Should Cornell Build a New Arena?

Does anyone else think that Cornell should build a new arena?

I think Cornell would be better served with a larger venue than Newman, say in the 10,000-15,000 seat capacity range. The new arena could be used for both basketball teams, concerts, notable lectures as well as special events such as graduation related activities.

Newman could then be used exclusively for the volleyball team and basketball practices.

The Friedman Center elevated our wrestling program to a different level. I think a "mini" NBA type model arena would serve as a MAJOR recruiting tool for Cornell basketball (men's and women's). It would also give the school a VERY MUCH needed indoor facility for large events.

No. It's great the basketball is drawing pretty well this year, but I've been to too many games in Newman with so few fans it feels like the space is way too big. If you tripled capacity you'd get that feeling for every game. Ivy league basketball will not draw 10-15k fans nor will all but the most exceptional lectures/concerts.

As point of comparison, the hockey game @ OSU back at the start of the '02-'03 season had a crowd of 3-5k in a building that holds 15k+ and it was a bad experience. Unless you have very very good reason to think you can fill the space, forget it.

Finally, where would you put the thing?

Chris '03
As point of comparison, the hockey game @ OSU back at the start of the '02-'03 season had a crowd of 3-5k in a building that holds 15k+ and it was a bad experience. Unless you have very very good reason to think you can fill the space, forget it.

Finally, where would you put the thing?

A building that size would look WAAAAY out of place on Cornell's campus. (Which is, as you point out, moot, because there's literally no space for it.)

Josh '99

Chris '03
As point of comparison, the hockey game @ OSU back at the start of the '02-'03 season had a crowd of 3-5k in a building that holds 15k+ and it was a bad experience. Unless you have very very good reason to think you can fill the space, forget it.

Finally, where would you put the thing?

A building that size would look WAAAAY out of place on Cornell's campus. (Which is, as you point out, moot, because there's literally no space for it.)

They could put it underground. Then it might get nicknamed "The Dungeon".

jtwcornell91

Josh '99

Chris '03
As point of comparison, the hockey game @ OSU back at the start of the '02-'03 season had a crowd of 3-5k in a building that holds 15k+ and it was a bad experience. Unless you have very very good reason to think you can fill the space, forget it.

Finally, where would you put the thing?

A building that size would look WAAAAY out of place on Cornell's campus. (Which is, as you point out, moot, because there's literally no space for it.)

They could put it underground. Then it might get nicknamed "The Dungeon".

The they could build the necessary parking garage on top of it.

I buy into the argument that Cornell may not be able to fill a 15,000 seat building to crowd capacity, but do we really have a land issue? It seems to me that Cornell can easily obtain the additional land or build over a track of land that we already own but under-utilize.

Would alumni still feel the arena would be too big if it were an 8,000 seat capacity (roughly equiv to Penn's Palestra)?

I just happen to think that Newman Arena is inadequate in terms of its current capacity and layout.

While I have nothing against the Fieldhouse, it is actually quite a nice facility by Ivy standards, I just think the University did a poor job designing Newman Arena.

Bucknell's basketball facility is so much nicer and feels like a small arena with the way the crowd wraps around the court.

[bucknellbison.cstv.com]

Perhaps they could do some type of extension/remodel job of Newman so that rows/seats can be added behind each basket, thereby increasing the capacity from 4750 to potentially 6,000.

Cornell basketball has the very real potential of becoming Cornell's biggest revenue sport. Our administration has yet to grasp that concept.

CornellFan
Does anyone else think that Cornell should build a new arena?

I think Cornell would be better served with a larger venue than Newman, say in the 10,000-15,000 seat capacity range. The new arena could be used for both basketball teams, concerts, notable lectures as well as special events such as graduation related activities.

Newman could then be used exclusively for the volleyball team and basketball practices.

