Pepsi Arena - barely occupied for ECACs?

Officially, the attendance for the ECAC title event was announced as 7093. That has to be tickets sold in advance and maybe, maybe not used. The arena has a capcity of 6000 to 17,500 (17,500 for concerts). The lower half is 6,500 which is what the River Rats cite. (Does anybody have the upper deck/lower deck seating total for ice hockey? It's not well publicized.) [edit: it's about 13,500 for hockey]

Do we think the fans in attendance Saturday would have filled Lynah Rink? It seemed as if the upper deck had a couple hundred people and the lower area was, what, half full? I'd love to know the ticket count of people admitted into the arena after the conclusion of the first game. That plus a couple hundred Colgate/Dartmouth fans who stayed on, or Cornell fans who watched both (Harvard has none) would be the body count for the title game.

This is a far cry from the old ECAC tournaments in Boston when BU, UNH, BC, etcetera, were in our league.

Regardless of actual numbers, what it felt like was this: The hockey was exciting, but it didn't have the full-house electricty of the Frozen Four, the old ECAC, or some of the NCAA regionals. Or Lynah for that matter. Or, alas, college hoops. Great that you can get a seat, and get a good seat for that matter ... but lousy for excitement once you're in the building.

We moved from Lake Placid to Albany because the central location and larger rink was supposed to allow the championship to grow. Anyone who's been to both want to compare the atmospheres four years down the road?

jtwcornell91
Anyone who's been to both want to compare the atmospheres four years down the road?

I feel a whine coming on.

I think we more than would have filed Lynah. The issue will always be, regardles of location, which teams are playing.

If we had been playing RPI, Clarkson, St. Lawrence or maybe even Union, you've got to believe there would be a much bigger crowd on hand. And don't forget that when the tourney moved, Vermont was part of teh equation and they would have been there in force as well. Atmosphere takes two sets of fans to create in a tourney game. If Harvard brought as many fans as we had, the lower bowl would have been pretty damn full.

A close game helps too. It's not an Albany example, but in Providence in 03 for the NCAA first two rounds there was a fantastic atmosphere, especially in our second round game. I'd say there werent any more fans there on that afternoon than at the Pepsi yesterday, but we had a barn-burner of a game. Low-scoring one goal game - overtime wasn't it?

Tourney atmosphere should be one of the last considerations. Lake Placid is quaint, but it's a real haul for about half the league to get to, and it's expensive to stay there. Like Albany or not, but it's far more central and cheaper and yes, it's a better arena. If you want more fans to show up, then find a way to get a bigger rink in a place that people actually want to go. Play it in Boston like it used to be. (yeah I know it's expensive and further for a lot of teams blah blah.) But at least it's a place where there is something to do and that has hockey fans. Use BC's rink...it holds 7,000 plus. This is just one example. Albany is about as good a compromise as you are going to get if you want 10,000+ seats. Feel free to make other locational suggestions.

And from a Cornell-centric view, you'll get a much bigger cornell fan turnout anywhere OTHER than Lake Placid. It's just too far from NYC and Boston, where some of our biggest alum bases are.

My 2 cents.

Arik

Putting the ecacs in Lake placid was like what holding the WCHA's in Aspen would be. Ridiculous.

abmarks
Putting the ecacs in Lake placid was like what holding the WCHA's in Aspen would be. Ridiculous.

I would like to see the latter happen, just to piss off the gopher fans!!!

They use that same math to count attendees that is used at the RIP games. I think the RIP folks think that if they announce a larger crowd then the amount of gambling on the 50/50 will be proportionally higher. It's an engineering estimate.

And, of course, RIP is the "Ghost Host" for the ECACs and exaggerate the attendance for consistency.

I was talking with somebody after the game, and they estimated the hockey capacity at 13,500 for Pepsi Arena.

They also estimated in 2004 they had 10,000 people for the East Regional (Maine, Sucks, Ohio State, Wisconsin).

The hockey capacity is slightly under 15,000.

[www.uscho.com]

6,489 showed up for the Championship in 2004 between Clarkson and Harvard. It is clear that Harvard does not help attendance.

