Men's Lax Tournament 2024

Info is as of the end of the regular season and all the 4/27 games.

IVY LEAGUE MEN'S LACROSSE TOURNAMENT
At Cornell (School of #1 Seed)
Semifinals, Friday, May 3
1 seed Cornell vs. 4 Penn, 8:30
2 seed Princeton vs. 3 Yale, 6 pm
Final, Sunday, May 5
Title game, 1 pm
No third-place game
Ticket info
"Coming soon" says the ILT site. Cornell ticket site now active: [cornellbigred.com]
All games (Tournament Package): Adults $20, Kids 12 and under $10
Friday (2 games): $15, kids $10
Sunday (1 game): $10, kids ("14 and under" (typo? Sunday rule?) $5
Free: participating team students (Columbia had it "Ivy students last year" ), children 2 and under

Weather in Ithaca as of Tuesday 4/30
Friday: Partly sunny, high 75
Saturday: rain, 62
Sunday: rain, 58 (had been "partly cloudy, high 64 as of 4/27)

Final Ivy League Standings, 2024 
SCHOOL	        CONF	CPCT.	OVERALL	PCT.	STREAK  WINS OVER 4-2 TEAMS
Cornell *	5-1	.833	9-4	.692	W2      Yale, Prin
Princeton	4-2	.667	9-4	.692	W2      Yale, Penn
Yale *	        4-2	.667	11-3	.786	L1      Penn  
Penn *	        4-2	.667	8-5	.615	L1      
Harvard	        2-4	.333	8-5	.615	W1
Brown	        2-4	.333	3-11	.214	L2
Dartmouth	0-6	.000	3-10	.231	L7
*clinched 2024 Ivy League men's lacrosse tournament berth

---

---

* Most of this is irrelevant since Cornell won the RS title outright. It does apply to how 3 teams, all 4-2, wound up 2-Princeton, 3-Yale, 4-Penn.
* Cornell took itself out of the tiebreaker by going 5-1 not 4-2.
* Princeton beat both Yale and Penn, gets second seed.
* Yale beat Penn, gets third seed.
* Penn win over Cornell was over a 5-1 not 4-2 team.


Info on the Ivy League Lacrosse Tournament as of 4/23 heading into the final weekend of play. Who gets in and where they might finish:

Cornell, Yale and Penn are in the tournament. It will be hosted by Cornell or Yale. It's likely to be Cornell, Yale, Penn, probably Princeton. Brown has an outside chance at the 4-seed if 2-3 Brown>Harvard and Yale>3-2 Princeton.

1T (Ivy standing 4/23). Cornell 4-1 Ivy at Dartmouth 0-5 4pm
If Cornell beats Dartmouth, Cornell hosts the ILT, at least ties for Ivy title.
Cornell hosts ILT if Cornell>Dartmouth and Yale>Princeton because Cornell won the C>Y H2H.

1T. Yale 4-1 hosts Princeton 3-2, 12 noon
If Yale beats Princeton (and Cornell beats Dartmouth), both tie for the Ivy RS title at 5-1, Cornell hosts the ILT with its win over Yale Princeton.
If Princeton beats Yale, Princeton makes the ILT, Brown cannot. Princeton gets the 2-seed .
If Princeton loses to Yale and Harvard beats Brown, Princeton gets in.
If Princeton loses to Yale and Brown beats Harvard, both finish 3-3, Brown gets in.
Princeton can be anywhere from the 2-seed to not-in-ILT.

3. Penn, 4-2, season finished.
Has a win over Cornell, losses to Yale and Princeton. All other W's against the bottom 3 teams.
Penn is in the tournament.

5. Brown 2-3 at 6 Harvard 1-4, 3:30 pm
Brown gets in if a) Yale beats 3-2 Princeton and b) Brown beats Harvard, then Brown gets the 4-seed and likely plays Cornell. I.e., Brown needs 2 things to go right to make the show, Princeton only needs 1. Brown took Maryland to OT early season, but just lost 10-7 to Bryant Tuesday.
Note Brown is much lower in RPI (38) than Harvard (19). Harvard is ranked in the polls, Brown is not.

7. Dartmouth 0-5 hosts Cornell
Can only play the spoiler (possibly keep Cornell from Ivy RS crown). Won't make the tournament.

Standings and H2H Comparisons

   Team      Ivy  Overall  RPI 
1. Yale      4-1  11-2     10
2. Cornell   4-1   8-4      8 
3. Penn      4-2   8-5     12 
4. Princeton 3-2   8-4     15
5. Brown     2-3   3-9     38
6. Harvard   1-4   7-5     19 
7. Dartmouth 0-5   3-9     60

Head-to-Head Comparisons to break ties
	 Versus	 Ya	Co	Pe	Pr	Br	Ha	Da
1 Yale      4-1	  –	L	W		W	W	W
1 Cornell   4-1	  W	–	L	W	W	W	 
3 Penn      4-2	  L	W	–	L	W	W	W
4 Princeton 3-2    	L	W	–	L	W       W
5 Brown	    2-3	  L	L	L	W	–		W
Harvard	    1-4	  L	L	L		L	–	W
Dartmouth   0-5	  L	  	L	L	L	L	–

For seeding:
* Overall Ivy record
* H2H between 2 tied teams or
* Cumulative H2H among 3+ tied teams
* (Once high seed determined) H2H among remaining tied teams
* If still ties, drop down to record against next team lower
This is complex, the long form is here: rules in full

Best outcome for Cornell:
Cornell > Dartmouth, Cornell wins Ivy League RS title. Odds: likely
Yale > Princeton, Yale & Cornell finish 4-1, Cornell wins ILT top seed. Odds: tossup
Brown > Harvard, Brown and Princeton finish 3-3, Brown wins H2H, gets 4-seed, plays 1-seed. Odds: iffy, Brown has better Ivy record, Harvard has higher RPI.

