Video Suggestions

Hey guys,

I've been browsing around the forums and have seen many complaints about some of the quality of the video for the webcasts; I run the wide angle camera. Any suggestions for how we could do it better? Do we not follow the puck accurately enough? Do we change shots too often? I would appreciate the feedback so we can hopefully start improving some of the video quality for next weeks game. As far as last night's game goes, sorry about the announcer's hand in the way on the west end goal -- he was oblivious to the whole thing.

Thanks!

You change shots too often in my opinion, but others may like that.

I wouldn't be opposed to just sticking to a traditional wide-angle center-ice lens for this type of broadcast, at least with that we can always see the puck go into the net (as long as the cameraman is paying attention). The angle switching has been too spastic and rapid, and some angles (the low corners for example) are rarely useful.

If you could get some sort of replay going, that would be a good time to use alternate angles.

Thanks for lettings us give input.

As far as the changing shots goes, yeah you are probably right. It's mostly a function of the obvious (to get the best view of the puck) and because we have so many cameras to choose from.

As far as the low corners go, yeah, they suck. I've tried advocating for a corner camera, like the ones they used when they broadcasted the Clarkson game. Those give great shots. I'm not entirely sure why those didn't work out, but that would certainly solve the problem.

You really run the camera, or you're just looking to stir up trouble by posing as same? OK, here goes. Some of us (say we) know a lot about video and the rest of us think we know a lot about video, just as we think we know more about what Cornell should have done now that the game is over and we have a chance to digest the game. Here goes:

- The main camera isn't high enough. It doesn't clear either the laptops or something else (Anvil cases?) in the pressbox. You need a taller tripod and a box for the camera guy to stand on.

- Switching problems. The camera in the east end corner was the live feed for goal #1 against Cornell and there wasn't much of an angle to see what was happening. Can't recall if that was the same for Yale #2 also.

- Occasonally (once or twice Saturday) there's live action on the ice when the live feed is a camera panning behind the glass at the west end. I'm not talking about say the crowd shot after a Cornell goal.

- When Cornell/CSTV uses the occasional broadcast feed, the quality is better, suggesting the cameras being used the rest of the time don't have the ability to capture details in shadow or the color of the darker uniforms.

- What kind of viewfinder are you using? It seems as if once in a while the camera loses track of the play or isn't panned to center on the play. My guess is you're using a small viewfinder and it's hard to track, as opposed to using dopey cameramen.

There's other stuff we (on the outside) think is obviously missing such as replays. How hard would that be to have a Mark Tape [actually, Mark Disk, right?] feature you hit when the goal light goes on and you then can immediately buffer and stream 10 seconds before and 3 seconds afterwards? And then you (whoever control choice of camera feed) play that back while players are skating up for the faceoff.

Plus we're grumpy about the whole operation that CSTV has or should have control over, such as how soon the feed goes live (6:59pm is not good).

Yep, I really do run the camera and have been for two years.

A lot of it is logistical. There really is no other spot to place such a big camera with the press box. We could absolutely try to angle it a bit higher, but unfortunately, the viewfinder is quite small (2" x 2" or something to that effect).

As far as the camera losing track of the play, that's my fault. Sometimes its hard to keep following the play if there's a quick shift in possession, etc.

The one thing that really gets me is that our view gets the laptops in the box every time we go toward the east end goal. It's so cramped in that box so it's hard to fit everyone accordingly. That's something that really needs to be changed. Maybe when they renovate the rink...

Replay is a great idea -- I've tried suggesting that a few times. It should not be to hard to do and would probably just involve a few more cables here and there. I'll keep ya posted.

Trustnduzt
As far as the changing shots goes, yeah you are probably right. It's mostly a function of the obvious (to get the best view of the puck) and because we have so many cameras to choose from.

I think it's a safe assumption that most people willing to pay cash for a medium quality online feed of college hockey are going to be familiar enough with the sport that they don't necessarily need to see the puck in the highest detail at every second. TV broadcasts do that almost out of necessity to appeal to a broader audience of hockey fan. I'm not sure you have that problem here.

