong with their drinking, plenty wrong with their being allowed to touch musical instruments.

[Beeeej]

I am still curious if the Ivy League does have an expansion protocol. Most athletic conferences do. I am curious if from the creation in 1954, the group was viewed as a hermetic group. I am curious what the voting procedure would be if there is one. The Big Ten requires 70% of current members to add a new member (8/11 when Nebraska was added (I am not sure about the rounding with the 12 current members if 9 or 8 members would be needed)).

There is no provision in the Ivy Group Agreement for expansion.

http://www.archives.upenn.edu/histy/features/imagepenn/ivy1954.html

[Aaron M. Griffin]

I am still curious if the Ivy League does have an expansion protocol. Most athletic conferences do. I am curious if from the creation in 1954, the group was viewed as a hermetic group. I am curious what the voting procedure would be if there is one. The Big Ten requires 70% of current members to add a new member (8/11 when Nebraska was added (I am not sure about the rounding with the 12 current members if 9 or 8 members would be needed)).

There is no provision in the Ivy Group Agreement for expansion.

http://www.archives.upenn.edu/histy/features/imagepenn/ivy1954.html

Thank you.

I think that should put to rest a lot of the fallacious myths from the other institutions. I know that they will continue saying it despite the overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

[Jim Hyla]

I am still curious if the Ivy League does have an expansion protocol. Most athletic conferences do. I am curious if from the creation in 1954, the group was viewed as a hermetic group. I am curious what the voting procedure would be if there is one. The Big Ten requires 70% of current members to add a new member (8/11 when Nebraska was added (I am not sure about the rounding with the 12 current members if 9 or 8 members would be needed)).

There is no provision in the Ivy Group Agreement for expansion.

http://www.archives.upenn.edu/histy/features/imagepenn/ivy1954.html

But there must be further MOUs or other documents since then. At least dealing with freshmen playing varsity. Even so this has to be the shortest athletic conf agreement ever. What's the matter Beeeej, weren't you around to set them straight back then.::bolt::

[Beeeej]

There is no provision in the Ivy Group Agreement for expansion.

http://www.archives.upenn.edu/histy/features/imagepenn/ivy1954.html

But there must be further MOUs or other documents since then. At least dealing with freshmen playing varsity. Even so this has to be the shortest athletic conf agreement ever. What's the matter Beeeej, weren't you around to set them straight back then.::bolt::

They wouldn't listen to me because I was wearing gray with red lettering instead of red and white.

[Jim Hyla]

There is no provision in the Ivy Group Agreement for expansion.

http://www.archives.upenn.edu/histy/features/imagepenn/ivy1954.html

But there must be further MOUs or other documents since then. At least dealing with freshmen playing varsity. Even so this has to be the shortest athletic conf agreement ever. What's the matter Beeeej, weren't you around to set them straight back then.::bolt::

They wouldn't listen to me because I was wearing gray with red lettering instead of red and white.

Well good for them then. They were a smarter group than I would have imagined.

[kingpin248]

I am still curious if the Ivy League does have an expansion protocol. Most athletic conferences do. I am curious if from the creation in 1954, the group was viewed as a hermetic group. I am curious what the voting procedure would be if there is one. The Big Ten requires 70% of current members to add a new member (8/11 when Nebraska was added (I am not sure about the rounding with the 12 current members if 9 or 8 members would be needed)).

There is no provision in the Ivy Group Agreement for expansion.

http://www.archives.upenn.edu/histy/features/imagepenn/ivy1954.html

Thank you.

I think that should put to rest a lot of the fallacious myths from the other institutions. I know that they will continue saying it despite the overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

There is another roadblock preventing most Division I members from even considering membership in the Ivy League - NC$$ regulations. Bylaw 20.9.1 of the Division I Manual details minimum financial aid requirements for membership in the division. It also contains the following clause (20.9.1.2.7): "Member institutions that did not award any athletically related financial aid in any sport as of January 11, 1991, shall be exempted from the minimum requirements." Thus, it seems that no Division I member outside the Ivy League (except the three service academies?) could adopt the League's prohibition on athletic scholarships without jeopardizing its Division I status.

EDIT: The clause I quoted makes no mention of schools who did not award scholarships in 1991 but have subsequently changed that policy (i.e. most members of the Patriot League).

[KeithK]

There is another roadblock preventing most Division I members from even considering membership in the Ivy League - NC$$ regulations. Bylaw 20.9.1 of the Division I Manual details minimum financial aid requirements for membership in the division. It also contains the following clause (20.9.1.2.7): "Member institutions that did not award any athletically related financial aid in any sport as of January 11, 1991, shall be exempted from the minimum requirements." Thus, it seems that no Division I member outside the Ivy League (except the three service academies?) could adopt the League's prohibition on athletic scholarships without jeopardizing its Division I status.

That's just mind boggling. I understand why you wouldn't allow scholarships in D3 because that provides an unfair advantage.  but if a school wanted to play up why in the world would you stop them?