The Albany River Rats have averaged slightly under 4000 fans (3984 in 2005, 3971 in 2006) [sportsillustrated.cnn.com] and they are changing affiliates for next year.

abmarks
If you want more fans to show up, then find a way to get a bigger rink in a place that people actually want to go. Play it in Boston like it used to be. (yeah I know it's expensive and further for a lot of teams blah blah.) But at least it's a place where there is something to do and that has hockey fans. Use BC's rink...it holds 7,000 plus. This is just one example. Albany is about as good a compromise as you are going to get if you want 10,000+ seats. Feel free to make other locational suggestions.

Suddenly, I'm longing for a move to Madison Square Garden.

JDeafv
I was talking with somebody after the game, and they estimated the hockey capacity at 13,500 for Pepsi Arena.

They also estimated in 2004 they had 10,000 people for the East Regional (Maine, Sucks, Ohio State, Wisconsin).

Hockey capacity is right around 11,000 at Pepsi. That is why they won't get another NCAA final. The 2001 attendance for the NCAAa will get you the exact figure. After the 2001 tourney the Pepsi folks wanted to be condidered for another final four and vowed to add seating capacity. I assume that would mean sky boxes - literally - hanging from the girders. Perhaps those in the ceiling seats would be offered prizes if they could do a high wire act. It sure would beat the "push the cardboard cake on the ice" contest.

There haven't been any significant changes since 2001.

If they get close to 10,000 for the regional then 5000+ will be making the trip from Orono and thereabouts. At least we'll have a Badger and a Buckeye in the house.

13,667 apparently:

[www.uscho.com]

Still, yes, too small for a FF, as is anything that's not an NHL arena now.

DeltaOne81
13,667 apparently:

[www.uscho.com]

Still, yes, too small for a FF, as is anything that's not an NHL arena now.

Or NFL Field....

marty

JDeafv
I was talking with somebody after the game, and they estimated the hockey capacity at 13,500 for Pepsi Arena.

They also estimated in 2004 they had 10,000 people for the East Regional (Maine, Sucks, Ohio State, Wisconsin).

Hockey capacity is right around 11,000 at Pepsi. That is why they won't get another NCAA final. The 2001 attendance for the NCAAa will get you the exact figure. After the 2001 tourney the Pepsi folks wanted to be condidered for another final four and vowed to add seating capacity. I assume that would mean sky boxes - literally - hanging from the girders. Perhaps those in the ceiling seats would be offered prizes if they could do a high wire act. It sure would beat the "push the cardboard cake on the ice" contest.

There haven't been any significant changes since 2001.

If they get close to 10,000 for the regional then 5000+ will be making the trip from Orono and thereabouts. At least we'll have a Badger and a Buckeye in the house.

Stats from 2001 BC-North Dakota title game in Albany say 13,252 attended. [bceagles.collegesports.com] Besides, if total capacity is around 17,500 seated and hockey capacity is ~11,000, could you really get 6,500 chairs on the floor? That's about 3 square feet per person. I'm having a hard time believing you could get 4,000 chairs in a 200x85 space (17,000 square feet) unless the dozen (?) rows of seats on metal bleachers behind the glass but in front of the permanent stands convert to even more seats for a concert. (Edit: See adjacent post from USCHO game box score saying 13,667 attended.)


Albany would be nuts trying to add another couple thousand seats for, what, a handful of events each year. Maybe they think they'll get Springsteen to divert from Meadowlands Stadium?

Pepsi Arena
Owned by Albany County and operated by SMG, the world's largest private management firm for public assembly facilities, the Pepsi Arena has an adaptable seating capacity between 6,000 and 17,500. Since Frank Sinatra christened the building on January 30, 1990, more than seven million patrons have walked through the turnstiles. [www.pepsiarena.com]

Lake Placid is a beautiful, wonderful, amazing town, and I am thrilled that I got to see an ECAC title weekend there. Even with the result.


But on the other hand, lets not romanticize it too much. There were hardly enough hotel rooms and some people had to stay a good distance away. The hotels were alright, but the average was probably dingy around the worst of Albany, and the prices were jacked up for the ECAC weekend.

And lets not forgot the week-in-advance cancellation rule. So that if you wanted a room in town, you had to book in advance, *hope* your team made it, and if they didn't, you couldn't cancel. Maybe that's why there were as many people as there were - cause they all had hotel rooms they couldn't cancel.