---

Information below posted first week of April

Thinking about Cornell's chances for hosting the 2024 Ivy League lacrosse tournament the first weekend in May. It goes to the school with the best record. If there's a tie, it goes to the team with the best combined record against the others tied for first. So that one-goal Cornell loss to Penn is an issue. With Ivy 3 games left for Penn, Yale, Princeton and Cornell, 4 left for Harvard, Dartmouth and Brown, the league as of March 31 stands:

Team      W-L   Ivy Games To Play
                Apr 6    Apr 13     Apr 20     Apr 27       Outcomes 
Penn      3-0   @Yale    Harvard    @Princeton              Y12-P09  P15-H12
Yale      2-1   Penn     @Dartmouth             Princeton   Y12-P09  Y20-D13
Princeton 2-1            Brown      Penn        @Yale       -------  D13-P12  
Cornell   2-1   Brown               Harvard     @Dartmouth  C14-B08  -------
Harvard   0-2   Dart     @Penn      @Cornell    Brown       H13-D08  
Dartmouth 0-2   @Harv    Yale       @Brown      Cornell
Brown     0-2   @Cornell Princeton  Dartmouth   @Harvard

Penn has the toughest Ivy schedule: Yale and Princeton on the road bookending a home game against Harvard (0-2 Ivy but 6-3 overall). Cornell has the easiest: the three 0-2 teams. If Yale or Princeton (or Harvard?) beats Penn, the likely multi-way tie favors Cornell. All four are 10-15 in the polls; on RPI Cornell is #7 (Syracuse game included) and PYP are 10-15 (Harvard is 17).

Penn has beaten Duke, Delaware and North Carolina but lost 12-7 to St. Joseph's and only beat Dartmouth by 3. After which they won the 2-OT Cornell game.

Good scenario for Cornell: Cornell wins out in the Ivies. Yale or Princeton beats Penn. Or both. Penn finishes with 2 or 3 losses, Cornell wins the H2H with Yale or Princeton, hosts the tournament.

Bad scenario for Cornell:
* Cornell wins out but so does Penn, the winner of the Princeton-Yale finale loses one other game, Penn wins the H2H.
* Cornell loses a second Ivy game. Unthinkable when the last 3 IL games are against the worst three Ivy teams. But ...
We need for Penn to lose a second game or there to be more than a Penn-Cornell one-loss tie for first.
I believe those are the scenarios.


The 2024 rules in full. The key parts here:

The Ivy League
Men's Lacrosse Tournament Tiebreakers
[updated per coach group decision prior to 2023 season]

1. In the case of two-way ties between teams in the final standings, the higher seed will be determined on the basis of head-to-head competition.

2. In the case of a multiple ties (more than two teams with the same record), the following procedure will be used:
The highest seed will go to the team with the best cumulative record against all other teams tied at that spot. (If multiple teams are tied with the same record, the tie between those teams will be broken on the basis of cumulative record against each other)
Once a highest seed(s) (amongst the tied teams) is determined, the initial tie is broken. The tie between the remaining teams will be determined on the basis of cumulative record against all other remaining teams tied at that spot.
This procedure will be repeated until all possible ties are broken. (If there are remaining unbroken ties within the group, the remaining tied teams move on to step 3.)

3. In the case of a multiple team tie that cannot be broken on the basis of review of cumulative record:
The highest seed will go to the team that has beaten the highest seeded team outside of the tie and continuing through the full league standings (If multiple teams have beaten the highest seeded team outside of the tie, the tie between those teams will be broken on the basis of cumulative record against each other).
Once a highest seed(s) (amongst the tied teams) is determined, the initial tie is broken. The tie between the remaining teams shall be determined on the basis of cumulative record against all other remaining teams tied at that spot.
This procedure will be completed until all possible ties are broken. (If there remaining unbroken ties within the group, the remaining tied teams move on to step 4.) ...

I wouldn't label Harvard as a bad team. Its two Ivy losses are to Yale (on the road) and Princeton. They beat Michigan in Ann Arbor and just lost a close game to Virginia on the road. I saw them play at Yale last month and they have an explosive offense. Based upon our poor defense this season, they could beat us in another high-scoring game.

Yes, Harvard is the team that could make us a 4-2 Ivy team. And you need a strong arm to land fish on the playing surface.

billhoward
Thinking about Cornell's chances for hosting the 2024 Ivy League lacrosse tournament the first weekend in May. It goes to the school with the best record. If there's a tie, it goes to the team with the best combined record against the others tied for first. So that one-goal Cornell loss to Penn is an issue. With Ivy 3 games left for Penn, Yale, Princeton and Cornell, 4 left for Harvard, Dartmouth and Brown, the league as of March 31 stands:

Team      W-L   Ivy Games To Play
                Apr 6    Apr 13     Apr 20     Apr 27 
Penn      3-0   @Yale    Harvard    @Princeton 
Yale      2-1   Penn     @Dartmouth             Princeton
Princeton 2-1            Brown      Penn        @Yale
Cornell   2-1   Brown               Harvard     @Dartmouth 
Harvard   0-2   Dart     @Penn      @Cornell    Brown
Dartmouth 0-2   @Harv    Yale       @Brown      Cornell
Brown     0-2   @Cornell Princeton  Dartmouth   @Harvard

Penn has the toughest Ivy schedule: Yale and Princeton on the road bookending a home game against Harvard (0-2 Ivy but 6-3 overall). Cornell has the easiest: the three 0-2 teams. If Yale or Princeton (or Harvard?) beats Penn, the likely multi-way tie favors Cornell. All four are 10-15 in the polls; on RPI Cornell is #7 (Syracuse game included) and PYP are 10-15 (Harvard is 17).

Penn has beaten Duke, Delaware and North Carolina but lost 12-7 to St. Joseph's and only beat Dartmouth by 3. After which they won the 2-OT Cornell game.

Good scenario for Cornell: Cornell wins out in the Ivies. Yale or Princeton beats Penn. Or both. Penn finishes with 2 or 3 losses, Cornell wins the H2H with Yale or Princeton, hosts the tournament.

Bad scenario for Cornell:
* Cornell wins out but so does Penn, the winner of the Princeton-Yale finale loses one other game, Penn wins the H2H.
* Cornell loses a second Ivy game. Unthinkable when the last 3 IL games are against the worst three Ivy teams. But ...
We need for Penn to lose a second game or there to be more than a Penn-Cornell one-loss tie for first.
I believe those are the scenarios.


The 2024 rules in full. The key parts here:

The Ivy League
Men's Lacrosse Tournament Tiebreakers
[updated per coach group decision prior to 2023 season]

1. In the case of two-way ties between teams in the final standings, the higher seed will be determined on the basis of head-to-head competition.

