NCAA rule against agents struck down

An Oklahoma State pitcher sued the NCAA over it's rule prohibiting agents.
[www.baseballamerica.com]
The kid had used an agent advisor as a high school senior after being drafted by the Twins. He didn't sign and instead went to OSU. When the agent relationship came out the NCAA forced the school to suspend the player.

The ruling appears to be by an Ohio county judge so it has very little precedential value at this point. But if this holds up under appeal it seems like it could have a significant efects on college sports including hockey.

It's not clear from the stories why the case was filed in Erie County, Ohio. Maybe the player is from there.

KeithK
It's not clear from the stories why the case was filed in Erie County, Ohio. Maybe the player is from there.

That's it.

KeithK
It's not clear from the stories why the case was filed in Erie County, Ohio. Maybe the player is from there.

That's it.

This is a lot more likely to affect college hockey than football or hoops. The NHL, like MLB, doesn't require players to opt in to the draft. The NFL and NBA draft opt-in draft rules are collusive bullshit but they present a tougher case.

ugarte
This is a lot more likely to affect college hockey than football or hoops. The NHL, like MLB, doesn't require players to opt in to the draft. The NFL and NBA draft opt-in draft rules are collusive bullshit but they present a tougher case.

Is it a coincidence that the NHL, like MLB, has a strong minor league system, while the NFL and NBA use the colleges as quasi-professional development franchises?

Trotsky

ugarte
This is a lot more likely to affect college hockey than football or hoops. The NHL, like MLB, doesn't require players to opt in to the draft. The NFL and NBA draft opt-in draft rules are collusive bullshit but they present a tougher case.

Is it a coincidence that the NHL, like MLB, has a strong minor league system, while the NFL and NBA use the colleges as quasi-professional development franchises?

And similarly, hockey and baseball are the two sports of the Big Four where top academic institutions are regularly found at the top of the rankings.

Trotsky

ugarte
This is a lot more likely to affect college hockey than football or hoops. The NHL, like MLB, doesn't require players to opt in to the draft. The NFL and NBA draft opt-in draft rules are collusive bullshit but they present a tougher case.

Is it a coincidence that the NHL, like MLB, has a strong minor league system, while the NFL and NBA use the colleges as quasi-professional development franchises?

You are being sarcastic, right? Usually I can tell.

That the synergy of NCAA policy and the NFL and NBA draft rules have not yet been attacked as an antitrust conspiracy is a wonder to me.

MOBalum
And similarly, hockey and baseball are the two sports of the Big Four where top academic institutions are regularly found at the top of the rankings.

Sure, here's one ranking for this year's baseball.

1. NORTH CAROLINA – 2008 rank: 3
2. LSU – 2008 rank: 6
3. TEXAS A&M – 2008 rank: 12
4. CAL STATE FULLERTON – 2008 rank: 3
5. RICE – 2008 rank: 8
6. TEXAS – 2008 rank: 23
7. UC IRVINE – 2008 rank: 11
8. PEPPERDINE – 2008 rank: 19
9. GEORGIA – 2008 rank: 2
10. FLORIDA STATE – 2008 rank: 7 

It looks a lot different than football and basketball, doesn't it?

Jim Hyla

MOBalum
And similarly, hockey and baseball are the two sports of the Big Four where top academic institutions are regularly found at the top of the rankings.

Sure, here's one ranking for this year's baseball.

1. NORTH CAROLINA – 2008 rank: 3
2. LSU – 2008 rank: 6
3. TEXAS A&M – 2008 rank: 12
4. CAL STATE FULLERTON – 2008 rank: 3
5. RICE – 2008 rank: 8
6. TEXAS – 2008 rank: 23
7. UC IRVINE – 2008 rank: 11
8. PEPPERDINE – 2008 rank: 19
9. GEORGIA – 2008 rank: 2
10. FLORIDA STATE – 2008 rank: 7 

It looks a lot different than football and basketball, doesn't it?

Despite the sarcasm I infer from your icon, yes it does.

