Harvard 6 Cornell 1 ECAC post-game & site critique

[nyc94]

Newark. . . it's convenient to a major airport (if that's relevant) and to highways.

And trains.  But it won't happen.

[Jeff Hopkins '82]

I'm surprised that nobody has really mentioned the Ivy League "factor".  We've already seen how the Ivy League rules have made our football and basketball teams nationally uncompetitive.  It's something we basically accept (although some of us don't like it).  

I think football and basketball basically cratered almost instantly because there were 2-300 schools that were competing for talent.  What I believe we're starting to see is that factor starting to come into play in hockey.  There are a lot more DI schools now than there were when Hockey East formed.  Hell, there are even more Hockey East Schools now than when it formed.  

I think those new schools are finally diluting the talent pool to a point where the Ivy League rules are making the whole conference suffer.  And I don't see name recognition or school location fixing it.  This is a downward spiral that is the result of withdrawing from the national "way things are done."  If you want to compete you don't hamstring yorurself.  

Maybe the new financial aid rules will help some, but I have my doubts.

[Greenberg '97]

And for marketing purposes, if East Rutherford is close enough that the NFL can call it "New York" (for the Giants and the Jets, and presumably for the 2014 Super Bowl) then Newark is close enough that the ECAC can do the same.  Maybe it's ridiculous, but it's a thought.

All this talk of Newark, yet I don't think I've seen anyone mention the Izod Center (nee Brendan Byrne Arena).  Both of its pro tenants are long gone, and it was certainly built with ice hockey in mind. (Edit: scoop85 mentioned it after last year's finals)

Yes, the facility has about as much charm as the one out in Uniondale, and is probably slated for demolition or down-scaling, but its proximity to New York should at least bring it into the discussion.  Ticketmaster shows 16 events listed between now and August, so it's not like we'd be competing with some big money maker.

[RichH]

Thanks to scoop85, css228, bnr24, Ben, and jtn27 for your thoughtful replies.

I think back to the 2003 & 2005 teams (and even 1996 because it was a big renaissance of the program) and there were stretches where we just didn't feel like Cornell would lose as soon as they stepped on the ice each night.  When teams like that put it together and go on a run, there's a feeling around the Faithful (young and old) of "We will follow this team to the end of the earth, I don't care what it takes."  It's kind of infectious.  I hope it happens again and hits the students.

[billhoward]

Thanks to scoop85, css228, bnr24, Ben, and jtn27 for your thoughtful replies.

I think back to the 2003 & 2005 teams (and even 1996 because it was a big renaissance of the program) and there were stretches where we just didn't feel like Cornell would lose as soon as they stepped on the ice each night.  When teams like that put it together and go on a run, there's a feeling around the Faithful (young and old) of "We will follow this team to the end of the earth, I don't care what it takes."  It's kind of infectious.  I hope it happens again and hits the students.

Sure, the fans said "the end of the earth," but that was before Atlantic City, New Jersey.

[Jim Hyla]

So my two cents. Unless you can get Boston, or maybe NYC, to work, forget a "destination" arena. There just aren't any for us. Our problems are small schools without name recognition. I'll bet PSU will not have problems with attendance. You've got 40,000, or some odd (maybe both), students. You're going to have some go to games. HEA works because of the schools in Boston, CCHA works, as Adam says, because UM is next door, WCHA works because it's Minneapolis. Those are all big hockey towns, with big schools nearby. Well maybe not Boston, but a lot of rabid small hockey schools nearby. We will never have that. Look at AHA, it's not really working in Rochester any better than we are.

It will be interesting to see what happens when all the realignment takes place. Where does the Big Ten go, to Detroit? What about the new "super" conf? Do they stay in Minny? Would people go if Minny wasn't there? Could the WCHA use Minneapolis, or would no one fill the place? Some of the natural places may not work out as well for them in another year. HEA will always have Boston, the others?