2. In the case of a multiple ties (more than two teams with the same record), the following procedure will be used:
The highest seed will go to the team with the best cumulative record against all other teams tied at that spot. (If multiple teams are tied with the same record, the tie between those teams will be broken on the basis of cumulative record against each other)
Once a highest seed(s) (amongst the tied teams) is determined, the initial tie is broken. The tie between the remaining teams will be determined on the basis of cumulative record against all other remaining teams tied at that spot.
This procedure will be repeated until all possible ties are broken. (If there are remaining unbroken ties within the group, the remaining tied teams move on to step 3.)

3. In the case of a multiple team tie that cannot be broken on the basis of review of cumulative record:
The highest seed will go to the team that has beaten the highest seeded team outside of the tie and continuing through the full league standings (If multiple teams have beaten the highest seeded team outside of the tie, the tie between those teams will be broken on the basis of cumulative record against each other).
Once a highest seed(s) (amongst the tied teams) is determined, the initial tie is broken. The tie between the remaining teams shall be determined on the basis of cumulative record against all other remaining teams tied at that spot.
This procedure will be completed until all possible ties are broken. (If there remaining unbroken ties within the group, the remaining tied teams move on to step 4.) ...

I think you need to include:


4. If a tie still persists, add the goals for and against in the games between the tied teams. The team (s) with the greatest goal differential gets highest seed (6-goal maximum differential per game). (If a tie persists in which multiple teams have the same greatest goal differentials, the tie between those teams will be broken on the basis of cumulative record against each other). Once a highest seed (amongst the tied teams) is determined, the remaining seeds will be determined on the basis of cumulative record against each other.


Because if Yale beats Penn and Cornell/Yale/Penn all finish 5-1 in the Ivies, this will be the rule that is needed...
So Cornell would need a Yale win by 5 or fewer goals to win on this criterion.


Also, UNC beat Penn

Just win.

nah. Time to start rooting for Penn to keep it close, currently they are down 12-8 with 7 minutes left

nshapiro
nah. Time to start rooting for Penn to keep it close, currently they are down 12-8 with 7 minutes left

12-9 final

And I believe that winning the last two Ivy league games gets Cornell #1 seed in the tournament

nshapiro
And I believe that winning the last two Ivy league games gets Cornell #1 seed in the tournament

In a scenario where Penn and Cornell finish at 1 loss, everyone else has 2 losses, Cornell loses the H2H. Among the one-loss teams, Yale or Princeton will have one more loss on the final weekend (because they play each other). Ditto Penn or Princeton the weekend before, same reason. I believe the just-win-out scenario for Cornell works only if Penn loses one more Ivy game, hosting Harvard next weekend or at Princeton April 20.

Ivy lax standings 4/6/24 before after Harvard plays (likely beats) Dartmouth. Overall, the top five teams all have 7 wins overall.

billhoward

nshapiro
And I believe that winning the last two Ivy league games gets Cornell #1 seed in the tournament

In a scenario where Penn and Cornell finish at 1 loss, everyone else has 2 losses, Cornell loses the H2H. Among the one-loss teams, Yale or Princeton will have one more loss on the final weekend (because they play each other). Ditto Penn or Princeton the weekend before, same reason. I believe the just-win-out scenario for Cornell works only if Penn loses one more Ivy game, hosting Harvard next weekend or at Princeton April 20.

Ivy lax standings 4/6/24 before after Harvard plays (likely beats) Dartmouth. Overall, the top five teams all have 7 wins overall.

True….
Unless Cornell Penn and Yale all win out, Cornell would win the tie break

nshapiro

billhoward

nshapiro
And I believe that winning the last two Ivy league games gets Cornell #1 seed in the tournament

In a scenario where Penn and Cornell finish at 1 loss, everyone else has 2 losses, Cornell loses the H2H. Among the one-loss teams, Yale or Princeton will have one more loss on the final weekend (because they play each other). Ditto Penn or Princeton the weekend before, same reason. I believe the just-win-out scenario for Cornell works only if Penn loses one more Ivy game, hosting Harvard next weekend or at Princeton April 20.

Ivy lax standings 4/6/24 before after Harvard plays (likely beats) Dartmouth. Overall, the top five teams all have 7 wins overall.

True….
Unless Cornell Penn and Yale all win out, Cornell would win the tie break

Team      W-L   Ivy Games To Play
                Apr 13     Apr 20     Apr 27 
Penn      3-1   Harvard    @Princeton 
Yale      3-1   @Dartmouth             Princeton
Cornell   3-1              Harvard     @Dartmouth 
Princeton 2-1   Brown      Penn        @Yale

nshapiro is right: Penn, Cornell and Yale winning out is good for us. We lose H2H with Penn, win H2H with Yale and win the three way tie based on goal differential among three teams that are 1-1 against each other and have beaten whoever is in 4th place. We are +2, Yale is at 0 and Penn is -2.

One last thought for completeness. If both Cornell and Princeton win out, we win the H2H with Princeton.

Jeff Hopkins '82
One last thought for completeness. If both Cornell and Princeton win out, we win the H2H with Princeton.

Princeton winning out means they beat Penn 4/20 and Yale 4/27.

billhoward

Jeff Hopkins '82
One last thought for completeness. If both Cornell and Princeton win out, we win the H2H with Princeton.

Princeton winning out means they beat Penn 4/20 and Yale 4/27.

Right, but we'd both have have one loss, which means we win the tie-breaker.

Just a different tie scenario to be considered.

Wish I'd taking more courses on statistics and probabilities. I wish we'd gotten the OT goal against Penn and then it'd be simple. I wish I was drinking buddies with Nate Silver. All roads not taken.

Not much this weekend to affect the outcome of the Ivy race with three weekends of play left. Yale, Cornell, Penn, all 3-1 Ivy, Princeton 2-1.

One game with the outcome not clear:
* 16 Harvard at 14 Penn, 1 pm
Two games with the visiting teams likely to win:
* 7 Yale at 59 Dartmouth 3:30 pm
* 12 Princeton at 40 Brown, 3:30 pm
Non-league game Sunday
* 10 Cornell - 1 Notre Dame at LIU's stadium, 12:30 pm

We want Harvard to beat Penn. If Cornell then beats Harvard and Dartmouth, Cornell will host the ILT no matter what else happens.

Harvard leads Penn 9-7 at the half.

Penn 13, Harvard 12 4:18 remaining in Q4

ugarte
Penn 13, Harvard 12 4:18 remaining in Q4

14-12 final minute, Penn ball

15-12 Penn final. They had possession for almost all of the final 4 minutes and made a save on Harvard's one decent shot.

