Scheduling on USCHO
Posted by Scersk '97
Scheduling on USCHO
Posted by: Scersk '97 (---.dsl.chcgil.ameritech.net)
Date: October 28, 2004 06:39PM
From [www.uscho.com] :
"We're trying to help emerging leagues," said Berenson. "I think all of us have a responsibility to help college hockey. I'm of the old school where I just want to play the best teams and the best schools. But it's important to try to build up the emerging conferences. That's why it's been important to Atlantic Hockey that ECAC teams will play them. Do you think that Harvard would rather play UConn than Yale? It gives these younger leagues credibility. Once these leagues get established, we might go out there."
What a load of bull. Let's look at the eastern opponents on the Michigan schedule since 1998-99, as far back as USCHO goes:
1999: Niagara, Niagara (1-1)
2000: Yale (1-0)
2001: Colgate (Icebreaker), SLU, SLU, BC (GLI) (2-1-1)
2002: Providence (Omaha), Harvard (1-0-1)
2003: Niagara (Buffalo, Xerox), Merrimack, Merrimack, BU (GLI) (3-1)
2004: Mercyhurst, Quinnipiac, Quinnipiac, Niagara, BC (GLI) (4-1)
2005: Northeastern (Dayton), BU (Dayton), UNH, St. Lawrence, UNH (maybe, GLI)
Now, let's look at the standings placement of the ECAC teams in the two years prior to games (overwhelmingly in Ann Arbor):
Yale (2000): 1, 5
Colgate (2001): 6, 2
SLU (2001): 2, 1
Harvard (2002): 7, 3
SLU (2005): 9, 10
What I think this proves is that Red is scared of the big, bad, unpredictable ECAC(HL). In 2000, they barely beat Yale in Yale's first game of the season. Colgate tied them in the Icebreaker in 2001, they handly beat SLU (without their phenom goalie), and BC beat them at the GLI (in Detroit--another home game). Harvard tied them in 2002. Then, notice how the ECAC disappears from the schedule. SLU makes it back on in 2005, after a couple of "safe" years. The real story is, as above, that Red's boys are 4-0-2 against the ECAC(HL) with three of those wins coming against SLU. I guess they really are SLU(T)s up in Canton: Marsh and his boys let Red and his get what they want without reciprocation.
So, what was that about playing the best teams from the best schools, Red? Where are Clarkson and Cornell? Or was that tie in 1996 too scary.
Bah, Berenson's only interested in playing games in his own building that he knows he can win.
"We're trying to help emerging leagues," said Berenson. "I think all of us have a responsibility to help college hockey. I'm of the old school where I just want to play the best teams and the best schools. But it's important to try to build up the emerging conferences. That's why it's been important to Atlantic Hockey that ECAC teams will play them. Do you think that Harvard would rather play UConn than Yale? It gives these younger leagues credibility. Once these leagues get established, we might go out there."
What a load of bull. Let's look at the eastern opponents on the Michigan schedule since 1998-99, as far back as USCHO goes:
1999: Niagara, Niagara (1-1)
2000: Yale (1-0)
2001: Colgate (Icebreaker), SLU, SLU, BC (GLI) (2-1-1)
2002: Providence (Omaha), Harvard (1-0-1)
2003: Niagara (Buffalo, Xerox), Merrimack, Merrimack, BU (GLI) (3-1)
2004: Mercyhurst, Quinnipiac, Quinnipiac, Niagara, BC (GLI) (4-1)
2005: Northeastern (Dayton), BU (Dayton), UNH, St. Lawrence, UNH (maybe, GLI)
Now, let's look at the standings placement of the ECAC teams in the two years prior to games (overwhelmingly in Ann Arbor):
Yale (2000): 1, 5
Colgate (2001): 6, 2
SLU (2001): 2, 1
Harvard (2002): 7, 3
SLU (2005): 9, 10
What I think this proves is that Red is scared of the big, bad, unpredictable ECAC(HL). In 2000, they barely beat Yale in Yale's first game of the season. Colgate tied them in the Icebreaker in 2001, they handly beat SLU (without their phenom goalie), and BC beat them at the GLI (in Detroit--another home game). Harvard tied them in 2002. Then, notice how the ECAC disappears from the schedule. SLU makes it back on in 2005, after a couple of "safe" years. The real story is, as above, that Red's boys are 4-0-2 against the ECAC(HL) with three of those wins coming against SLU. I guess they really are SLU(T)s up in Canton: Marsh and his boys let Red and his get what they want without reciprocation.
