Senior letdown

[calgARI '07]

[quote Johnny 5]But, then, he could spell dedication.[/quote]

There are plenty of players who graduate from Cornell who couldn't spell dedication.  The difference between the massive majority of players who stay for four years and the ones who leave early is that the latter are generally much better.  The guys who stay four years stay because they aren't good enough to go pro and/or are good enough and are not pursued to leave.  Jack Johnson and Jonathan Toews were huge exceptions not leaving after being pursued to.  It's too bad that the mid-tier guys leave (anybody that leaves Cornell early is mid-tier for the most part) early especially because for the most part it hurts their development more than it helps.  Pelletier, Hynes, LeNeveu, McKee.  Maybe Hynes, LeNeveu, and McKee will still make it to the NHL, but I doubt Hynes and McKee thought they were leaving Cornell for the ECHL and I think LeNeveu expected to be in the NHL by now.

[bandrews37]

[quote calgARI '07][quote Johnny 5]But, then, he could spell dedication.[/quote]

There are plenty of players who graduate from Cornell who couldn't spell dedication.  The difference between the massive majority of players who stay for four years and the ones who leave early is that the latter are generally much better.  The guys who stay four years stay because they aren't good enough to go pro and/or are good enough and are not pursued to leave.  Jack Johnson and Jonathan Toews were huge exceptions not leaving after being pursued to.  It's too bad that the mid-tier guys leave (anybody that leaves Cornell early is mid-tier for the most part) early especially because for the most part it hurts their development more than it helps.  Pelletier, Hynes, LeNeveu, McKee.  Maybe Hynes, LeNeveu, and McKee will still make it to the NHL, but I doubt Hynes and McKee thought they were leaving Cornell for the ECHL and I think LeNeveu expected to be in the NHL by now.[/quote]

Or maybe for some of the guys, they realized school isn't for them. It's certainly not for everyone - had Pokulok stayed, he probably wouldn't have the grades to keep playing. Maybe for some guys, they're just happier just playing hockey - I certainly can't begrudge someone for doing what they love, no matter what level it may be at.

[jtwcornell91]

[quote calgARI '07]The difference between the massive majority of players who stay for four years and the ones who leave early is that the latter are generally much better.  The guys who stay four years stay because they aren't good enough to go pro and/or are good enough and are not pursued to leave.[/quote]

I think this is what bugs, that leaving school early is now a goal and/or sign of success.  Do you think when Cornell interviews prospective students they're looking for kids who see finishing their degrees as plan B?

[ugarte]

[quote jtwcornell91][quote calgARI '07]The difference between the massive majority of players who stay for four years and the ones who leave early is that the latter are generally much better.  The guys who stay four years stay because they aren't good enough to go pro and/or are good enough and are not pursued to leave.[/quote]

I think this is what bugs, that leaving school early is now a goal and/or sign of success.  Do you think when Cornell interviews prospective students they're looking for kids who see finishing their degrees as plan B?[/quote]
I think Cornell has their eyes wide open here. They may not be tOSU bringing in Greg Oden for one-and-out but they are well aware that when they bring in a goalie that is being considered for Team Canada they may not keep him for four years.

[ugarte]

[quote calgARI '07]... but I doubt Hynes ... thought [he was] leaving Cornell for the ECHL and I think LeNeveu expected to be in the NHL by now.[/quote]
Hynes got hurt; he probably didn't expect that either. All things considered, he is probably happier that he got hurt after signing a contract than had the same thing happened in a game at Quinnipiac.

LeNeveu got to the NHL without the need of additional seasoning at Cornell. I'm sure he is disappointed by both his play in the NHL and the scapegoating by Gretzky. I still think that if he had to do it over he makes the same choice.

McKee is probably disappointed about where he is - but the time spent as the emergency goalie in Anaheim probably takes some of the sting out of it.

