WSJ Article 1/27/2010

Article in the WSJ this morning about the importance of the cornell-harvard game this saturday. Nothing we didn't know, but nice to wake up to an article about cornell basketball...

[online.wsj.com]

"I'd like to see a conference tournament," says Cornell coach Steve Donahue. "If you lose a couple of games, you don't have a chance to play for the championship. I don't think that's fair."

I found this to be an odd quote, which makes me wonder if Coach Donahue feels the pressure of expectations.

The regular season is the tournament. It seems much more fair to have the bid go to the winner of a 14-game season than it does to give it to the winner of a one-and-done crapshoot.

A basketball tournament will bring publicity to the Ivy League and (?) add more games. But it benefits the second-best teams. Cornell is most likely to win the most league games this year and be the champ. A Harvard might finish 12-2 to Cornell's 13-1 but then get lucky in a playoff game. I see it happening eventually, as in lacrosse. Has that lacrosse playoff site been determined yet? I hope the league honchos have a short memory of how badly Cornell estimated refreshments consumed at that last NCAA regional in Schoellkopf. And this from Ivy school with a hotel school.

billhoward
Has that lacrosse playoff site been determined yet?

Doesn't the top-seeded team host?

Al DeFlorio

billhoward
Has that lacrosse playoff site been determined yet?

Doesn't the top-seeded team host?

I believe that's the plan.

Jordan 04

"I'd like to see a conference tournament," says Cornell coach Steve Donahue. "If you lose a couple of games, you don't have a chance to play for the championship. I don't think that's fair."

I found this to be an odd quote, which makes me wonder if Coach Donahue feels the pressure of expectations.

I think he is looking past this year. I assume he is confident that he can get the autobid for 2010 and wants a second bite at the apple in 2011 and beyond when the team won't be the favorite for the title every year. It is easy to advocate for a rule change that takes effect after your advantage under the current rules runs out.

I don't see the benefit of a tournament for getting an at-large bid. I think the more likely result of a tournament is that the regular season champion ends up playing a first round road game in the NIT.

Chris '03

Al DeFlorio

billhoward
Has that lacrosse playoff site been determined yet?

Doesn't the top-seeded team host?

I believe that's the plan.

That's right. I think my confusion is who hosts when multiple teams finish with the same league record. Isn't a coin flip up near the top after head-to-head record? Cornell beats Princeton, loses to Harvard; Princeton beats Harvard. Or for the playoffs is it a seeding not a record?

I think your right on the coin flip because in 2007-08 Cornell,Harvard,Dartmouth womens teams all finished with the same record and all the split their season series so they had some kind of a drawing and Cornell got the first round bye to play the winner of Harvard,Dartmouth for the NCAA bid. They played all the games at Columbia.

I dont know what the exact rule is but that seems kind of dumb to flip a coin to get a first round bye.

phillysportsfan
I dont know what the exact rule is but that seems kind of dumb to flip a coin to get a first round bye.

It's dumb, but I believe it's also the way they resolve a three-way tie in MLB. The alternative -- round robin over 3 days and still not assured a clean winner -- is a morass.

Trotsky

phillysportsfan
I dont know what the exact rule is but that seems kind of dumb to flip a coin to get a first round bye.

It's dumb, but I believe it's also the way they resolve a three-way tie in MLB. The alternative -- round robin over 3 days and still not assured a clean winner -- is a morass.

According to wikipedia, MLB now uses a system of ranking based on head to head record for three way ties. If a clear ranking arises from this, the higher "seeded" team gets to choose which position (A, B, or C) they want followed by the next highest seed picking. Finally, the team designated A hosts B in game one and the winner hosts C. If there are ties then the seeding process is done randomly ("drawing lots".

Regardless, with a three way tie you'r pretty much stuck with giving one of the three a bye. A round robin doesn't guarantee breaking the tie. In the case of Ivy basketball where teams only play two games against every other opponent it's pretty likely that a three way tie will involve head to head splits all around.

They could give a first round bye based on average margin of victory within the league but I guess that would encourage running up the score or they could give it based on RPI or Pomeroy or something.

phillysportsfan
I think your right on the coin flip because in 2007-08 Cornell,Harvard,Dartmouth womens teams all finished with the same record and all the split their season series so they had some kind of a drawing and Cornell got the first round bye to play the winner of Harvard,Dartmouth for the NCAA bid. They played all the games at Columbia.

I dont know what the exact rule is but that seems kind of dumb to flip a coin to get a first round bye.