So, what was that about playing the best teams from the best schools, Red? Where are Clarkson and Cornell? Or was that tie in 1996 too scary.
Bah, Berenson's only interested in playing games in his own building that he knows he can win.
Re: Scheduling on USCHO
Posted by: The Rancor (---.stny.rr.com)
Date: October 28, 2004 11:31PM
"My philosophy is that I won't play anyone who won't reciprocate," said Cornell head coach Mark Schafer. "Unless you can play a program both home and away, you're giving up something. Every school faces the same problem of wanting to face good schools to improve their own program. So they all want to get as many games at home as possible. Teams that do reciprocate help college hockey."
well said.... "Mark"
well said.... "Mark"
Re: Scheduling on USCHO
Posted by: Josh '99 (---.nyc.rr.com)
Date: October 29, 2004 02:50PM
Gee Scott, if I didn't know better I'd think you didn't like Michigan hockey or something. 
Re: Scheduling on USCHO
Posted by: bigggreddd77 (---.painewebber.com)
Date: October 29, 2004 04:40PM
When is the last time Cornell hosted a powerhouse when the students were actually in town???
Re: Scheduling on USCHO
Posted by: KeithK (---.external.lmco.com)
Date: October 29, 2004 05:31PM
[q]"My philosophy is that I won't play anyone who won't reciprocate," said Cornell head coach M[ike] Schafer[/q]In fairness, have we really reciprocated with the AH teams that we've played over the last few years?
If the NC$$ wanted to improve competition and fairness they could try to impose a requirement that xx % of non-conference games have to be on the road, or perhaps yy % over z cumulative years. But of course they're the NC$$ so this would never happen.
If the NC$$ wanted to improve competition and fairness they could try to impose a requirement that xx % of non-conference games have to be on the road, or perhaps yy % over z cumulative years. But of course they're the NC$$ so this would never happen.
Re: Scheduling on USCHO
Posted by: Jordan 04 (---.cust.telepacific.net)
Date: October 29, 2004 05:38PM
Does the fact that we haven't mean that we won't though?
Just a thought...
Just a thought...
Re: Scheduling on USCHO
Posted by: KeithK (---.external.lmco.com)
Date: October 29, 2004 05:46PM
[q]Does the fact that we haven't mean that we won't though? [/q]Not at all. But it would be pretty lousy if Schafer wasn't willing to reciprocate with Army or Mercyhurst. Pot/kettle and all. We certainly have reciprocated with other teams in the CCHA and HE though (e.g. WMU, Providence).
Re: Scheduling on USCHO
Posted by: Will (---.cable.mindspring.com)
Date: October 29, 2004 05:53PM
Is there any particular reason why Army, Sacred Heart, or Mercyhurst might not want us to reciprocate?
___________________________
Is next year here yet?
Is next year here yet?
Re: Scheduling on USCHO
Posted by: KeithK (---.external.lmco.com)
Date: October 29, 2004 06:01PM
[q]Is there any particular reason why Army, Sacred Heart, or Mercyhurst might not want us to reciprocate?[/q]Can't think of any.
I suppose it's possible that they're just happy to get a team like Cornell on their schedule, so they haven't pushed their luck by asking for reciprocity. But based on Schafer's quote, if I'm Shaun Hannah I'd be asking for a rematch in CT.
I suppose it's possible that they're just happy to get a team like Cornell on their schedule, so they haven't pushed their luck by asking for reciprocity. But based on Schafer's quote, if I'm Shaun Hannah I'd be asking for a rematch in CT.
Re: Scheduling on USCHO
Posted by: KeithK (---.external.lmco.com)
Date: October 29, 2004 06:04PM
As I think about this issue, I'm thinking it's not too unreasonable for a team in one of the established conferences to insist on only home games against teams from the CHA and MAAC, at least for the first few years of their existences. After all, you're essentially "wasting" a game on a new team for the sake of helping them get established. There should come a point when this startup period wears off though, I think.
Re: Scheduling on USCHO
Posted by: Jeff Hopkins '82 (---.mis.prserv.net)
Date: October 30, 2004 12:31PM
I can think of one. Let's say you're a new program trying to attract fans, and you wind up with an arena full of Lynah Faithful.
Can you say Bright Hockey Center?
Can you say Bright Hockey Center?
