Vermont misses NCAA's APR threshold
Posted by Give My Regards
Vermont misses NCAA's APR threshold
Posted by: Give My Regards (---.oracorp.com)
Date: March 01, 2005 10:32AM
Our friends from Vermont are in the news again... this time for being one of four NCAA Div. I hockey programs that failed to meet the 50% graduation rate threshold in the new Academic Progress Rate scores.
[www.uscho.com]
This is based on one year's worth of data, but if the Cats miss the threshold again next year, they apparently could lose some scholarships.
[www.uscho.com]
This is based on one year's worth of data, but if the Cats miss the threshold again next year, they apparently could lose some scholarships.
___________________________
If you lead a good life, go to Sunday school and church, and say your prayers every night, when you die, you'll go to LYNAH!
If you lead a good life, go to Sunday school and church, and say your prayers every night, when you die, you'll go to LYNAH!
Re: Vermont misses NCAA's APR threshold
Posted by: jaybert (---.nc.us.ibm.com)
Date: March 01, 2005 11:17AM
Cornell Hockey has a 1000, with a 987 overall for all sports. Sounds pretty good to me!!
Harvard has a 990 over all sports, Princeton has a 994, Brown 971, Yale 999, Dartmouth, 966, Columbia 982, Upenn 993.
Good to see that we're actually graduating student atheletes!
Harvard has a 990 over all sports, Princeton has a 994, Brown 971, Yale 999, Dartmouth, 966, Columbia 982, Upenn 993.
Good to see that we're actually graduating student atheletes!
Re: Vermont misses NCAA's APR threshold
Posted by: Mike (---.external.lmco.com)
Date: March 01, 2005 11:24AM
Looking at the results it seems as though the ECACHL, led by the Ivies, has to have the highest average score. I'm too lazy to actually figure it out though.
Re: Vermont misses NCAA's APR threshold
Posted by: KeithK (---.external.lmco.com)
Date: March 01, 2005 11:44AM
And the only school with a bad graduation record is leaving. I guess Vermont really didn't belong in the ECAC. 
Re: Vermont misses NCAA's APR threshold
Posted by: Beeeej (---.bc.yu.edu)
Date: March 01, 2005 11:54AM
Last I heard, Cornell's varsity athletes had a higher four-year graduation rate, higher five-year graduation rate, and higher aggregate cumulative GPA than the average student at Cornell. I think that's impressive.
Beeeej
Beeeej
___________________________
Beeeej, Esq.
"Cornell isn't an organization. It's a loose affiliation of independent fiefdoms united by a common hockey team."
- Steve Worona
Beeeej, Esq.
"Cornell isn't an organization. It's a loose affiliation of independent fiefdoms united by a common hockey team."
- Steve Worona
Re: Vermont misses NCAA's APR threshold
Posted by: BCrespi (---.twcny.res.rr.com)
Date: March 01, 2005 12:03PM
It's great to see, but I don't know if it's surprising. When your pool is a few hundred people, all with push by their team/coach etc, to maintain eligibility, keep scholarships, stay for four (five) years, theoretically, they should have a very high graduation rate. Only a few guys on this one team we seem to focus (re: obsess) on a bit here are the only athletes at the school (save another every blue moon) that are pressured to leave early. This is not Boston College or Michigan with a nationally ranked team in nearly every sport. On the other hand, how many people do every Cornell student know that were slightly (more than slightly) overwhelmed by Cornell academics with nobody pushing them along the way, and then decided that this place/college just wasn't for them?
That being said, it's great to see. From someone who almost chose Michigan over Cornell simply beacuse of their athletic programs, yay, for Cornell athletes. Seriously.
That being said, it's great to see. From someone who almost chose Michigan over Cornell simply beacuse of their athletic programs, yay, for Cornell athletes. Seriously.
___________________________
Brian Crespi '06
Brian Crespi '06
Re: Vermont misses NCAA's APR threshold
Posted by: Josh '99 (---.nyc.rr.com)
Date: March 01, 2005 12:08PM
[Q]Beeeej Wrote:
Last I heard, Cornell's varsity athletes had a higher four-year graduation rate, higher five-year graduation rate, and higher aggregate cumulative GPA than the average student at Cornell. I think that's impressive.[/q]How do athletes and average students compare in terms of their seven-year graduation rates?
Last I heard, Cornell's varsity athletes had a higher four-year graduation rate, higher five-year graduation rate, and higher aggregate cumulative GPA than the average student at Cornell. I think that's impressive.[/q]How do athletes and average students compare in terms of their seven-year graduation rates?