I never said that only top academic schools are at the top of the list; the BCS powers are going to be strong in every sport, just as Michigan, Michigan State, Ohio State, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Notre Dame, BC are frequently ranked in hockey. (I'm well-aware that some of those are also outstanding institutions of higher learning, then again from your list Texas, UNC, and to a lesser degree TAMU are strong as well - not the point.)

In the Rivals top ten that you mentioned, five are traditional or recent FB and BB powers, one (UNC) is obviously a basketball power but not a football strength, and the other four? Fullerton, Rice, UC-Irvine, Pepperdine. One is Ivy-quality, two more are in the upper half of US News' Tier I. Add to that the fact that Vanderbilt and Tulane have both been ranked #1 in recent years, that Stanford has been a regular at the College World Series, and that Georgia Tech does better in baseball than it does in either FB or BB.

My statement was motivated by the fact that in baseball and hockey, those who only care about the professional level can sign right out of high school, leaving the college level for those who actively choose to be student-athletes. As we all know, there are 1,355,683,250 student-athletes in the NCAA, and nearly all will go pro in something other than sports. Obviously lacrosse and many Olympic sports are well-represented by "smart-kid" schools, but they don't have the same type of pro leagues to deal with. Hence baseball and hockey.

Perhaps it would be a better statement to say that college baseball, like hockey, is a sport where many schools outside the expected sports-factory mold have had success. I guess I'm not a regular here and will choose my words more carefully in the future.

MOBalum
I guess I'm not a regular here and will choose my words more carefully in the future.

You have learned an important first lesson about eLF, my friend!

MOBalum
Perhaps it would be a better statement to say that college baseball, like hockey, is a sport where many schools outside the expected sports-factory mold have had success. I guess I'm not a regular here and will choose my words more carefully in the future.

Don't worry. If you hadn't stepped in, I had your back.

MOBalum
As we all know, there are 1,355,683,250 student-athletes in the NCAA, and nearly all will go pro in something other than sports.

Josh '99

MOBalum
As we all know, there are 1,355,683,250 student-athletes in the NCAA, and nearly all will go pro in something other than sports.

And, I suppose, a few will go con.

Al DeFlorio

Josh '99

MOBalum
As we all know, there are 1,355,683,250 student-athletes in the NCAA, and nearly all will go pro in something other than sports.

And, I suppose, a few will go con.

They should be in jail for capitalizing The Ohio State University.

That would be an interesting discussion: College with the most criminal and otherwise-sanctionable involvements among its student athletes. Miami ("the team picture is take from the front and both sides" could have retired such a trophy a decade ago.

Al DeFlorio

Josh '99

MOBalum
As we all know, there are 1,355,683,250 student-athletes in the NCAA, and nearly all will go pro in something other than sports.

And, I suppose, a few will go con.

Did Ted Kaczynski play any sports at Sucks?

If you were a suicide bomber with just one belt pack (containing an Acme stink bomb) and the NCAA executive committee was meeting in the Magnolia Suite while the College Sports Agents Ethics Committee was meeting down the hall in the Cornelius Vanderbilt room, where would you pull the cord?

It's hard to understand why a person in college isn't entitled to representation by a lawyer. And is there any line you draw? It does seem shaky -- bordering on professionalism -- to ask for a cut of the student-athlete's future earnings as opposed to an hourly or flat fee the way most people pay lawyers. But then colleges a generation ago offered tuition waivers in exchange for a small cut of the student's adult earnings. (Those programs died when Yale etc. found the people who used them were more likely to be low-paid teachers rather than the Wall Street-bound and so the funding pool never re-filled.)

The player (Andrew Oliver) must either be indecisive about his pro career or just wanted to someone to talk to a lot. One story says he rang up a $115,000 tab based on $350/hour. Abuut 330 hours if it was all hourly and nothing for FedEx or paper clips.

billhoward
It's hard to understand why a person in college isn't entitled to representation by a lawyer. And is there any line you draw?