The Friedman Center elevated our wrestling program to a different level. I think a "mini" NBA type model arena would serve as a MAJOR recruiting tool for Cornell basketball (men's and women's). It would also give the school a VERY MUCH needed indoor facility for large events.

No. A thousand times no. Cornell is a school not a goddamn athletics program. I'm glad the basketball team is finally winning but one above-.500 season is not grounds to break out the checkbook and build a monument to being better-than-crap.

Ithaca is not Philadelphia. Cornell doesn't need - and couldn't make good use of - a Palestra. The campus already has Barton and Bailey (and Newman, for that matter) for concerts and lectures. It doesn't matter how much Cornell invests in hoops; it is unlikely to be more successful as a program than an occassional Ivy title and a first-round loss to the winner of a major conference. This may be depressing to you, CornellFan - but that should actually be the goal of Cornell basketball and the spending should reflect that.

I'm not going to agree with you that CU needs a new arena. I have, however, always thought Newman had little character and seemed like a big high school gym. That said, I'm sure there are plenty of priorities ahead of a remodel, especially one that would give the place more empty seats when the program returns to the ground.

ugarte

CornellFan
Does anyone else think that Cornell should build a new arena?

I think Cornell would be better served with a larger venue than Newman, say in the 10,000-15,000 seat capacity range. The new arena could be used for both basketball teams, concerts, notable lectures as well as special events such as graduation related activities.

Newman could then be used exclusively for the volleyball team and basketball practices.

The Friedman Center elevated our wrestling program to a different level. I think a "mini" NBA type model arena would serve as a MAJOR recruiting tool for Cornell basketball (men's and women's). It would also give the school a VERY MUCH needed indoor facility for large events.

No. A thousand times no. Cornell is a school not a goddamn athletics program. I'm glad the basketball team is finally winning but one above-.500 season is not grounds to break out the checkbook and build a monument to being better-than-crap.

Ithaca is not Philadelphia. Cornell doesn't need - and couldn't make good use of - a Palestra. The campus already has Barton and Bailey (and Newman, for that matter) for concerts and lectures. It doesn't matter how much Cornell invests in hoops; it is unlikely to be more successful as a program than an occassional Ivy title and a first-round loss to the winner of a major conference. This may be depressing to you, CornellFan - but that should actually be the goal of Cornell basketball and the spending should reflect that.

Look at the photo of Bucknell's facility. They sold out the game, and I'd imagine they didn't shoot their admissions standards with a shotgun to do it. I'm not pushing for a new facility until we can fill the old one, but I think CornellFan is right. It can't be impossible to expand our reach and find more talented b-ball players who can cut it academically here, and I have no objection to CU having other sports that aren't Big-10-big, but are at least major draws on campus. Sports are part of American college life, they increase student's school pride, and being in rink or basketball arena with thousands of other undergraduates on a Friday night in February in Ithaca is what being a Cornellian is all about.

Ugarte, you are correct that the best we can hope for is an Ivy title every few years, and a first round lost in the big dance, but whatever, I'm fine with that; in fact, I'd be proud of it.

ugarte
No. A thousand times no. Cornell is a school not a goddamn athletics program. I'm glad the basketball team is finally winning but one above-.500 season is not grounds to break out the checkbook and build a monument to being better-than-crap.

Well said. That building is new enough and acceptable enough for the sport that I see no reason to pour millions into a new facility. Yeah, so the multi-purpose design kinda sucks, and it doesn't give as much of a home court advantage as say Lynah or the Palestra, but we had our chance in 1990 when it was being built. It's a bit antiseptic, but that's what was decided. Tough noogies.

I also think Friedman was a colossal boondoggle and completely unnecessary when Newmann was just fine for wrestling.

University priorities should be about providing world-class educational/research facilities and adequate athletic/recreational resources. Not vice-versa.

