Sioux sue?

[www.uscho.com]

Yeah, I know you're all capable of finding this through other channels, but I wanted to start a thread with this subject.

A little web-rummaging led me to this:

[www.undalumni.org]

Alright! Got any extra cash? Why direct your donations to things like disease research, disaster relief, education, or even athletic equipment and facilities when you can donate to this??

Wheee...replying to my own message.

RichH
Alright! Got any extra cash? Why direct your donations to things like disease research, disaster relief, education, or even athletic equipment and facilities when you can donate to this??

The same reason you donate to any cause - because you think it's important and a worthwhile expenditure. I doubt most people who would contribute to this cause will dollar for dollar deduct the amount from money that they would have donated to cancer research.

Just got this email. Looks like W&M won't take the same course of action as UND. So, NCAA, you've won. Nobody will be forced to face the horror of seeing feathers in the W&M athletics logo.

October 10, 2006


Dear Fellow Members of the William & Mary Community:

I write concerning the National Collegiate Athletic Association's dispute with the College over our nickname and logo.

During the past several months, the NCAA has reviewed William & Mary's athletic insignia to determine whether they constitute a violation of Association standards. On the more important front, the Committee concluded that the College's use of the term "Tribe" reflects our community's sense of shared commitment and common purpose. Accordingly, it will remain our nickname. The presence of two feathers on the logo, though, was ruled potentially "hostile and abusive." We appealed that determination. The decision was sustained and has become final. We must now decide whether to institute legal action against the NCAA or begin the process of altering our logo.

I am compelled to say, at the outset, how powerfully ironic it is for the College of William & Mary to face sanction for athletic transgression at the hands of the NCAA. The Association has applied its mascot standards in ways so patently inconsistent and arbitrary as to demean the entire undertaking. Beyond this, William & Mary is widely acknowledged to be a principal exemplar of the NCAA's purported, if unrealized, ideals.

Not only are our athletic programs intensely competitive, but according to the Association's own Academic Progress Reports, the College ranks fifth among all institutions of higher learning in scholastic excellence. Each year, we graduate approximately 95% of our senior student athletes. During the past decade, two William and Mary athletes have been named Rhodes Scholars and 42 elected to membership in Phi Beta Kappa, the national honorary society founded at the College in 1776. Meanwhile, across the country, in the face of massive academic underperformance, embarrassing misbehaviors on and off the field, and grotesque commercialization of intercollegiate athletics, the NCAA has proven hapless, or worse. It is galling that a university with such a consistent and compelling record of doing things the right way is threatened with punishment by an organization whose house, simply put, is not in order.

Still, in consultation with our Board of Visitors, I have determined that I am unwilling to sue the NCAA to further press our claims. There are three reasons for my decision. I'll explain them in order.

First, failing to adhere to the NCAA logo ruling would raise the substantial possibility that William & Mary athletes would be foreclosed from competing at the level their attainments and preparations merit. Two years ago, for example, we hosted a thrilling semifinal national championship football game against James Madison University. At present, we are barred from welcoming such a competition to Williamsburg -- in football or any other sport. I believe it is our obligation to open doors of opportunity and challenge for our students, not to close them. I will not make our athletes pay for our broader disagreements with a governing association. We have also consulted with our coaches and student athletic advisory council on the matter. They are of the same mind.

Second, given the well-known challenges that this and other universities face -- in assuring access to world-class education, in supporting the research and teaching efforts of our faculties, and in financing and constructing twenty-first-century laboratories and facilities -- I am loath to divert further energies and resources to an expensive and perhaps multi-faceted lawsuit over an athletic logo. Governing requires the setting of priorities. And our fiercest challenges reside at the core of our mission. I know, of course, that more than one member of our understandably disgruntled community would likely be willing to help finance litigation against the NCAA. Those dollars are better spent in scholarship programs.