Re: Vermont misses NCAA's APR threshold
Posted by: billhoward (---.union01.nj.comcast.net)
Date: March 01, 2005 12:35PM
Cornell hockey is at 1000 (something Yale didn't manage). Heh! Although the threat for non-compliance is loss of scholarships. Seems the Ivies are insulated against that problem. <g>
There are conflicting studies on whether Ivy (and other elite) athletes are better, same, or worse students than the rest of us. In The Game of Life (James Schulman and ex-Princeton prez Wm Bowen), the authors I believe concluded that athletes have higher graduation rates. But a follow-on book, Reclaiming the Game, says athletes underperform academically compared to what their incoming credentials would suggest, especially when you split out recruited athletes from walk-ons.
There's a longish overview of the methodology at Princeton U press: [www.pupress.princeton.edu]
One or two people don't make or disprove the case, but are not the McRae brothers at Yale Med School now? That's a nice switch from inflicting to curing pain.
One argument against big time athletics is that the student athletes are apart from the rest of students. Maybe, maybe not. But out of 16,000 students, I think there's room for a couple dozen physically imposing specimens who can bring entertainment and unity to Cornell through their artistry with hockey and lacrosse sticks, or on the wrestling mat.
There are conflicting studies on whether Ivy (and other elite) athletes are better, same, or worse students than the rest of us. In The Game of Life (James Schulman and ex-Princeton prez Wm Bowen), the authors I believe concluded that athletes have higher graduation rates. But a follow-on book, Reclaiming the Game, says athletes underperform academically compared to what their incoming credentials would suggest, especially when you split out recruited athletes from walk-ons.
There's a longish overview of the methodology at Princeton U press: [www.pupress.princeton.edu]
One or two people don't make or disprove the case, but are not the McRae brothers at Yale Med School now? That's a nice switch from inflicting to curing pain.
One argument against big time athletics is that the student athletes are apart from the rest of students. Maybe, maybe not. But out of 16,000 students, I think there's room for a couple dozen physically imposing specimens who can bring entertainment and unity to Cornell through their artistry with hockey and lacrosse sticks, or on the wrestling mat.
Re: Vermont misses NCAA's APR threshold
Posted by: David Harding (---.client.comcast.net)
Date: March 01, 2005 10:57PM
[Q]Beeeej Wrote:
Last I heard, Cornell's varsity athletes had a higher four-year graduation rate, higher five-year graduation rate, and higher aggregate cumulative GPA than the average student at Cornell. I think that's impressive.
Beeeej[/q]
It fluctutes from year to year. The standard measure is the six year graduation rate. Cornell's overall rate increased steadily through the 1980's, then stabilized around 92%, with small ups and downs. The recruited athletes followed, except that there was a noticeable dip down in the group who entered in the fall of 1996.
This is the latest report, covering students who entered from 1980 through 1997. [dpb.cornell.edu] See page 13 for the athletes.
For even more information, look under the Division of Planning and Budget [dpb.cornell.edu], especially under Institutional Research and Planning.
Last I heard, Cornell's varsity athletes had a higher four-year graduation rate, higher five-year graduation rate, and higher aggregate cumulative GPA than the average student at Cornell. I think that's impressive.
Beeeej[/q]
It fluctutes from year to year. The standard measure is the six year graduation rate. Cornell's overall rate increased steadily through the 1980's, then stabilized around 92%, with small ups and downs. The recruited athletes followed, except that there was a noticeable dip down in the group who entered in the fall of 1996.
This is the latest report, covering students who entered from 1980 through 1997. [dpb.cornell.edu] See page 13 for the athletes.
For even more information, look under the Division of Planning and Budget [dpb.cornell.edu], especially under Institutional Research and Planning.
Re: Vermont misses NCAA's APR threshold
Posted by: CornellChris (---.twcny.res.rr.com)
Date: March 01, 2005 11:24PM
Quinnipiac is replacing Vermont, right? They're at 968, which would be good for next to last in the new ECAC (Clarkson at 944). Still a significant improvement from Vermont's 900 though. I also see that Quinnipiac is #19 in those INCH Power Rankings linked in another thread (Vermont was #16). They also got a vote in the USA Today poll. Looks like they were a nice choice for the replacement!
Sorry to get off-topic, but is that the consensus around these parts? That Quinnipiac will be a nice addition to the conference? Was there another choice most folks here favored? Sorry, I wasn't visiting the board when all this went down, but I was curious what the prevailing sentiment on Quinnipiac was.