If some athletic facility becomes woefully outdated and inadequate, I'm all in favor of spending the money to bring it back up to modern standards...which is why I supported the new track and soccer field whole-heartedly. Newman isn't in that category. I'm a huge lacrosse fan, and while it would be fantastic to have a lax-only stadium like Princeton has, there's nothing wrong with playing at Schoellkopf, so I would be opposed to any such plans.

Personally, I'd like to see CU basketball stage a "turn back the clock" night and play one game in Barton Hall.

I think you want to think very carefully before expanding an arena. As Chris pointed out, OSU hockey plays in front of a 2/3 empty building even when they get good crowds because their arena is too big. Even Lynah is not necessarily selling out this year with the larger capacity. All it takes is a slight down tick in performance or uptick in prices and you might not fill the building. I'd rather have a packed arena that is small than a larger one with empty seats, even if the overall crowd was bigger.

Basketball probably needs to sustain a level of success for a number of years before it makes sense to talk about improving facilties again or expanding capacity. I haven't looked at the attendance figures but I doubt it's a hard ticket to get. Not that they couldn't sell out Newman, but the program isnt' there yet.

I do disagree that bball will ever supplant hockey in terms of revenue/popularity at Cornell based on the fact that Cornell can be a legitimate national contender and has the history. I do think that Cornell could build a hoops program that could be consistently challenging for the Ivy title and periodically gives a good show in March. The P schools have done this so there's no reason why we couldn't. It's not easy to build a program like that starting from long term mediocrity but with the right mix of people it can proabbly be done.

RichH
Personally, I'd like to see CU basketball stage a "turn back the clock" night and play one game in Barton Hall.

I'd love to see that too. Since I'm pretty much not a basketball fan I never made it to a game in Barton my freshman year before the move to Alberding. (I think I only made it to one game there too - a woeful loss to Princeton IIRC. Didn't seem worth spending money on more of that.)

CornellFan
I buy into the argument that Cornell may not be able to fill a 15,000 seat building to crowd capacity, but do we really have a land issue? It seems to me that Cornell can easily obtain the additional land or build over a track of land that we already own but under-utilize./quote]Cornell certainly can obtain extra land when necessary, if the money is available. But where is this land going to be? They've already built a softball field far away from central campus and possibly another sport too (can't remember). Yes, they could build a new massive arena somewhere east of the Vet school, but do you really think a lot of students are going to make that trek on a Friday night? They might if the team were tourney caliber, but I think distance would make it a lot harder to build fan support for a developing program.

Now, you could just do what they have been doing - fill up all available space on central campus with buildings. Personally I'd rather not have a big sports arena plunked down in the middle of the Arts Quad.

In the "old days" of Barton Hall, how did Cornell set up the bleachers with respect to the indoor track?

I was actually a proponent a few years ago (on the Ivybasketball.com message board) of moving Cornell basketball back to Barton.

I believe Barton (1914) is older than the Palestra and if we were to use it full time for basketball, it would be the oldest in-use gym in the country.

Barton also has a great atmosphere and with a bit of refurbishing could be a great place to play full time. I also believe Barton holds more than Newman. It has "permanent" seating for 4,800, but I believe can get up to 5,500 for a basketball game type set-up.

I am just curious how the stands were arranged in relation to the track.

RichH
Personally, I'd like to see CU basketball stage a "turn back the clock" night and play one game in Barton Hall.

I think that would be a lot of fun. Coach Donahue has an old black and white photo of a Syracuse AT?!?! Cornell game played in Barton ages ago in front of an overflow crowd. If I recall, all the fans were wearing shirts and ties too. I'll settle for the overflow crowd and a home game vs. Syracuse.

Ben Rocky 04
Look at the photo of Bucknell's facility. They sold out the game, and I'd imagine they didn't shoot their admissions standards with a shotgun to do it.

