copyrights

hey all,

like age, i have run into similar problems with use of copyrights, specifically for the proposed t-shirts. i spoke to the vendor and cornell's bob reese on the phone, and i need to get approval from CU and Harvard if we are going to proceed with getting the shirts printed with their current design. If I can get this approval, it would save me some paperwork to exchange the shirts in an area other than Lynah, due to use of university property forms.

i am in the process of trying to secure the copyright approvals from both schools. if my request is denied, we could always come up with another shirt idea that does not use harvard's name (hopefully cornell wouldn't have a problem endorsing a fan-sponsored shirt, but you never know.) i guess we'll cross that bridge when we come to it. thank you to everyone who has expressed interest in the shirts thus far. i will keep you updated on my progress with copyrights etc. as new information comes in.

-mike

Another option might be to replace the official school names with non-copyrighted nicknames. You might even be able to get away with Red @ Crimson.

Cornell is known as The Big Red Tape for a reason - although I don't know whether or not they'll deny your request, I *do* know that the ultimate team had some trouble getting "Cornell Ultimate" shirts (just shirts for sale, as opposed to the actual jerseys, from what I understand) because of the copyright issues. I think the problem was not permission but time - it would take too long for the University to process the request to get the shirts in a reasonable amount of time.

Didn't someone print up a Cornell/Harvard shirt with a Love Story reference? Talk about copyrighted material. . .

Maybe you just need to find a less scrupulous printer.

Dude, just find a shady t-shirt maker at the mall or out of Ithaca or something. A lot of t-shirt makers will do anything for a buck.

Or you could do what I did on my license plate and substitute a 0 (zero) for the o. In fact, I wonder if the person with the true CORNELL1 plate got approval from CU.

thanks for the support. as i stated, i was basically threatened with lawsuits from both universities. reps from cornell and harvard have e-mailed me in the past day, and i responded with a request for use of the names. if someone else wants to get these printed, i would be happy to buy a few. but being that i am now actually aware of the copyright laws, and have been threatened with 2 lawsuits, i'm not about to go dashing to print illegal shirts.

out of curiosity, for the prelaw (and JD) alumni, what responsibilities do i have in obtaining a copyright, versus the responsibilities of the vendor? if a "seedy" vendor were to print something without requesting a copyright, does this become my fault if i were to sell the shirts (off campus/shipping)? i was under the impression that i am responsible, even if some vendor doesn't ask for a notice of copyright approval (which deters me from getting them printed in this way). am i correct?

-mike

Additionally,

what is the legality in using:

C0RNELL (0 instead of O)
H@rvard

if I cannot get approval?

-mike

If you are going to corrupt Harvard (sucks)...I much prefer Hahvahd (still sucks no matter how you spell it).

Is "corrupt Harvard" a redundancy?

either redundant or a fait accompli

Assume that I know how to write a disclaimer that sufficiently informs you that I'm only offering my opinion and you shouldn't construe it as legal advice, and that I put such a disclaimer right here. Okay, good.

The printer is merely covering his own ass when he reminds you of the requirement to obtain permission to use copyrighted and trademarked materials on a shirt and/or refuses to print such a job without you obtaining permission. In my view - the fact a printer doesn't remind you of that requirement doesn't tend to save you from any consequences of using that material without permission. The situation would fall pretty squarely under the "ignorance of the law is no excuse" category, IMHO.

As for "C0rnell" and "H@rvard" - the copyright and trademark owners could probably make a very strong argument that it was obvious enough to you and your potential customers what those words were intended to reprepsent that you're infringing upon their intellectual property even though you spelled the words wrong.

"CornHell" and "Hahvahd," on the other hand, might allow you to argue that you're safe under the category of parody. But Cornell and Harvard could, and would, answer that claim by showing that you had originally planned to print the shirts using the correct names, and all you really intended to do with the misspellings was save yourself from the permissions process (or if permission was denied, attempt to save yourself from potential lawsuits).

That's the opinion of a JD candidate, and worth every single penny you've paid for it.

Beeeej

i am currently waiting on t-shirt approval from harvard. i was told that cornell will not endorse the shirts unless harvard does so first.

if harvard is unwilling to endorse the shirts, i will ask about them about the legality of hahvahd, h@rvard, etc. of course, then we would have to edit "cornell" out as well. in speaking to bob reese and mr gutenberg in cornell administration this morning, c0rnell is also a violation. CU and Big Red are trademarked as well. oh, and since the website is hockey.CORNELL.edu, it was brought to my attention that even if I made a t-shirt, I am not able to advertise it on the university server.

we should be lucky we are even allowed to say the college's name on campus.