I know that I appreciate a simple center-ice camera because it allows the best overall angle to see the play develop and ensures that I won't miss anything.

Trustnduzt,

I don't have any distinct comments right now about the quality although I agree with most of what's been said (too much reliance on poor-view corner cameras, too much switching, no replay, etc).

Losing the puck is very frustrating. There was a goal this season that the camera was looking the wrong way - and another one that the camera was kinda tight on the net, so that we saw the light come on for the goal, but couldn't see whoever shot it.


But what I really want to say is... I think our main frustration with the whole operation is that there's no way for the end user to communicate with whoever is in charge. When the feed goes down (which hasn't been as bad as it used to be), if we call CSTV they just say "um, yeah, wait 5 minutes", or half the time they tell us "that game isn't being carried tonight". Oh yeah, you mean in the middle of the 2nd period they decided not to carry it, huh?

So I think the main thing is communication. It'd be easier to be understanding if we knew what was actually going on when there were problems, and if we had a caring, concerned ear which we could share our comments and know that they were trying to improve it. For coming on here you are to be commended... seriously. You could have gotten defensive and hid in the corner, or insulted us back, but you didn't. Just knowing that there's someone who cares and can explain the difficulties behind it is a MAJOR step forward.

So I'd say if there was *one* thing to improve with CSTV, it'd be better communications. When the feed goes down at the rink, you should be able to call CSTV and they put a message in their system regarding the problem and an Est. Time to Repair - so the reps we talk to, don't have to just make up lies. If we have a comment, there should be a feedback box on CSTV (not just the general customer service address), where we *know* that they are passing it on to you, or to whoever can take it into consideration. That we are being listened to by someone who can make a change.

All the further improvements would then flow naturally from there. So THANK YOU for coming on here and opening the lines of communications. It's just a shame that it had to be behind-the-scenes through-a-message board since CSTV has no way to accomplish this. And while I realize that the system will probably never be broadcast quality, having the option at all is a great service which we do appreciate... even if you can't tell sometimes

- Fred

Thanks for the support, Fred, I appreciate it.

My power, is unfortunately, quite limited BUT I can absolutely relay some of these concerns on to higher powers. I do not directly work for CSTV but interact with many of the people on a daily basis in the box.

The feed going down is frustrating for everyone and often times the source of the problem is unclear. An estimate time to repair should be implemented to help keep people up to date on the problem. The situation sort of compares to a delay at the airport, where the captain doesn't want to give any information until it is final. Perhaps that is what is going here -- that CSTV won't be an estimated time just in case they can't meet that deadline.

But again, thanks for the support. Hopefully we can make this better for everyone.

Trustnduzt,

I go to all home games, so I don't subscribe. However I'm thinking about it just to get the archived games. Considering all that I read about here, I'd also like to say thank you. I think everyone realizes that this is somewhat new and that all the players are somewhat inexperienced. Maybe if you would just tell the powers to be to read this thread, they will understand how important simple communication can be.

As for suggestions, have you talked to administration about the renovations and how this will fit into it? It would not surprise me to learn that they haven't even given it a thought. Please ask.

Again thank you.

My primary complaint is that on narrower shots, the camera is often simply not fast enough to keep up with the play. Several times in the last two weekends, the camera has spent ten or fifteen seconds showing us players and ice where the puck had recently been; it should be showing us where the puck is. This has even been true on a few goals, especially during the power play.

Don't zoom in and try to follow the puck when it's being cycled. I would vastly prefer a wider angle with somewhat less detail to constantly losing sight of what's actually happening in the game.

Beeeej

I've heard a few rumblings about the renovations...

First, they are going to renovate the locker rooms for both teams. They are also going to expand some seating around by the concession stands and move those around as well. As far as a bigger box...well....I don't know. But if we had just like 10 more feet on either side, that'd be fantastic.

Trustnduzt
I've heard a few rumblings about the renovations...