[calgARI '07]

[quote ugarte][quote calgARI '07]... but I doubt Hynes ... thought [he was] leaving Cornell for the ECHL and I think LeNeveu expected to be in the NHL by now.[/quote]

LeNeveu got to the NHL without the need of additional seasoning at Cornell. I'm sure he is disappointed by both his play in the NHL and the scapegoating by Gretzky. I still think that if he had to do it over he makes the same choice.

[/quote]

At the time, it sure seemed as if it were scapegoating by Gretzky, but considering how well they have played since they brought in Tellqvist (LeNeveu's replacement), maybe he was on to something.

[ugarte]

[quote calgARI '07][quote ugarte][quote calgARI '07]... but I doubt Hynes ... thought [he was] leaving Cornell for the ECHL and I think LeNeveu expected to be in the NHL by now.[/quote]

LeNeveu got to the NHL without the need of additional seasoning at Cornell. I'm sure he is disappointed by both his play in the NHL and the scapegoating by Gretzky. I still think that if he had to do it over he makes the same choice.

[/quote]

At the time, it sure seemed as if it were scapegoating by Gretzky, but considering how well they have played since they brought in Tellqvist (LeNeveu's replacement), maybe he was on to something.[/quote]
His Sv% is still better than CuJo's. The team may have been inspired (and Tellqvist's GAA and Sv% are better than LeNeveu's, to be sure) but it is still scapegoating to blame a backup goalie who has played in 6 games.

[billhoward]

The thread has taken an interesting turn and probably better turn. The initial subject headline meant, "What a letdown for the seniors like Ari, sitting in the stands, who aren't going to be able to boast about an NCAA title." Maybe because they got let down by senior and would-have-been-senior hockey players.

It's good to see people believe Davenport has incredible upside potential. We have, er, seen the opposite poential a couple times, too.

[ninian '72]

Comparing today's kids to those of the Dryden era ignores the fact that college hockey in the Dryden period was almost never a springboard to the NHL.  There was little to no incentive to leave early.

[mtmack25]

[quote ugarte]
McKee is probably disappointed about where he is - but the time spent as the emergency goalie in Anaheim probably takes some of the sting out of it.[/quote]


McKee was undrafted.  He was a straight free agent when he left, after having a great year.  If my memory serves me, he had 4 teams after him, which means he probably got top dollar.  Based on that assumption, I assume that his salary for the current year is about $800,000(after all he got an NHL contract).  He also got something of a signing bonus, and lets not forget the playoff roster bonuses he got for being on the Anaheim roster for the stretch.  Yes, McKee got to be emergency goalie and part of the team for a while(the result of his contract date, not coaching), but I think its the amount of money that he is paid to play the sport he loves that takes some of the sting out.

[ugarte]

[quote mtmack25][quote ugarte]
McKee is probably disappointed about where he is - but the time spent as the emergency goalie in Anaheim probably takes some of the sting out of it.[/quote]... but I think its the amount of money that he is paid to play the sport he loves that takes some of the sting out.[/quote]Well, sure, but an entirely different point. I figure that every player who left early did well financially but that doesn't mean they all have the same level of professional satisfaction.

[RichH]

[quote ugarte]McKee is probably disappointed about where he is - but the time spent as the emergency goalie in Anaheim probably takes some of the sting out of it.[/quote]

Another thing to consider: it usually takes at least 2 seasons for even the best NCAA goalies to make the NHL for good.  I just compiled a list.

Full NHL: The first season in which more games were played in the NHL than in any other league.
Years: The number of full seasons between the final college season and the first full NHL season.

Player             left College    Full NHL      Years
KFD        1969      1972      2
Brian Hayward     1981      1983      1
Darren Eliot     1983      1985      1
Doug Dadswell     1986      1988      1
Mike Richter     1987      1990      2
Ed Belfour     1987      1991      3
Curtis Joseph     1989      1991      1
Robb Stauber!     1989      1993      3
Garth Snow     1993      1996      2
Mike Dunham     1993      1997      3
Jim Carey     1994      1996      1
Tim Thomas     1997      2006      8
Marty Turco     1998      2001      2   
Ryan Miller!     2002      2006*      3(2)*
Wade Dubielewicz  2003      ?      3+
Dave LeNeveu     2003      ?      3+
Jim Howard     2005      ?      1+
Dave McKee     2006      ?      ?