-mike

You can put a page on my off-campus server advertising it with a link to the page here if you want

Are you telling me of all the other CU's out there. . .Cornell owns the right to the use of the phrase "CU."

WoW. . .it's good to know our money is going to places that really matter.
(I wonder if Clarkson knows about this. . .they may owe Cornell some royalties)

So this means that that shirt (formerly?) sold in collegetown with all the Ivys and why Cornell was better got permission from all 8 schools?? Wow!

Note: despite my previous rant I'm not mad a Cornell for this particular thing. I do believe this is a valid trademark concern unlike the bear.

Actually, they had a version of that shirt for each ivy and it is legal.

Can anyone tell me if Cornell TM owns the rights to all red squares??? I was going to use one in a project next week, but I don't want to break the Code of Conduct.

Just a thought, but "Cornell University" may be trademark by our alma mater, but "Cornell" probably isn't. I recall there is a Cornell College out somewhere, and I doubt they pay royalties to Cornell University.

yeah, but I'm talking about the new red Square?

Well I am going to go ahead and out myself here (I knew I would have to eventually)...

I go to law school at Harvard, and good friggin luck getting their permission. They won't even let the students use "Harvard" or even "HLS" on our class t-shirts.

At this point, it just seems like too much trouble to get both "Cornell" and "Harvard" on the shirts. However, I can't imagine either school having a problem with "Big Red" (or "Let's Go Red" or the like) and "Crimson". I know Cornell isn't the only Red/Big Red school out there, at the very least, so Cornell isn't necessarily implied in the shirt (unless one knows the reference to the rivalry).

Trademarked. Both of 'em.

Believe me, everywhere your mind is taking you to think of how to get around this issue, the University Relations people have almost certainly been there first.

Beeeej

Dammit! All right, that's it. We need to do this illegally, and we can't distribute the shirts in Lynah. We'll just have to do it elsewhere.

do they have a trademark on the rivalry???

Exactly. . .screw both schools! Well, maybe just Harvard(sucks) and we'll just forget about Cornell's involvement.

Underground we go. . .

You sure are going "underground" in a very public way.

To quote Inigo Montoya, "You keep using that word -- I do not think it means what you think it means."

t'was a joke. . .

hey everyone.

i spoke to lynne stack of the trademark dept @ Harvard this morning. i should know very soon about Harvard's decision. if harvard says yes, cornell has promised me to say yes also, granted that the athletics director okays the project. so many hoops, yes. but harvard has had my design since monday, and they have not outright rejected me, which gives me a little hope. we'll see, and i'll keep you posted (they don't call it a post for nothing).

-mike

big red apple wrote:

To quote Inigo Montoya, "You keep using that word -- I do not think it means what you think it means."

Does that make Andy Noel the six fingered man?

I bet many of you remember this article from The Onion a while back - "Microsoft Patents Ones and Zeroes"

[www.theonion.com]

Ooh. A promise from Cornell. You can take that straight to the bank.

When I was in marching band, we used to get shirts every year, with all the schools' names on the back, and sometimes the front, depending on the design. Usually, these names were referred to in a disparaging way, or at least the spellings. How did they manage to get permission to do that? Did they have some sort of agreement with the Athletic Dept. that they could make T-shirts every year?

I doubt it. We never really got permission for anything we did, did we?

Dear all,

As expected, Harvard has rejected my design for being disparaging. The person I spoke to wanted me to do something that celebrated the traditions of both schools. I have reworked the design in order to claim fair use of parody, in two versions:

Gimme an A+!
Gimme another A+!
Welcome to HA+RVA+RD. (the plusses are superscripted)

and

Gimme an A!
Gimme another A!
Welcome to Hahvahd.

Additionally, I have taken Cornell's name off the shirts, as they refuse to endorse a disparaging comment to Harvard on a t-shirt but will allow 3,000 fans to make disparaging comments out loud. The front of the shirt now reads: "Lynah East hockey"

I should know if the parody use is legal soon. If I get the go-ahead, no shirt advertising is allowed on this site, according to Cornell UR. Age has graciously volunteered use of his off-campus webspace to post the final information, and I will send a link. Thank you to everyone, and we'll find out soon.

-Mike

Dear Erica and Josh,

Shut up, will ya?

-Lowell

P.S. Mike, I have a feeling that there is zero chance of anything being approved that would be something worth the trouble of making. While your efforts on the project are appreciated, perhaps you could find another way to go creating some form of commemoration.