To play devil's advocate here, why can't a school legitimately impose conditions on participation in athletic activities? There's a freedom of association/freedom of contract argument. If it's my league I ought o be able to require certain conditions for participation. You may be entitled to representation by a lawyer (and is this strictly true outside of a criminal setting) but you aren't entitled to participation in college athletics.

A school or a league can't make you give up basic rights. Talking to a lawyer is probably one of the basic rights and the school / league can't say, "It's a basic right except if you want to talk to the lawyer about sports."

They can make you maintain a minimum GPA, or maybe make you not drink during the season even if you're 21 or wear a tie onto the team bus.

billhoward part 1
A school or a league can't make you give up basic rights.

billhoward part 2
They can make you...maybe make you not drink during the season even if you're 21

Wow, that only took you about three lines. Impressive.

There's no constitutional right to an attorney unless you've been arrested for a crime. The NCAA and its members have decided that it's in the student-athletes' best interest not to have direct interaction with people who could and would profit from that interaction until they're done participating in the (theoretically) non-business world of college sports.

And as has been previously suggested, when you know the rules and obligations of participating, it's pretty disingenuous to then complain about being caught and punished for breaking the rules and obligations of participating.

Beeeej
Wow, that only took you about three lines. Impressive.

It was concentrated powder. What can I say.

Beeeej
There's no constitutional right to an attorney unless you've been arrested for a crime. The NCAA and its members have decided that it's in the student-athletes' best interest not to have direct interaction with people who could and would profit from that interaction until they're done participating in the (theoretically) non-business world of college sports.

Wouldn't it be more accurate to say there's no prohibition against counsel? In virtually every dealing with the government or an agency taking government funds, you can have a lawyer speak for you: a lawyer at a zoning meeting even if it's not in the town's statutes allowing it, a lawyer or child-advocate at a special ed annual review (though it might be counter-productive), a lawyer outside if not in the grand jury room. The NCAA and the colleges take government money and can’t declare themselves private entities unless they’re Grove City (Pa.) College and haven’t been at the trough in 20 years. "The NCAA decides the student-athletes’ best interests" rings as rhetoric and wishful thinking -- the audacity of hype -- as much as reality. The NCAA may be thinking about what's best for the NCAA and its self-image, not the individual student.

Beeeej
… when you know the rules and obligations of participating, it's pretty disingenuous to then complain about being caught and punished for breaking the rules and obligations of participating.

If the rules are unfair or contrary to law, you might opt to participate and challenge in parallel or challenge only if the other side pushes back (as here with the baseball player). If you waited for a legal challenge to work its way through the courts, you’d be too old to play. And why challenge in advance when all you want to do is play ball and maybe get a good pro contract? Not everyone wants to be a revolutionary.

The player here may not be a saint. Good people don't make good case law.

Any day when the NCAA's PR and legal departments wake up, check their Blackberries, and reach for the Maalox is a good day for America.

billhoward

Beeeej
There's no constitutional right to an attorney unless you've been arrested for a crime. The NCAA and its members have decided that it's in the student-athletes' best interest not to have direct interaction with people who could and would profit from that interaction until they're done participating in the (theoretically) non-business world of college sports.

Wouldn't it be more accurate to say there's no prohibition against counsel?

Yes, that was exactly my point - it's why what you originally said about them abridging the player's "rights" was not accurate. People voluntarily accept restrictions as a condition of gaining benefits all the time, and the privilege of playing varsity sports in the NCAA means not being able to consult a sports agent until a certain time. It doesn't much matter what the NCAA's motivation is, it's a fact. If you don't like the restriction, go play elsewhere. That happens all the time, too, particularly in hockey.

And yes, perhaps it will get struck down as unconstitutional, but I highly doubt it - more likely this one Ohio judge is just an aberration along the way and he'll be overturned. Bad clients make for good case law, but bad trial judges...

billhoward
If the rules are unfair or contrary to law...

Always keep in mind that just because something is unfair doesn't mean that it's illegal, unconstitutional or that you have any legal recourse about it. Lord knows there are enough "unfair" laws on the books (but we'll leave that to that other forum). Life isn't fair.