Spitzer

[mnagowski]

[quote krose]Not going to speak for metaezra, but IMO for reasons of both budget and general legislative behavior, upstate NY would be a wonderful place to live if Westchester-and-south were its own state.  It would be mostly like a bigger Vermont.[/quote]

I'm not certain if Vermont would be the best analogy, as Buffalo, Rochester, Syracuse, etc. are all pretty urban areas with a lot of problems. Wisconsin may be a more apt comparison. Certainly the swath from Ithaca up to Albany and the Adirondacks would feel a lot like Vermont.

And to Beeeej's point, there certainly is a net flow of dollars from Downstate to Upstate, but a lot of those dollars are used to support pretty bloated government programs that Downstate may demand, but Upstate may well be able to do without. Then there's the fact that a lot of Upstate's resources (cheap hydro energy, fresh water, etc.) end up getting used by Downstate. Plus, Upstate would probably end up receiving a lot more federal money as a separate state.

I tend to be pretty liberal, and I'm certainly not a libertarian, but when it comes to New York State politics, it's pretty clear that a hatchet job needs to be done. Spitzer may have been the best chance for something going down, but I suppose he went down on somebody else instead...

Here's a quick synopsis of the problem:

http://www.bcnys.org/whatsnew/2004/0816upstate.htm

[RichH]

[quote metaezra]And to Beeeej's point, there certainly is a net flow of dollars from Downstate to Upstate, but a lot of those dollars are used to support pretty bloated government programs that Downstate may demand, but Upstate may well be able to do without. Then there's the fact that a lot of Upstate's resources (cheap hydro energy, fresh water, etc.) end up getting used by Downstate. Plus, Upstate would probably end up receiving a lot more federal money as a separate state. [/quote]

That's really a great summary of the difference of the upsate/downstate mindsets metaezra.  Upstaters see it: 'we have to pay this huge tax rate and see very little return for it." as certain areas keep getting more and more depressed.  Their perception is that much of their money is being gobbled up by the "big, bad city" and the growth around it.  Downstaters see it: "OUR money generated by our robust economy is being used to subsudize the poor dirt farmers upstate."  Of course, to many in NYC, "upstate" means White Plains, and there might be some land past that or something.

Every few years, some state assemblyman introduces a secession bill for "West New York" that never leaves the floor, but may win a few votes back home when it makes the local news.  That sort of thing is also always there for California & Illinois and I'm sure a few other states.  TX, VA, SC are some guesses.

Full disclosure, I've lived much of my life in the Southern Tier near the PA border, but most of my family is from the NYC area.  I'm a huge advocate for upstate NY, yet have grown to love everything NYC and Eastern LI have to offer.  I hated Hillary carpetbagging into NY for senatorial election convenience, however since she's taken in office has done a wonderful job paying attention to upstate needs.

Now, I live in central CT, and I'm struggling to comprehend the obsessive provincial compulsion of many locals to associate with the concept of "New England" here.  Not only is this place nothing like VT, NH, and Maine, but most absolutely laugh at the idea that Central NYS could have things like fall foliage, maple syrup, outdoor activities (both lake and mountain-based), and harsher winter weather.  For some, there might as well be a wall built at the NY-CT border, even though the Hudson Valley is closer than Boston.

[Rosey]

[quote RichH]yet have grown to love everything NYC and Eastern LI have to offer.[/quote]
Let me make it clear that I love NYC as well.  But I don't see why NYC legislative priorities should apply to rural voters in upstate NY.  I strongly suspect separating NY into two states divided at the Putnam/Westchester line would dramatically improve the overall happiness of each group.

FWIW, I grew up in southern Dutchess County, so I am not speaking out of my ass... on this topic, at least. ;-)

Kyle

[Jim Hyla]

[quote Beeeej] it's important also to remember that downstate to a significant extent pays for upstate.[/quote]

I assume you mean that there is a net flow of tax dollars from NYC to upstate. While that has been true with the Wall Street boom, that has not always been true. You don't have to back too far to remember when upstate had to bail out a bankrupt NYC. These things change over time, and I for one would not want to take too strong a stand one way or another.