First, they are going to renovate the locker rooms for both teams. They are also going to expand some seating around by the concession stands and move those around as well. As far as a bigger box...well....I don't know. But if we had just like 10 more feet on either side, that'd be fantastic.

Well, from what I've heard, they're adding rows to the south side of the rink, so the press box will necessarily have to be moved, and hopefully rebuilt.

BTW, I am ecstatic to get any video at all: I call 1998-2002 the "dark ages," because I could only listen to the broadcasts, which really sucks. While I'd love to get better overall quality---higher bitrate, better customer service, replays, better camera, better camera angles , road games---I don't think I can quite express to you how much I value the service you provide. So, an emphatic "thank you."

Kyle

Trustnzudt, I, too, sincerely appreciate your work for the webcasts and your willingness to solicit suggestions from the viewers. I agree wholeheartedly with the sentiment that the center-ice camera should be used most of the time and that the camera should rarely zoom in on the puck. Having a tight view on the puck at any given time is less important than a wide view that gives the viewers a sense of how a play is developing and where the puck may be going. The play immediately around the puck is not the only important aspect of the game that the camera should capture.

Thank you for seeking this feedback. The video broadcasts are a wonderful service for out-of-town alumni. Improving those broadcasts would be great.

Agree with all that's been said and I add my thanks - I look forward to the broadcasts since otherwise I wouldn't see Red until they came to the Capital District.

One thing though - Don't get rid of the Corner cameras outrightly - that shot is fun when there's puckmucking in the endboards or post-shot roughing in the crease. Or roughing anywhere else, of course....

My general feeling about hockey broadcasts is that the center ice shot conveys the most information and should be used most of the time. The other cameras are great for replays and analysis during stoppages - catching details that the main camera can't. But you lose too much information about the overall flow of the game with the narow shots while the action is ongoing.

Can you tell us more about the center camera rig. Do you have tripod controls for Zoom and Focus?? Do you have an external field monitor? Having these controls and slinging the monitor in the tripod make tracking and focus much easier (it is more comfortable for the camera operator too).

Aesthetically, the frequent flare from the auto iris is annoying. You should have a feel for where the rink is light and dark, manually adjust iris as you pan. Also, can you do something with the white balance? I know Age has indicated the lights are hellish to work with but they are the constant, the color temperature should not change from one area to another.

Keep up the good work. I very much enjoy watching the games.

Chris

cmoberg
I know Age has indicated the lights are hellish to work with but they are the constant, the color temperature should not change from one area to another.

Brightness is consistent, if uneven, but temperature seems to fluctuate wildly creating odd color casts, though this is seen more with fast shutter speeds and probably doesn't affect video much.

[www.elynah.com]

CowbellGuy
Brightness is consistent, if uneven,

For what it's worth, I strongly suspect the old lighting (not sure when it was replaced; the last renovation seems likely) was inconsistent: during my many hour-long pre-game waits at Lynah, I would spend time just looking around the rink, and I noticed several of the lights nearest me oscillating between brighter and dimmer with a reasonably long---maybe 20 second---period.

It's the sort of thing you notice only if you're looking for it, or if you spent enough downtime there to pick up on stupid crap like that. But as I indicated in a previous thread ( [elf.elynah.com] ), I had no life.

I didn't notice this from the new lights two weeks ago, and I was looking for it.

Why did I mention this? Mid-afternoon boredom.

Cheers,
Kyle

You're quite right, but brightness is much easier to adjust in photos than the peculiar color casts from the new lights. The old lights were much darker in general, too.

What technology do the new lights use (Sodium Vapor) ? Most lithting technologies put out light in a narrow color temperature. It seems strange the the light output (FC/Lux) would be relatively constant but that the temperature would change. Is it that the temp from one light changes, or are there differences from light to light?

Chris

Well, each light seems to actually fluctuate from blue through white to red and back. You can shoot the same spot and have one area blue and the area next to it only to have them swap in another frame. They're quite peculiar.