Parking was a major pain around game time, esp on Saturday. It just couldn't hold that many people.


Lake Placid is an amazing, historic place, but lets not forget about all the problems associated with such a small town - the fact that they had the Olympics there still boggles my mind. Not the least of which is that it's about 3 hours from even the closest other places - where as Albany seems to be about 3 hours from everywhere.


The WCHA doesn't hold their tourney in Aspen, the CCHA doesn't have theirs on the Upper Peninsular of Michigan, and Hockey East doesn't hold theirs in Vermont's Northeast Kingdown, as beautiful as spots in those areas probably are. Albany may not be a magical city, but I really think its not a bad city, and the area around the Pepsi and State St/Crown Plaza/NY State Plaza/Capital Building is pretty nice. And lord knows that St. Paul, Detroit, and Boston have plenty detractors.

What about the Hartford Civic Center? It once hosted a winter college hockey tournament, and is closer to alumni populations in NYC and Boston.

nshapiro
What about the Hartford Civic Center? It once hosted a winter college hockey tournament, and is closer to alumni populations in NYC and Boston.

Anything that's good for Boston-area Cornell alumni is also good for Boston-area ECACHL schools who have been faring all too well in the tournament. Albany is pretty much equidistant from NYC and Boston. If the subject is charm, sophistication, and panache, trading Albany for Hartford doesn't buy you much.

Madison Square Garden, now that would be a place to have it.

abmarks
Putting the ecacs in Lake placid was like what holding the WCHA's in Aspen would be. Ridiculous.

Your two cents were sensible. You should have left out your third cent. Lake Placid was a fantastic site for the ECACs. It fell victim to logistics, not logic. Albany has all the romance of a tuna cannery and all the convenience of a quickie mart. When a sufficient amount of money is involved, more people will rally for the latter than the former. That's why it won. Same reason McDonalds, Walmart, and Budweiser won. It's reality, but I wouldn't call it good company.

Trotsky
Your two cents were sensible. You should have left out your third cent. Lake Placid was a fantastic site for the ECACs. It fell victim to logistics, not logic. Albany has all the romance of a tuna cannery and all the convenience of a quickie mart. When a sufficient amount of money is involved, more people will rally for the latter than the former. That's why it won. Same reason McDonalds, Walmart, and Budweiser won. It's reality, but I wouldn't call it good company.

And the whine, while delayed some, has predictably arrived.

I guess I stand corrected, but then I don't understand the NCAA requiring that the venue have at least 14,000 capacity for hockey finals. Maybe I have that number wrong, too!

I met someone at the regionals in Providence who enlightened me concerning one facet of Lake Placid. I don't remember whether he was an alum of an ECACHL school or just a fan but I think he was just a guy who enjoys college hockey.

He lived somewhere near Boston and the trip to Albany was fine but never considered Lake Placid. Imagine driving nearly 3 hours to Albany and then heading north to Keene and then over the winding roads to LP. Fine if you plan on staying the night, but not all fans do.

I actually enjoyed some facets of the game Saturday. Four friends from '74 and '73 made the trip from NYC (and towns nearby) to meet for dinner and the game. The camaraderie was a pleasant counterpoint to the pain of watching the game. They were home sometime early Sunday morning.

Albany is the perfect spot for the ECAC tournament, geographically. The problem is Albany is Albany.

Even then, compared to Boston, how many bars can you hit in one night? How much do you want to pay for a room? How many different restaurants can you eat in? And most of all, of the 48 hours you spend at a hockey weekend, when you subtract out driving, eating, sleeping, watching the game, or getting ready to do one of those things, how much time is left? You've only got about six hours where Albany has to entertain you.

OK, Boston has thousands more good looking women ... who will all shoot you down anyhow. (Or thousands more men who'll hit on you.) To paraphrase Woody Alle -- never mind, I'm on quotation probation. I'll PM Ari with the quote and you can PM him.

A comparison report on Green Bay;s attractions would be nice, a week from now.

billhoward
A comparison report on Green Bay;s attractions would be nice, a week from now.

I understand they have cheese there.

Beeeej

billhoward
To paraphrase Woody Alle -- never mind, I'm on quotation probation. I'll PM Ari with the quote and you can PM him.