[mnagowski]

[quote Jim Hyla]It has been true with the Wall Street boom, that has not always been true. You don't have to back too far to remember when upstate had to bail out a bankrupt NYC. These things change over time, and I for one would not want to take too strong a stand one way or another.[/quote]

And hey, maybe with the way the dollar is falling, manufacturing is restarting, and the way Wall Street is imploding, maybe Upstate will arise again.

I'll also say this to anybody living in Phoenix or Texas or Georgia -- don't come begging to us when you run out of fresh water.

[Rosey]

[quote metaezra]I'll also say this to anybody living in Phoenix or Texas or Georgia -- don't come begging to us when you run out of fresh water.[/quote]
This is an interesting point.  It will become substantially more expensive to live in arid climates as the population grows.  The good news is that people in those areas are likely to rediscover cisterns and water reclamation, to mitigate the rather outrageous prices they are likely to pay for fresh water.  Nonetheless, it will be interesting to watch.

Kyle

[Liz '05]

[quote RichH]
Now, I live in central CT, and I'm struggling to comprehend the obsessive provincial compulsion of many locals to associate with the concept of "New England" here.  Not only is this place nothing like VT, NH, and Maine, but most absolutely laugh at the idea that Central NYS could have things like fall foliage, maple syrup, outdoor activities (both lake and mountain-based), and harsher winter weather.  For some, there might as well be a wall built at the NY-CT border, even though the Hudson Valley is closer than Boston.[/quote]

I'm from Connecticut!  And yes, it's not like VT, NH, and Maine, but it is like Southern New England - Rhode Island, Massachusetts, and itself.  There are also a LOT of people that regularly travel into Northern New England, but not so much outside the region, to ski, to visit family, to go to summer camps, or to summer houses.  I don't know many people that cross the border to do that, unless they were originally from outside New England.  And except for the western third of CT, we pretty much all like the Boston teams (except for hockey, where there are still a lot of Whalers fans who've scattered their allegiances).  We're a region for a reason.

But you're right - we draw a line at the NY border and pretending that the rest of the United States can't compare is silly.

Now, back to the discussion of Eliot Spitzer and his hooker

[Chris '03]

[quote Liz '05]  We're a region for a reason.
[/quote]

What reason? I've lived in CT for the better part of three years now and still don't get it- the insane level of pride, the idea that CT is in anyway like other parts of New England, the defensiveness. To me CT seems as much like Jersey (if not more) than Mass or RI.

And don't get me started on the car tax...

[RichH]

OK...I don't mean this to pile on CT, because overall, I do like it here.  (And trust me, I'd love to get to Spitzer's hooker...ahem)  But I feel like I need a chance to respond, and thread drift on JSID is probably the most minor sin possible...

[quote Liz '05] We're a region for a reason.[/quote]

Like Chris asked, what reason?  It's a made-up reason that's been engrained in your head based on imaginary borders.  My best guess why: It's cooler and has more cachet to say you're from "New England" than it is to say you're from Connecticut.  Instead of loving CT for what it is (and making it the best CT it could be), people tend to try to force it to be what it isn't...based on the "New England" ideal.  And that's too bad.

It is an obsession.  I had a conversation recently in CA with a colleague who is originally from the Hartford suburbs, and he told a story from when Bob Kraft was jockeying for a new stadium by threatening to move the Patriots to Hartford.  Someone he knew from Boston said to him "Hey, can you believe they want to move the Patriots out of New England?"  My colleague got visibly angry even in the retelling of how he couldn't believe that a Bostonite didn't count Connecticut as part of New England.  The nerve!  It's all well and good to be exclusive until someone else excludes you, eh?

As far as sports allegiences go here, I feel this is ground-zero of the Red Sox-Yankees border war.  I'd agree that the further East you go from Hartford, the more Soxy you get, and the further South you go (and closer to the MetroNorth sphere of influence), NYY takes over.  It actually makes me feel incredibly sorry for CT Mets fans...they may as well be rooting for the Nippon Ham Fighters for all the coverage they wind up getting.  I'm about ready to pretend I'm a Mets fan just to join the fight to get SNY (which Comcast owns) up here for the outstanding hockey/lax coverage they provide.  As for football, I discovered recently that there are a lot of older NY Giants fans...because the Pats didn't even exist for them back-in-the-day.