I'm mainly responsible for the wide-angle so I just maintain the zoomed-out view the entire game. The three other cameras are for closeups. Keep in mind that the center ice camera that I operate is the feed that is given to both team's coaching staffs and the one that is archived. Thus, for game analysis their purposes they don't need many close-ups and if they did, they could grab the other camera's feeds, I presume.

Bumping this thread...

Thanks for sticking with the center-ice cam tonight against Dartmouth.

I would like a wider view once the puck is in the offensive zone, sometimes it was zoomed in a bit too much on the play (OLN-esque) and we missed out on some of the play. However, the production today (aside from CSTV issues) was much better IMO.

Tub(a)
Bumping this thread...

Thanks for sticking with the center-ice cam tonight against Dartmouth.

I would like a wider view once the puck is in the offensive zone, sometimes it was zoomed in a bit too much on the play (OLN-esque) and we missed. However, the production today (aside from CSTV issues) was much better IMO.

Agreed. Even CSTV has been admittedly better, as pathetic as that is considering the poor consistency from the stream tonight.

Kyle

Tub(a)
Bumping this thread...

Thanks for sticking with the center-ice cam tonight against Dartmouth.

I would like a wider view once the puck is in the offensive zone, sometimes it was zoomed in a bit too much on the play (OLN-esque) and we missed out on some of the play. However, the production today (aside from CSTV issues) was much better IMO.

How could you tell? I couldn't watch more than 2 minutes straight tonight without needing to reload the video.

DeltaOne81

Tub(a)
Bumping this thread...

Thanks for sticking with the center-ice cam tonight against Dartmouth.

I would like a wider view once the puck is in the offensive zone, sometimes it was zoomed in a bit too much on the play (OLN-esque) and we missed out on some of the play. However, the production today (aside from CSTV issues) was much better IMO.

How could you tell? I couldn't watch more than 2 minutes straight tonight without needing to reload the video.

The Second period was sweet

Another bump...

Seems like some of the old problems have returned, too much switching to questionable camera angles and far too tight of a camera angle in the offensive zones.

We didn't see either the McCutcheon or Glover goals because the camera was way too tight on the puck.

Thanks again...

Really?

I heard the webcast producer telling one of the cameraman that they missed the shot on the McClutch goal...

I kept the wide angle the whole time and got both. I told them they should try to keep the wide angle more often...

The corner cam guy still really likes to zoom in. Really, there's no reason why giving us the view that we would have if we were standing there isn't fine - i.e. seeing the whole ice (from front to back, that is). Internet video quality isn't good enough to see the puck most of the time when zoomed in, so it doesn't serve much purpose. Better from the center ice cam though

And thanks for fixing the cable problem today so quickly. Its still a shame that we can't call CSTV and have them pass it to you - that instead we have to text people at the rink and have them go and tell you. But hey, whatever works I guess. Thanks again for fixing it before we missed any action.

No problem -- it was just a bit loose in the wall and someone noticed it after a few minutes. I'll tell the webcast producer tomorrow to stick to the wide shots more often; they do appreciate the feedback!

What temperature do you balance Lynah's lighting for?

Trustnduzt--

Another suggestion--could you please tell the producer that they need to actually put up the archives of the videos on the net, so folks can watch the games after they are done. Currently, the Colgate, Dartmouth and Clarkson webcasts are unavailable. I don't know if this producer has any control over this or could contact the right person, but I've called CSTV twice now to alert them to the problem without any success. Thanks for the help.

Hey trust, you don't have any connection to the people who do the lax video, do you?

(the video is up, its just the same camera work problem)

As much as we deservedly give crap to the webcast, I have to give props to showing the replay last night. Maybe it was possible because it was intermission, but if they can do that for goals and other big plays it would be a definite plus.

You guys really need to keep a wider angle on the center ice camera. I'm getting nauseous watching

Watch any NHL game and see how often it changes from the center ice camera, and take note how wide the image is. When you are too close, you have to keep jerking the camera around in order to follow the puck, and inevitably, you lose the puck. Both the audience, and the camera person.