Geez, Bill. You can't just bait the hook like that and then yank it away.

Yes he can. YES HE CAN!

Trotsky

abmarks
Putting the ecacs in Lake placid was like what holding the WCHA's in Aspen would be. Ridiculous.

Your two cents were sensible. You should have left out your third cent. Lake Placid was a fantastic site for the ECACs. It fell victim to logistics, not logic. Albany has all the romance of a tuna cannery and all the convenience of a quickie mart. When a sufficient amount of money is involved, more people will rally for the latter than the former. That's why it won. Same reason McDonalds, Walmart, and Budweiser won. It's reality, but I wouldn't call it good company.

Trotsky- good point. I'd agree that the move to Albany must have been made mostly on the financial package to the league.

However, I was speaking from a FAN perspective when calling Lake Placid ludicrous. It sucked as a location...see Delta's post above, he laid out all the logistical problems (and costs) that made it a horrific location as far as attending goes. It's a nice rink, sure, but time and money (ie my time and money) matter more than the rink.

If I want ambiance, etc, I'll go on vacation in Tuscany or find a palm tree to sit under in the Caribbean.

If I want to go see a hockey game, send me where it's cheapest and most convenient for the majority. And where I can park my car. And where I can get a hotel room, or cancel a hotel room. Or better yet, not need a hotel room at all because it's doable as a day trip. Ambiance is just a bonus.

Don't make me spell out the analogy for you

Maybe it doesn't matter to you, but from this poll, it seems like it does to a lot of people:

[elf.elynah.com]

For the ECAC committee that chooses the location, Lake Placid couldn't be more exquisite. Your rooms are booked already and paid for, you are the week's big fish in a small pond (even if the damn pond is 15 feet too wide), you can have nice lunches overlooking Mirror Lake, etcetera.

That's what probably got the stupid NCAA to choose Lake Placid for the 1970 NCAAs back when the rink held 2,000. Too bad they didn't skip Lake Placid and use the 1971 site, Syracuse, both years.

BTW, was there any griping on eLynah in 1970 about the rink being too wide for Ned's tastes?

[q]Or better yet, not need a hotel room at all because it's doable as a day trip.[/q]You can do Lake Placid as a day trip from Ithaca. It may make for one of my worst hockey experiences ever, but it was a day trip. (And we didn't die sliding off the icy mountain roads while racing to get there on time - bonus!)

Beeeej

billhoward
A comparison report on Green Bay;s attractions would be nice, a week from now.

I understand they have cheese there.

Beeeej

On their heads, too.

CowbellGuy
Maybe it doesn't matter to you, but from this poll, it seems like it does to a lot of people:

[elf.elynah.com]

Poll results showed 50/50 for Albany vs. the response of "ah nuts."

How long has that poll been running? Wouldn't a better poll be Lake Placid, Albany, Somewere else?

"Ah Nuts" could be taken to mean "Well, I'm not thrilled with Albany but...it still beats Placid" just as easily as it could mean "Placid forever, screw Albany."

Fuzzy data....

KeithK
[q]Or better yet, not need a hotel room at all because it's doable as a day trip.[/q]You can do Lake Placid as a day trip from Ithaca. It may make for one of my worst hockey experiences ever, but it was a day trip. (And we didn't die sliding off the icy mountain roads while racing to get there on time - bonus!)

But the whole tourney is not a good day trip x 2. At least from Syracuse it's easy to do 2 day trips to Albany. Yeah I could do that to LP but certainly not with my family. Hell, I do Harvard as a day trip sometimes (like this year), but I don't recommend it.

CowbellGuy
Maybe it doesn't matter to you, but from this poll, it seems like it does to a lot of people:

[elf.elynah.com]

You're not trying to tell us that your polls mean something are you?

Jim Hyla

CowbellGuy
Maybe it doesn't matter to you, but from this poll, it seems like it does to a lot of people:

[elf.elynah.com]

You're not trying to tell us that your polls mean something are you?

Pfff... 47% percent of polls are made up on the spot. 83% of people said they knew that.


