Cornell 4 - SLU 3 (ot)

[Al DeFlorio]

coach sat him and told the Pbox someone else was sitting his penalty.. he did something stupid and he knows it and the coach made a point that the whole team will think about next time..

From Schafer's email sent out today:

"Late in the second period, we received a 5-minute boarding call that was a stupid penalty by one of our players who I sat for the rest of the game."

[Swampy]

Wouldn't Nicholls have to have been in the box for the first 2:03 of the third?

Or somebody sat for him.

What I'm saying is, that's the critical test (not whether he was in the box at the end of the second).

Ahh.  Gotcha.  Boy I'm being dense today.

Would I be tempting the wrath of this board by saying I don't remember seeing him in the box and I think somebody sat for him?  ::deadhorse::

I'm almost sure DeSwart sat for him at the beginning of the third. Not to start this all over again, but Prof Boyer, who sits 2 rows in front of me, asked me why DeSwart was in the box at the start of the third. So I think that solves the puzzle: 5 min major, no DQ, coach sat him out, and DeSwart got to sit in the box again.

It hadn't occurred to me that the rules would allow a coach to do that.  If a player gets injured, I'm sure there must be a provision to have someone else sit his releasable penalty, but I guess there must be something in the rules that allows the penalized team to remove a player from the game and replace him in the penalty box...

I suppose the NCAA feels this is more humane than having the coach pull a Bobby Knight so the player would qualify as having an injury. ::smashfreak::

[WillCMJr]

But I'm with Jeff - I think of majors as "5 and a game" when I watch college hockey. Interesting that Nicholls didn't get a misconduct for this one.

I'm not sure if this was an old rule, or where you two get that thinking from, but it's just not accurate.  There are both 5 and 10 minute majors, without automatic game disqualifications.  We've had each this year as a matter-of-fact.

[David Harding]

But I'm with Jeff - I think of majors as "5 and a game" when I watch college hockey. Interesting that Nicholls didn't get a misconduct for this one.

I'm not sure if this was an old rule, or where you two get that thinking from, but it's just not accurate.  There are both 5 and 10 minute majors, without automatic game disqualifications.  We've had each this year as a matter-of-fact.

That's not quite right.  There is only one kind of major penalty, the five-minute kind.  

There are two kinds of misconduct penalties, either ten-minute or game.  In both cases the player is taken out of action for the specified time, but the team does not play short-handed.  (It's only the game misconduct penalties, not the 10-minute ones, that are tallied up and lead to missing games after the accumulation of three in a season.)  Often the misconduct penalty comes on top of a minor or major penalty, in which case the player serves both (misconduct second), with the team shorthanded during the minor or major.  

A disqualification penalty kicks you out for the rest of the game and the next (or more) and you get a major, too, so it's sort of "a game and 5" (as opposed to "5 and a game" ).  

The penalty that is getting a lot of attention lately is hitting from behind into the boards.  That one specifically gets you both a major and either a game misconduct or a disqualification at the discretion of the referee.  It's the same with with butt-ending or with hitting the head or neck on purpose.  There are other combinations, such as if a player from the bench interferes with a breakaway, it's a minor and a misconduct.  Same with breaking your stick so it cannot be measured to see whether it is illegal.  

In the case of Nicholls being benched, there isn't any explicit provision in the rules, but the procedure that was followed was what is laid out for an injured player who receives a major (or minor) penalty.

[Tom Lento]

But I'm with Jeff - I think of majors as "5 and a game" when I watch college hockey. Interesting that Nicholls didn't get a misconduct for this one.

I'm not sure if this was an old rule, or where you two get that thinking from, but it's just not accurate.  There are both 5 and 10 minute majors, without automatic game disqualifications.  We've had each this year as a matter-of-fact.

That's not quite right.  There is only one kind of major penalty, the five-minute kind.  

There are two kinds of misconduct penalties, either ten-minute or game.  In both cases the player is taken out of action for the specified time, but the team does not play short-handed.  (It's only the game misconduct penalties, not the 10-minute ones, that are tallied up and lead to missing games after the accumulation of three in a season.)  Often the misconduct penalty comes on top of a minor or major penalty, in which case the player serves both (misconduct second), with the team shorthanded during the minor or major.  

A disqualification penalty kicks you out for the rest of the game and the next (or more) and you get a major, too, so it's sort of "a game and 5" (as opposed to "5 and a game" ).  

The penalty that is getting a lot of attention lately is hitting from behind into the boards.  That one specifically gets you both a major and either a game misconduct or a disqualification at the discretion of the referee.  It's the same with with butt-ending or with hitting the head or neck on purpose.  There are other combinations, such as if a player from the bench interferes with a breakaway, it's a minor and a misconduct.  Same with breaking your stick so it cannot be measured to see whether it is illegal.  

In the case of Nicholls being benched, there isn't any explicit provision in the rules, but the procedure that was followed was what is laid out for an injured player who receives a major (or minor) penalty.