The rules called for a coin flip, but with a lack of three-sided coins on hand they used a drawing involving state quarters. A NY state quarter, NH state quarter, and MA state quarter were placed in a bag and one was drawn out. That lucky Cornell team got the "bye" in the mini-playoff for the NCAA bid.

phillysportsfan
... they could give it based on RPI or Pomeroy or something.

So the team that gets the bye in the conference tie breaker is the one with the tougher non-conference schedule? That's the sort of thing we'd expect from NCAA lacrosse.

phillysportsfan
They could give a first round bye based on average margin of victory within the league but I guess that would encourage running up the score or they could give it based on RPI or Pomeroy or something.

I like the (old?) Big Ten Rose Bowl rule: team that's been waiting the longest wins. I mean, I don't like it this year...

Meanwhile, this week's Sports Illustrated has a huge, glowing article on Harvard and its star point guard, Jeremy Lin. It makes it sound like we're the underdog on Saturday night. In any case, I hope we can taunt him without resulting to racial slurs. According to the article, he was met with racist taunts at every road game last season.

Yeah that SI article was written by a Harvard grad. I would rather be the underdog, let Lin get all the national praise he wants and Ivy player of the year but it is all meaningless without a single Ivy league title.

The game Saturday is already a sellout, should be a great one, hopefully we kill them. The one thing we got going for us is that Lin has not traditionally played very well here, last year he had 8 turnovers 2 years ago he shot 2-8 from the field. Although I think Lin is a better player this year but we have beat Harvard by 20+ the last 2 years at home.

They have come up with some interesting cheers on the basketball forum, definitely like the chant Shop-a-rite or "You went shopping" to Amaker after he had tried to recruit Zach Rosen in a Shop-a-rite before he was supposed to talk to recruits.

Having finally read the article, this is the quote I like:

"It's been addressed," Mr. Amaker says. "I just know we're doing things in the Harvard way and by the Harvard standard."

dbilmes
Meanwhile, this week's Sports Illustrated has a huge, glowing article on Harvard and its star point guard, Jeremy Lin. It makes it sound like we're the underdog on Saturday night. In any case, I hope we can taunt him without resulting to racial slurs. According to the article, he was met with racist taunts at every road game last season.

(Caddyshack) Al Czervik: "I think this place is restricted, Wang. So don't tell 'em you're Jewish. Okay?"

dbilmes
Meanwhile, this week's Sports Illustrated has a huge, glowing article on Harvard and its star point guard, Jeremy Lin. It makes it sound like we're the underdog on Saturday night. In any case, I hope we can taunt him without resulting to racial slurs. According to the article, he was met with racist taunts at every road game last season.

I wonder: Is "token Asian" a racial slur? I remember we used to chant that at Harvard hockey games because for a long period of time there, they had exactly one Asian on their team (Aaron Kim from 1999-2000 to 2002-03, Kevin Du from 2003-04 to 2006-07) and, well, it was kind of funny, especially given the timing of Du's recruitment right after Kim's graduation. I don't think anyone meant anything bad by it (it's not like we were yelling "Asians can't play hockey" ) but I guess it could theoretically be taken as such.

Any chance this weekend's game will be on any sort of TV anywhere?

French Rage
Any chance this weekend's game will be on any sort of TV anywhere?

The Harvard game should be on TV but I dont think it is anywhere. With all the SI, WSJ, and ESPN articles you think some network such as ESPNU would pick up this game. Andy Katz of ESPN even put the game Saturday as a place to be.

Time Warner should have put this game on TV instead of the Columbia game. I guess there is always Redcast if you are not in Ithaca.

phillysportsfan

French Rage
Any chance this weekend's game will be on any sort of TV anywhere?

The Harvard game should be on TV but I dont think it is anywhere. With all the SI, WSJ, and ESPN articles you think some network such as ESPNU would pick up this game. Andy Katz of ESPN even put the game Saturday as a place to be.

Time Warner should have put this game on TV instead of the Columbia game. I guess there is always Redcast if you are not in Ithaca.

They have the Clk @ 'gate hockey game. I believe Colgate pays for this.

Here an article from the USA today

[www.usatoday.com]

Also Pete Thamel of the NY Times who I think posted the original articles on Amaker's questionable recruiting really attacking the author of the SI article on Harvard over Twitter:
[twitter.com]

Thamel says:
The difference is my story explains how the system works. Yours celebrates without the showing the sausage making.
No need to debate. You gave a warm fuzzy hug to your alma mater. I am reminding folks of the reality. Pretty simple
SI breaks out its pom poms for Harvard, glosses lowering academic standards and skirting NCAA rules.

