OT: NCAA wrestling championships

Time to move beyond Nickerson, etc.

This coming weekend the NCAA wrestling championships are being held in St. Louis. Eight Cornell wrestlers will be there. Three are seeded: Travis Lee, #1 at 133; Dustin Manotti, #6 at 149; and Matt Greenberg, #8 at 197.

NESN is televising the semifinals on tape-delay, Saturday, March 20, from 4-6pm EST. ESPN2 is televising the finals, live this year, from 6:30-9pm EST on the 20th. I believe they still run championship meets in ascending-weight sequence, so, if Travis gets to the semifinal and championship matches, his matches will be shown early in the broadcasts.

Manotti would likely face #3 Travis Shufelt of Nebraska in the quarterfinals. Greenberg gets a brutal draw, and would face #1 Damion Hahn of Minnesota should both advance to the quarters.

[Q]Al DeFlorio Wrote:
Greenberg gets a brutal draw, and would face #1 Damion Hahn of Minnesota should both advance to the quarters.
[/Q]Isn't 1 vs 8 standard for the QF? (Or did you mean that getting an 8 seed led to the brutal draw?)

In any event, thanks for the TV tip, Al. I didn't get to watch Lee's championship match last year until after I knew he had won.

[Q]ugarte Wrote:

Al DeFlorio Wrote:
Greenberg gets a brutal draw, and would face #1 Damion Hahn of Minnesota should both advance to the quarters.
Isn't 1 vs 8 standard for the QF? (Or did you mean that getting an 8 seed led to the brutal draw?)
[/Q]
The latter, obviously. There's no PWR in wrestling. Seedings are subjective. I'm not saying Greenberg isn't precisely the 8th-best wrestler in his weight-class in the country, only that by drawing the #8 seed he gets the defending champion at that weight (not all #8s get that opportunity) who has truly dominated the weight-class this season.

You must be working long hours again, because you've become very unpleasant lately.

[Q]Al DeFlorio Wrote:
You must be working long hours again, because you've become very unpleasant lately.
[/Q]

Huh? If you're referring to the message you just replied to, you must have run it through the cranky bastard filter, since it seemed like a straightforward question to me. (There are tournaments which are seeded in non-standard ways, like tennis tourneys or the fortunately defunct six-team NCAA baseball regionals.)

Peace, folks. Objective not-giving-a-fuck-about-wrestling poster detects 0% crankiness in this thread.

make peace not war ...

this one's for jeh25 & Will

[Q]Greg Berge Wrote:

Peace, folks. Objective not-giving-a-fuck-about-wrestling poster detects 0% crankiness in this thread. [/Q]
Upon rereading ugarte's posting, I can only agree with your and John's observations, Greg, and therefore extend apologies to the former apple. I had read his posting as saying I was whining or complaining about the seeding in some fashion, which was not at all my intention.

Damion Hahn is the defending champion at 197, and has gone through this season with only one loss (about which I can shed no further light). Other than, perhaps, Travis Lee, Hahn is as difficult an opponent as anyone in the tournament is likely to have, and what I was intending to say is that our guy Greenberg has one tough row to hoe.

At 149, Manotti's weight, the first and second seeds are pretty much standouts (#1 is from Harvard, of all places), but three through five were likely much less clear-cut in the seeding decisions. Manotti has a better chance of getting through to the televised semifinals, I guess is what I'm saying.

Apology accepted, hatchet buried, Al.

Early action:

125: Mike Mormile wins his first match 4-2 over Stanford's Tanner Gardner. He also catches a break (maybe) as his expected opponent, #3 Matt Valenti (Penn), lost in the first round to Buffalo's Mark McKnight. (Does anyone in this weight class have a first name that doesn't start with M?)

133: #1 Travis Lee pinned UC-Davis's Derek Moore.

149: #6 Dustin Manotti won his first round match against George Mason's Adrian Austin 7-2.

157: Scott Roth beat Brad Cieleski, Jr. of Slippery Rock 3-1.

165: Joe Mazzurco won his pigtail match against Leighton Brady of (Screw) BU 7-4, but was pinned in his first round match by John Sioredas of UT-Chatanooga. Good luck in the wrestlebacks, Joe.

174: Tyler Baier skunked Millersville's Curtis Yeager 11-0. Up next, #4 Ryan Lange from Purdue.