Guess it's moot now, since this is the last weekend. But keep it in mind for the future.

Watching the Clarkson game. You guys really have to stop zooming with the camera, especially in the OT.

If I had my preference, I would destroy those two camera's in the zones that do the extreme close-ups.

PinkyGen
Watching the Clarkson game. You guys really have to stop zooming with the camera, especially in the OT.

If I had my preference, I would destroy those two camera's in the zones that do the extreme close-ups.

And PLEASE stop changing angles and using fades every two seconds (the beginning of 1OT is very confusing to watch). It looks more like a bad highlight reel for a commercial than a game, and it's impossible to follow, because by the time you've identified where you are and who you're watching, it's already switched.

for future- you should always be able to see where the puck will end up.

You should almost always be able to see the width of the ice. And the goal shouldn't be out of any shot moving in to the zone.

Only tight zoom ever should be 1 camera on a scrum that isnt moving, with another backup shot showing the width.

And no quick pan/ zoom. The less the better - too much of that and its like a bad home movie. Just like a player, anticipate the action.

The work is apreciated, let's just improve the product...

Another head's up ... there should not be dissolves during game action. Less camera switching the better, in general, but definitely no dissolves. The fact that these feeds exist, however, is VERY much appreciated.

And thank you very much for the replays. Awesome addition.

I never did get the sound to work for some reason (never had that problem before and the video was crystal clear so who knows), but I thought the camera work tonight was much better than yesterday.

Thanks. I gave a word to the producer about sticking to the wide-angle more and he said its just a matter of him getting more experience with the job - this is his first year as the producer. He said that he expects the action to be real fast, but sometime just misses the transitions between cameras. It'll certainly improve as time goes on. He also mentioned that you can't see the puck on the wide-angle view, but I said that wasn't really the issue, since most people just want to see the goal. The improvements are in the pipeline for next year so hopefully there will be a visible different for the next season.

Thanks for all your suggestions! They were duly noted .

Again, thanks for taking our suggestions.

Trustnduzt
He also mentioned that you can't see the puck on the wide-angle view, but I said that wasn't really the issue, since most people just want to see the goal. The improvements are in the pipeline for next year so hopefully there will be a visible different for the next season.

You can let him know that you can't see the puck on a web feed no matter what angle he uses. Anything moving is going to pixelate because of the compression algorithm. Heck you can barely see the puck when watching a game on HDTV (remember Fox's glowing puck). However, if you show enough of the players fans can tell where the puck is just by how they position and react.

schoaff

Trustnduzt
He also mentioned that you can't see the puck on the wide-angle view, but I said that wasn't really the issue, since most people just want to see the goal. The improvements are in the pipeline for next year so hopefully there will be a visible different for the next season.

You can let him know that you can't see the puck on a web feed no matter what angle he uses. Anything moving is going to pixelate because of the compression algorithm. Heck you can barely see the puck when watching a game on HDTV (remember Fox's glowing puck). However, if you show enough of the players fans can tell where the puck is just by how they position and react.

My response exactly. We can really barely see the puck on the close up views. I'm sure you guys can on your feeds, but not on the web bandwidth. Which is fine, I've never felt that we had to, you know where it is based on the players.

I agree, we should really see the width of ice *all* the time. Don't focus on a player or where he's going. Show the whole thing, like we'd see if we were there.


The same thing happened in the lax game today (not sure if its the same crew). They would show a player holding the ball behind the cage, and you would have no idea what's going on with the rest of the players in front of the goal and on the rest of the field.

I understand that from your area its tempting to zoom in, but from ours, we just want to see the whole play as if we were there. And don't worry about seeing the ball/puck, its not gonna happen anyway.


And always remember, no matter how much we may comment/criticize, we thank you all for your very hard word and are thrilled the service is available.

DeltaOne81
And always remember, no matter how much we may comment/criticize, we thank you all for your very hard work and are thrilled the service is available.

I meant to second this last night and forgot. Hereby seconded