Kyle Dake and other dominant Cornell athletes

[Chuck Henderson]

Someone sees just your list and not your underlying thoughts, they'll think: "The man is daft." You do make some interesting points. But, sheesh, Ken Dryden behind four others?

I gave my justification for putting Nieuwendyk ahead of Dryden, but it could be argued either way. My main point was that I didn't think they should be 5 positions apart on the Alumni Magazine list.

As for the others I have ahead of Dryden:

Roberson finished 1/4" behind Ralph Boston in the Rome Olympics; Boston's jump set the Olympic record. Both were right at Jesse Owens's world record, which Boston had bested a couple of weeks earlier. Igor Ter-Ovanesyan, not a slouch, finished third. Roberson had a pretty good pro football career. (An interesting note in Wikipedia: "Bo Roberson is the only person to have an Ivy League degree, a Ph.D., an Olympic medal and a career in the N.F.L."

Dake is probably the greatest collegiate wrestler ever, given no red shirt and the competition he faced. I don't mean in any way to diminish Dryden. Can it be said that he's the greatest college hockey player? It's difficult to distinguish goalies from other players. As I wrote earlier and as Jim is saying, with a post-Cornell career incomplete, Dake's ranking is incomplete, and an Olympic medal might alter some views.

Moore may be the most debatable, but he held the American record in the 400m hurdles, won the Olympics just off world-record time (also a silver in the 4x400 relay), won NCAA championships, and was the top in his primary event over a period of years.

A lot of thought and discussion went into compiling the list of top athletes. If there are any certainties in compiling a list of the 10 greatest male athletes at each of the Ivy schools -- Luckman or Gehrig #1 at Columbia? Bednarik or Tilden at Penn? Calvin Hill or a Doonesbury character at Yale? -- the givens would be Bradley at Princeton and Dryden at Cornell: stellar in college in and out of the uniform, standouts against the competition, stellar in the pros, stellar in service to their country.

Or maybe Dick Kazmaier in a tie with Bradley, for some earlier Princeton fans (certainly if he had gone ahead with a pro career)?

Perhaps one needs to distinguish fame, on which you're surely right about Dryden, from accomplishments like Dake's. Criteria are difficult: elite talent in a single sport versus great ability across more than one sport; for this kind of list, undergraduate versus later accomplishment. I'll admit to a little bias toward versatility across more than one sport and measurable performance as in track and field.

You say a lot of thought and discussion went into compiling the list of top athletes. I assume you're talking about the Alumni Magazine list, and I'm sure that's true. As I read the article, after nominations there appears to have been a vote and no subsequent revisions of rankings. Perhaps you know more about the process. My point was that simple voting seemed to me to result in some internal inconsistency.

I still have to put Dryden first. He was head and shoulders above his college opponents, and had immediate and lasting impact in the pros. Now if we get some Olympic Gold medals, that might change. But I also thought Gretzky should have won out against Ali.

I'm not sure what ranking involved Gretzky and Ali. There was lots of discussion at the millennium about the best athletes of the century. I was involved in that on a few discussion lists. Perhaps as context for the way I think about things, I had Jim Brown, Jackie Robinson, Carl Lewis, and Wilt Chamberlain high in my rankings, at least in part because of versatility.

[Al DeFlorio]

Dake is probably the greatest collegiate wrestler ever, given no red shirt and the competition he faced. I don't mean in any way to diminish Dryden. Can it be said that he's the greatest college hockey player? It's difficult to distinguish goalies from other players. As I wrote earlier and as Jim is saying, with a post-Cornell career incomplete, Dake's ranking is incomplete, and an Olympic medal might alter some views.

Don't want to get into a Dake vs. Dryden debate, but SI naming Dake college athlete of the year is something few Ivy athletes will ever see.

[Jim Hyla]

Someone sees just your list and not your underlying thoughts, they'll think: "The man is daft." You do make some interesting points. But, sheesh, Ken Dryden behind four others?

I gave my justification for putting Nieuwendyk ahead of Dryden, but it could be argued either way. My main point was that I didn't think they should be 5 positions apart on the Alumni Magazine list.

As for the others I have ahead of Dryden:

Roberson finished 1/4" behind Ralph Boston in the Rome Olympics; Boston's jump set the Olympic record. Both were right at Jesse Owens's world record, which Boston had bested a couple of weeks earlier. Igor Ter-Ovanesyan, not a slouch, finished third. Roberson had a pretty good pro football career. (An interesting note in Wikipedia: "Bo Roberson is the only person to have an Ivy League degree, a Ph.D., an Olympic medal and a career in the N.F.L."

Dake is probably the greatest collegiate wrestler ever, given no red shirt and the competition he faced. I don't mean in any way to diminish Dryden. Can it be said that he's the greatest college hockey player? It's difficult to distinguish goalies from other players. As I wrote earlier and as Jim is saying, with a post-Cornell career incomplete, Dake's ranking is incomplete, and an Olympic medal might alter some views.

Moore may be the most debatable, but he held the American record in the 400m hurdles, won the Olympics just off world-record time (also a silver in the 4x400 relay), won NCAA championships, and was the top in his primary event over a period of years.

A lot of thought and discussion went into compiling the list of top athletes. If there are any certainties in compiling a list of the 10 greatest male athletes at each of the Ivy schools -- Luckman or Gehrig #1 at Columbia? Bednarik or Tilden at Penn? Calvin Hill or a Doonesbury character at Yale? -- the givens would be Bradley at Princeton and Dryden at Cornell: stellar in college in and out of the uniform, standouts against the competition, stellar in the pros, stellar in service to their country.

Or maybe Dick Kazmaier in a tie with Bradley, for some earlier Princeton fans (certainly if he had gone ahead with a pro career)?

Perhaps one needs to distinguish fame, on which you're surely right about Dryden, from accomplishments like Dake's. Criteria are difficult: elite talent in a single sport versus great ability across more than one sport; for this kind of list, undergraduate versus later accomplishment. I'll admit to a little bias toward versatility across more than one sport and measurable performance as in track and field.

You say a lot of thought and discussion went into compiling the list of top athletes. I assume you're talking about the Alumni Magazine list, and I'm sure that's true. As I read the article, after nominations there appears to have been a vote and no subsequent revisions of rankings. Perhaps you know more about the process. My point was that simple voting seemed to me to result in some internal inconsistency.

I still have to put Dryden first. He was head and shoulders above his college opponents, and had immediate and lasting impact in the pros. Now if we get some Olympic Gold medals, that might change. But I also thought Gretzky should have won out against Ali.

I'm not sure what ranking involved Gretzky and Ali. There was lots of discussion at the millennium about the best athletes of the century. I was involved in that on a few discussion lists. Perhaps as context for the way I think about things, I had Jim Brown, Jackie Robinson, Carl Lewis, and Wilt Chamberlain high in my rankings, at least in part because of versatility.

Sports Illustrated

[George64]

Most of you are too young to have seen him play for Cornell, but Pete Gogolak '64 named to list of top 100 NY Giants players.

An interesting aside, his younger brother Charlie, played for Princeton, and like Pete, he kicked low line drives.  In an effort to block his field goal attempts, our then coach, Tom Harp, had two lighter players piggy-back on the shoulders of two tall defensive tackles.  As I recall, it didn't work and was later declared illegal.  He later had two defensive tackles act as ramps and had two lighter players run up their backs.  This didn't work either and was likewise declared illegal, but you can't fault him for trying.