184: Jerry Rinaldi won his opening round match against Oklahoma's Justin Dyer 8-3. (Al, what does the tb in the score mean? If it is tiebreaker, shouldn't it be 4-3?)

197: #8 Matt Greenberg's draw just got far more brutal. He was pinned at 1:14 by Pitt's Josh Birt. Good luck in the wrestlebacks, Matt.

Yikes. Just noticed in a posting by nyc94 that Empire is televising Friday night's NCAA wrestling semifinals live from 7pm until 9:30.

If Travis Lee gets there, his match should be on somewhere between 7 and 8.

A day late with this....sorry guys but as you can see, Greenberg and the top two seeds in this weight class are all North Jersey kids...hence this story.

[www.northjersey.com]

Good luck to Matt!

Late session:

125: Mike Mormile lost to Buffalo's Mark McKnight 7-5 and will face UT-Chatanooga's Matt Pitts in the wrestlebacks. Pitts earlier defeated the #8 wrestler in the bracket.

133: #1 Travis Lee scored a technical fall over E. Illinois' Patrick Dowty, 19-4. He will face #8 Matt Sanchez of Cal-Bakersfield in the QF. Sanchez pinned the #9 wrestler in his second round match.

149: #6 Dustin Manotti advanced over #11 Jeff Ratliff of Ohio St. 5-2. Manotti will face #3 Travis Shufelt of Nebraska in the QF. Shufelt has cruised through his first two matches.

157: Scott Roth lost to #4 Jake Percival of Ohio U. 6-2. Percival is one of three undefeated wrestlers at 157. Roth will face Charlie Brenneman of Lock Haven in the wrestlebacks.

165: Joe Mazzurco defeated Christian Arellano of Cal-Bakersfield 15-6 in his first wrestleback match. He will next face #11 Tim Foley of Virginia.

174: Tyler Baier lost a close match to #4 Ryan Lange from Purdue 3-2. He will face Nick Roy of Michigan in the wrestlebacks.

184: Jerry Rinaldi dropped his second round match to #2 Ben Heizer of N. Illinois 8-4. He will next face #5 Travis Pascoe of Nebraska who was upset in the first round. (That is a tough draw.)

197: #8 Matt Greenberg's won his first wrestleback match against Venroy July of North Carolina 6-3. His next match is against West Virginia's Matt Daddino.

All of Cornell's wrestlers are still alive at the end of the first day, which is pretty impressive.

After Day 1, Cornell is tied with Oklahoma (led by former Cornell head coach Jack Spates) for 9th place. The Big 10 and Big 12 have 8 of the top 10 spots, the exceptions are Cornell and EIWA colleague (and champion) Lehigh (6th).

1.	30.0	Oklahoma St
2.	28.0	Illinois
3.	25.0	Nebraska
4.	23.5	Iowa
4.	23.5	Minnesota
6.	23.0	Lehigh
7.	22.5	Iowa St
8.	21.5	Michigan
9.	20.0	Cornell
9.	20.0	Oklahoma

Can you provide some background for the non-wrestlers? What is the tournament format? It sounds like double-elimination for early rounds. Is there a championship-round of single-elimination matches? How do the "wrestlebacks" work (seeding, consequences of winning or losing, etc.)?

EDIT: Also, how are team scores determined? And how high is Cornell ranked (what team score would be over or underachieving)?

Each weight has 12 seeded wrestlers. The other qualifiers are essentially assigned slots in the brackets by draw. Winners proceed through the brackets until there's a winner, a la the NCAA roundball tournament. The loser in the championship match finishes second.

When a wrestler loses his first match, he is put in the wrestleback, or consolation bracket. I can't tell you how these are slotted, other than the further you get in the "winner's bracket," the further along you are slotted in the wrestleback bracket. That is, two wrestlers who lost in the first round of the winner's bracket would wrestle in the first round of the wrestlebacks, and the winner of that match would face a wrestler who made it through the first round of the winner's bracket but lost in the second round. Wrestleback matches determine places three through eight in each weight class, and the top eight finishers all gain All-America status. So the last two wrestlers standing in the wrestleback bracket would wrestle for third and fourth place.