-Chris '03
Sorry to get off-topic, but is that the consensus around these parts? That Quinnipiac will be a nice addition to the conference? Was there another choice most folks here favored? Sorry, I wasn't visiting the board when all this went down, but I was curious what the prevailing sentiment on Quinnipiac was.
-Chris '03
Re: Vermont misses NCAA's APR threshold
Posted by: DeltaOne81 (---.bos.east.verizon.net)
Date: March 01, 2005 11:49PM
I think most people would have prefered Holy Cross, which was the other finalist - who got a 1000 by the way. But I think overall people thought either were decent choices, no matter who they thought was the better one. H.C. would have made slightly nicer travel partners as well.
The problem with H.C. was their committment to the women's program, and maybe the facilities compared to QU's under construction new arena.
The problem with H.C. was their committment to the women's program, and maybe the facilities compared to QU's under construction new arena.
Re: Vermont misses NCAA's APR threshold
Posted by: ben03 (---.rochester.res.rr.com)
Date: March 01, 2005 11:54PM
Re: Vermont misses NCAA's APR threshold
Posted by: jtwcornell91 (---.no.no.cox.net)
Date: March 02, 2005 07:48AM
[Q]CornellChris Wrote:
Quinnipiac is replacing Vermont, right? They're at 968, which would be good for next to last in the new ECAC (Clarkson at 944). Still a significant improvement from Vermont's 900 though. I also see that Quinnipiac is #19 in those INCH Power Rankings linked in another thread (Vermont was #16). They also got a vote in the USA Today poll. Looks like they were a nice choice for the replacement!
[/q]
I wouldn't get too excited about where they stand in the polls, or even in RPI, whose problems handling minor conference schedules are well-documented. Quinnipiac is
#49 in KRACH [www.uscho.com] . In KASA, which takes home ice advantage into consideration, they're #48 [www.uscho.com] . Vermont is #22 in both rankings. OTOH, Yale is #48 and #50, respectively.
Quinnipiac is replacing Vermont, right? They're at 968, which would be good for next to last in the new ECAC (Clarkson at 944). Still a significant improvement from Vermont's 900 though. I also see that Quinnipiac is #19 in those INCH Power Rankings linked in another thread (Vermont was #16). They also got a vote in the USA Today poll. Looks like they were a nice choice for the replacement!
[/q]
I wouldn't get too excited about where they stand in the polls, or even in RPI, whose problems handling minor conference schedules are well-documented. Quinnipiac is
#49 in KRACH [www.uscho.com] . In KASA, which takes home ice advantage into consideration, they're #48 [www.uscho.com] . Vermont is #22 in both rankings. OTOH, Yale is #48 and #50, respectively.
Re: Vermont misses NCAA's APR threshold
Posted by: billhoward (---.union01.nj.comcast.net)
Date: March 02, 2005 08:53AM
We like Quinnipiac because we like what we think will become their informal school nickname, and because they'll help make for even more four-point weekends for us and the rest of the league.
The real problem is the ECACHL gets no respect once you get below the top five, six teams: Cornell, Harvard, Clarkson/St. Lawrence about half the time, RPI and Colgate and Brown about half the time, now Dartmouth coming in to its own. Quinnipiac won't help that anytime soon, and the rink abuilding won't be all that big.
We needed a school that could / would stand shoulder to shoulder with a BC or BU and you could see Holy Cross being in that mold in a few years. Plus it would help to have annother ECACHL school close by Boston, the epicenter of eastern hockey. Holy Cross has more than decent academics.
[edit adding]Holy Cross has drawbacks, too: student body only 2800 (vs. 9000 undergrads at BC), hockey rink only seats 1400 (Cornell plays there, there'd be no seats left for Holy Cross fans). Although Holy Cross' then-new athletic director in 1998 talked about increasing attendance and visibility among the "revenue sports" and cited ice hockey as one of them. Even at ten bucks a pop for tickets, no student discounts, full house, you'd still have a hard time making money. scholarships or no.
The real problem is the ECACHL gets no respect once you get below the top five, six teams: Cornell, Harvard, Clarkson/St. Lawrence about half the time, RPI and Colgate and Brown about half the time, now Dartmouth coming in to its own. Quinnipiac won't help that anytime soon, and the rink abuilding won't be all that big.
We needed a school that could / would stand shoulder to shoulder with a BC or BU and you could see Holy Cross being in that mold in a few years. Plus it would help to have annother ECACHL school close by Boston, the epicenter of eastern hockey. Holy Cross has more than decent academics.
