Lowe's Senior Class Award_Vote for Keir Ross

[billhoward]

Is there a stat you'd rate higher, or do you find stats not meaningful in ice hockey?

[ugarte]

Is there a stat you'd rate higher, or do you find stats not meaningful in ice hockey?

As opposed to field hockey, where stats tell you everything.

[CowbellGuy]

Is there a stat you'd rate higher, or do you find stats not meaningful in ice hockey?

I think stats are very meaningful. Just not that one. And unfortunately due to the nature of the game, there aren't really many stats in hockey that tell you much. Goals, assists, blocked shots, hits, time-on-ice, face-off percentage are useful. Shots and scoring percentage are somewhat meaningful. And game-winning goal is another meaningless stat. +/- was just a desperate attempt to force an all-encompassing stat into the game that can't have one.

[Roy 82]

But how many goals and assists that you have is clearly a function of who is on the ice with you. Ryan Vesce scored his NHL goals when he was on a line with Joe Thornton, not when he was the fourth line center. So I am not sure why goals/assists is any better an indicator of individual value than +/-.

[ftyuv]

I know I'm in the minority on this one, but I actually do find +/- useful -- you just have to take it with a grain of salt. I mean, we all agree that scoring goals is good, and we all agree that not letting the other guys score is good, right? And I think we all intuit that there are forwards who are bad at defense, and forwards who play a two-way game. So yes, you have to make sure to do an apples-to-apples comparison -- for instance, the +/-s of comparable players (first line forwards against first line forwards, top-2 defensemen against top-2 defensemen, etc). That doesn't mean you throw the whole stat away, though.

I agree about the GWG, though. The only times I've ever thought it was a halfway meaningful stat was when I was the one who scored it.

[Weder]

I'm not a big stats person, but these guys have been getting a fair amount of publicity lately:
http://www.sportsanalyticsinstitute.com/content/insights

[CowbellGuy]

But how many goals and assists that you have is clearly a function of who is on the ice with you. Ryan Vesce scored his NHL goals when he was on a line with Joe Thornton, not when he was the fourth line center. So I am not sure why goals/assists is any better an indicator of individual value than +/-.

Sure, it's a function of who you're on the ice with, but if you're picking up points, you're at least touching the puck and in on the play. I could, however, be sitting inside my net picking my nose and and still collect plusses while the rest of my team does all the work.

[ftyuv]

But how many goals and assists that you have is clearly a function of who is on the ice with you. Ryan Vesce scored his NHL goals when he was on a line with Joe Thornton, not when he was the fourth line center. So I am not sure why goals/assists is any better an indicator of individual value than +/-.

Sure, it's a function of who you're on the ice with, but if you're picking up points, you're at least touching the puck and in on the play. I could, however, be sitting inside my net picking my nose and and still collect plusses while the rest of my team does all the work.

Come on, that's a bit of a straw man. Chances are pretty good that if you did that, your team would be a lot less effective than if you were making plays -- and everyone, including you, would suffer on the +/-. I don't think anyone is arguing that your teammates don't affect your +/-, but if you're looking for a hockey stat that measures an individual's abilities divorced of his teammates', you won't find it anywhere other than the All Star's skills competition.

[CowbellGuy]

But how many goals and assists that you have is clearly a function of who is on the ice with you. Ryan Vesce scored his NHL goals when he was on a line with Joe Thornton, not when he was the fourth line center. So I am not sure why goals/assists is any better an indicator of individual value than +/-.

Sure, it's a function of who you're on the ice with, but if you're picking up points, you're at least touching the puck and in on the play. I could, however, be sitting inside my net picking my nose and and still collect plusses while the rest of my team does all the work.

Come on, that's a bit of a straw man. Chances are pretty good that if you did that, your team would be a lot less effective than if you were making plays -- and everyone, including you, would suffer on the +/-. I don't think anyone is arguing that your teammates don't affect your +/-, but if you're looking for a hockey stat that measures an individual's abilities divorced of his teammates', you won't find it anywhere other than the All Star's skills competition.

I'm not looking for stats that are completely divorced from your teammates, but I'm also not looking for a stat from which the player in question can be completely divorced.

[ftyuv]

But how many goals and assists that you have is clearly a function of who is on the ice with you. Ryan Vesce scored his NHL goals when he was on a line with Joe Thornton, not when he was the fourth line center. So I am not sure why goals/assists is any better an indicator of individual value than +/-.

Sure, it's a function of who you're on the ice with, but if you're picking up points, you're at least touching the puck and in on the play. I could, however, be sitting inside my net picking my nose and and still collect plusses while the rest of my team does all the work.

Come on, that's a bit of a straw man. Chances are pretty good that if you did that, your team would be a lot less effective than if you were making plays -- and everyone, including you, would suffer on the +/-. I don't think anyone is arguing that your teammates don't affect your +/-, but if you're looking for a hockey stat that measures an individual's abilities divorced of his teammates', you won't find it anywhere other than the All Star's skills competition.

I'm not looking for stats that are completely divorced from your teammates, but I'm also not looking for a stat from which the player in question can be completely divorced.

I guess I'm saying that if your argument that +/- is such a stat is backed only by your nose-picking net-sitter example, I'm not convinced.

[Jim Hyla]

He's now 4^th, so vote.

[marty]

I can no longer vote for Keir using the Dolphin Mini (browser) on my Android phone.  (The reason that Dophin mini is my browser of choice has to do with reading forums such as this message board.  Unless ELynah supports tapatalk at some point I am wed to Dolphin Mini.)

I can vote using the stock browser and would like all reading here to vote with their phones on a daily basis.::panic::