Can't tell you the specifics of scoring. Wrestlers earn points for their team depending on where they finish overall in their weight. At the EIWAs you earn bonus points for a major decision, technical fall, or fall, which also contribute to your team's score, and I'm sure this is also true in the NCAAs. (This last is why Cornell wrestled at a disadvantage in the EIWAs. The luck of the draw assigned Cornell six first-round byes, denying Cornell wrestlers the chance to pick up bonus points by pinning or major-decisioning unseeded wrestlers in these first-round matches. The other side of that coin, I suppose, is that you can't lose a match in which you have a bye.)

[Q]Al DeFlorio Wrote:
When a wrestler loses his first match, he is put in the wrestleback, or consolation bracket. I can't tell you how these are slotted, other than the further you get in the "winner's bracket," the further along you are slotted in the wrestleback bracket. That is, two wrestlers who lost in the first round of the winner's bracket would wrestle in the first round of the wrestlebacks, and the winner of that match would face a wrestler who made it through the first round of the winner's bracket but lost in the second round. [/Q]I think, based on a quick review of the brackets, that the semi-random slotting of the main draw also determines the wrestleback draw for the first consy round. (E.g., the person who lost to the top-ranked wrestler will face the person who lost to #1's second round opponent in the wrestleback round at the "top" of the consolation bracket.)

I can't tell how losers in subsequent rounds are slotted, though in brackets from prior years they appeared to be predetermined (i.e., each match is given a match number, and the wrestleback slots are assigned to the loser of particular matches, regardless of the seeding of the wrestler).

As for team results, in the 2/25 W.I.N. rankings (the most recent published rankings I could find), Cornell was #15.

I'll continue to post results at the end of each round, but the full brackets can be found at [www.ncaasports.com] .

EDIT: Age, can you fix this link? (Do you even read wrestling posts?)

EDIT: Apparently so. Thanks for the fix.

Apparently the period attached to the end of the URL was confusing it. Shoddy...

Lee pinned Matt Sanchez of Cal-Bakersfield to get to the semis tonight, where he'll face Zach Roberson of Iowa State, the fifth seed. Sixth-seeded Josh Moore of Penn State meets seventh-seeded Darrel Vasquez of Cal Poly-SLO in the other semi.

Manotti knocked off the three seed, Travis Shufelt of Nebraska, in a wild-and-wooly 10-7 match and will face second-seeded Zack Esposito of Oklahoma State in the semis tonight. What's with all the Zac's?

With quarterfinals matches and corresponding wrestlebacks still in process, Cornell is in fifth place with 36 points, trailing Illinois' 42. But this will change as the round is completed.

EDIT: Al, you're too quick for me.

[Q]Al DeFlorio Wrote:
What's with all the Zac's?
[/Q]

I read an interesting article last year in (I believe) the NY Times Sunday Magazine about popularity of names through the 20th century. Someone at the Social Security Administration decided to rank names by year - if anyone has that information they do.
[www.ssa.gov]
The article went on to say that somewhat simultaneously and independently parents in different regions seem to come up with what they think is a unique or at least less common name. Hence, you get years with lots of Zacs - or Caitlins, Britneys Ashleys for girls. If you look at the top 10 by year it's pretty unremarkable in the 1960s and 1970s. In the late 1980s and 1990s boys names like Tyler and Zachary cracked the top 10. Don't we have a Tyler Mugford coming in this year?

125: Mike Mormile was pinned by Matt Pitts in the wrestlebacks.

133, 149: As Al reported, #1 Travis Lee and #6 Dustin Manotti both advanced to the semis. In so doing, they have clinched All-American status (and, I think, no worse than 6th place).

157: Scott Roth was pinned by Charlie Brenneman of Lock Haven in the wrestlebacks.

165: Joe Mazzurco was skunked 10-0 by #11 Tim Foley of Virginia.

174: Tyler Baier defeated Nick Roy of Michigan 9-2 in the second round of wrestlebacks, but then fell to Buffalo's Ed Pawlak 8-5. Unseeded Pawlak is having quite a run through the wrestlebacks after narrowly losing to the #2 wrestler in the first round.

184: Jerry Rinaldi fell to #5 Travis Pascoe 9-5.

197: #8 Matt Greenberg's won his second wrestleback match against West Virginia's Matt Daddino 11-6. He followed up the win by defeating Kevin Kessner (Wyoming) 5-1. His next match is against #5 B.J. Padden (Nebraska). If I am reading the bracket correctly, a win will clinch 8th place and All-America status for Greenberg.