They had a couple of shockingly good recruiting classes and managed to get to the Sweet 16. I guarantee you that Bucknell's current success and attendance is an abberation. At some point in the next three years Bucknell will not win the Patriot (hell, it could be this year) and they will no longer sell out the building. Also, Patriot League teams can give out scholarships which gives them another advantage over us. Using an abberation like Bucknell (or for that matter the wildly-overblown-but-immensely-enjoyed occassional postseason success of the P's) to justify replacing a new building with a bigger, more expensive facility is folly.

[q]Sports are part of American college life, they increase student's school pride, and being in rink or basketball arena with thousands of other undergraduates on a Friday night in February in Ithaca is what being a Cornellian is all about.[/q]

This is somewhat true but also a lot of bullshitery. How much should be spent on that pride? And wouldn't a lot of that money be better spent? Keep in mind that we aren't talking about going from playing in the Milan High gym or the cavernous Barton to a new facility; we are talking about taking a fairly new structure in excellent (if uninsipiring) condition and turning it into a practice facility / volleyball arena. (Willy '06 notwithstanding, I don't think volleyball will use Newman's capacity any time soon.)

[q]Ugarte, you are correct that the best we can hope for is an Ivy title every few years, and a first round lost in the big dance, but whatever, I'm fine with that; in fact, I'd be proud of it.[/quote]

Yeah, that was my point. And we are actually probably already there without shitcanning our current facility.

ugarte
They had a couple of shockingly good recruiting classes and managed to get to the Sweet 16. I guarantee you that Bucknell's current success and attendance is an abberation. At some point in the next three years Bucknell will not win the Patriot (hell, it could be this year) and they will no longer sell out the building. Also, Patriot League teams can give out scholarships which gives them another advantage over us. Using an abberation like Bucknell (or for that matter the wildly-overblown-but-immensely-enjoyed occassional postseason success of the P's) to justify replacing a new building with a bigger, more expensive facility is folly.

ugarte
This is somewhat true but also a lot of bullshitery. How much should be spent on that pride? And wouldn't a lot of that money be better spent? Keep in mind that we aren't talking about going from playing in the Milan High gym or the cavernous Barton to a new facility; we are talking about taking a fairly new structure in excellent (if uninsipiring) condition and turning it into a practice facility / volleyball arena. (Willy '06 notwithstanding, I don't think volleyball will use Newman's capacity any time soon.)

ugarte
Yeah, that was my point. And we are actually probably already there without shitcanning our current facility.

Ben Rocky 04
I'm not pushing for a new facility until we can fill the old one, but I think CornellFan is right.

As I said, until we fill Newman, its not worth thinking about replacing it. Its only ~15 years old, and it still looks brand spanking new.

What I am talking about is making sure we continue to expand the scope and success of our basketball recruiting, get further above .500 and as a consequence, hopefully increase the fanbase for it on campus. Not every student, staff or faculty member will get into hockey, and lots of people are already into basketball, plus, we've got the arena, why the heck not make some money selling tickets to the broader Ithaca community? The only new inceased expenditure I'm talking about is improving Donahue's salary, if he so desires, so that we don't loose him.

As for improving facilities, I'm with RichH. We fix and improve things as they need it; not when we want to. Schoellkopf works great for the 5 varsity teams it supports, and hopefully those varsity teams will not stretched too thin with the loss of some of alumni fields. Lynah needed some renovations and those visiting lockerrooms were a joke, so I support that. The new soccer/track field was needed, and I'm sure whatever they did to Hoy was responsibly thought out. Now Friedman.....

Ben Rocky 04
[Lynah needed some renovations and those visiting lockerrooms were a joke, so I support that.

Why do people not understand that that was not a bug, it was a feature?

KeithK

Ben Rocky 04
[Lynah needed some renovations and those visiting lockerrooms were a joke, so I support that.

Why do people not understand that that was not a bug, it was a feature?

So what you're saying is we should keep the old ones for Harvard (sucks), Clarkson, BU, and Minnesota, and let everyone else use the new ones?

Ben Rocky 04

KeithK

Ben Rocky 04
[Lynah needed some renovations and those visiting lockerrooms were a joke, so I support that.