So we should quit trying to figure out some grand solution, that I don't think will ever happen. Pick a good central place like Albany, or a reasonable hockey town like Providence, and go and be happy. We will never be a grand hockey conference, and we should try and stop kicking ourselves because of it. If we stay two steps ahead of the AHA, we might find ourselves on par with some of the remodeled former big leagues, whatever they will call the old WCHA and CCHA. They may come down to our level.

I'm happy I knew what it was like to consistently compete with the best, but now I'm happy that we can be there sometimes. Just give me a reasonable place to go to the ECACs, and that's not AC.

[Aaron M. Griffin]

Where does the Big Ten go, to Detroit? What about the new "super" conf?

B1G Hockey will play its first tournament in Saint Paul, MN at the Xcel Energy Center. The B1G is looking for a rotation (sound familiar?) of venues to be fair to its geographically disparate teams. The envisioned rotation includes Saint Paul and Detroit. However, the Xcel Energy Center is the only confirmed venue so far.

[css228]

I'm surprised that nobody has really mentioned the Ivy League "factor".  We've already seen how the Ivy League rules have made our football and basketball teams nationally uncompetitive.  It's something we basically accept (although some of us don't like it).  

I think football and basketball basically cratered almost instantly because there were 2-300 schools that were competing for talent.  What I believe we're starting to see is that factor starting to come into play in hockey.  There are a lot more DI schools now than there were when Hockey East formed.  Hell, there are even more Hockey East Schools now than when it formed.  

I think those new schools are finally diluting the talent pool to a point where the Ivy League rules are making the whole conference suffer.  And I don't see name recognition or school location fixing it.  This is a downward spiral that is the result of withdrawing from the national "way things are done."  If you want to compete you don't hamstring yorurself.  

Maybe the new financial aid rules will help some, but I have my doubts.

The financial aid rules definitely help. I know from my time with CUTF/XC that if you recruit at a certain economic income level, you effectively get full and partial scholarships without any real limit. That brings in a lot of talent we used to be unable to get, and as a result the quality of Ivy Track and Field has dramatically risen the last 10 years or so. I also remember seeing an article on wrestling that insinuated the the same thing. The games limit really hurts our hockey team though. It creates no margin of error in terms of getting into NCAAs and it limits the amount of times our team can really seek out top notch competition in order to be ready for it come March. I have no doubt a program with Cornell's reputation could get more big games if it didn't have to schedule its NC schedule when many programs are starting to get into conference play.

[css228]

Thanks to scoop85, css228, bnr24, Ben, and jtn27 for your thoughtful replies.

I think back to the 2003 & 2005 teams (and even 1996 because it was a big renaissance of the program) and there were stretches where we just didn't feel like Cornell would lose as soon as they stepped on the ice each night.  When teams like that put it together and go on a run, there's a feeling around the Faithful (young and old) of "We will follow this team to the end of the earth, I don't care what it takes."  It's kind of infectious.  I hope it happens again and hits the students.

It absolutely could, but theres definitely a feeling I get that athletics lets the program try to sell itself a little too much. I just missed out on the last days of the line, but from what I hear, things like trying to score on Scrivens, or Schafer delivering food to students who camped out made getting hockey tickets the thing to do, even more so that it currently is. One of my good friends is the Blue Devil at Duke, but even he camped out for Carolina tickets (despite the obvious fact he didn't need to) because that's just what you do at Duke. As much as I shudder to think about the Faithful like their inferior comparison at Duke, I think that the administration goes out of their way to cultivate that sense of belonging in the fan base. We used to do that very well, and we are still pretty good at it. But if you want people to travel with the team, you have to make the program more accessible (i.e. make tickets cheaper) and go out of your way to build a buzz around the program (i.e. bring back the line). Those two little things, along with moving back to 7:30 starts (did you see the pre-game attendance against Dartmouth?) would go a long way in re-energizing the fan base,

[billhoward]

Duke basketball isn't selling out home games. The Cameron Crazies are bemoaning how it's not like old times. Duke wins the NCAA championship and attendance falls.

http://dukechronicle.com/article/low-attendance-forces-duke-athletics-sell-student-seats

Once regularly an asylum for 1,200 Crazies, Section 17 at Cameron Indoor Stadium now rarely plays host to a student-only crowd. Student attendance at men's basketball games has fallen consistently over the last five years, even dropping after Duke won its fourth national championship in 2010. This season, approximately 650 undergraduates have attended each game, 150 fewer than during the 2008-09 season. As a result, Duke Athletics has begun to sell an increasing number of general admission tickets in the student section on a regular basis.
 