That said, I think Albany faired well in that poll, with the assumption that it was done shortly after the announcement. Seeing as we had all just experienced the wonderful, glorious splender that was Lake Placid, at least 50% of people having no issue with the move ain't shabby. And while you may say that after people saw how awful Albany is they would have changed their mind, I expect there at *least* an equal amount of people who thought Albany would be dreadful and how think its not a bad location.

Ya know, it'd make an interesting poll in a few weeks

Jim Hyla

KeithK
[q]Or better yet, not need a hotel room at all because it's doable as a day trip.[/q]You can do Lake Placid as a day trip from Ithaca. It may make for one of my worst hockey experiences ever, but it was a day trip. (And we didn't die sliding off the icy mountain roads while racing to get there on time - bonus!)

But the whole tourney is not a good day trip x 2. At least from Syracuse it's easy to do 2 day trips to Albany. Yeah I could do that to LP but certainly not with my family. Hell, I do Harvard as a day trip sometimes (like this year), but I don't recommend it.

I didn't say it made good day trip, whether the multiplier was 1, 2 or 3. Heck, it was an awful day trip! Memorable, but awful.

I vote for Boston........had a blast watching both tourneys (ECAC and Hockey East) back in the Gahden in the early '90's (don't know if this would be feasible anymore given stronger ticket demand from the Hockey East).

Jim Hyla

KeithK
[q]Or better yet, not need a hotel room at all because it's doable as a day trip.[/q]You can do Lake Placid as a day trip from Ithaca. It may make for one of my worst hockey experiences ever, but it was a day trip. (And we didn't die sliding off the icy mountain roads while racing to get there on time - bonus!)

But the whole tourney is not a good day trip x 2. At least from Syracuse it's easy to do 2 day trips to Albany. Yeah I could do that to LP but certainly not with my family. Hell, I do Harvard as a day trip sometimes (like this year), but I don't recommend it.

To some super-fans, you're probably a lousy fan becasue you don't drop all other responsbilities for hockey. Things like kids who play sports on weekends makes it pretty hard to do anything other than long one-day trips. We love Lake Placid becasue we have a place in Keene 15 miles away. But did we go up for the ECACs? Um, more often not. It's a long haul. Once you're there, it's romantic. But the main drag through Lake Placid is now a string of outlet stores. It's Albany with higher gas prices.

RatushnyFan
I vote for Boston........had a blast watching both tourneys (ECAC and Hockey East) back in the Gahden in the early '90's (don't know if this would be feasible anymore given stronger ticket demand from the Hockey East).

Consider the travel distances for the teams:
- Harvard. The SOBs gets to sleep in their own beds.
- Dartmouth. They'd be happy.
- Cornell, 375 miles.
- Colgate, almost 375 miles.
- St. Lawrence, if they'd beaten Harvard and made it (sheesh, the Larries let us down), about two days over 2-lane roads.

billhoward
To some super-fans, you're probably a lousy fan becasue you don't drop all other responsbilities for hockey. Things like kids who play sports on weekends makes it pretty hard to do anything other than long one-day trips. We love Lake Placid becasue we have a place in Keene 15 miles away. But did we go up for the ECACs? Um, more often not. It's a long haul. Once you're there, it's romantic. But the main drag through Lake Placid is now a string of outlet stores. It's Albany with higher gas prices.

How dare you post on this board if you're not willing to drop everything and make it to every Cornell playoff game!Every regular season game too! Priorities, man! The sheer unmitigated gall of some people!


Guess I should stop posting now...

KeithK

billhoward
To some super-fans, you're probably a lousy fan becasue you don't drop all other responsbilities for hockey. Things like kids who play sports on weekends makes it pretty hard to do anything other than long one-day trips. We love Lake Placid becasue we have a place in Keene 15 miles away. But did we go up for the ECACs? Um, more often not. It's a long haul. Once you're there, it's romantic. But the main drag through Lake Placid is now a string of outlet stores. It's Albany with higher gas prices.

How dare you post on this board if you're not willing to drop everything and make it to every Cornell playoff game!Every regular season game too! Priorities, man! The sheer unmitigated gall of some poeple!

Guess I should stop posting now...