Why do people not understand that that was not a bug, it was a feature?

So what you're saying is we should keep the old ones for Harvard (sucks), Clarkson, BU, and Minnesota, and let everyone else use the new ones?

Nah...stick North Dakota and New Hampshire in there, too. Hell, give 'em the closet that the bears used to use as a changing room.

CornellFan
In the "old days" of Barton Hall, how did Cornell set up the bleachers with respect to the indoor track?

I am just curious how the stands were arranged in relation to the track.

The track may be a different size and in a different location today than when Barton was used for basketball. The basketball court was wood, not synthetic back then. The best way to see how bleachers were set up is to find a copy of Bob Kane's book Good Sports in the Campus Store or library and look at pages 103, 218 (showing the indoor Heps, not basketball), and 223. At least 9,000 were in Barton for the win over Bill Bradley and Princeton in January 1965.

RichH

Ben Rocky 04

KeithK

Ben Rocky 04
[Lynah needed some renovations and those visiting lockerrooms were a joke, so I support that.

Why do people not understand that that was not a bug, it was a feature?

So what you're saying is we should keep the old ones for Harvard (sucks), Clarkson, BU, and Minnesota, and let everyone else use the new ones?

Nah...stick North Dakota and New Hampshire in there, too. Hell, give 'em the closet that the bears used to use as a changing room.

Calling that a closet is quite charitable.

CornellFan
Cornell basketball has the very real potential of becoming Cornell's biggest revenue sport. Our administration has yet to grasp that concept.

Only if the bball players also happen to be excellent hedge fund managers... Cornell bball does not contend for a national title and neither recruits nor produces NBA quality players. This is not changing anytime soon.

Cactus12

CornellFan
Cornell basketball has the very real potential of becoming Cornell's biggest revenue sport. Our administration has yet to grasp that concept.

Only if the bball players also happen to be excellent hedge fund managers... Cornell bball does not contend for a national title and neither recruits nor produces NBA quality players. This is not changing anytime soon.

It is also worth noting that "revenue sport" very, very rarely means "profit generating sport." This year's Cinderella Rutgers football team LOST over $6 million dollars despite multiple TV appearances, increased attendance and a bowl game. The hockey team won't make back the cost of the Lynah renovations in 10 years, the basketball team will not make back the cost of Newman, much less the proposed single-use stadium.

New arena? Nice idea, ain't gonna happen. Newman is okay for most Cornell hoops games other than looking like a big high school gym. If only a donor had coughed up an extra million for some atmosphere. Make it more of a Seinfeld Hall than Newman Arena.

Our big arena is already built: Barton Hall. You want 5000 or even 10,000 for hoops, that's your place. You got sort-of intimacy by putting the court in the middle of the running track and rolling up portable bleachers on three sides. Cornell may have used hardwood but in most of its last hoops-playing years it was the synthetic surface. Didn't hurt the quality of Cornell's play one bit. Bob Kane may have been a legendary athletic director in his three-plus decades at the helm of Cornell, bringing in Richie Moran and Ned Harkness, but he had horrible choices in basketball coaches Jerry Lace, Dave Bliss (the same one who coached Baylor), and Tony Coma, the latter an alcoholic who whipped virtually-all-black (the team) Cheyney State into shape in D-III and sunk Cornell Low in Cayuga's Waters (how Sports Illustrated headlined the Big Red). Frank Dolson, then sports editor of the Philadelphia Inquirer, said Coma's reputation was paper-thin and he can't believe how Cornell failed to investigate him more thoroughly.