OK, back on topic...odd how the 3 states of the "Tri-State Area" have had their governors all resign in disgrace a few years apart, huh?

[Jacob 03]

[quote RichH][quote Liz '05] We're a region for a reason.[/quote]Like Chris asked, what reason?  It's a made-up reason that's been engrained in your head based on imaginary borders.[/quote]Because Boston is just like the Cape which is just like Worcester which is just like the Berkshires.    And Manchester, Durham, and Nashua have so much in common.  And...well, I haven't lived in Vermont yet, so I'm out sarcastic examples.  To the extent "New England" is an accurate term after the Revolution it is only as an ideal of those small towns with their one white church and common.  You can find fifty of these in all six states, I promise you.  But even our tiny Northeastern states have so much diversity within their own borders that it's silly to pretend that their state identities are so strong compared to any cross-border identity.  If we let Kyle redraw the maps maybe they'd be a bit stronger, but there are always going to be two identical towns across the state border from each other.  Connecticans didn't assign the term "New England" to themselves, so it seems silly to blame them for using it.  And I assure you, Ledyard does look exactly like Londonderry.  It's just that people in New Hampshire look to Boston because there's nowhere else to look, but Connecticut (well, part of it) has the best (and worst) of both worlds.  Do you think the overall differences are starker than those amongst residents of the Midwest or the South?  Can't we all just agree we're better than those places?

[KeithK]

[quote RichH]Like Chris asked, what reason?  It's a made-up reason that's been engrained in your head based on imaginary borders.[/quote]
It's not an imaginary reason.  There's a perfectly good historical reason why  CT is part of New England.  The New Haven and Connecticut colonies were part of the "United Colonies of New England" as far back as 1643 and then later the "Dominion of New England".    Obviously New England hasn't been a political entity for 200+ years, but the populace still remembers their history and attachment, much the same as southerners do. New York and New Jersey were later added to the Dominion, but as later additions that were originally Dutch they had a different character are were never really considered part of NE by the populace.

(Note: source material was wikipedia, but I have no reason to think any of this would be wrong.)

[Josh '99]

[quote Chris '03] To me CT seems as much like Jersey (if not more) than Mass or RI. [/quote]As a New Jersey native, I am offended by the suggestion that Connecticut is like us.  ::cuss::


New Jersey: Irrationally Proud  :-D

[RichH]

[quote Jacob 03]Do you think the overall differences are starker than those amongst residents of the Midwest or the South?  Can't we all just agree we're better than those places?[/quote]

Yeah, except that a lot of the people in my hometown (in WNY) act like midwesterners, which gives me a similar "open your borders and your minds will follow" attitude towards there that I have around here.  As in it's politically liberal, socially conservative in both places (save for the REALLY rural people.)

Anyway...all this has awakened the "federalist" portion of my political psyche.  Screw the inconsistencies of standing on one side of this line on the map or the other.  Blue Laws??  Alcohol sales, interstate commerce...even in these modern times?  Another example: what's the reason that each state has to have a painfully bureaucratic DMV when we could have 1 painfully bureaucratic system? (yeah, yeah...hoo-boy...I know)  Are the rules of the road across the nation really all that different that we can't have a Federal test and I don't have to jump through 80 hoops every time I move across a state line?

[ursusminor]

[quote Josh '99][quote Chris '03] To me CT seems as much like Jersey (if not more) than Mass or RI. [/quote]As a New Jersey native, I am offended by the suggestion that Connecticut is like us.  ::cuss::


New Jersey: Irrationally Proud  :-D[/quote]

NJ's zipcodes start with zero as do New England's. This must be based on some fundamental similarity. ::whistle::

[KeithK]

Unfortunately for your argument the COnstitution doesn't give the federal government the power to open and run DMV's and issue licenses in the states.  Or at least, no one has tried to warp the "I Can Do Anything As Long As I Say Commerce" clause into covering this.

Federalism is a good thing.  It's a very good thing that NY can set a higher minimum age for driving than Montana, for both places.  Distributing the power lets local people (or more local) pick laws that better suit them.  And if you don't like the laws chosen by your neighbors you can move somewhere where the laws will suit you (especially easy in this day and age).  One size fits all solutions are much less likely to be locally optimal and probably involve even bigger bureaucracies to manage their large size.