[Swampy]

The best part of the truth of that statement is that the College of William & Mary and Rutgers are the only two that make sense to join the Ivy League. W&M more so than Rutgers. All of the pre-Declaration of Independence universities except W&M and Rutgers are members of the Ivy League. W&M is very similar in philosophy to the Ivy League institutions and its prioritization of undergraduate education, as well as its reluctance to abandon the title college despite being a functioning university, resembles Dartmouth. I doubt there is a procedure for expansion of the Ivy League in the bylaws of the League.

There are problems with all of these legends.  One is that the alleged, distant past "invitations" almost always predated the actual existence of the Ivy League.  Another, particular to Rutgers and to William & Mary, is that the stories often claim the schools declined because they were public institutions and unwilling to privatize in order to meet the Ivy League's "criteria" - forgetting that Cornell is partly public, and the Ivy League had no problem with our membership.

Another problem of course is that none of these "invitations" ever actually happened, but that's almost beside the point.

And of course, at one time Yale, Brown, and Dartmouth were partly "public" in the sense that they were designated as land-grant institutions. Harvard was public in that tolls on the bridge between Cambridge and Boston went to support Harvard. In fact, most of the older "private" institutions had some form of public subsidy.

[Jim Hyla]

There is another roadblock preventing most Division I members from even considering membership in the Ivy League - NC$$ regulations. Bylaw 20.9.1 of the Division I Manual details minimum financial aid requirements for membership in the division. It also contains the following clause (20.9.1.2.7): "Member institutions that did not award any athletically related financial aid in any sport as of January 11, 1991, shall be exempted from the minimum requirements." Thus, it seems that no Division I member outside the Ivy League (except the three service academies?) could adopt the League's prohibition on athletic scholarships without jeopardizing its Division I status.

That's just mind boggling. I understand why you wouldn't allow scholarships in D3 because that provides an unfair advantage.  but if a school wanted to play up why in the world would you stop them?

Can you imagine what might happen if one of those schools started to win? Afterall it is all about money. Speaking of which, has anyone read Josh Luch's new book on college athletics and the NCAA, "Illegal Procedure"? I caught part of an inteview on Terry Gross's show "Fresh Air". It sounded interesting. His way of solving the pay players question, was to let agents legally loan them money. I guess if your destined for the pros that would help, but the other 99% would get nothing. About par for the course I guess.

[David Harding]

I am still curious if the Ivy League does have an expansion protocol. Most athletic conferences do. I am curious if from the creation in 1954, the group was viewed as a hermetic group. I am curious what the voting procedure would be if there is one. The Big Ten requires 70% of current members to add a new member (8/11 when Nebraska was added (I am not sure about the rounding with the 12 current members if 9 or 8 members would be needed)).

There is no provision in the Ivy Group Agreement for expansion.

http://www.archives.upenn.edu/histy/features/imagepenn/ivy1954.html

But there must be further MOUs or other documents since then. At least dealing with freshmen playing varsity. Even so this has to be the shortest athletic conf agreement ever. What's the matter Beeeej, weren't you around to set them straight back then.::bolt::

Thank you Beeeej for the link to the two documents.
I especially like the end of the original 1945 agreement:

In all phases of this agreement, as well as in the work of the proposed Committees, no important and enduring results are likely to be obtained except as the relationship of the subscribing institutions is genuinely cooperative.  Rigid application of set rules is almost certain to doom the undertaking to failure.  On the other hand, wise and flexible administration in the setting of mutual respect and good faith among the subscribing institutions should produce results of great benefit to the game and well as to the institutions participating.  It is firmly believed that the undertaking as a whole has large promise and should be given every available support.

The more formally structured 1954 agreement has plenty of flexibility built in.  

It is expected that the Committee on Eligibility will keep all matters coming within the purview of this agreement, including eligibility questions, under constant review and shall from time to time make recommendations to the Presidents' Policy Committee with respect to any changes in policy deemed to be advisable.

The Presidents' Policy Committee ... shall have full and final responsibility for the determination of all agreed policies of the Group ...

The Presidents' Policy Committee shall take decisions on all matters within its responsibility by the affirmative vote of six members of the Group.

A subscribing member may withdraw from the Group upon giving written notice of such intention two years in advance.  Amendments of the agreement pertaining to membership shall be made only with the approval of all the institutions acting through their respective governing boards."

Somebody's archives must have correspondence that would confirm or refute the claims of invitations.  
The Wikipedia entry for Ivy League has a long discussion of the norigins and quotes Cornell's Rym Berry in 1936

I can say with certainty that in the last five years—and markedly in the last three months—there has been a strong drift among the eight or ten universities of the East which see a good deal of one another in sport toward a closer bond of confidence and cooperation and toward the formation of a common front against the threat of a breakdown in the ideals of amateur sport in the interests of supposed expediency. Please do not regard that statement as implying the organization of an Eastern conference or even a poetic "Ivy League". That sort of thing does not seem to be in the cards at the moment.

[Emphasis added.]

[KeithK]

His way of solving the pay players question, was to let agents legally loan them money. I guess if your destined for the pros that would help, but the other 99% would get nothing. About par for the course I guess.

The agents then become a sort of athletics venture capitalist. I kind of like it.