Cornell 1 RPI 2 (ot)

[Trotsky]

And that is part of why we don't have much respect for Cleary, and part of the reason why we don't have much respect for the cup named after him.

I recall the incident, but honestly I doubt that has carried through to today's staff, and of course to today's players Bill Cleary might as well have skated with Hobey Baker.

Considering what a great ambassador for American, college and in particular ECAC hockey Cleary has been, I think he deserves the kind of respect the hockey community has for another gritty and sometimes divisive competitor who went on to be a high profile spokesmen for the sport, Laing Kennedy.

[Aaron M. Griffin]

Considering throughout this thread it has seemed as though some lament not winning the Cleary Cup, I was wondering if someone can explain the events around and background of the event described in the tweet from Saturday evening. It's an occurrence with which I am not familiar from the annals of Cornell history and it just precedes my time on the Hill. I cannot find anything written about it with a quick Google search either.

Last time Cornell got the Cleary, they left it on the ice an wouldn't touch it. No banner for RS "Champs" and remember who it's named for.

I know that it's named for former Harvard coach, Bill Cleary, but was curious if there was more history/background about how the 2005 team acted. Is this what all Cornell teams have done? Just trying to add to my Cornell hockey history knowledge.

In addition to what previous repliers have said about mirroring the tradition farther up the hockey food chain, the Cornell program has a history with Bill Cleary that is somewhat different from the classy, honorable image Harvard presents of him and that the ECACHL "honored" by naming the cup after him.

Cleary and his Harvard team won the 1989 Frozen Four, and it wasn't even that improbable a victory - they had a lot of great players on that team, including Hobey Baker winner Lane McDonald, and they had won the ECAC tournament in 1987 (though not in 1988 or 1989).  A number of very strong players returned for the 1989-1990 season, and expectations were high for at least a repeat appearance in the NCAAs, and it was all the more meaningful because everyone knew it would be Cleary's final season at the helm before he stepped into an administrative position as Harvard's Athletics Director.  Somewhere along the way, the wheels came off a bit, and they finished 6th in the ECAC at 12-9-1, and only 13-14-1 overall.

At the time, we were in the 10-team playoff structure, where 7 hosted 10 and 8 hosted 9 for the first round, and the top 6 got a bye, so with Cornell's #3 finish, we would host Harvard after the bye week no matter what happened in the first round.

Cornell's 1990 team included some pretty serious firepower themselves, including future NHLers Kent Manderville, Corrie D'Alessio, Dan Ratushny, and Ryan Hughes (though the latter three only had a cup of coffee in the NHL), plus the infamous scoring machines on Hughes's line, Trent Andison and Doug Derraugh.  When Harvard arrived at Lynah, Cornell pretty much shut them down, sweeping the "quintafinals" 6-2 and 4-2.  Cleary's coaching career was over, and it didn't end prettily.

If I recall correctly - and it's entirely possible that I don't, but this is how I remember it - after the second game, despite giving Cornell coach Brian McCutcheon a hug, Cleary directed his players to skate off the ice without shaking the Cornell players' hands.

And that is part of why we don't have much respect for Cleary, and part of the reason why we don't have much respect for the cup named after him.

Thanks for the historical scope. Also, I could not find anything about why there is a specific level of animosity between the Lynah Faithful and Cleary other than the typical Cornell-Harvard rivalry, thank you for providing that context. I agree that it is reason enough for the team not to act Union-like when it wins the Cleary (admittedly, Union has no reason to have any reservations other than abstract values of sportsmanship because they were not slighted historically by Cleary and his Harvard team). I hope that future Cornell teams when they win the regular season remember how Cleary acted. It is truly something that should be added to the institutional memory of Cornell hockey both within the the team and the Faithful.

Why did the league name neither trophy after Ned Harkness? I know that Union is a recent addition, but Harkness is the common thread through the two historically most successful programs on the national stage. Harkness' legacy is the common connection between Cornell and RPI, with their history and current levels of competitiveness, and Union, with its status as a respectable program.

[Beeeej]

And that is part of why we don't have much respect for Cleary, and part of the reason why we don't have much respect for the cup named after him.

I recall the incident, but honestly I doubt that has carried through to today's staff, and of course to today's players Bill Cleary might as well have skated with Hobey Baker.

Considering what a great ambassador for American, college and in particular ECAC hockey Cleary has been, I think he deserves the kind of respect the hockey community has for another gritty and sometimes divisive competitor who went on to be a high profile spokesmen for the sport, Laing Kennedy.

I realize that I should have said "I" instead of "we," though I know that at least a few other members of this board feel the same way.  But I also have doubts about your statement concerning today's staff, particularly since Schafer, the leader of the staff, once shot a puck at Cleary during a game where Harvard blew us out 11-3 (in Nieuwendyk's last season, no less); and since Schafer was an Assistant Coach at Cornell when we swept Harvard in 1990.  It's also not beyond imagination that he would pass on Cleary stories to his players.

Anyway, I'm just answering a question about a cup that a large number of us don't really care about.