[Q]The article went on to say that somewhat simultaneously and independently parents in different regions seem to come up with what they think is a unique or at least less common name.[/Q]From what I've read/heard, the popularity of names can often be traced to elements in popular culture. Parents might think they are independantly picking a unique or uncommon name, but they're often just picking up on things that are in public consciousness at the time. Examples: a character's name in a popular movie or a celebrity. This seems more likely to me than names becoming common through random chance.

[Q]nyc94 Wrote:I read an interesting article last year in (I believe) the NY Times Sunday Magazine about popularity of names through the 20th century. ... If you look at the top 10 by year it's pretty unremarkable in the 1960s and 1970s. In the late 1980s and 1990s boys names like Tyler and Zachary cracked the top 10. Don't we have a Tyler Mugford coming in this year? [/Q]My favorite article along these lines was by WaPo columnist Gene Weingarten. He said that the name Madison, #2 among girls in 2002, didn't appear on the list at all ... until the release of the movie "Splash."

It has been climbing the charts ever since.

The period at the end of URL bug has been fixed.

[uscho.com].

[Q]KeithK Wrote:
From what I've read/heard, the popularity of names can often be traced to elements in popular culture. Parents might think they are independantly picking a unique or uncommon name, but they're often just picking up on things that are in public consciousness at the time. Examples: a character's name in a popular movie or a celebrity. This seems more likely to me than names becoming common through random chance. [/Q]

That's probably true that it's not entirely random but for whatever reason, pop culture was barely mentioned in the article (I'm just the messenger). I think they did point out that Britney Spears is part of a bubble of Britney's but not the start of one (although she could be driving in on - or killing it).

Note the rise in the name "Peyton" after 1995. Thankfully, the name "Nomah" isn't in the top-1000.

Another interesting effect: My name, "Richard" was in the top-10 from 1922 until 1970. I expect it probably took a bigger nose-dive after 1973.

[Q]That's probably true that it's not entirely random but for whatever reason, pop culture was barely mentioned in the article (I'm just the messenger).[/Q]But it's fun to shoot the messenger!!!

Lee upset by Roberson. Manotti loses to Esposito. Greenberg wins by default over Padden to clinch a top-8 finish. Now have three wrestlers still alive in the wrestlebacks. All three will be All-Americans, but no champs this year.

Someone posting on an EIWA message board heard on the Penn State broadcast that Greenberg was hurt and that Coach Koll was "ready to go after" Padden, Greenberg's opponent from Nebraska. The NCAA brackets show Greenberg winning by default at 2:19. Don't know what really happened.

Ohio State's Bergman advances over Greenberg by a medical default. Looks like Matt winds up 8th, if he can't wrestle further. Still don't know what happened.

All three will be All-Americans, but no champs this year.

Well, at least there may be one Ivy champ - Harvard #1 seed and 3 time All American Jesse Jantzen goes for the win tomorrow live on ESPN 2 at 6pm.

#1 Travis Lee will face #3 Johnny Thompson (Oklahoma St.). Both wrestlers were champs in 2003; Lee at 125 and Thompson at 133.

#6 Dustin Manotti will face #10 Jeff Ecklof (Oklahoma). Manotti beat Ecklof earlier this year 11-7.

The winners of the Lee and Manotti matches advance to the 3d place match; the losers go to the 5th place match.

If he can wrestle tomorrow, #8 Matt Greenberg will face Kyle Cerminara (Buffalo) in the 7th place match. According to the writeup, Padden lifted Greenberg and slammed him on his head. Greenberg won by default and Nebraska had a point taken away from their team total for unsportsmanlike conduct.

[cornellbigred.ocsn.com]

Cornell is currently 11th in the team rankings with three wrestlers still active.

1. 97.5 Oklahoma St 
2. 70.0 Iowa 
3. 66.5 Nebraska 
4. 59.5 Illinois 
5. 58.5 Lehigh 
6. 57.0 Iowa St 
7. 48.0 Minnesota 
7. 48.0 Oklahoma 
9. 44.5 Michigan 
9. 44.5 Ohio St 
11. 43.0 Cornell 
12. 39.5 Penn State 
13. 37.5 Missouri

Names definitely go in cycles, tho it's not always linked to pop culture. Like someone said, couples who are expecting often want a name that's "unique." While researching names, they'll hear of somebody - a friend, an acquaintance, whomever - who named their child something that sounds new and different. They'll latch onto the name and use it. Problem is, that friend did the same thing. What you wind up with is a daisy chain of uniquely named kids all with the same name.