. . .how about we buy a bunch of long sleeved red tee-shirts(in bulk to lower the cost) and people will pay for their own. Then everyone go to K-Mart (or where ever) and get those iron-on letters and make our own shirts. still don't know if that's allowed but i can't imagine wanting to deal with the paperwork from all the different designs. Since they would all be slightly different they can't just "pin it" on one person.

just a thought )

Go for it! It was a great idea in the beginning and still is. From your post I gather you are looking for a legal OK and not a University OK. I hope you get it. We should all support an initiative, it only helps to continue the tradition. Sign me up (again), probably for more than one.

Thanks Jim, and everyone. You're correct- I am looking for a legal answer, not a permission to use copyrights. Harvard has promised me an answer on Tuesday.

-Mike

just thought i'd say hi!!! love you babe and print cooler, better shirts.

Dear everyone,

Here is the update. I sent the 2 designs, HA+RVA+RD and Hahvahd to Harvard's trademark department. I was not seeking approval to use them, but merely asking if I was in violation of US law by using the two ideas as parody.

I was told that the department did not like the use of jokes against Harvard grading policy, and that they did not think my designs were actually parodies. They asked that I send a "nice" design for approval.

I responded by stating that I could not find Hahvahd registered under the US Patent Trademark Office. Additionally, I drew a distinction between my proposed shirt and a shirt that would say "Hahvahd sucks"-- my shirt only alludes to an objective fact acknowledged by the university and the Boston Globe-- 51% of grades were A's, 91% graduated with honors.

I received the following from Harvard this morning: "In regards to your first question, adding +'s to a trademark does not necessarily make it fair use. It's still HARVARD and we still have say of who may or may not use it as a trademark. In regards to checking with the U.S. PTO to see if something is registered, you site the mark HAHVAHD, U.S. trademark law permits for the University to control any confusingly similar marks to our registered mark HARVARD. As far as whether or not your designs constitute parody, you will need to speak to your own counsel for that answer. I am not an attorney and cannot advise you on this matter. All I can say is that if you come to us for permission for a design using any of the University's trademarks, we will either accept the design or deny it depending on numerous factors. In the case of the designs you have submitted to us, these have been denied."

I feel like I am running in circles here. The only thing I wanted was a straight answer whether my two designs were parody or not, being that I will NEVER get approval for any design unless I call Harvard the greatest school on the earth.

I need suggestions. If we are making shirts for the coming game, I need to call the t-shirt guy back tonight or tomorrow morning. I could just change it to "Welcome to Cambridge" which is perfectly legal, but I feel like I totally wasted my time. Is there still an interest? If someone else wants to get these made up, go right ahead. I don't know what to do anymore. Comments are greatly appreciated.

-Mike

A large drawback of our common-law legal tradition is that it leaves a lot of gray areas for which there is no clear answer. You can argue that HA+RVA+RD is a fair-use parody and you'll be able to site some legal precedents in your favor. Harvard will argue that printing HA+RVA+RD violates its trademark and will cite precedents in its favor. Only litigation or an out-of-court settlement will provide the clear answer you are looking for: whether your t-shirt design infringes Harvard's trademark.

Intellectual property law is not my area of expertise, and I have no idea whether you or Harvard has the stronger argument. An intellectual property lawyer should be able to provide you with a sense if whether you are likely to prevail. But, the HA+RVA+RD design may not be an open-and-shut case of fair use or trademark infringement.

I think a lot of people on this forum will understand if you decide that printing the t-shirts is not worth your time, effort, money, and risk of liability.

Before I make my point, let's all point at the Harvard(tm) official's poor diction and laugh:

you site the mark HAHVAHD

Okay, now here's my suggestion: if you just want to make a point and not get the official blessing of the schools on the piece of merchandise, how about going back to the original design and covering each mention of Cornell or Harvard with a big reverse-video "CENSORED"? E.g.,

C[CENSORED]l vs H[CENSORED]d

Welcome to H[CENSORED]d

Anyone who would care will know which schools you're talking about and you'll also get to make a statement about the absurdity of the whole thing. IANAL, but this seems like little more of a trademark violation than the censored-out "Taylor" on the Bully Hill wine bottles.

With regard to future enterprises, I am reminded of a saying I first heard from an employer: "It is easier to obtain forgiveness than permission."

With the IANAL disclaimer in full force here too, if you went to the t-shirt guy and said "hey, it's just a parody" and maybe signed something saying you take responsibility, I have a hard time believing he wouldn't accept the business. I think that your request of them put them in an impossible position. The idea of it being a parody is that you don't need permission. So then you go to them and ask permission to use what you claim is a parody. They can say yes and risk dilution of the trademark/set a precedent for insulting use of their name or they can say no and cover their asses.