Until the weather reports sounded lousy, I was a 50-50 go for the Duke game (lacrosse). That'd be a 800-mile trip in one day, which I've done before, but not with a 2-1/2 hour stop for a lacrosse game in the middle. Last time I did one that far, also into the (South) Carolinas, was the day the law caught up with the Beltway shooter. eLynah chauvinists will realize they had their chance to make the forum a gentler place and blew it ...

But, damn, it does feel good to be able to manage to make ten Cornell hockey games over the course of a year. My kids love the Lynah acoustics and when everyone shouts "Clarkson sucks," they hear even worse. They are still getting acclimated to white clam pizza at Pepe's in New Haven before the Yale / Deertick games. Thank you for that one, Al.

billhoward

RatushnyFan
I vote for Boston........had a blast watching both tourneys (ECAC and Hockey East) back in the Gahden in the early '90's (don't know if this would be feasible anymore given stronger ticket demand from the Hockey East).

Consider the travel distances for the teams:
- Harvard. The SOBs gets to sleep in their own beds.
- Dartmouth. They'd be happy.
- Cornell, 375 miles.
- Colgate, almost 375 miles.
- St. Lawrence, if they'd beaten Harvard and made it (sheesh, the Larries let us down), about two days over 2-lane roads.

Yes, but Harvard might actually get some attendance then (would make for a better atmosphere) and the Faithful were always well represented in Boston. And Colgate, well, I just don't care about their perspective. I thought it was a much better college hockey atmosphere.

RatushnyFan

billhoward

RatushnyFan
I vote for Boston........had a blast watching both tourneys (ECAC and Hockey East) back in the Gahden in the early '90's (don't know if this would be feasible anymore given stronger ticket demand from the Hockey East).

Consider the travel distances for the teams:
- Harvard. The SOBs gets to sleep in their own beds.
- Dartmouth. They'd be happy.
- Cornell, 375 miles.
- Colgate, almost 375 miles.
- St. Lawrence, if they'd beaten Harvard and made it (sheesh, the Larries let us down), about two days over 2-lane roads.

Yes, but Harvard might actually get some attendance then (would make for a better atmosphere) and the Faithful were always well represented in Boston. And Colgate, well, I just don't care about their perspective. I thought it was a much better college hockey atmosphere.

Yes, the old and new Boston Gardens were awesome places for hockey. Greater Boston is the city with the most college hockey in America on any given weekend. But the geo-center of the ECAC(HL) is Albany, or Pittsfield, Mass., or Lime Rock, Conn. (If I really wanted to waste time, I'd do a lat/long lookup of the schools and calcuate the average.) We need to heed Horace Greeley.

billhoward

RatushnyFan

billhoward

RatushnyFan
I vote for Boston........had a blast watching both tourneys (ECAC and Hockey East) back in the Gahden in the early '90's (don't know if this would be feasible anymore given stronger ticket demand from the Hockey East).

Consider the travel distances for the teams:
- Harvard. The SOBs gets to sleep in their own beds.
- Dartmouth. They'd be happy.
- Cornell, 375 miles.
- Colgate, almost 375 miles.
- St. Lawrence, if they'd beaten Harvard and made it (sheesh, the Larries let us down), about two days over 2-lane roads.

Yes, but Harvard might actually get some attendance then (would make for a better atmosphere) and the Faithful were always well represented in Boston. And Colgate, well, I just don't care about their perspective. I thought it was a much better college hockey atmosphere.

Yes, the old and new Boston Gardens were awesome places for hockey. Greater Boston is the city with the most college hockey in America on any given weekend. But the geo-center of the ECAC(HL) is Albany, or Pittsfield, Mass., or Lime Rock, Conn. (If I really wanted to waste time, I'd do a lat/long lookup of the schools and calcuate the average.) We need to heed Horace Greeley.

That, and I suspect it's a heck of a lot cheaper to rent the Pepsi Arena than the Boston Garden.

schoaff
That, and I suspect it's a heck of a lot cheaper to rent the Pepsi Arena than the Boston Garden.

And you don't have that annoying little Hockey East tournament wanting the same dates.

billhoward
Yes, the old and new Boston Gardens were awesome places for hockey.

Speak for yourself, the new "Garden" frankly sucks, the balcony is set waaaaay too far back, the one in the old Garden started 12 rows from the ice (if I remember correctly).
"I knew the Boston Garden, and you sir are no Boston Garden."