Cornell 9 at Brown 11 lax postgame

Don't want to say I Told You So but it was not unexpected to worry about a Cornell letdown ("loss" the week after taking down No. 1 Princton. Now, mostly, I wonder: Will this hurt our ranking so much that we fall to No. 4 or lower and wind up in an NCAA bracket that places us in the samne semifinals bracket as Virginia? I'd like to win it all. I suppose we could. If we can't, it would be nice to make it to the title game. I think we have that capability and then, maybe, we might do well against Virginia if we meet them then, not in the semis.

Same story as with hockey: We had a chance to make the title game, with the path to the finals being good but beatable teams such as Bemidji and Miami, except we never got that far.

It's a big disappointment to lose this game and with it the chance at the outright Ivy title. Brown is a good team with a very solid defense and a great goaler. And they had plenty of motivation going into the contest (chance to win the league, our high ranking, senior day, opportunity to battle back into the NCAA tournament picture, etc.). Still, with our talent on offense, I was hoping we could prevail in a close one.

As it relates to our NCAA tournament seeding, it didn't seem that our position was particularly good even before this game. That's because of the strange system used to seed the tournament. In a hypothetical seeding presented last week on one of the lacrosse websites, they had us at a seven seed, well behind both Princeton and the Duke Dukes. I have never understood how the "committee" can ignore head-to-head results, but that's exactly what they do (just ask our 07 team). As a result, both the Princes and the Dukes, two teams we beat this year, are almost certain to have much better seedings than us.

Here's the bottom line: even if Brown beats the Princes next week and wins the league (and autobid), we still should be able to make it to the NCAA tournament. However, look for our seeding to be barely inside the top eight with a Princeton win and somewhere in the unseeded logpile with a Brown win.

Remember, when the "committee" looks at seeding, it's all comes down to who you played, not how you did against those teams when you played them.

FarEastLax
It's a big disappointment to lose this game and with it the chance at the outright Ivy title. Brown is a good team with a very solid defense and a great goaler. And they had plenty of motivation going into the contest (chance to win the league, our high ranking, senior day, opportunity to battle back into the NCAA tournament picture, etc.). Still, with our talent on offense, I was hoping we could prevail in a close one.

As it relates to our NCAA tournament seeding, it didn't seem that our position was particularly good even before this game. That's because of the strange system used to seed the tournament. In a hypothetical seeding presented last week on one of the lacrosse websites, they had us at a seven seed, well behind both Princeton and the Duke Dukes. I have never understood how the "committee" can ignore head-to-head results, but that's exactly what they do (just ask our 07 team). As a result, both the Princes and the Dukes, two teams we beat this year, are almost certain to have much better seedings than us.

Here's the bottom line: even if Brown beats the Princes next week and wins the league (and autobid), we still should be able to make it to the NCAA tournament. However, look for our seeding to be barely inside the top eight with a Princeton win and somewhere in the unseeded logpile with a Brown win.

Remember, when the "committee" looks at seeding, it's all comes down to who you played, not how you did against those teams when you played them.

This is all sad but very true. Given Cornell's current RPI ranking (#10) and strength of schedule (#8 according to laxpower) I'm getting concerned about even sneaking into the top eight. By contrast, Hopkins, a team that is a dismal 1-4 against top ten RPI teams, will likely get a top four seed, because they are #1 in RPI and strength of schedule.

The bolded statement above says it all.

Losing Matt Moyer in the second period yesterday was a huge factor in the game. But the biggest issue was the inability to get the attack into the offense. A three-goal second half (Derkac's goal with a minute left was irrelevant) will not beat a solid team like Brown.

Sloppy passing, too many turnovers, and bad shot selection sums it up to me. They never got the attackmen involved in the attack - it was all midfield. And by the third quarter, the team had stopped working. Except for Siebald who tried to do it all himself a couple times - which got shut down by the Brown D pretty easily. I'll also add that the field was a mess and we were slipping all over the place (but that should have been remedied by a change of shoes).

OTOH, I thought Myers had a great game (and took one for the team). It wouldn't have been as close as it was without him.

BTW, Moyer was out for the entire 2nd quarter, too.

Should also add how great it was to watch the game sitting with Jeff, Tim and Mrs. V, Killer and Mrs. Killer, and TomP.

Al DeFlorio
Should also add how great it was to watch the game sitting with Jeff, Tim and Mrs. V, Killer and Mrs. Killer, and TomP.

It was great watching the game with all of you as well. And let me add that the Killer in-laws, both in their 80s and seeing their first lax game ever, thoroughly enjoyed it. Now they're asking me about tickets to Foxboro. Never too old to develop a new interest, eh?

Al DeFlorio
Should also add how great it was to watch the game sitting with Jeff, Tim and Mrs. V, Killer and Mrs. Killer, and TomP.