[css228]

It wouldnt be that surprising a tradition. many teams in the NHL believe in the superstition of not touching the Campbell Bowl or the Prince of Wales Trophy, so I wouldn't be surprised that tradition had moved its way down the chain. After all if your expectations are so low that winning a Cleary is the be all and end all of a successful season, you're not really that great a program (Here's lookin' at you Union). I would have loved to have that 1 seed, but all will be forgiven if we win the ECAC Title and a game or two in the NCAA's.

This is probably (1)blasphemous and (2)the non-American sports fan in me, but I usually value regular season success above tournament success. A team that plays the best over twenty-two games is probably better than one who wins four (or six) games in the playoffs. The larger sample size reduces the importance of bad calls, weird bounces, and balances out home advantage. (This obviously doesn't work as well with an unbalanced schedule.)

I agree that regular season success is usually a better indicator of who the best team is, but ultimately, its all about who's the last one standing. My favorite team won 102 games last season, was probably the best team in its franchises history, and provided me with countless hours of entertainment last summer. But they didn't win it all and that stung a little. I will never say the '08 team was better than the '11 team, but at the same time, I'll always have more fond memories of the '08 team because that's the team that won it all. At the same time '10 may be my favorite season despite not winning it all because well post-season no-hitters and regular season perfect games are awesome.

[Beeeej]

Why did the league name neither trophy after Ned Harkness? I know that Union is a recent addition, but Harkness is the common thread through the two historically most successful programs on the national stage. Harkness' legacy is the common connection between Cornell and RPI, with their history and current levels of competitiveness, and Union, with its status as a respectable program.

I can't answer that question with any certainty, but it's probably worth knowing that almost everybody besides RPI resented Ned for recruiting so many Canadian players at a time when American college hockey was still largely populated with Americans (it was much more common by the time he arrived at Cornell, but still stirred the pot a bit).  And although he brought RPI to a national title, I think they had some lingering resentment about his departure for Cornell.

[Aaron M. Griffin]

It wouldnt be that surprising a tradition. many teams in the NHL believe in the superstition of not touching the Campbell Bowl or the Prince of Wales Trophy, so I wouldn't be surprised that tradition had moved its way down the chain. After all if your expectations are so low that winning a Cleary is the be all and end all of a successful season, you're not really that great a program (Here's lookin' at you Union). I would have loved to have that 1 seed, but all will be forgiven if we win the ECAC Title and a game or two in the NCAA's.

I was thinking that it was probably in the line of tradition surrounding the Prince of Wales Trophy. Actually, I was probably hoping in some ways that that is what Cornell has done and why it has done it. Was hoping that someone familiar with the trophy tradition would back my and your thoughts up about it.

And to go up to date, Ken Schott's blog on "Union will be presented Cleary Cup Tuesday night at Bombers Burrito Bar".

If anyone has the correct info on our team not touching the cup, I'd like to email it to him.

I know we have been speculating about if there is a superstition around winning the Cleary Cup and why one would not touch it. So, while I awaited comments regarding the Cornell-specific reasons for not acting Union-like upon winning it, I crunched the numbers to see if history warranted the supposition of a curse. Admittedly, the Cleary Cup has been awarded only since 2001 so there is a very small sample size. However, the following is the results of my analysis:

73% of the time the winner of the Cleary Cup loses the Whitelaw Cup

36% of the time the winner of the Cleary Cup makes the ECAC Championship Final

27% of the time winner of the Cleary Cup is eliminated in the ECAC Championship Semifinal

36% of the time the winner of the Cleary Cup is eliminated in ECAC Tournament Quarterfinal

Yale, in 2009, and Cornell, in both 2003 and 2005, are the only teams to have won both the Whitelaw Cup and the Cleary Cup since awarding of the Cleary Cup began in 2001.

[Aaron M. Griffin]

Why did the league name neither trophy after Ned Harkness? I know that Union is a recent addition, but Harkness is the common thread through the two historically most successful programs on the national stage. Harkness' legacy is the common connection between Cornell and RPI, with their history and current levels of competitiveness, and Union, with its status as a respectable program.

I can't answer that question with any certainty, but it's probably worth knowing that almost everybody besides RPI resented Ned for recruiting so many Canadian players at a time when American college hockey was still largely populated with Americans (it was much more common by the time he arrived at Cornell, but still stirred the pot a bit).  And although he brought RPI to a national title, I think they had some lingering resentment about his departure for Cornell.

I overlooked that. It is somewhat difficult with how Cornell has such a tradition of relying upon talent from Canada (pioneered by Harkness) to remember that fact. Often, I pay no attention to our players's nation of origin (as a born Upstater, I do take special notice of the players from my region of New York State). It seems like flagrant disrespect that no accolade in our conference is named for the college hockey coach who owns still the best collegiate win percentage of any coach and who coached most of his collegiate career in the ECAC.

[CowbellGuy]

This is also just speculation, but I had the impression that it wasn't about superstition as much as it was about refusing to impart any importance to it. Kind of a "we haven't accomplished anything yet" thing.