Third, the College of William & Mary is one of the most remarkable universities in the world. It was a national treasure even before there was a nation to treasure it. I am unwilling to allow it to become the symbol and lodestar for a prolonged struggle over Native American imagery that will likely be miscast and misunderstood -- to the detriment of the institution. Our challenge is greatness. Our defining purpose is rooted in the highest ideals of human progress, achievement, service, and dignity. Those are the hallmarks of the College of William & Mary. They will remain so.

I know this decision will disappoint some among us. I am confident, however, that it is the correct course for the College. We are required to hold fast to our values whether the NCAA does so or not. In the weeks ahead, we will begin an inclusive process to consider options for an altered university logo. I invite you to participate. And I am immensely grateful for your efforts and energies on behalf of the College.

Go Tribe. Hark upon the gale.

Sincerely,


Gene R. Nichol
President
College of William & Mary

Dear Fellow Members of the William & Mary Community:

I wish they had written "Dear Members of the Tribe." Then maybe they could have resolved this dilemma:

On the more important front, the Committee concluded that the College's use of the term "Tribe" reflects our community's sense of shared commitment and common purpose. Accordingly, it will remain our nickname. The presence of two feathers on the logo, though, was ruled potentially "hostile and abusive."

by changing the logo to, say, tfillin, a circumsized penis or a change purse full of pennies.

A little wordy, but all in all a reasonable response. In a nutshell, they find the ruling unreasonable, but understand that going to court over an athletic logo is silly. A nice contrast with the bombastic pomposity coming from UND's president. Of course, W&M doesn't have to deal with the postmortem demands of a neo-nazi benefactor...

Thank god some one else views this how I do.

jtwcornell91
In a nutshell, they find the ruling unreasonable, but understand that going to court over an athletic logo is silly.

It's equally silly for the NCAA to prevent a team from participating in or hosting tournaments because of a logo. So in your opinion the right thing to do is to just give in to the NCAA's institutional silliness?

KeithK

jtwcornell91
In a nutshell, they find the ruling unreasonable, but understand that going to court over an athletic logo is silly.

It's equally silly for the NCAA to prevent a team from participating in or hosting tournaments because of a logo. So in your opinion the right thing to do is to just give in to the NCAA's institutional silliness?

This isn't the civil rights movement of the 1960s. Fighting silliness with more silliness is just a waste of resources.

These are educational institutions. Wasting time and money on this is practically criminal. On the same note, the NCAA wasting time and money on this is ridiculous, when they should be regulating academics vs. athletics. Not that they do a good job with that..........

I think the Sioux suing is not completely ridiculous, the NCAA has begun this political correctness crusade which is ridiculous and that also ends up costing money for UND or W&M eithear way. If they abide by the decision they incur costs in divising new nicknames, logos, and attempering their facilities (ie take away all Sioux references), while if they sue they incur legal costs (which UND alumni are paying from a separate fund since the school is not authorized to use their own funds). So suing to me just seems to have more benefits than abiding by this silly PC crusade.

Don't those alumni have something better to spend their money on? New buildings? More faculty? Scholarships for needy students?

they are using their money and influence to advance their interests. could it be used better? probably. is it wrong or ridiculous to be used for this issue? no.

Omie
If they abide by the decision they incur costs in divising new nicknames, logos, and attempering their facilities (ie take away all Sioux references),

Given that they put all of those little logos in REA so they could make this argument, it gets zero sympathy from me.

This just in:

NCAA DETERMINES THAT THE COLOR RED IS TOO COMMUNIST, BEARS ARE TOO FRIGHTENING.

(Or insert some other ridiculous ruling)

What do you as an alumnus and fan do?

Maybe you can empathize with UND a little. Their reaction might not be the most appropriate, but it is their tradition that is being attacked.