Jeff was a popular name when I was born. I could never find toy license plates or keychains with my name on it as a kid. They were always sold out. There were three Jeffs on my hallway in U-hall 4 my freshman year out of 16 guys. But I can't think of a pop culture reason for it.

Zach was definitely one of the "hot" names for boys in the early-mid 80s. My cousin Zach, who's 18, told me so. This thread bears that out. Emily and Amanda were two of the popular girls names at the time (they're Zach's sisters).

One of the hot boys names now is Connor. I'm related to one of them, too - my 4 year old nephew. I have at least two friends with nephews named Connor or Conor as well. Watch for players named Connor in the class of 2020-2024!

JH

[Q]Jeff Hopkins '82 Wrote:

Watch for players named Connor in the class of 2020-2024!

JH [/Q]


I'll have to try and remember to find and then quote this message in 20 years

There are cycles and regional variations, or at least there used to be. Through elementary school there were four of us Davids in my class from second grade through fifth grade. For sixth grade we lost one of them, but two more moved in. On the other hand, half way across the country, my wife says she made it all the way through high school without meeting a David.

[Q]Avash '05 Wrote:

[Q] Jeff Hopkins '82 Wrote:

Watch for players named Connor in the class of 2020-2024![/q]


I'll have to try and remember to find and then quote this message in 20 years [/Q]In 20 years I won't be surprised if we have a player named Avash. (Even if it isn't Avash '05, Jr.)

Al,
Any further info about the injury to Greenberg?

[Q]ben03 Wrote:

Al,
Any further info about the injury to Greenberg?
[/Q]

Surprisingly (to me, at least), he was able to wrestle today and won the match for 7th place by a 6-2 score over Kyle Cerminara of Buffalo.

Good to hear he was well enough to wrestle ... and win! His career def deserves to go out with a win.

Harvard's Jesse Jantzen is named Most Outstanding Wrestler of the tourney - thoughts Al??

[Q]JohnnieAg'99 Wrote:

Harvard's Jesse Jantzen is named Most Outstanding Wrestler of the tourney - thoughts Al?? [/Q]
A good choice. Jantzen dominated the weight class. He's a senior. He was very aggressive in the championship match, winning easily. Letters beat arguably the toughest opponent, but after taking the lead he sort of sat on it. Powell also dominated at 125. Don't recall if Powell is a senior or not, and that, as we all know from past ECAC hockey choices, is a factor.

Final results:

133: #1 Travis Lee lost to #3 Johnny Thompson (Oklahoma St.), but rebounded to shut out #4 Foley Dowd of Michigan 12-0 to take 5th place.

149: #6 Dustin Manotti pinned #10 Jeff Ecklof (Oklahoma) to move into the 3d place match, where he lost to #4 Ryan Churella of Michigan to finish in 4th place.

197: As Al reported, despite his injury the day before, #8 Matt Greenberg defeated unseeded Kyle Cerminara (Buffalo) 6-2 to finish in 7th place.

Cornell finished in 11th place in the team rankings. This was the top placement among Ivy League schools and second place among EIWA schools, behind Lehigh.

1. Oklahoma State   123 1/2
2. Iowa  82
3  Lehigh 77 1/2
  Ohio State   
5. Nebraska 74
6. Iowa State 70
7. Illinois  69 1/2
8. Minnesota 65 1/2
9. Oklahoma 62 1/2
10. Michigan 60 1/2
11. Cornell 51 1/2
12. Penn State 46 1/2
13. Missouri 43
14. Penn 34

Another great team put together and prepared by Head Coach Rob Koll. Congratulations to the Cornell All-Americans, the wresting team and even Jesse Jantzen.

EDIT: Revised to make Al's comment below look like a dirty slander. (Actually revised so that Coach Koll's name is correct when I am praising him.)

[Q]ugarte Wrote:

Another great team put together and prepared by Head Coach Bruce Koll. Congratulations to the Cornell All-Americans, the wresting team and even Jesse Jantzen.
[/Q]
Rob Koll.

[Q]Al DeFlorio Wrote:

ugarte Wrote:

Another great team put together and prepared by Head Coach Bruce Koll. Congratulations to the Cornell All-Americans, the wresting team and even Jesse Jantzen.

Rob Koll.
[/Q]Absolutely right, Al, and I knew that. I'm going to have to stop drinking in the mornings.