[Almost as cold as waiting outside Lynah? -ed] "It does take a lot to go to K-Ville and wait outside, sometimes in the cold and in the rain, and then go into Cameron where you have to stand and jump up and down," co-head line monitor Ellie Garrett said. "Students need to realize that going to Cameron is... an awesome experience."
 
This lack of undergraduate interest has led Duke Athletics to sell about 300 tickets per game this season, priced at $65. ...
 
When the Blue Devils played Wake Forest last week, 400 tickets were made available to Iron Dukes because of concerns over the game's competition with fraternity and sorority rush ... Still, Section 17 was still under capacity at tip-off, leading head coach Mike Krzyzewski to gesticulate across the court during play, encouraging the fans to get louder. ...

[Give Duke credit for this] "Every other school in the country is playing canned music during timeouts, doing cheesy promotions," Forman said. "We try to stay away from that."

[adamw]

So we should quit trying to figure out some grand solution, that I don't think will ever happen. Pick a good central place like Albany, or a reasonable hockey town like Providence, and go and be happy. We will never be a grand hockey conference, and we should try and stop kicking ourselves because of it. If we stay two steps ahead of the AHA, we might find ourselves on par with some of the remodeled former big leagues, whatever they will call the old WCHA and CCHA. They may come down to our level.

I'm happy I knew what it was like to consistently compete with the best, but now I'm happy that we can be there sometimes. Just give me a reasonable place to go to the ECACs, and that's not AC.

I know it's not a central location, per se ... but this was my main argument in favor of Lake Placid, and I wrote about it a lot when they moved to Albany. And JTW alluded to this as well, that Lake Placid may be the only actual "destination" that has any marketability.

If you're not going to be the best, and you're not going to compete in a major city - then why not take advantage of the one unique thing you do have at your disposal?  Lake Placid gave the ECAC an identity that was unique and has a very favorable emotional component to any hockey fan. The people in Lake Placid made it an "Event." It's a special place.

AC is 1 hr. 20 minutes from my house - and LP is 6 hrs. on a good day (i.e. not snowing) ... yet I'd still be very in favor of Lake Placid any day of the week over anywhere else.

Alas, it will never happen so long as there are coaches in the league who don't want to play on the big ice surface. I understand their concern with it, but they are also the ones to complain about the league's marketability issues.

[releck97]

Another point to remember: the AHA does not hold a consolation game, so I'd bet that most of the 2,443 in Rochester were actually inside the BCA for the final.

Another thing that hurt the AHA attendance was that the RIT women were playing for the NCAA DIII Championship at the exact same time at RIT as the AF - RIT game at the BCA. So I know that pulled from the attendance the AHA game.

Not to mention that Air Force, being halfway across the country, wasn't likely to have much of a showing there.

I went to the game because my sister's nephew plays for AF.  It was decidedly a RIT crowd...surprise, surprise, but the AF folks held their own, especially after they went up 2-0.
Now, here's something amazing:  An AF Academy alum (who lives in Rochester) comps everyone who signs up in advance for a ticket.  The guest list was pretty impressive!

[Larry72]

Several of us were discussing the venue issue while in AC this past weekend.  

The closest the ECAC has ever come to having a real "event" location was the old Boston Garden.  It was a wonderful venue that was filled for nearly every ECAC championship I ever attended as a CU fan.  Also, Boston is a great hockey town, a nice city to visit, not too expensive for current students and young alumns and has a reasonable contingent of alumni who will turn out for their teams.  There were fabulous games there in the 60s, 70s and a bit beyond.  Alas the old Boston Garden is a memory.  I don't think that the "new" Garden would work as well, but might be worth a try.