Re: Scheduling on USCHO
Posted by: Josh '99 (---.nyc.rr.com)
Date: October 30, 2004 04:24PM
[Q]Scersk '97 Wrote:
Bah, Berenson's only interested in playing games in his own building that he knows he can win.[/q]To back this up, other than neutral-site games, Michigan hasn't played a single game east of Columbus, Ohio since at least 1998-99.
Bah, Berenson's only interested in playing games in his own building that he knows he can win.[/q]To back this up, other than neutral-site games, Michigan hasn't played a single game east of Columbus, Ohio since at least 1998-99.
Re: Scheduling on USCHO
Posted by: min (24.99.147.---)
Date: October 30, 2004 05:43PM
i want to comment more generally on coach schafer's comment. the fact that cornell hasn't scheduled (or wasn't able to schedule) nc games with the so-called powerhouses (i think we all know who they are) in recent years, does that mean that those teams refuse to reciprocate with cornell?
i guess what i really want to know is which teams have refused to come to lynah, and why.
i guess what i really want to know is which teams have refused to come to lynah, and why.
Re: Scheduling on USCHO
Posted by: Jacob '06 (---.twcny.rr.com)
Date: October 30, 2004 06:14PM
I think the full article on uscho elaborates on this pretty well. It costs those teams money to not have games at home, and then there are travelling costs on top of that. They can get teams to play in their rink without reciprocation, so why submit to reciprocation with us? Also, Lynah is a pretty hostile environment and a loss to us on the road would damage their RPI. Overall, its pretty understandable why these teams won't play us, but its still annoying.
Need to change the RPI
Posted by: ithacat (---.twcny.rr.com)
Date: October 30, 2004 08:31PM
so that it rewards OOC road wins in a way that encourages teams to play tougher OOC games away from home. I know SOS factors into this but they need to figure something out for the good of the sport. I hate what's happening in college football where the BCS has given virtually no incentive for a Michigan to go to a place like Syracuse and instead stay in Ann Arbor collecting their Big House dollars against the San Diego States of college FB.
Short of that Cornell will need to either go on the road to play Minnesota or North Dakota or BC, or they can build a bigger Lynah (and figure out a way to fill it) to provide some incentive for the big boys to travel.
And btw, how does North Dakota fill a 10,000 seat arena? I know they play great hockey but they only have around 13,000 students.
Short of that Cornell will need to either go on the road to play Minnesota or North Dakota or BC, or they can build a bigger Lynah (and figure out a way to fill it) to provide some incentive for the big boys to travel.
And btw, how does North Dakota fill a 10,000 seat arena? I know they play great hockey but they only have around 13,000 students.
Re: Need to change the RPI
Posted by: jtwcornell91 (---.no.no.cox.net)
Date: October 30, 2004 08:36PM
KASA (KRACH Adjusted for Site Advantage) incorporates home ice in a natural way.
Re: Need to change the RPI
Posted by: Beeeej (---.nycmny83.dynamic.covad.net)
Date: October 30, 2004 09:10PM
[Q]ithacat Wrote:
And btw, how does North Dakota fill a 10,000 seat arena? I know they play great hockey but they only have around 13,000 students. [/q]
First of all, it's 11,500 seats; second, they fill it by being the most interesting thing happening in Grand Forks on most given Friday and Saturday nights.
Beeeej
And btw, how does North Dakota fill a 10,000 seat arena? I know they play great hockey but they only have around 13,000 students. [/q]
First of all, it's 11,500 seats; second, they fill it by being the most interesting thing happening in Grand Forks on most given Friday and Saturday nights.
Beeeej
___________________________
Beeeej, Esq.
"Cornell isn't an organization. It's a loose affiliation of independent fiefdoms united by a common hockey team."
- Steve Worona
Beeeej, Esq.
"Cornell isn't an organization. It's a loose affiliation of independent fiefdoms united by a common hockey team."
- Steve Worona
Re: Need to change the RPI
Posted by: ithacat (---.twcny.rr.com)
Date: October 30, 2004 09:18PM
Thanks for the correction. I imagine they have bars, movies, and music like Ithaca. I love it here but it's not as if we have MOMA, the Met, and Madison Square Garden. It's got to be more than that.
Re: Scheduling on USCHO
Posted by: Jim Hyla (---.twcny.rr.com)
Date: October 31, 2004 12:55PM
[Q]Scersk '97 Wrote:
Bah, Berenson's only interested in playing games in his own building that he knows he can win.[/Q]Hardly, since he plays Wisconsin and Minnesota in the College Hockey Showcase, as well as the Great Lakes Invitational, arguably the most difficult Christmas tournament year in and year out.