[edit adding]Holy Cross has drawbacks, too: student body only 2800 (vs. 9000 undergrads at BC), hockey rink only seats 1400 (Cornell plays there, there'd be no seats left for Holy Cross fans). Although Holy Cross' then-new athletic director in 1998 talked about increasing attendance and visibility among the "revenue sports" and cited ice hockey as one of them. Even at ten bucks a pop for tickets, no student discounts, full house, you'd still have a hard time making money. scholarships or no.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/02/2005 03:04PM by billhoward.
Re: Vermont misses NCAA's APR threshold
Posted by: jtwcornell91 (---.no.no.cox.net)
Date: March 02, 2005 09:25AM
[Q]billhoward Wrote:
We like Quinnipiac because we like what we think will become their informal school nickname[/q]
"What we think will become"? Dude, the Fighting Deerticks moniker is already entrenched.
We like Quinnipiac because we like what we think will become their informal school nickname[/q]
"What we think will become"? Dude, the Fighting Deerticks moniker is already entrenched.
Re: Vermont misses NCAA's APR threshold
Posted by: DeltaOne81 (---.raytheon.com)
Date: March 02, 2005 10:02AM
[Q]jtwcornell91 Wrote:
CornellChris Wrote:
Quinnipiac is replacing Vermont, right? They're at 968, which would be good for next to last in the new ECAC (Clarkson at 944). Still a significant improvement from Vermont's 900 though. I also see that Quinnipiac is #19 in those INCH Power Rankings linked in another thread (Vermont was #16). They also got a vote in the USA Today poll. Looks like they were a nice choice for the replacement!
[/Q]
I wouldn't get too excited about where they stand in the polls, or even in RPI, whose problems handling minor conference schedules are well-documented. Quinnipiac is
#49 in KRACH . In KASA, which takes home ice advantage into consideration, they're #48 . Vermont is #22 in both rankings. OTOH, Yale is #48 and #50, respectively.[/q]
Quinnipiac will be an interesting case study for the validity of the rankings - KRACH, PWR, and RPI.
It might be reasonably expected that QU will be approximately as good next year as they are this year. So if moving them to the ECAC jumps them from #49 to #30-35 simply on SOS, then its pretty good evidence that the systems (either explicitly or implicitly) overweight S.O.S. Hopefully we can judge whether they are a similar level team by their OOC results agains their old AHA buddies.
A similar case could be made for UVM, but since they're clearly an up and coming team last year to this year, its hard to say that they'll be the same next year. QU seems to have been more steady.
The ideal would be to have the identical team play the identical season twice is two different conferences, but obviously that's impossible. But to have three quarters of a steady team play in two conferences in two back to back years, with a sample of how they still do against their old conference, is about as good as we're gonna get.
Re: Vermont misses NCAA's APR threshold
Posted by: Hillel Hoffmann (---.usb.temple.edu)
Date: March 02, 2005 10:29AM
[Q]Beeeej Wrote: Last I heard, Cornell's varsity athletes had a higher...graduation rate...than the average student at Cornell. I think that's impressive.Beeeej[/q]
It is impressive, but far more common than people realize. When it comes to graduation rates, the national average for athletes is higher the national average for all students. Nationally, student-athletes have had higher graduation rates than non-athletes for nearly 20 years. For example, here at Temple -- a school with unique challenges that doesn't come out looking very good at all in the APR -- the graduation rate of student athletes is about 10 percentage points higher than the graduation rate of all TU students.
It is impressive, but far more common than people realize. When it comes to graduation rates, the national average for athletes is higher the national average for all students. Nationally, student-athletes have had higher graduation rates than non-athletes for nearly 20 years. For example, here at Temple -- a school with unique challenges that doesn't come out looking very good at all in the APR -- the graduation rate of student athletes is about 10 percentage points higher than the graduation rate of all TU students.
Re: Vermont misses NCAA's APR threshold
Posted by: KeithK (---.external.lmco.com)
Date: March 02, 2005 12:01PM
In order to understand the effect of conference on Quinnipiac 's rankings we'd have to control for the normal change in ranking from year to year. While this may not be right from a rigorous point of view, we can probably get an idea by looking at the year to year variation of all teams over the last x years (for as long as we can get data).
Looking at everyone doesn't take into account specific effects like number of players returning, points returning, number of seniors, etc. It might be better to try to find teams that have similar makeups (however you decide that) and compare only their results with Quinnipiac.
Again, this all depends on available data (and people willing to analyze it). But I think most of what would be needed is in the USCHO archives.