The second closest to an "event" location was Lake Placid.  For those of us who experienced Cornell-Clarkson in 1970 in the old rink for the NCAA championship and/or the USA gold medal run in 1980, this is a special place.  The town is still quaint, fun, and not too expensive. Yes, it's a drive for most, but not truly terrible.  However, the biggest problem with it is the Olympic ice sheet.  I believe that if it was 200x85, the ECAC could seriously consider it.

As several have mentioned, there are plenty of rinks with 7000+ seating capacity or more within the ECAC.  Frankly, for the most part, it doesn't matter where the ECAC plays within the general confines of the center of the ECAC.  Atlantic City just isn't the solution.  It's not a hockey town.  It's generally too expensive for students and too far away for just about everyone! The bottom line, there is no draw to the place.  

IMO, the ECAC needs to find a decent rink (as I and others have mentioned, there are several), market the heck out of it, put some packages together for participating schools (including transportation, several hotels at different price points, tickets, etc) and have a decent TV package for those who can't/won't make the trip.  Stick with it for a few years, tweak the packages each year, and build it into something that fans will look forward to.  AC is obviously not "it".  Albany could be, but it too needs better packaging to be successful. Both Bridgeport at Worcester are also possibilities. Both cities are closer to most ECAC teams than AC.  Each has some college hockey connections, aren't too expense, and can generally be driven to.

My $.02

[Jim Hyla]

You might want to read Ken Schott's post-mortem on AC. A few quotes:

There were 4,131 fans there? Really?

Move the tournament
This was my first experience covering the tournament in Atlantic City. And, honestly, I didn't like it.

The games were poorly attended. There were allegedly 3,462 fans in Boardwalk Hall for Friday's two games, and 4,131 fans for Saturday's contests. Were those numbers chosen from the New Jersey Pick-4 Lottery?

There was no atmosphere in the building. At one point during the championship game, it was so quiet that I thought I was in a library and not a hockey game.

If there is a way the league can buy out the final year of its deal with Atlantic City, do it. It would save the ECACH another possible embarrassment next year.

[css228]

Duke basketball isn't selling out home games. The Cameron Crazies are bemoaning how it's not like old times. Duke wins the NCAA championship and attendance falls.

http://dukechronicle.com/article/low-attendance-forces-duke-athletics-sell-student-seats

Once regularly an asylum for 1,200 Crazies, Section 17 at Cameron Indoor Stadium now rarely plays host to a student-only crowd. Student attendance at men's basketball games has fallen consistently over the last five years, even dropping after Duke won its fourth national championship in 2010. This season, approximately 650 undergraduates have attended each game, 150 fewer than during the 2008-09 season. As a result, Duke Athletics has begun to sell an increasing number of general admission tickets in the student section on a regular basis.
 
[Almost as cold as waiting outside Lynah? -ed] "It does take a lot to go to K-Ville and wait outside, sometimes in the cold and in the rain, and then go into Cameron where you have to stand and jump up and down," co-head line monitor Ellie Garrett said. "Students need to realize that going to Cameron is... an awesome experience."
 
This lack of undergraduate interest has led Duke Athletics to sell about 300 tickets per game this season, priced at $65. ...
 
When the Blue Devils played Wake Forest last week, 400 tickets were made available to Iron Dukes because of concerns over the game's competition with fraternity and sorority rush ... Still, Section 17 was still under capacity at tip-off, leading head coach Mike Krzyzewski to gesticulate across the court during play, encouraging the fans to get louder. ...

[Give Duke credit for this] "Every other school in the country is playing canned music during timeouts, doing cheesy promotions," Forman said. "We try to stay away from that."

That is definitely true. I don't think you need to do cheesy promotions, but how would bringing back a beloved tradition hurt?