! = Hobey Baker Award
* = Ryan Miller was NHL ready in the non-existant season of '04-'05

I know that Ken Freaking Dryden played on the Canadian National Team and led the Habs through the playoffs with minimal NHL experience prior to his first full NHL season, but he still played a year in the AHL.   My favorite on this list is obviously Tim Thomas, since in 1997, he was all set to push Patrick Roy into retirement.  :-)  A lot of perseverance from that guy to have finally made it in Boston.

I think it's tougher to make it today than it was in the '80s, since there's a lot more competition from Europe for the limited spots.  But nobody that I can find has ever made "the jump" without at least a full year of seasoning at a lower level.  

I may have missed it from an alumni thread, but it looks like JMP is no longer with the Amerks in the AHL and is now with Adler-Mannheim in Germay.

[mtmack25]

[quote ugarte]Well, sure, but an entirely different point. I figure that every player who left early did well financially but that doesn't mean they all have the same level of professional satisfaction.[/quote]

I stand corrected:

Shane Hynes:  $540,000
Sasha Pokulok: $850,000
Dave McKee: $850,000
Ryan O'Byrne: $635,000

per www2.sportsnet.ca

All doing very well for themselves.

I do go back to my aside on McKee, though.  He was on the roster because of CBA rules, not necessarily because of his performance.

[Omie]

[quote calgARI '07][quote KeithK][quote calgARI '07][quote Trotsky]

That year, Cornell had Dave McKee in goal.  Over that 8-game period, he let in 1 or 0 goals six times.
[/quote]

Yes, and he had his fair share of struggles up to that point in the season.  I'm sure many will disagree, but I think Davenport has just as much if not more upside than McKee.[/quote]For the sake of argument I'll accept that statement.  The difference McKee was able to fulfill his potential to a maximum degree at least in his sophomore season.  If Davenport has a high ceiling we haven't seen him play up to that level yet.  Hopefully he will, though I'll be skeptical about his ability until he elevates his game a bit.  (Though in fairness McKee was no world beater three years ago either.)[/quote]

Absolutely.  McKee was unbelievable in 04-05 and IMO put forth the best goaltending performance I have seen at Cornell be it a smaller sample than most.  Davenport has shown glimpses as McKee did his freshman year.  He has had four or five spectacular games and four or five awful ones which is not all that different than what McKee had done to this point his freshman year. This is about the point where McKee took off and got his game to the next level.  

I know it doesn't mean everything in the world, but it is important not to forget how much success Davenport had in the USHL, arguably the toughest junior A league.  McKee was good but not as successful in a far lesser league.  Again, doesn't mean a ton, but having a winning pedigree is very important IMO.

Also notable is that Davenport's best game came against far and away the toughest opponent.[/quote]

Who Wayne State?

I'm sorry guys but Davenport is no Mckee. Firstly, remember that Mckee won out the starting job from Davenport. Second, Davenport has been pulled in 1/2 a year more than Mckee did in over 3 years. Davenport may have more potential than what he has shown so far but he definitely is not even close to becoming a #1 goalie in the nation.

[calgARI '07]

[quote Omie]

I'm sorry guys but Davenport is no Mckee. Firstly, remember that Mckee won out the starting job from Davenport. Second, Davenport has been pulled in 1/2 a year more than Mckee did in over 3 years. Davenport may have more potential than what he has shown so far but he definitely is not even close to becoming a #1 goalie in the nation.[/quote]

Is it possible that Schafer is just being harder on Davenport than he was McKee?  

McKee was the clear #1 when Davenport came in as a freshman - he didn't win out any job from him.  (Not sure why Davenport never got a start but that is for another time.)  Bottom line to me is that Davenport had a ton of success after leaving Cornell.  He won a championship in arguably the toughest junior A league in North America which says a lot about him.  I think his play is being negatively affected by the way Schafer is treating him.