Looking at everyone doesn't take into account specific effects like number of players returning, points returning, number of seniors, etc. It might be better to try to find teams that have similar makeups (however you decide that) and compare only their results with Quinnipiac.
Again, this all depends on available data (and people willing to analyze it). But I think most of what would be needed is in the USCHO archives.
Re: Vermont misses NCAA's APR threshold
Posted by: adamw (---.benslm01.pa.comcast.net)
Date: March 02, 2005 01:39PM
Another factor in favor of Quinnipiac ... with this move, they will give 18 scholarships instead of 11. Holy Cross would be at zero scholarships either way. Theoretically, QU is only going to continue to improve on the ice. Don't assume they will always be a #45 KRACH team.
Re: Vermont misses NCAA's APR threshold
Posted by: billhoward (---.union01.nj.comcast.net)
Date: March 02, 2005 03:45PM
When you break out athlete graduation rates, you may see differences between walk-ons and recruited athletes, scholarhship and non-scholarhip athletes, and major and other sports. There might be differences between starters and reserves. (Some of the breakouts were covered in more detail in Bowen's second book.) At Temple, the Temple News (2/22) cites the higher overall graduation rate for athletes that you mention. But hasn't John Chaney had a running battle with the NCAA over the graduation rate of his players, with the water being muddied by a lot of name-calling back and forth?
Re: Vermont misses NCAA's APR threshold
Posted by: ganderson (---.its.yale.edu)
Date: March 02, 2005 03:53PM
Where did this nickname come from? (I guess I wasn't reading the boards at the right time myself...)
Re: Vermont misses NCAA's APR threshold
Posted by: Hillel Hoffmann (---.usb.temple.edu)
Date: March 02, 2005 04:11PM
[Q]billhoward Wrote: At Temple, the Temple News (2/22) cites the higher overall graduation rate for athletes that you mention. But hasn't John Chaney had a running battle with the NCAA over the graduation rate of his players, with the water being muddied by a lot of name-calling back and forth?[/q]
I can't talk about Chaney in a rational or calm way because I am/was/am/was (rinse and repeat) a huge fan and it's just too close. But I'm mighty proud of the student who wrote the article in The Temple News (our undergrad paper) that you mentioned. It was the first in a four-part series on the student-athlete experience. In fact, I paraphrased a sentence from the article without citing it. It was written by Benjamin Watanabe, the paper's sports editor. Nice work, Benjamin.
I can't talk about Chaney in a rational or calm way because I am/was/am/was (rinse and repeat) a huge fan and it's just too close. But I'm mighty proud of the student who wrote the article in The Temple News (our undergrad paper) that you mentioned. It was the first in a four-part series on the student-athlete experience. In fact, I paraphrased a sentence from the article without citing it. It was written by Benjamin Watanabe, the paper's sports editor. Nice work, Benjamin.
Re: Vermont misses NCAA's APR threshold
Posted by: jtwcornell91 (---.loyno.edu)
Date: March 02, 2005 06:31PM
[Q]ganderson Wrote:
Where did this nickname come from? (I guess I wasn't reading the boards at the right time myself...)[/q]
After they dropped the "Braves" nickname they spent a season with no nickname before settling on "Bobcats". During that year people (like Jayson and Becky, I think) made up nicknames for them, and "Fighting Deerticks" was the one that stuck.
Where did this nickname come from? (I guess I wasn't reading the boards at the right time myself...)[/q]
After they dropped the "Braves" nickname they spent a season with no nickname before settling on "Bobcats". During that year people (like Jayson and Becky, I think) made up nicknames for them, and "Fighting Deerticks" was the one that stuck.
Re: Vermont misses NCAA's APR threshold
Posted by: jeh25 (---.ri.ri.cox.net)
Date: March 02, 2005 08:46PM
[Q]jtwcornell91 Wrote:
ganderson Wrote:
Where did this nickname come from? (I guess I wasn't reading the boards at the right time myself...)[/Q]
After they dropped the "Braves" nickname they spent a season with no nickname before settling on "Bobcats". During that year people (like Jayson and Becky, I think) made up nicknames for them, and "Fighting Deerticks" was the one that stuck.[/q]
If memory serves, Age coined the name, if only because he needed a placeholder name for the CHDB. If I recall correctly, the other contender was the Quinnipiac Quahogs. But lyme disease is funnier than the Family Guy...or something.
Checking the archives reveals that the first eLF post refering to Quinnipiac as the Fighting Deerticks was, in fact, made by Age.
[elf.elynah.com]
From there, it stuck.
___________________________
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