Penn 15, Harvard 12. Harvard ran up a 9-6 lead before the half, Penn ran off 6 straight, game tied at 12, Harvard missed a couple chances, Penn got up 14-12, Harvard messed up a clear, got a miracle empty-net save by a defender, failed to capitalize when the Penn goalie dropped the ball on a clear, Penn added a final goal on a long-stick shot from its own 25 yard line.

[aside: Host Dartmouth up on Yale 7-1 in the first period, 10-6 in the second. If it holds: That should trigger an automatic urine test. Okay, 7-4. It doesn't hold: Yale 15-12 and final is 20-13. Brown built up a nice lead on Princeton, Tigers tied it at 12 halfway through the fourth, Brown went up 13-12, goes up 14-12 with a minute left except Brown coach calls a timeout a moment before the shot. (Probably to burn the last 42 seconds off the shot clock. Last second Brown saves gives them a 13-12 win.)]

The save that almost kept Harvard in the game with about a minute left:

That is one of the all-time great saves.

Princeton getting upset 13-12 by Brown Saturday (4/13) reduces the number of ways Cornell gets the 1-seed in the ILT. The one-loss teams are now Yale, Penn (which gave Cornell its loss) and Cornell, but not Princeton now at 2 losses nor Harvard at 3 losses (but 7-4 overall, suggesting they're tough for Cornell to beat). We can't count on help from Princeton in a multi-way one-loss tie at the top. Right now we win a one-loss H2H finish with Yale-Penn-Cornell or Yale-Cornell but not Penn-Cornell.

4/13 & 4/14 Ivy results:
Penn 15, Harvard 14
Yale 20, Dartmouth 13
Brown 13, Princeton 12

Penn and Yale each have a final Ivy game against Princeton: Penn away on 4/20, Yale home on 4/27.

win 1 and just make the final 4. Then hope for 2 to get the #1 seed

Looking good for Cornell to win the regular season title, alone or tied with Yale, and as a result host the Ivy League tournament, semifinal games Friday May 3, title game Sunday (no third-place game). Why:

* Cornell and Yale lead the league at 4-1, Cornell holds the tiebreaker to host the ILT, based on H2H (C18-Y15).
* Cornell finishes against the only winless Ivy team, at Dartmouth. Pretty likely win.
* Yale hosts Princeton in its finale, should be a close game. If Yale loses and Cornell wins, Cornell wins the RS title alone.

Ivy Standings Heading Into the Final Week
TEAM        W  L  4/27 Game    Ivy Wins over]
Yale*       4  1  Princeton    Harvard, Brown, Penn, Dartmouth   
Cornell*    4  1  @Dartmouth   Princeton, Yale, Brown, Harvard 
Penn*       4  2  ----         Brown, Dartmouth, Cornell, Harvard  
Princeton** 3  2  @Yale        Harvard, Dartmouth, Penn
Brown**     2  3  @Harvard     Princeton, Dartmouth 
Harvard     1  4  Brown 
Dartmouth   0  5  Cornell
* clinched playoff spot  |  ** could make playoff

Brown I believe has a shot at the final playoff spot if Brown beats Harvard and Yale beats Princeton, then both finish 3-3 and Brown wins the H2H comparison.

[Edit add confirming Cornell controls its road to the Ivy RS title and 1-seed for the tourament:]

Inside Lacrosse
Princeton gets in with a victory next week against Yale or with a Harvard win over Brown. Cornell, winners vs. Harvard, has the inside track to host because of its head-to-head tiebreaker over Yale. If the Big Red beat Dartmouth, they are the Ivy League regular season champions and will host the tournament. [Link (scroll way down past Princeton-Harvard game story): [www.insidelacrosse.com]]

whats a 4 way tie look like?

upprdeck
whats a 4 way tie look like?

A mess?

We'd have a 2 wins against the top 4 (Princeton, Yale)
Yale would have 1 win against the top 4 (Penn)
Penn would have 1 win against the top 4 (us)
Princeton would have 2 wins against the top 4 (Penn, Yale)

I'm not 100% sure how they'd decide it, but if they eliminate the two 1-win teams, and then compare the H2H of the two 2-win teams, we win that H2H. But I don't know if that's how they'd break the ties.

upprdeck
whats a 4 way tie look like?

It looks unlikely in the extreme. As a practical matter, Cornell ain't gonna lose to 0-5 Dartmouth.

But should that happen, I believe Cornell would be the 1-seed. The first tie-breaker is how many wins each team has against the others tied for the same playoff seed. The only four-way would be Cornell-Yale-Penn-Princeton. The four-way would become possible by Princeton beating Yale (could happen), Cornell losing to Dartmouth (this would happen in a Disney kids-sports-movie-world where the coach also says, "You're right, the rules don't say a labrador retriever can't take faceoffs" ), and Penn already with its Ivy season finished.
* Yale: 1 win against the other tied teams, over Penn
* Cornell: 2 wins, over Princeton and Yale
* Penn: 1 win, over Cornell
* Princeton: 2 wins, over Penn and Yale, tieing with Cornell's 2 wins ...
... but the next tiebreaker step is H2H and Cornell won that future H2 when long pole Matt Dooley chugged upfield and buried a shot at 14:59 of the fourth to break that 14-14 tie in the season opener at Princeton.


the Ivy League says:

Men's Lacrosse Tournament Tiebreakers
Men's Lacrosse Tournament Tiebreakers
[updated per coach group decision prior to 2023 season]

1. In the case of two-way ties between teams in the final standings, the higher seed will be determined on the basis of head-to-head competition.

2. In the case of a multiple ties (more than two teams with the same record), the following procedure will be used:
The highest seed will go to the team with the best cumulative record against all other teams tied at that spot. (If multiple teams are tied with the same record, the tie between those teams will be broken on the basis of cumulative record against each other)
Once a highest seed(s) (amongst the tied teams) is determined, the initial tie is broken. The tie between the remaining teams will be determined on the basis of cumulative record against all other remaining teams tied at that spot.
This procedure will be repeated until all possible ties are broken. (If there are remaining unbroken ties within the group, the remaining tied teams move on to step 3.)