In addition, I really can't see anyone sending a lawyer out to get you after the fact. It's no big deal for them to say no if you ask them, it's another story entirely for them to decide it's worth legal bills, bad press, and court time to fight a guy who has already made and sold maybe a few dozen t-shirts. Worse case you promise not to do it again and the shirt becomes a collector's item .

If you're not comfortable with that, just go with JTW's idea. It's funny and, IMHO, is certainly outside the realm of anything they'd ever want to fight.

-Fred

Good call Fred. I sent Rick Calixto at Harvard an e-mail an hour ago to make sure we were on the same page. I asked if it was just his opinion it wasn't a parody, or if Harvard intended to take action against me. Maybe he has every incentive to say yes. But at least then I'll know.

-Mike

Dude. At this point I think everyone would understand if you just want to bail. Twenty t-shirts isn't worth putting yourself through this. I wouldn't do it in your shoes.

-John

I agree with John. It isn't worth it.

However - just curious. Did someone already nix the "Crimson /Red" usage as also being under trademark and thus subect to approval? They are so vague that such usage could hardly be an issue - no?

crimson and red are definitely trademarked

"Gimme an A, Gimme an A, Welcome to Cambridge"

is definitely OK, but does anyone want that?

And the Harvard response:


Mike,
What I am saying is that Harvard University does not necessarily agree
that the art you have submitted to us constitutes parody. This is
ultimately for attorneys and courts to decide. I recommend that you
seek counsel before proceeding to be sure that the designs you
submittted to us are parody. The reason I disapproved them is that I
did not see them as parody. Had I seen them as such I would have told
you that you do not need approval from Harvard University for them.

-Rick

melissa... everything can be an issue

But I think even straight Cornell/Harvard probably wouldn't be. Why would a university care enough about 20 t-shirts to ask for anything more than an apology. Honestly, if it were me, I'd just tell the t-shirt guy that it's a parody/fair use, and that you'll sign something waiving him of responsibilty. If he won't do it, someone else will.

Of course I do realize that just because you sign something saying it's your problem, doesn't mean he couldn't be gone after anyway, but at least it'd be another level of protection for him.

You can try to jump through all the hoops and end up flat on your face (heh, I made a metaphor ) or you can just do it knowing for yourself that you truly feel what you're doing is reasonable and non-infringing.

And Mike, I have a feeling the letter you'll get back will either be a yes (again, to scare you away) or pretty much a disclaimer, saying Hahvahd protects it's trademarks when they feel they've been infringed upon and it would be the decision of someone above him to decide at such a time as the possible infrigement occurs.

It's up to you, but I think you know what I would do .

-Fred

Whatever you decide, the important thing to remember is that Harvard SUCKS.

yessssssssir...!

How about "Cambridge College"? Doesn't someone here (Ben???) have a big ol' "Welcome to Cambridge College" sheet that gets brought out every year?

That's Cambridge COMMUNITY College

Mike, it seems to me this guy at Harvard is being extremely pleasant with you, and is taking a lot of time to explain his position. He's not dismissing you as a kid, and he's not telling you to buzz off and leave him alone.

He's also being very honest. He doesn't feel it constitutes parody, and he can't give you permission to use Harvard's name or something similar to it.

He's effectively telling you that if you're confident you're on safe legal grounds, you're welcome to proceed. You can do that on your own judgement, or after consulting a lawyer, keeping in mind that <i>whether you're right or not,[/i] Harvard can sue you.

As for signing a waiver at the print shop that promises you'll take all responsibility, no rational local business would accept that. Most of them do business with Cornell at one level or another, and none would risk that relationship to take an order for a handful of shirts.

The guy at the print shop has called me twice in the last 2 days to ask if I wanna proceed, actually.

-Mike

Gimme an A, Gimme an A, Welcome to Cambridge Community College

Is anyone else thinking at this point that we should just all buy the same Harvard t-shirt when we get to Cambridge, and just paint "SUCKS" underneath it in bright red paint? Might be easier.

Gimme an A!
Gimme another A!
Gimme a few more!

Welcome to Haaaaaaaaaaaarvard.

Do whatever you feel comfortable with. I can't imagine any real legal problems other than having them ask you not to do it again( thereby increasing the value of the shirts in future years ).

Remember they did not say you were wrong legally, rather that they could not support you. I still like the idea. I also think you have a good case with the A+ idea, and that any judge would laugh at Harvard taking legal action, but who am I to say.