What David said. The thinking comes from the way major penalties are applied in practice - they almost always include a game misconduct, at least as far as I can remember. I think this is probably due to the emphasis on hitting from behind into the boards that David mentions - that does require a game misconduct (or DQ at the discretion of the referee). I guess another way to put it is 5 minute majors tend to be called for flagrant infractions (hitting from behind into the boards, butt-ending, intentional contact to the head or fighting) which come with a mandatory game misconduct or dq in the NCAA.

Boarding, charging, elbowing, and cross checking are some of the penalties that can go for majors with optional game misconducts, but like I said I can't think of any other cases where a major was called and the misconduct was not assessed. Doesn't mean it hasn't happened, and it doesn't even mean I've never seen one before last weekend, but I can't think of an example from college hockey.

[WillCMJr]

That's not quite right.  There is only one kind of major penalty, the five-minute kind.  

You're right David, thanks for the correction, sorry for the mistype.  Typed it quickly, was just trying to point out there are 5 and 10 minute penalties without a game disqual.

[tretiak]

Doesn't mean it hasn't happened, and it doesn't even mean I've never seen one before last weekend, but I can't think of an example from college hockey.

Sawada got a 5 minute boarding penalty without a game misconduct in the second game of the ECAC QFs against Quinnipiac on March 10, 2007. Couldn't find a box score. Hopefully someone else can.

[ACM]

Doesn't mean it hasn't happened, and it doesn't even mean I've never seen one before last weekend, but I can't think of an example from college hockey.

Sawada got a 5 minute boarding penalty without a game misconduct in the second game of the ECAC QFs against Quinnipiac on March 10, 2007. Couldn't find a box score. Hopefully someone else can.

Collegehockeystats.net

[Trotsky]

I guess another way to put it is 5 minute majors tend to be called for flagrant infractions (hitting from behind into the boards, butt-ending, intentional contact to the head or fighting) which come with a mandatory game misconduct or dq in the NCAA.

I don't know if it has any basis in the rules, but I have heard several broadcasters describe the difference between the 2- and 5-minute versions of the same penalty as "intent to injure."  But radio guys have been known to spontaneously invent rules, players, historical events, or entire countries.

[Jim Hyla]

Joe Devin makes ECAC Player of the Week.

[Jeff Hopkins '82]

I guess another way to put it is 5 minute majors tend to be called for flagrant infractions (hitting from behind into the boards, butt-ending, intentional contact to the head or fighting) which come with a mandatory game misconduct or dq in the NCAA.

I don't know if it has any basis in the rules, but I have heard several broadcasters describe the difference between the 2- and 5-minute versions of the same penalty as "intent to injure."  But radio guys have been known to spontaneously invent rules, players, historical events, or entire countries.

Well, I'd have to hope there's never truly an intent to injure.  If there's a distinction, it would be between "I'm gonna pound the shit out of that guy" and "Oh shit. I'm going to hit that guy the wrong way."  

In reality I suspect that it simply comes down to the league deciding that they're going to crack down on certain penalties, and making them 5:00 as a major discouragement with no referee discretion.

[David Harding]

I guess another way to put it is 5 minute majors tend to be called for flagrant infractions (hitting from behind into the boards, butt-ending, intentional contact to the head or fighting) which come with a mandatory game misconduct or dq in the NCAA.

I don't know if it has any basis in the rules, but I have heard several broadcasters describe the difference between the 2- and 5-minute versions of the same penalty as "intent to injure."  But radio guys have been known to spontaneously invent rules, players, historical events, or entire countries.

Well, I'd have to hope there's never truly an intent to injure.  If there's a distinction, it would be between "I'm gonna pound the shit out of that guy" and "Oh shit. I'm going to hit that guy the wrong way."  

In reality I suspect that it simply comes down to the league deciding that they're going to crack down on certain penalties, and making them 5:00 as a major discouragement with no referee discretion.

In the case of boarding, the rule book says

PENALTY-Minor or major at the discretion of the referee, based on the degree of violence of the impact with the boards.  A game misconduct may be assessed at the discretion of the referee.

For all the rest where there is an option, the rules do not specify the basis for the discretion.  However, in Part II of the book, Interpretations, there are "approved rulings" on several infractions, such as elbowing:  

A minor penalty should be assessed in most situations.  When the elbow is used in a flagrant or violent manner, a major penalty should be assessed.  Whenever injury results from fouling an opponent with an elbow, a disqualification penalty must be served.

[Tom Lento]

Doesn't mean it hasn't happened, and it doesn't even mean I've never seen one before last weekend, but I can't think of an example from college hockey.

Sawada got a 5 minute boarding penalty without a game misconduct in the second game of the ECAC QFs against Quinnipiac on March 10, 2007. Couldn't find a box score. Hopefully someone else can.

Collegehockeystats.net

And there's an example from close to home.

Sadly, I did not see that game, but I hardly expect you all to go digging through every box score from the last 15-ish years to find one that I've actually witnessed.

It would be interesting to know what % of major penalties come without misconducts, but again - I don't care enough to do it and I don't expect anybody else to take the trouble.