3. In the case of a multiple team tie that cannot be broken on the basis of review of cumulative record:
The highest seed will go to the team that has beaten the highest seeded team outside of the tie and continuing through the full league standings (If multiple teams have beaten the highest seeded team outside of the tie, the tie between those teams will be broken on the basis of cumulative record against each other).
Once a highest seed(s) (amongst the tied teams) is determined, the initial tie is broken. The tie between the remaining teams shall be determined on the basis of cumulative record against all other remaining teams tied at that spot.
This procedure will be completed until all possible ties are broken. (If there remaining unbroken ties within the group, the remaining tied teams move on to step 4.)

Continues: [ivyleague.com].

I believe that's how it works.

I am intrigued by the possibility of Princeton losing at Yale and Brown beating Harvard. In that case, Harvard and Brown will both finish 3-3 and the H2H tiebreaker goes to the Bruins. Meaning the opening round would be:
Host: Cornell
Games: Cornell vs. Brown
Yale vs. Penn
Based on the 2023 tournament, the top-seed plays the early game. At neutral-site Columbia, they were played at 6 and 8:30 Friday, title game 12 noon Sunday.

Whaddya know. I guess right!

billhoward

upprdeck
whats a 4 way tie look like?

It looks unlikely in the extreme. As a practical matter, Cornell ain't gonna lose to 0-5 Dartmouth.

C’mon, man.

BearLover

billhoward

upprdeck
whats a 4 way tie look like?

It looks unlikely in the extreme. As a practical matter, Cornell ain't gonna lose to 0-5 Dartmouth.

C’mon, man.

Big Green feels a little bit like a "trap" game. I hope we don't see another really slow start.

It would be a disappointing loss for sure. The NCAA is not a lock, and a bad loss would really hurt if they don't win the IVY.

Dart lost to the top teams by 7-10-3 and Harvard by 6 brown by 3.

upprdeck
It would be a disappointing loss for sure. The NCAA is not a lock, and a bad loss would really hurt if they don't win the IVY.

Dart lost to the top teams by 7-10-3 and Harvard by 6 brown by 3.

Led Yale 7-1; led Brown through much of game.

Still remember the Dartmouth game at Foxborough in 2010 when a Dartmouth goalie named Fergus Campbell knocked off a 7-1 Cornell team 8-6 with 16 saves. There's also the game referenced above, two years ago in Hanover, when it took a Billy Coyle goal with three minutes left to win it, 8-7. That Cornell team was a national finalist. So...you never know.

upprdeck
It would be a disappointing loss for sure. The NCAA is not a lock...

Take solace in the soothing thought of a great Canadian/American sportswriter. Ignore Eccesiastes 9:11.

Hugh Keough, 1864-1912

"The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong; but that is the best way to bet,"

(Grantland Rice used the line also, and credits Keough.)

RPI after weekend of 4/21 (ie Cornell-Harvard et al) to see how close the Ivy final weekend's games might be if RPI is an indicator:

Lax RPI going into final weekend of Ivy play
(1. Duke
(2. Notre Dame) 
...
 8. Cornell  (one place ahead of Penn State) 
10. Yale
12. Penn   
15. Princeton    
19. Harvard 
38. Brown 
60. Dartmouth (of 76 ranked teams)

per [lacrossereference.com]

It's going to be tight if we don't win the first playoff game.

If we were to lose to Penn we would have 2 losses to them.

Win the IVY and we could get to 5-6 type seed.

This schedule 10 days in advance of the Ivy League Lacrosse Tournament has the 2-3 seeds playing the early game at 6 pm, the 1-4 seeds playing at 8:30 pm, then the title game at 1 pm. When it was neutral-site last year, I believe the 1-seed got the early game. Ignore that the graphic has all 3 games Sunday May 5. It should be semifinals Friday, day off Saturday, title game Sunday. Games on ESPNU.

billhoward
This schedule 10 days in advance of the Ivy League Lacrosse Tournament has the 2-3 seeds playing the early game at 6 pm, the 1-4 seeds playing at 8:30 pm, then the title game at 1 pm. When it was neutral-site last year, I believe the 1-seed got the early game. Ignore that the graphic has all 3 games Sunday May 5. It should be semifinals Friday, day off Saturday, title game Sunday. Games on ESPNU.

Everything on May 5th?

mike1960

billhoward
This schedule 10 days in advance of the Ivy League Lacrosse Tournament has the 2-3 seeds playing the early game at 6 pm, the 1-4 seeds playing at 8:30 pm, then the title game at 1 pm. When it was neutral-site last year, I believe the 1-seed got the early game. Ignore that the graphic has all 3 games Sunday May 5. It should be semifinals Friday, day off Saturday, title game Sunday. Games on ESPNU.

Everything on May 5th?

Read Bill's posting.

I think, ah, the Ivy League was in a deadline crush, say, and somebody didn't proofread the sketch that became the graphic. Everybody, everywhere, doing online stuff feels rushed. But they also know, if they make a mistake, they can correct later that day, or tomorrow. In print, you're kind stuck, except you run a correction in a future issue. I'm sure it's two semifinal games Friday, title game Sunday. The order of semifinal games (Friday) has changed from the 1-seed going early-game to second-game, the opposite of 2023, and the Sunday start time moved from noon to 1 pm. I'm using 2023 info from the game box scores.

This year, Friday games are 6 and 8:30. When the day's temp will reach the high 70s in the afternoon. Won't be as nice Sunday, rain not (yet) forecast.

2023 it was:
Neutral site, Columbia
Games 6 pm (1-4 matchup) and 8:30 Friday, 12 noon Sunday
Cornell was the 1-seed, lost 22-15 to Yale

2022, at 1-seed, Brown
Games 6 pm and 8:30 (1-4 matchup), 12 noon Sunday
Cornell was the 2-seed, lost 14-11 to Yale

Getting out of a lAX game at 1030-1100 isnt fun. Good news is the crowd wont be that big that time of night.

upprdeck
Getting out of a lAX game at 1030-1100 isnt fun. Good news is the crowd wont be that big that time of night.

Not so great for the winner of the late game, either.

Al DeFlorio

upprdeck
Getting out of a lAX game at 1030-1100 isnt fun. Good news is the crowd wont be that big that time of night.

Not so great for the winner of the late game, either.

Not like NCAA hockey when one final-four semifinal was Thursday, one Friday, and the Friday winner has a huge disadvantage.

I like the late start on a Friday, that way I’ll be able to go to both games.

billhoward
This year, Friday games are 6 and 8:30. When the day's temp will reach the high 70s in the afternoon. Won't be as nice Sunday, rain not (yet) forecast.