If I can support you in any way let me know, I do like it.

[Q]Is anyone else thinking at this point that we should just all buy the same Harvard t-shirt when we get to Cambridge, and just paint "SUCKS" underneath it in bright red paint?[/Q]

That's actually a good idea. They can't really do anything to us for "defacing" our own property.

Not to be a pain in the ass, but
wouldn't "welcome to Lynah East" on the front
and "GO Red"
be enough of a slap in face of our beloved ( ) fellow Ivy, hahvahd (sucks) ?
and seemingly generic enough to avoid copyrights?
Just a thought.

why go with a positive message when you can print a clever, negative one?

Well, I'm starting to think that finding another drawn out way of saying "grade inflation" isn't so clever, and you could probably come up with something a lot better at this point. For me, it's time to move on from grade inflation.

I think you should read between the lines of what the Harvard representative is saying:

1. We do not approve of disparaging uses of our marks.
2. You are proposing a disparaging use of our marks.
3. I am the wrong person to ask about whether something is a "parody" because it isn't my job to find things funny, it is my job to make you sufficiently uncomfortable that you do not disparage our marks.
4. Go see your own lawyer, but understand that no matter what your lawyer tells you, we have our own lawyers.
5. Our lawyers will not agree.
6. Have a nice day.

Mike,
Don't feel like you're the only one getting threats from the Harvard(sucks) Administration:

[www.cornelldailysun.com]

. . .they even eat their own!

)

Well Said!

Although IANAL, I think point #4 is the crux of the matter. Parody is *not* a bright line defense against trademark infringement. Even if you have a good case and you were to win in the end, would it really be worth your time and money to take on a bunch of Harvard lawyers for the sake of 20 t-shirts?

I don't know about you, but I found being an undergrad at Cornell to be hard enough without also trying to become a landmark piece of case law at the same time.

{soapbox}

If this entire experience has convinced you that our current trademark/copyright IP system sucks and needs reform, I'd suggest a good place to start would be to write your congressional representative and request that s/he repeal the Sonny Bono Copyright Term Extension Act.

For more info:
[writ.news.findlaw.com]

{/soapbox}

The Turkeybone wrote:

Well, I'm starting to think that finding another drawn out way of saying "grade inflation" isn't so clever, and you could probably come up with something a lot better at this point. For me, it's time to move on from grade inflation.

That wouldn't have anything to do with the fact that people have taken to chanting "grade inflation" at the end of every game, even when it doesn't make sense (which is to say, any game other than Harvard), would it?

(And by the way, what's up with that?)

You have to remember that Harvard Business School is preparing its students for the wonderful world of American business, where dissent is forbidden and being a "team player" assures success.

Give me a break, Al. All Harvard is doing is what every institution does. They protect their image. Harvard is being a buzzkill, but it isn't really surprising, and it certainly isn't nefarious.

Harvard may not sue Mike if he goes ahead, but they are well within their rights to refuse to cooperate with him.

Apple, you need to figure out how to use this thing in "threaded view." My comment had nothing whatsoever to do with Mike's travails with Harvard--but referred to the Sun article pointed to by Ben regarding the Harvard Business School.

Or just learn to shut up.

Now-now boys. . .

john,

nice comments. as per the "write your congressional rep," i would have to disagree. i worked for congress this summer, and i know exactly where the letters go-- the trash can, because i put them in there after sending form letters

enough government. check your emails. 'nuff said

-mike

Al DeFlorio wrote:

Apple, you need to figure out how to use this thing in "threaded view." My comment had nothing whatsoever to do with Mike's travails with Harvard--but referred to the Sun article pointed to by Ben regarding the Harvard Business School.

I stopped using threaded view a long time ago. So many people use flat view that it gets hard to figure out what a post is responding to unless you can just scroll up the page. First time I have been burned because of it. My bad.

Or just learn to shut up.

The hell I will. I'll comment whenever I see fit. For instance, I'll just comment on the merit of the "humor" and "social commentary" in your actual post, as it was originally intended: non-existent.

(Oh, what am I getting into here. We were getting along so well. . .)

On the question of flat vs. threaded: you won't use it because nobody else is?! I think you just made Susan B. Anthony cry.

Anyone have change for a buck that looks like change?

Al's crustiness aside, if you click on "reply to this post", it will make the topic a lot more legible for those of us who prefer threaded view.

I usually, but not always, do. I will endeavor to be more courteous in this regard.

age,

could you delete this thread and the "harvard shirts" thread, as per the e-mail i sent you? thanks

mike