In case you missed it:

NCAA Postpones Discussion of Literacy Rule to Spend More Time Objecting to Feathers: Often the NCAA looks the other way as big schools make only token attempts to educate D-I football and men's basketball scholarship athletes. But put a feather in your cap and you're asking for trouble! Recently the NCAA ruled that the feathers on the William & Mary athletic logo must be removed because they are offensive. We're not talking about disparaging caricatures of American Indians, which are indeed offensive; the William & Mary logo contains only images of feathers. Has the NCAA actually found one single person anywhere on Earth who claims to be offended by a drawing of feathers? Maybe birds were offended! Then again, the NCAA has a reason to want to get even with William & Mary: This academics-oriented college plays in Division I and graduates its athletes, thus creating uncomfortable comparisons for the NCAA's money-factory schools. In the most recent NCAA stats, William & Mary graduated 98 percent of its Division I-AA football players and 92 percent of its Division I men's basketball players. Hey sports studs, want to attend a major university without going to class? Chances are you will get away with it. But should you draw a feather, the wrath of Khan will descend upon you.

[sports.espn.go.com]

Ben Rocky 04
Don't those alumni have something better to spend their money on? New buildings? More faculty? Scholarships for needy students?

Don't you have something better to do with your time than posting on a forum dedicated to kids with knives strapped to their feet? Shuoldn't you be out helping disadvantaged children or working in the inner cities or something? Shouldn't I?

People spend time and money on things they care about. The includes sports. The logos and traditions are part of what people care about. Nothing unusual about that. The fact that you happen to disagree with them on this issue doesn't make it any more or less reasonable to care.

Yes, it’s their right, but I see this as a sign of college sports becoming more important than the college education itself [and on a side note, this trend is already gone too far with regard to high school sports, too]. The note from ESPN that Chris '03 posted is current and accurate on this trend, and I fear the Ivy schools and our compatriots who view college sports as something that armatures play to add to their education is a notion that is fading away faster and faster in our society.

College pride is all well and good, I've got more than most (I'm quite batshit crazy for Cornell). Interest in college sports teams is also well and good (I've spent 5 minutes on the phone today trying to find a bar to watch CU/Sucks game on Nov 11 here in Cochise County, Arizona) but I see this as going to far. Move on guys, its time to fund a new dorm or endow a faculty position or something.

[by armatures, i meant amateurs. the typo will remain in honor of Krose's wonderful futurama reference]

Ben Rocky 04
as something that armatures play

You mean like the Robot League Blernsball?

Kyle

I was a fan of the Swedish Meatballs, but only before steroid injection became mandatory. Damn my typos!

Round 1, Englestadt.

While I'm against the whole idea of Indian mascots, the NCAA's selective enforcement is a joke. Seeing Florida State's "Indian" in full warpaint come onto the field the other night before the Wafe Forest game and plant the flaming spear -- all of which was deemed exempt from the policy by the NCAA -- shows again that the big athletic powers get their way, while a small school like UND gets the shaft.

scoop85
While I'm against the whole idea of Indian mascots, the NCAA's selective enforcement is a joke. Seeing Florida State's "Indian" in full warpaint come onto the field the other night before the Wafe Forest game and plant the flaming spear -- all of which was deemed exempt from the policy by the NCAA -- shows again that the big athletic powers get their way, while a small school like UND gets the shaft.

Well, they were deemed "exempt" when all the remaining recognized Seminole tribes signed off on them keeping their nickname. One of the recognized Sioux tribes did not sign off on such a proclamation, thus the NCAA ruling. It is interesting because in Engelstad's gift for the arena there was a stipulation that they not change the nickname, lest they pay back the gift (what do you expect from a nazi sympathizer). Of course, that stupid tomahawk chop still has to be the most rednecked, offensive thing I have ever seen.

ajec1

scoop85
While I'm against the whole idea of Indian mascots, the NCAA's selective enforcement is a joke. Seeing Florida State's "Indian" in full warpaint come onto the field the other night before the Wafe Forest game and plant the flaming spear -- all of which was deemed exempt from the policy by the NCAA -- shows again that the big athletic powers get their way, while a small school like UND gets the shaft.

Well, they were deemed "exempt" when all the remaining recognized Seminole tribes signed off on them keeping their nickname. One of the recognized Sioux tribes did not sign off on such a proclamation, thus the NCAA ruling. It is interesting because in Engelstad's gift for the arena there was a stipulation that they not change the nickname, lest they pay back the gift (what do you expect from a nazi sympathizer). Of course, that stupid tomahawk chop still has to be the most rednecked, offensive thing I have ever seen.