Kornheiser just hyped HU-CU on PTI as the most intriguing CBB game this weekend, and then started the whole "if Cornell doesn't get the auto-bid, they should go at-large" train moving. Wilbon picked his Northwestern game, continuing the proud homer tradition that PTI has.

RichH
Kornheiser just hyped HU-CU on PTI as the most intriguing CBB game this weekend, and then started the whole "if Cornell doesn't get the auto-bid, they should go at-large" train moving. Wilbon picked his Northwestern game, continuing the proud homer tradition that PTI has.

On his radio show this morning, his producer talked briefly about how he would have liked to have booked Tommy Amaker on the show,but didn't pursue it for a couple of reasons (namely, potential timing difficulties given their game tonight as well as Amaker's likely hesitancy to discuss tomorrow night's Cornell game with the Columbia game up first).

NPR actually mentioned the H-C game and the surprising strength of Ivy basketball. They also mentioned that Cornell is usually better known for hockey, and talked about Penn as the traditional Ivy power. Somehow they managed not to say the word "Princeton" at any point in the piece.

dbilmes
Meanwhile, this week's Sports Illustrated has a huge, glowing article on Harvard and its star point guard, Jeremy Lin. It makes it sound like we're the underdog on Saturday night. In any case, I hope we can taunt him without resulting to racial slurs. According to the article, he was met with racist taunts at every road game last season.

Time magazine article on this topic: [www.time.com]

In case anyone wasn't aware, free home audio for the bball game at: [wvbr.com], assuming it doesn't cut out at the start of the game.

RichH
Kornheiser just hyped HU-CU on PTI as the most intriguing CBB game this weekend, and then started the whole "if Cornell doesn't get the auto-bid, they should go at-large" train moving. Wilbon picked his Northwestern game, continuing the proud homer tradition that PTI has.

Hey, when you are a Cornellian or an Northwestern grad you take every opportunity to hype your alma mater when they have a little athletic success. It doesn't happen all that often, even given the CU Hockey, lacrosse and wrestling programs. If they are being homers these days, they deserve a little slack.

Just my opinion,

Peter (Northwestern '73)

peterg

RichH
Kornheiser just hyped HU-CU on PTI as the most intriguing CBB game this weekend, and then started the whole "if Cornell doesn't get the auto-bid, they should go at-large" train moving. Wilbon picked his Northwestern game, continuing the proud homer tradition that PTI has.

Hey, when you are a Cornellian or an Northwestern grad you take every opportunity to hype your alma mater when they have a little athletic success. It doesn't happen all that often, even given the CU Hockey, lacrosse and wrestling programs. If they are being homers these days, they deserve a little slack.

Just my opinion,

Peter (Northwestern '73)

TK is a Harpur College (now SUNY Binghamton) grad. It's his daughter that graduated from Cornell.

Jordan 04
In case anyone wasn't aware, free home audio for the bball game at: [wvbr.com], assuming it doesn't cut out at the start of the game.

wvbr.com does free audio for all games, home and away

In the interview after tonight's Kansas - Kansas State game -- which went into overtime and had Kansas leading by five until a K-State player swished a 3-pointer from near mid-court at the buzzer -- Sherron Collins described the terrific play he made to put the game out of reach as, "the same play we drew up against Cornell." If Kansas had beaten Kentucky or Texas earlier in the season, one could imagine him using their names instead and with the same respectful tone of voice from the star player of the team that will be #1 next week.

Jordan 04

peterg

RichH
Kornheiser just hyped HU-CU on PTI as the most intriguing CBB game this weekend, and then started the whole "if Cornell doesn't get the auto-bid, they should go at-large" train moving. Wilbon picked his Northwestern game, continuing the proud homer tradition that PTI has.

Hey, when you are a Cornellian or an Northwestern grad you take every opportunity to hype your alma mater when they have a little athletic success. It doesn't happen all that often, even given the CU Hockey, lacrosse and wrestling programs. If they are being homers these days, they deserve a little slack.

Just my opinion,

Peter (Northwestern '73)

TK is a Harpur College (now SUNY Binghamton) grad. It's his daughter that graduated from Cornell.

yeah, and nearly every time there is a Cornell mention, Tony says "that's where my money goes." I think there is another offspring-tie of his to Penn, because he hypes them more than any CU mention. So when NU and Penn met for the Women's Lacrosse championship, there was more than a discussion on PTI. Anyway, the point is that whenever there is a NY mention, Wilbon rips Kornheiser for having the "east coast bias" and then whenever Wilbon completely protects Chicago & Northwestern, it's OK.