[Beeeej]

I overlooked that. It is somewhat difficult with how Cornell has such a tradition of relying upon talent from Canada (pioneered by Harkness) to remember that fact. Often, I pay no attention to our players's nation of origin (as a born Upstater, I do take special notice of the players from my region of New York State). It seems like flagrant disrespect that no accolade in our conference is named for the college hockey coach who owns still the best collegiate win percentage of any coach and who coached most of his collegiate career in the ECAC.

It's also seriously contradicted by how his players felt and feel about him; I've never heard of any college hockey player whom Ned coached disliking him, and many of them felt like he was their second father.  When Ned left Union College after the first six games of the 1977-78 season amid rumors that he had violated recruiting rules or pressured the college to compromise their admissions standards, the entire varsity team stepped down and refused to play for the remainder of the season.  (JV and intramural players were cobbled together to form a varsity, and lost every remaining game, the first one by the score of 19-1.)

[billhoward]

I know we have been speculating about if there is a superstition around winning the Cleary Cup and why one would not touch it. So, while I awaited comments regarding the Cornell-specific reasons for not acting Union-like upon winning it, I crunched the numbers to see if history warranted the supposition of a curse. Admittedly, the Cleary Cup has been awarded only since 2001 so there is a very small sample size. However, the following is the results of my analysis:

73% of the time the winner of the Cleary Cup loses the Whitelaw Cup

36% of the time the winner of the Cleary Cup makes the ECAC Championship Final

27% of the time winner of the Cleary Cup is eliminated in the ECAC Championship Semifinal

36% of the time the winner of the Cleary Cup is eliminated in ECAC Tournament Quarterfinal

Yale, in 2009, and Cornell, in both 2003 and 2005, are the only teams to have won both the Whitelaw Cup and the Cleary Cup since awarding of the Cleary Cup began in 2001.

But still slightly better than the odds of the second-, third-, or fourth-place teams winning the Whitelaw Cup as the ECAC tourament champion? The only immutable fact: Every year since 2001, Harvard ______.

I would happily continue my undergradute years if Cornell offered a course in the Statistics of Sport (and Reflections on the Real World). Maybe offered online via eLynah and we hired the Redcast Guy to do the video? Just tell the prof not to walk too quickly toward either end of the chalkboard.

[Trotsky]

I realize that I should have said "I" instead of "we," though I know that at least a few other members of this board feel the same way.  But I also have doubts about your statement concerning today's staff, particularly since Schafer, the leader of the staff, once shot a puck at Cleary during a game where Harvard blew us out 11-3 (in Nieuwendyk's last season, no less)

For shame, Beeeej!  That was during 1985-86, Joe's second-to-last season.

[Ben]

The only immutable fact: Every year since the beginning of the universe, Harvard _ sucks _.

Fixed & completed.

[cbuckser]

I overlooked that. It is somewhat difficult with how Cornell has such a tradition of relying upon talent from Canada (pioneered by Harkness) to remember that fact. Often, I pay no attention to our players's nation of origin (as a born Upstater, I do take special notice of the players from my region of New York State). It seems like flagrant disrespect that no accolade in our conference is named for the college hockey coach who owns still the best collegiate win percentage of any coach and who coached most of his collegiate career in the ECAC.

It's also seriously contradicted by how his players felt and feel about him; I've never heard of any college hockey player whom Ned coached disliking him, and many of them felt like he was their second father.  When Ned left Union College after the first six games of the 1977-78 season amid rumors that he had violated recruiting rules or pressured the college to compromise their admissions standards, the entire varsity team stepped down and refused to play for the remainder of the season.  (JV and intramural players were cobbled together to form a varsity, and lost every remaining game, the first one by the score of 19-1.)

For one year when I was living in Princeton, my primary care physician was one of those Union fill-ins who got their asses handed to them every game.  He didn't share great stories, but he had memories of the camaraderie and the blowouts.

[Beeeej]

I realize that I should have said "I" instead of "we," though I know that at least a few other members of this board feel the same way.  But I also have doubts about your statement concerning today's staff, particularly since Schafer, the leader of the staff, once shot a puck at Cleary during a game where Harvard blew us out 11-3 (in Nieuwendyk's last season, no less)

For shame, Beeeej!  That was during 1985-86, Joe's second-to-last season.

Of course it was, and I should know that, having worked with Joe's graduating class, 1988, while I was on Cornell's staff, and remembering that he left before his senior year.  For some reason I had it in my head that he left in 1986 right after Cornell won the ECAC tournament and then lost to Denver by splitting one of those stupid two-game "total goals" series.

It's also worth mentioning in the context of this thread that Harvard lost the national championship game by one goal in 1986.

[Trotsky]

in 1986 right after Cornell won the ECAC tournament and then lost to Denver by splitting one of those stupid two-game "total goals" series.

It's also worth mentioning in the context of this thread that Harvard lost the national championship game by one goal in 1986.

Also a good place to mention that Cornell was leading Denver, the #1 team in the country, in total goals midway through the second game, but surrendered two goals to lose the series.  Had Cornell advanced they would have played Harvard in the 1986 NCAA SF in Providence.