Rutgers has a chop cheer for its resurrected football team. The coach says the chop is as in chopping wood, the metaphor for their efforts and season, he says. Since Rutgers doesn't have an Indian-prior-name issue, the chop shouldn't raise eyebrows. (Aside: From here on out, Rutgers needs to win the rest of its games but not do well enough to actually make the BCS title game, in which they would get scalped. Better to be seeded sixth, play in BCS Kohler Bowl, win it 35-28, and let the alums argue for decades about how, if they'd only had the chance to play Ohio State ... )

ajec1
Well, they were deemed "exempt" when all the remaining recognized Seminole tribes signed off on them keeping their nickname. One of the recognized Sioux tribes did not sign off on such a proclamation, thus the NCAA ruling. It is interesting because in Engelstad's gift for the arena there was a stipulation that they not change the nickname, lest they pay back the gift (what do you expect from a nazi sympathizer). Of course, that stupid tomahawk chop still has to be the most rednecked, offensive thing I have ever seen.

Whatever else one can say about Engelstadt, I'm glad he put the restrictions on his arena gift. If that's what's required to make a school stand up against silly NCAA policies then I'm all for it.

This thing won't be settled for at least two more rounds since I assume there's a good chance that whoever loses in April will appeal. One thing we can be sure of is that the Sioux skaters will get to wear their logo in the tournament this year if they make it.

ajec1
It is interesting because in Engelstad's gift for the arena there was a stipulation that they not change the nickname, lest they pay back the gift (what do you expect from a nazi sympathizer).

My (limited) understanding was that the original gift contained no stipulation about the nickname. Then during the construction of the arena there was an on-campus protest about the name, and Englestadt at that point sent a letter to UND saying that he would retract the funding if the name was changed. The protest never led to anything, so the issue was never resolved and the arena was completed as planned, which is where we are today.

And the Seminoles okaying the nickname is the biggest joke of all. FSU pays the tribes big $$$ out of their ample merchandise revenues, so of course the tribes voted for it. It still comes down to the fact that the big (rich) athletic departments can get around it and the smaller ones can't - completely unfair.

Robb
And the Seminoles okaying the nickname is the biggest joke of all. FSU pays the tribes big $$$ out of their ample merchandise revenues, so of course the tribes voted for it. It still comes down to the fact that the big (rich) athletic departments can get around it and the smaller ones can't - completely unfair.

Add the fact that the Florida legislature was ready to fund any legal action they could think of to fight the NCAA on this. They would have put up the best legal battle money can buy (and I don't mean anything snide by that). The NCAA may have won, but it would have been a pyrrhic victory.

For those interested, or incredible bored, as noted here the filings in the case are at: [www.ag.state.nd.us]

This hasn't hit the front pages of USCHO, CHN, or INCH yet, but the update is that UND can keep the name for now and has three years to campaign for tribal support.

I find the opposite slant of each headline interesting:

[www.usatoday.com]

[www.grandforksherald.com]

FYI, the Grand Forks Herald requires registration.

Ron His Horse Is Thunder, chairman of the Standing Rock Sioux Tribe

Man, I wish that guy played goalie. Give me a space!

Section A Banshee
FYI, the Grand Forks Herald requires registration.

Huh. So it does. Well, I got there by going to the main page, and the story is displayed prominently today. I'll just post the story here:

UND gets nickname reprieve
By Joseph Marks, Herald Staff Writer
Published Friday, October 26, 2007

A settlement proposal in UND's lawsuit against the NCAA reportedly involves a three-year "cooling off period" during which the school must either win tribal approval for its Fighting Sioux nickname or retire it.

UND is suing the NCAA over its ban of American Indian nicknames and logos in postseason play. If UND can convince the state's Sioux tribes to support its nickname, the school could continue to use it in NCAA tournaments. Similar deals have been struck by the Florida State Seminoles and the Central Michigan Chippewas.