Same here, Al. Always good to spend time with fellow Faithful.

When strength of schedule is overweighted, or the committee underweights wins against teams such as Princeton, would this force Tambroni to think about dropping weaker teams? Even if it's not good for lacrosse or not good for promoting NYS lacrosse? Hobart isn't helping our SOS but it's a traditonal game and a measure of respect for an upstate opponent that hasn't been having good years recently. We used to play Cortland State (long ago) and that's gone. It's nice that we play Binghamton and Army. It would be nice if we could schedule Albany, or pick up UMass again to help New England lacrosse.

If we stick with Binghamton, maybe they'll be a regular top 20 team in five years.

Remember, when the "committee" looks at seeding, it's all comes down to who you played, not how you did against those teams when you played them.
This is all sad but very true. Given Cornell's current RPI ranking (#10) and strength of schedule (#8 according to laxpower) I'm getting concerned about even sneaking into the top eight. By contrast, Hopkins, a team that is a dismal 1-4 against top ten RPI teams, will likely get a top four seed, because they are #1 in RPI and strength of schedule.

The bolded statement above says it all.

That said, I think this is the best schedule we've had in many years. Playing UVA, Duke, Syracuse, and then a stronger-than-normal Ivy schedule (with ranked teams in Princeton, Brown, and Harvard) is a pretty awesome schedule.

BTW. UNC-Duke on NESN now. 7-6 Duke with 8:50 left in the 2nd. Very high scoring.

billhoward
When strength of schedule is overweighted...

It would be interesting to see a statistical analysis of how SOS, RPI, B-T, polls, etc. rate in picking games winners in the tournament. We'd have to agree IN ADVANCE what our measure of success was.

Duke beat UNC 15-13 to win the ACC tournament. The only loss they've had since February was to Cornell. That includes 2 wins vs. UVA by a combined 16 goal margin. Their other 2 losses on the season was to Harvard and Maryland.

RichH
Duke beat UNC 15-13 to win the ACC tournament. The only loss they've had since February was to Cornell. That includes 2 wins vs. UVA by a combined 16 goal margin. Their other 2 losses on the season was to Harvard and Maryland.

And as nice as that win was, Cornell's RPI and strength of schedule would be precisely the same if we'd beaten Brown and lost to Duke rather than vice versa.

As Al says, flipping the outcomes on our games with Brown and Duke does nothing to our RPI and SOS. So, there we have it: who you play means more than whether you actually win or lose those games. Assuming a team can finish the season above .500 (um, "can do" with the right padding in the schedule ), then ACC teams and certain other indepedents are always going to have the advantage when it comes to tourament admission and seeding.

I'm not sure if there's enough time to pull this off, but we may want to try to cram in a quick two-game set this week against the Dukes in Durham (we are, of course, used to travelling there and know it well). Whatever happens in the games won't matter, and we will move up the seeding charts come Sunday.

Al DeFlorio

RichH
Duke beat UNC 15-13 to win the ACC tournament. The only loss they've had since February was to Cornell. That includes 2 wins vs. UVA by a combined 16 goal margin. Their other 2 losses on the season was to Harvard and Maryland.

And as nice as that win was, Cornell's RPI and strength of schedule would be precisely the same if we'd beaten Brown and lost to Duke rather than vice versa.

Yes, but the win over Duke is a better "quality win" than a win over Brown would have been.

jtwcornell91

Al DeFlorio

RichH
Duke beat UNC 15-13 to win the ACC tournament. The only loss they've had since February was to Cornell. That includes 2 wins vs. UVA by a combined 16 goal margin. Their other 2 losses on the season was to Harvard and Maryland.

And as nice as that win was, Cornell's RPI and strength of schedule would be precisely the same if we'd beaten Brown and lost to Duke rather than vice versa.

Yes, but the win over Duke is a better "quality win" than a win over Brown would have been.

True, but quality wins AND strength of schedule are both based on where your opponent is ranked by RPI, so both of those criteria are flawed to the extent that RPI is flawed. For example, right now a win over Hopkins is considered a better "quality win" than a win over Duke or Syracuse, and a scheduled game against Hopkins adds more to your strength of schedule than does a game against Duke or Syracuse. So both quality wins and strength of schedule are built on a foundation of RPI sand.

[Edit: The other problem with "quality wins" is that it takes no account of how many chances a team has against teams in that RPI bracket. A team that has seven chances against top ten teams and wins three comes out better than a team that wins twice in two or three chances. And then those seven chances boost RPI and strength of schedule to such a degree that they swamp quality wins.]

Jeff Hopkins '82
BTW, Moyer was out for the entire 2nd quarter, too.

More on Moyer in today's Ithaca Journal: [www.theithacajournal.com]

Doubtful for Hobart. First Gradinger and Dorne lost to injuries. Now Moyer. Feely's hurting, too. Decimated D.