Bah, Berenson's only interested in playing games in his own building that he knows he can win.[/Q]Hardly, since he plays Wisconsin and Minnesota in the College Hockey Showcase, as well as the Great Lakes Invitational, arguably the most difficult Christmas tournament year in and year out.
___________________________
"Cornell Fans Made the Timbers Tremble", Boston Globe, March/1970
Cornell lawyers stopped the candy throwing. Jan/2005
"Cornell Fans Made the Timbers Tremble", Boston Globe, March/1970
Cornell lawyers stopped the candy throwing. Jan/2005
Re: Scheduling on USCHO
Posted by: Cornell Fan (---.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.co)
Date: October 31, 2004 03:03PM
We hosted Maine in Fall 2000 a week or two before winter break. At the time I believe Maine was ranked #7. That game ended in a 1-1 tie.
Re: Scheduling on USCHO
Posted by: Scersk '97 (---.dsl.chcgil.ameritech.net)
Date: October 31, 2004 03:52PM
[Q]Jim Hyla Wrote:
Scersk '97 Wrote:
Bah, Berenson's only interested in playing games in his own building that he knows he can win.[/Q]
Hardly, since he plays Wisconsin and Minnesota in the College Hockey Showcase, as well as the Great Lakes Invitational, arguably the most difficult Christmas tournament year in and year out.[/q]
If you look at the quote out of context, your interpretation, sure, makes some sense, but I framed my argument more around how Michigan seems to avoid coming east to play difficult teams. I believe the College Hockey Showcase is a traveling show, so Michigan hosts it every four years, no? And the GLI hardly counts as anything other than a home game for Michigan, unless they are playing against Michigan State. Also, in both an RPI/PWR and reputation sense, losing to Minnesota or Wisconsin is no great shame.
[Q]Berenson said:
"Do you think that Harvard would rather play UConn than Yale? It gives these younger leagues credibility. Once these leagues get established, we might go out there."[/Q]
One would think that Hockey Least and the ECAC(HL) are establshed leagues. So, why hasn't Michigan made some trips? Are they going to come to Lynah? Probably not. What about Boston, though? Or Maine in Portland? If they're concerned about gate, they could probably seek to play at a "neutral" location. The question is not whether Michigan plays tough teams, but rather why they don't come east to play tough teams.
Now, the answer? As has been abundantly examined above, the answer, as always, is mostly money. I'm sure some of the Hockey Least programs could spring for part of the bill, though. I think the answer is, also, a lack of backbone on the part of some eastern programs. Require the reciprocation and make Michigan fill their schedule, in order to look "fair," with eastern cupcakes, like North Dakota with Canisius a year or two ago.
The article seems motivated by the comments of Schafer and Vaughan, with Colgate/Cornell being the kind of weekend most schools should like to play to toughen up their schedule. Schafer's schedule for this year has come under criticism on this board, and I'm sure Vaughan has had many of the same problems at Colgate. Teams just simply won't reciprocate with us, whether because of money or because they're afraid. After what happened to BU in 2002-03, wouldn't you be? (Which, once again, points up that Jack Parker is practicing what Berenson preaches. Good for him.)
I'm starting to wonder if participation in the Everblades tournament is being used as a bargaining chip with some of these schools. Maine, after all, came to Lynah with seemingly no reciprocation, and Ohio State has been on our schedule quite a bit. When's BC coming in for a couple? (My own answer to that question, BC/BU already have an established relationship with Clarkson and St. Lawrence, so, if they added Colgate and Cornell, it would start to look like they're back in the ol' ECAC. Maybe it's time for Colgate and Cornell to steal them away from Clarkson and SLU, though.)
Re: Scheduling on USCHO
Posted by: jtwcornell91 (---.no.no.cox.net)
Date: October 31, 2004 09:50PM
[Q]Scersk '97 Wrote:
I'm starting to wonder if participation in the Everblades tournament is being used as a bargaining chip with some of these schools. Maine, after all, came to Lynah with seemingly no reciprocation[/q]
We played the Black Bears in Portland the season before they came to Lynah.
I'm starting to wonder if participation in the Everblades tournament is being used as a bargaining chip with some of these schools. Maine, after all, came to Lynah with seemingly no reciprocation[/q]
We played the Black Bears in Portland the season before they came to Lynah.
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