It's great Cornell basketball is doing well. Many of us are happy for Cornell but fear an eventual reversion to norm. Will Steve Donahue pull a Pete Caril and close out his career here? That would be too much to hope for. Thus Newman may be the right size if not the right atmosphere.

billhoward
Bob Kane may have been a legendary athletic director in his three-plus decades at the helm of Cornell, bringing in Richie Moran and Ned Harkness, but he had horrible choices in basketball coaches Jerry Lace, Dave Bliss (the same one who coached Baylor), and Tony Coma, the latter an alcoholic who whipped virtually-all-black (the team) Cheyney State into shape in D-III and sunk Cornell Low in Cayuga's Waters (how Sports Illustrated headlined the Big Red).

Don't think Bliss ever coached at Cornell. Player, but never head coach. Your point about the quality of the coaches who immediately followed Sam MacNeil is certainly valid, however.

Carril had a wonderful half-court offense. Donahue has no concept of one.

OT a bit: Dave Bliss I believe was the assistant coach who finished out the season when Tony Coma was fired midway through in 1973 or 1974. He got caught up in a minor side-scandal (it seems so minor compared to the Reggie Bush kinds of things): Because Cornell had trouble recruiting, the coaches paid application fees under the table and hid the expenses elsewhere in the basketball budget.

Chris '03

RichH
Personally, I'd like to see CU basketball stage a "turn back the clock" night and play one game in Barton Hall.

I think that would be a lot of fun. Coach Donahue has an old black and white photo of a Syracuse AT?!?! Cornell game played in Barton ages ago in front of an overflow crowd. If I recall, all the fans were wearing shirts and ties too. I'll settle for the overflow crowd and a home game vs. Syracuse.

... turn back the clock to the point of wearing Bill Bradley-style shorts?

billhoward
Make it more of a Seinfeld Hall than Newman Arena.

This is going back a long way, but speaking of bringing more character to Newman, can't they just paint some of the cinder blocks red?

Al DeFlorio

CornellFan
In the "old days" of Barton Hall, how did Cornell set up the bleachers with respect to the indoor track?

I am just curious how the stands were arranged in relation to the track.

The track may be a different size and in a different location today than when Barton was used for basketball. The basketball court was wood, not synthetic back then. The best way to see how bleachers were set up is to find a copy of Bob Kane's book Good Sports in the Campus Store or library and look at pages 103, 218 (showing the indoor Heps, not basketball), and 223. At least 9,000 were in Barton for the win over Bill Bradley and Princeton in January 1965.

I just noticed this thread.

I seem to recall that the oft-maligned Dave Bliss fired the winning shot in that game. Can someone confirm?

Swampy
I seem to recall that the oft-maligned Dave Bliss fired the winning shot in that game. Can someone confirm?

No, Bliss guarded Bradley and held him in check (two for seventeen) for a half. Then Bradley went wild in the second (30 points total). Winning shot was made by Blaine Aston '67 with three seconds on the clock.

Al DeFlorio

Swampy
I seem to recall that the oft-maligned Dave Bliss fired the winning shot in that game. Can someone confirm?

No, Bliss guarded Bradley and held him in check (two for seventeen) for a half. Then Bradley went wild in the second (30 points total). Winning shot was made by Blaine Aston '67 with three seconds on the clock.

Beat me to it. What a game! I sat on the floor.
Incidentally, Googling Blaine Aston I found a nice write-up of his teammate Greg Morris.

David Harding
Incidentally, Googling Blaine Aston I found a nice write-up of his teammate Greg Morris.

Given that the piece was done as part of black history month, I'm surprised there was no mention of Cornell's center that year, Walt Esdaile. Walt was the second most sought-after recruit on the east coast as a high school senior, behind a guy named Alcindor.

Al DeFlorio

David Harding
Incidentally, Googling Blaine Aston I found a nice write-up of his teammate Greg Morris.

Given that the piece was done as part of black history month, I'm surprised there was no mention of Cornell's center that year, Walt Esdaile. Walt was the second most sought-after recruit on the east coast as a high school senior, behind a guy named Alcindor.

Esdaile figures prominently in the timeline entry for the game.

Swampy
Esdaile figures prominently in the timeline entry for the game.

Thanks, Swampy.