I don't like that 1 v 4 is the late game and 2 v 3 is early. In the Northeast in early May temperatures usually are very comfortable at 6 PM. And the late start is a disadvantage when teams are evenly matched and young athletes need their rest.

Of course, the #1 team is the home team and likely the biggest attraction in the bunch. So, attendance may be greater with the late start. But since when does money trump fairness?

This was just coincidence ... your last sentence included Money, Trump and Fairness ?

I'd like to believe any college lacrosse player whether just turned 18 or maybe 22 or 23, no one is so young or so old a game at 6pm vs. 8:30pm is going to affect his abilities.

I get the advantage of the ECAC 1-seed at Lake Placid wanting the 4 pm semifinal game for an extra 3 hours of rest for a game 24 hours later, and also, their game over and won (except Quinnipiac didn't), they can sit and watch the style of play of their Saturday night opponents.

If Cornell as host had the choice (?), I might want the later game so more fans can drive up from metro New York to watch. But so could Yale, Princeton or Penn fans.

billhoward
This was just coincidence ... your last sentence included Money, Trump and Fairness ?

I'd like to believe any college lacrosse player whether just turned 18 or maybe 22 or 23, no one is so young or so old a game at 6pm vs. 8:30pm is going to affect his abilities.

I get the advantage of the ECAC 1-seed at Lake Placid wanting the 4 pm semifinal game for an extra 3 hours of rest for a game 24 hours later, and also, their game over and won (except Quinnipiac didn't), they can sit and watch the style of play of their Saturday night opponents.

If Cornell as host had the choice (?), I might want the later game so more fans can drive up from metro New York to watch. But so could Yale, Princeton or Penn fans.

Do we think there will be a sig attendance jump from NYC for a late night game? if you are making the drive you need to give yourself 4-5 hrs no matter when it starts .

upprdeck
Do we think there will be a sig attendance jump from NYC for a late night game? if you are making the drive you need to give yourself 4-5 hrs no matter when it starts .

I'm making this up as I go along: Looking for all possible reasons why the school or the league chose the 1-seed in the late game not early game. And why it may have gone the other way.
Me, I would have chosen early game:
* Weather is nicer at 6pm. Turns out it may still be in the upper 60s at 8:30 But if the game played in the weather of Saturday -- rainy, temps probably in the 50s by dark -- it'd be miserable for the fans and players.
* 1-seed plays early game, they get to see Yale-Princeton one more time.
* More Cornell students might to the early game and then go find a party.

last year they played the same schedule in Columbia

Cornell/yale game one had 2100
penn/prin game 2 had 1400

If you wanted the best weather temp for both games play at 4/7

It should be ok this week though, but still once the sun goes down it wont feel as nice sitting out there until 11.

Time of day doesn't matter all that much. This is May not March 3. Lacrosse is still playable when temps are in the 40s. Way more important is that it's not in New Haven or Princeton or Philadelphia. At Columbia was okay because so many alumni are in the metro NY area.

Timing matters not at all to the players other than playing a game and getting home after midnight even for the Cornell kids

But for the fans its not nearly as enjoyable.

Do most people take kids to movies that start at 9pm?

If hockey started all the home games at 9pm you would see a drop in attendance as well.

now this could all be TV driven as well with the time slot.

Good point, taking kids or grandkids < middle-school age to an 8:30 game.

Conversely if your kid plays a youth / HS spring sport, odds are greater it was an afternoon game. Or will be a Saturday game and hopefully not in the morning. Assuming you're in the Syracuse-Ithaca-Rochester area, a reasonable ride home.

I do think about parents / grandparents taking kids to Lynah, where the language gets more raW over time and assuming the kids can actually make out the words:

See ya, you goon --> See ya, asshole

Rough 'em up, rough 'em up --> fuck 'em up.

BTW, last year Columbia offered $5/pp/game group seating any age if you had a group of 20 or more. Let's see if this is an Ivy rule or site by site. No group seating for the 2022 tournament at Brown.

I'm guessing here, but I think the #1 seed playing the late game is a League decision to mitigate the top seed's home-field advantage. When the ILT was at a neutral site, the #1 seed got the advantage of playing the early game. But prior to the switch to neutral NYC, the #1 seed always played the late game.

CU77
I'm guessing here, but I think the #1 seed playing the late game is a League decision to mitigate the top seed's home-field advantage. When the ILT was at a neutral site, the #1 seed got the advantage of playing the early game. But prior to the switch to neutral NYC, the #1 seed always played the late game.

But I would think one of the benefits of earning the #1 seed would be to be able to play the early game. No reason that advantage should be mitigated.

Heh! That actually makes sense: play the later game, take a little off the advantage of playing at home.

Assuming the Ivy League made rational decisions. I was thinking they were thinking more people would turn out for a late game. Or they (ILT wizards) were thinking: More Cornell folk are local when it's in Ithaca, so the late game is no big deal getting home. Whereas the Yale and Princeton people, a lot of them metro NY people, can drive home after the 6pm game, be home by midnight, then the winner's side drives up and back for a Sunday day trip.

billhoward
Heh! That actually makes sense: play the later game, take a little off the advantage of playing at home.

Assuming the Ivy League made rational decisions. I was thinking they were thinking more people would turn out for a late game. Or they (ILT wizards) were thinking: More Cornell folk are local when it's in Ithaca, so the late game is no big deal getting home. Whereas the Yale and Princeton people, a lot of them metro NY people, can drive home after the 6pm game, be home by midnight, then the winner's side drives up and back for a Sunday day trip.

I actually think it's less complicated than this.

Of the 4 teams, the home team is likely to have the highest fan turnout. If the home team is scheduled for the early game, many -- if not most -- of its fans will leave before the second game. However, if the home team is playing the late game, then some of its fans will likely also attend the early game. Therefore, to maximize actual (and paid) attendance, the home team goes last. Add to this the 1/4 & 2/3 pairings, and you have 2 vs 3 followed by 1 vs 4. Q.E.D.

The idea that the late game has greater attendance because it gives people more time to drive doesn't seem credible. According to Google Maps, the university closest to Ithaca is Penn, which is 3h 43m away. With the game starting at 8:30, one would have to leave Philadelphia by 4:00 to be on time. If one's going to take off Friday at 4:00, they might as well take off at noon. Besides, real lacrosse fans who would drive this far (228 mi.) would take the day off in order to arrive in time to check into their hotel and have dinner before the first game.