One state tribal leader, however, says it's unlikely his tribe will endorse the nickname at the end of the three-year period.

The settlement could be approved as soon as this morning in a special meeting of the North Dakota Board of Higher Education. The proposal was outlined recently by Attorney General Wayne Stenehjem for the chairpeople of North Dakota's two Sioux tribes at a meeting in Bismarck, according to Standing Rock Sioux Tribal Chairman Ron His Horse is Thunder.

Stenehjem confirmed Thursday evening that he met two weeks ago with His Horse is Thunder and Spirit Lake Tribal Chairwoman Myra Pearson, but would not discuss details of the meeting. He did say that he'd had similar discussions with several people across the state in recent weeks.

Members of the Herald Editorial Board confirmed that they also met with Stenehjem about three weeks ago but would not reveal details about the discussion because it was "off the record."

Stenehjem will meet with the Board of Higher Education in a closed session this morning at the Alerus Center in Grand Forks, after which the board may act to approve a settlement agreement, according to an agenda from the university system office.

State board members would not answer questions Thursday about the details of a possible settlement. Student member Nate Martindale speculated that any settlement would have to include the NCAA admitting that its claim that UND is hostile and abusive to American Indians is incorrect, but would not comment further.

Shifting the burden

His Horse is Thunder said he told Stenehjem during their meeting that he does not support the three-year cooling off period and does not expect his tribal council to alter its resolution opposing the nickname during that time.

"I told him I didn't want the tribes to have to agree to the cooling-off period," His Horse is Thunder said. "I told him we're not going to change our position or withdraw our resolution saying we oppose the use of the nickname. . . . His hope is during the next three years we'll reconsider."

His Horse is Thunder said he thinks the proposed settlement unfairly shifts the burden of retiring the nickname from UND and the state to the Standing Rock and Spirit Lake tribes.

"It takes the onus off him and puts it right back in my lap," he said. "They'll continue to try to get tribal members to go to UND and watch hockey games and treat them to great sky boxes. . . . They'll treat them really nice and get a few to come back and put political pressure on the tribal council."

His Horse is Thunder said Pearson echoed his own position during their meeting with Stenehjem.

"Her reaction was along the same lines as mine," he said. "It's trying to buy Indians by treating them nicely and giving them alcohol at hockey games that she objected to."

Last holdout

Out of 20 schools originally subject to the nickname restrictions, five have been allowed to retain their American Indian imagery by winning the approval of a nearby namesake tribe's tribal council, similar to what is proposed at UND.

Of the 15 remaining schools, 13 have agreed to drop their American Indian imagery, and the Bradley University Braves in Peoria, Ill., were placed on a five-year watch list. UND is the only school still fighting the nickname mandate.

UND is funding its lawsuit with private donations to a UND Alumni Association-managed fund. The school's legal costs stood at about $850,000 in early October.

The NCAA has not released the cost of its litigation. Grand Forks County District Judge Lawrence Jahnke, who is presiding over the case, said this week that more than $2 million in attorney's fees have been expended in the case to date.

Marks reports on higher education. Reach him at (701) 780-1105, (800) 477-6572, ext. 105; or jmarks@gfherald.com">jmarks@gfherald.com.

4% of the world's population, 75% of its lawyers.

Some of the specifics:
[blog.siouxsports.com]

UND gets a pass on removing "historical images, images embedded in architecture, items which will ultimately be replaced because of wear and tear". So it looks like their bullshit tactic of plastering the Sioux logo all over the Ralph means they get to keep it there, although I suppose it's failed as a pretext for not changing the nickname.

jtwcornell91
Some of the specifics:
[blog.siouxsports.com]

UND gets a pass on removing "historical images, images embedded in architecture, items which will ultimately be replaced because of wear and tear". So it looks like their bullshit tactic of plastering the Sioux logo all over the Ralph means they get to keep it there, although I suppose it's failed as a pretext for not changing the nickname.

For all of that they used Master Card, but just seeing them having to admit their wrongdoing would be priceless.