When the games were played "at" Columbia, the subway from my son's house in Brooklyn took 1h 15m. Driving in, out, & around NYC is no picnic. This make me think most people who attended the games either lived in the Greater New York area or decided to spend the weekend in NYC, which is much better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick.

If driving time were the main consideration, the league would pick a geographically central point, like Yale, or perhaps a more neutral-but-geographically central location, like Albany or Poughkeepsie. Or, maybe someplace that's a lacrosse hotbed, like Massapequa.

Interestingly, the other 3 teams in this year's ILT are the quickest drives to Cornell: Pn - 3:43, Pr - 3:52, Y - 4:28. Compare to H - 5:11, D - 5:14, & B - 5:17.

I think a few other things could attract more people and make the event more successful. At Columbia the food sucked, especially considering the city where it's located. One of the Halal food booths from lower Manhattan, or even knishes on a grill, would have made the event more enjoyable.

Next weekend, maybe have a food truck or two in a parking lot near the Kopf. Also, starting early enough to have pregame tailgating would add a lot. Adding more sports or cultural events for Saturday (OK, it's Finals, so maybe not the Dead; but how about a group like Lake St. Dive or Donna the Buffalo?) would be a great way to make people want to spend the weekend in Ithaca in early May.

The problem with such things is that with the current system we don't know where the ILT will be until as late as the week before. But my bigger point of making the weekend into more than just 3 lacrosse games (of which most fans will be interested in only 2 or 1) could make the ILT a big party rather than just an athletic event. If the league could pull this off, more people will attend the games, and they'll have a great time all weekend.

So we think they over think the HF advantage for lax is too much so force the home team to play late at night and have less time after the time to get treatment/recover if they win?

Or we think they are worried about the 100 people driving 4 hrs to the game for one of the other 3 teams?

Interesting wrinkle in the MAAC tournament. They play a six team tournament with two byes. The top remaining semifinalist hosts championship weekend. BUT that team must be a full MAAC member. So 3 seeded Manhattan (who beat Q in a play in) will host this weekend even though Sacred Heart and LIU are seeded 1 and 2 because it's the highest full MAAC team.

Go forth and overthink who should get the early game there.

upprdeck
So we think they over think the HF advantage for lax is too much so force the home team to play late at night and have less time after the time to get treatment/recover if they win?

Or we think they are worried about the 100 people driving 4 hrs to the game for one of the other 3 teams?

Putting my money on league wanting home team in late game to keep people in stands.

How does that even matter. If you are a cornell local you can pay $20 for 3 games or $15 for friday or $10 for Sunday

if you buy the full package they get the money either way even if you only go to one game.

Most locals will show up for Cornell and some diehards for both.

How many does Yale/Princ bring on this trip on a Friday ? a 100?

It will be warm which will help. Then you get a t-storm delay and now the late game gets over at midnight.

4/7 made more sense to get the biggest crowd and the best of the sun and weather.

upprdeck
How does that even matter. If you are a cornell local you can pay $20 for 3 games or $15 for friday or $10 for Sunday

if you buy the full package they get the money either way even if you only go to one game.

Most locals will show up for Cornell and some diehards for both.

How many does Yale/Princ bring on this trip on a Friday ? a 100?

It will be warm which will help. Then you get a t-storm delay and now the late game gets over at midnight.

4/7 made more sense to get the biggest crowd and the best of the sun and weather.

4/7 or 1/4 would be better. More butts on seats looks better for both games. I'm guessing that's why they put #1 in late game. I'd rather see C play early, but league didn't ask my opinion..

Polls after games of April 27-28, 2024. Cornell remains at 8 in the Media/USILA poll. Syracuse is up to #3.

Media / Inside Lacrosse 4/29/24 Week 12
#  Team	                Points	Prev
1  Notre Dame (10 - 1)	460(23)	1
2  Johns Hopkins (10-3)	430	3 
3  Syracuse (11 - 4)	406	4 
4  Denver (11 - 2)	363	6 
5  Virginia (10 - 4)	346	5
6  Duke (11 - 4)	343	2 
7  Maryland (8 - 4)	312	7
8  Cornell (9 - 4)	306	8
9  Penn State (10 - 3)	293	10 
10 Georgetown (10 - 3)	268	11 
11 Army (11 - 2)	220	12 
12 Princeton (9 - 4)	212	13 
13 Yale (11 - 3)	199	9 
14 St Joseph's (10 - 3)	147	16 
15 Towson (11 - 3)	141	15
16 Penn (8 - 5)	        121	17 
17 Michigan (8 - 6)	81	19 
18 Richmond (9 - 5)	68	14 
19 Delaware (8 - 4)	36	18 
20 Boston U (8 - 6)	24	-- 
Receiving Votes: Harvard, Colgate, North Carolina, Jacksonville, UAlbany, Lehigh, Loyola, Utah, Sacred Heart, High Point

Quint Kessenich on LaxAllStars has it:

1  ND
2  Hopkins
3  Syracuse 
4  Duke
5  Virginia 
6  Penn State 
7  Denver
8  Cornell (unchanged)
9  Maryland
10 Georgetown
11 Army
12 Princeton (was 14)
13 Yale (was 11)
14 Penn  (was 15)
15 Towson
16 St. Joseph's 
17 Delaware
18 Richmond
19 Michigan
20 BU

Kessinich on Cornell
We are going to Ithaca! Cotter, Carc and I will be at Cornell (9-4) for the Ivy League tournament on Friday night and Sunday at 1pm. (ESPNU)

“Hardhat 21” took care of business at Dartmouth 15-10 to wrap up their regular season. Cornell’s offense was led by senior CJ Kirst who had seven points while freshman Ryan Goldstein added five points. Goalie Wyatt Knust, suddenly on fire, made 18 stops.

For my money, Pat Kavanagh and CJ Kirst sit atop the Tewaaraton race entering May. The pack chasing this duo includes Matt Brandau, Liam Entenmann, Evan Plunkett, Brennan O’Neil and Connor Shellenberger. This award takes care of itself and parallels a team’s climb to Philadelphia.
CJ Kirst averages 3.6 goals per game.

billhoward
Polls after games of April 27-28, 2024. Cornell remains at 8 in the Media/USILA poll. Syracuse is up to #3.

Media / Inside Lacrosse 4/29/24 Week 12
#  Team	                Points	Prev
1  Notre Dame (10 - 1)	460(23)	1
2  Johns Hopkins (10-3)	430	3 
3  Syracuse (11 - 4)	406	4 
4  Denver (11 - 2)	363	6 
5  Virginia (10 - 4)	346	5
6  Duke (11 - 4)	343	2 
7  Maryland (8 - 4)	312	7
8  Cornell (9 - 4)	306	8
9  Penn State (10 - 3)	293	10 
10 Georgetown (10 - 3)	268	11 
11 Army (11 - 2)	220	12 
12 Princeton (9 - 4)	212	13 
13 Yale (11 - 3)	199	9 
14 St Joseph's (10 - 3)	147	16 
15 Towson (11 - 3)	141	15
16 Penn (8 - 5)	        121	17 
17 Michigan (8 - 6)	81	19 
18 Richmond (9 - 5)	68	14 
19 Delaware (8 - 4)	36	18 
20 Boston U (8 - 6)	24	-- 
Receiving Votes: Harvard, Colgate, North Carolina, Jacksonville, UAlbany, Lehigh, Loyola, Utah, Sacred Heart, High Point

Quint Kessenich on LaxAllStars has it:

1  ND
2  Hopkins
3  Syracuse 
4  Duke
5  Virginia 
6  Penn State 
7  Denver
8  Cornell (unchanged)
9  Maryland
10 Georgetown
11 Army
12 Princeton (was 14)
13 Yale (was 11)
14 Penn  (was 15)
15 Towson
16 St. Joseph's 
17 Delaware
18 Richmond
19 Michigan
20 BU

Kessinich on Cornell
We are going to Ithaca! Cotter, Carc and I will be at Cornell (9-4) for the Ivy League tournament on Friday night and Sunday at 1pm. (ESPNU)

“Hardhat 21” took care of business at Dartmouth 15-10 to wrap up their regular season. Cornell’s offense was led by senior CJ Kirst who had seven points while freshman Ryan Goldstein added five points. Goalie Wyatt Knust, suddenly on fire, made 18 stops.

For my money, Pat Kavanagh and CJ Kirst sit atop the Tewaaraton race entering May. The pack chasing this duo includes Matt Brandau, Liam Entenmann, Evan Plunkett, Brennan O’Neil and Connor Shellenberger. This award takes care of itself and parallels a team’s climb to Philadelphia.
CJ Kirst averages 3.6 goals per game.

"suddenly on fire"?

"the home team is the headliner, so they get the last spot on the bill" is the simplest explanation.

Swampy


The idea that the late game has greater attendance because it gives people more time to drive doesn't seem credible. According to Google Maps, the university closest to Ithaca is Penn, which is 3h 43m away. With the game starting at 8:30, one would have to leave Philadelphia by 4:00 to be on time. If one's going to take off Friday at 4:00, they might as well take off at noon. Besides, real lacrosse fans who would drive this far (228 mi.) would take the day off in order to arrive in time to check into their hotel and have dinner before the first game.

That time from Philadelphia is a best case scenario when I-76 going to King of Prussia isn't locked with traffic and it doesn't take forever to get to the northeast extension (I-476) where traffic is clear and the speed limit is higher than anywhere in New York. Leaving at 4 PM would mean closer to a 5-hour trip. I doubt many Penn supporters who aren't students actually live in the city, though--they're more likely to be in one of the neighboring county suburbs for reasons I won't get into here.

billhoward

Kessinich on Cornell
We are going to Ithaca! Cotter, Carc and I will be at Cornell (9-4) for the Ivy League tournament on Friday night and Sunday at 1pm. (ESPNU)

“Hardhat 21” took care of business at Dartmouth 15-10 to wrap up their regular season. Cornell’s offense was led by senior CJ Kirst who had seven points while freshman Ryan Goldstein added five points. Goalie Wyatt Knust, suddenly on fire, made 18 stops.

For my money, Pat Kavanagh and CJ Kirst sit atop the Tewaaraton race entering May. The pack chasing this duo includes Matt Brandau, Liam Entenmann, Evan Plunkett, Brennan O’Neil and Connor Shellenberger. This award takes care of itself and parallels a team’s climb to Philadelphia.
CJ Kirst averages 3.6 goals per game.

The thing that bugs me about summarizing Kirst's contribution by average goals per game is that it reduces a multi-dimensional player (and game) to a single point. Kirst does so much more than just score goals: he gets ground balls, he causes turnovers on the ride, etc. Other contestants are also multi-dimensional. So, don't reduce the game or player to a single statistic, as if this were anything but a team game.

... which Kirsch contributions outside Goals/Assists the voters will recognize. One hopes.

Matt Brandau, Yale  45-54--97   3CT  33GB
CJ Kirst, Cornell   45-21--66  16CT  32GB
Pat Kavanagh, ND    19-34--53  10CT  26GB

Quint Kessinich, laxallstars.com 4/29 column
For my money, Pat Kavanagh and CJ Kirst sit atop the Tewaaraton race entering May. The pack chasing this duo includes Matt Brandau, Liam Entenmann, Evan Plunkett, Brennan O’Neil and Connor Shellenberger. This award takes care of itself and parallels a team’s climb to Philadelphia.

billhoward
... which Kirsch contributions outside Goals/Assists the voters will recognize. One hopes.

Matt Brandau, Yale  45-54--97   3CT  33GB
CJ Kirst, Cornell   45-21--66  16CT  32GB
Pat Kavanagh, ND    19-34--53  10CT  26GB

Quint Kessinich, laxallstars.com 4/29 column
For my money, Pat Kavanagh and CJ Kirst sit atop the Tewaaraton race entering May. The pack chasing this duo includes Matt Brandau, Liam Entenmann, Evan Plunkett, Brennan O’Neil and Connor Shellenberger. This award takes care of itself and parallels a team’s climb to Philadelphia.

Yeah! And if you did it on a per-game basis, adjusting for their teams' schedules, ND has played 11 games, Yale 14, and Cornell 13.So, Kav looks a little better, and Brandau, a little worse. Here are some normalized figures:

Brandau, Yale 14 games, per game numbers: 3.2 - 3.9 - 6.9 0.2CT 2.4GB
Kirst, Cornell 13 games, per game numbers: 3.5 - 1.6 - 5.0. 1.2CT. 2.5GB
Kavanagh, ND. 11 games, per game numbers: 1.7 - 3.1 - 4.8. 0.9CT. 2.4GB

Bold = best in category

If you read seeding tea leaves coming out Cornell better beat Penn Friday