Vermont to Hockey East?

Just saw this at USCHO:

The University of Vermont has initiated talks with Hockey East on moving its membership in men's and women's hockey there, and out of the ECAC. This was done through a letter of inquiry. No timeline or format for discussions has been announced. There is not yet any further comment from Hockey East or Vermont at this time. Continue to follow USCHO for further developments.

Implications if it happens?

Jay Fisher '90

If UVM does leave, does the ECAC then try to draw someone like Mercyhurst or Quinnipiac in?

And why would Hockey East want UVM?

Grant MacIntyre '05 wrote:
And why would Hockey East want UVM?

Why wouldn't Hockey East want UVM? They are a New England team with a tradition, a following (they still have a following, right Christine?) and a Division-I sports program. Even though they stink right now, they are probably the most attractive ECAC program to HE (if HE is looking to expand).

Well, that's good, since they're obviously dominating the ECAC, moving to Hockey East is the next logical step. The health of their program is as strong as it's going to be here.

More than anything, this smells like a case of New Hampshire envy...

This actually sounds very logical to me. UVM is a state school and many teams in HE are state schools. UVM has a strong hockey tradition and I believe they are looking into building a new arena. HE fans want Harvard but there is no way Harvard would split from the Ivy League. Is there a better school to take the HE to a 10 team format? If there is any time for Vermont to go, it is now. This season, they are one of the most defeated teams in the country! The ECAC can take in Holy Cross -- even if they don't win many games, they're still doing as well as Vermont and the travel pairings aren't messed up too much. Holy Cross is a private institution with quality academics. See ya, Vermont! You goon!



Post Edited (12-18-03 17:57)

This possibility has been speculated about for a long time. As Adam mentioned, UVM is more similar to many of the HE schools than many in the ECAC. They're the only non-Ivy ECAC school that's not in New York. HE only has 9 teams and would beneift from a tenth in that everyone could play two games every weekend without scheduling difficulties. UVM has a natural rivalry with UNH and Maine.

If this wasn't appearing on USCHo, I'd dismiss it as random speculation/rumors. But maybe Sneddon, et. al. think that membership in HE would help them with recruiting and help make them a top program again. No idea how much their current futility would hurt their chances.

If this were to happen (and I imagine that it's still far from certain) then I'm sure the ECAC would look to expand back to 12 teams. An uneven number plays havoc on scheduling, esp. with a travle partner setup.

If nothing else, this ought to be fodder for taunts when UVM comes to town. As if we needed any extra ammunition...

Cue the Niagara rumors...

[q]Is there a better school to take the HE to a 10 team format?[/q]

UConn would be an even better fit. Not only are they a state school, they are closer to Providence (READ: travel partners), and they are a Big East member as well.

UVM still has a following, albeit smaller and still a bit quiet at the moment. The waiting list for season tickets had been huge so the ticket holders that were lost in the Bad, Worse and Really Awful years could be filled from the list. (Not that they all show up every weekend.) Even though UNH beats on UVM most years, the UNH game is still one of the more popular with the natives. It wouldn't surprise me at all if the rumors of UVM's Hockey East interest have some validity this time around.

big red apple wrote:

Grant MacIntyre '05 wrote:
And why would Hockey East want UVM?

Why wouldn't Hockey East want UVM? They are a New England team with a tradition, a following (they still have a following, right Christine?) and a Division-I sports program. Even though they stink right now, they are probably the most attractive ECAC program to HE (if HE is looking to expand).

Likewise, I could see HE stealing UConn from AH *if* UConn can find a good head coach that can build a good team while living in basketball's shadow. However, building a solid hockey team is not a forgone conclusion given that hockey will always be a distant 4th behind women's basketball, men's basketball, and now football.

Assuming HE has a 5 to 10 year plan to expend, who is the logical 12th team if UVM and UConn are ten and eleven? Do they take Quinnipiac or Holy Cross, effectively killing AH or do they try to get a D3 school like St Anselm to come up?

Likewise, if UVM leaves the ECAC, who does the ECAC try to get as a 12th team? Bring back Army? Invite UConn and pair them with Yale? Canisius? Get a D3 team like Plattsburg, Oswego or RIT to come up? Frankly, none seem like a good fit with the ECAC philosophy other than maybe RIT.

John E Hayes '98 '00 wrote:

Assuming HE has a 5 to 10 year plan to expend, who is the logical 12th team if UVM and UConn are ten and eleven? Do they take Quinnipiac or Holy Cross, effectively killing AH or do they try to get a D3 school like St Anselm to come up?

Likewise, if UVM leaves the ECAC, who does the ECAC try to get as a 12th team? Bring back Army? Invite UConn and pair them with Yale? Canisius? Get a D3 team like Plattsburg, Oswego or RIT to come up? Frankly, none seem like a good fit with the ECAC philosophy other than maybe RIT.

Let's assume HE takes UVM and UConn. If they also take Quinnipiac, then I imagine the ECAC will take Holy Cross, or vice versa. At that point, I agree that Atlantic Hockey would be effectively dead; I don't know if they could survive with just the six remaining teams. I wonder what the feasibility of those teams joining up with CHA would be (they'd lose an NCAA autobid but gain a little more security in their conference).

I would think that HE's 12th team would be URI which IIRC is starting a program in the near future. They might as well get a matched set of all six NE state schools.

As to the ECAC, I wrote on USCHO that the most likely replacement for UVM is Holy Cross although Niagara is also a distinct possibility. Can't you Ivy Leagures convince Penn to start up again? It really makes more sense especially as a travel partner for Princeton.

HC wouldn't cause much of a problem with the travel partner set up, but Niagara would.

A D-III school is not possible. There is a moratorium (probably permanent) on schools moving up.

ursaminor wrote:
HC wouldn't cause much of a problem with the travel partner set up, but Niagara would.

Tell me about it. Cornell-Niagara would be a hell of a road trip for the New England schools, and if you don't want to break up the Union-RPI travle partnership, you have to pair Colgate with Princeton. (And Brown with Yale and Harvard with Dartmouth as in the Army days.)

Well, if we're plotting the demise of Atlantic Hockey, what about Mercyhurst? That's not a bad travel partner for Niagara. Although the obvious partner for Niagara is Canisius, and Mercyhurst might be a better fit for the CCHA.

So to complete the slice and dice...

In CHA, move Air Force and Bemidji to the WCHA, Niagara to the ECAC, and Findlay and Wayne State to the CCHA. Huntsville doesn't fit anywhere, but they're a better fit with the CCHA than anywhere else.

In AH, move UConn and Quinnipiac to HE, Canisius and Holy Cross to the ECAC, Mercyhurst to the CCHA.

Army, Sacred Heart, AIU, and Bentley split between the ECAC and HEA, depending on their scholarship goals.

So the WCHA adds two, CCHA adds 4, ECAC adds three and loses 1, HEA adds three, with four TBD.

Give each conference two autobids. One for the tourney champ and one for the regular season champ.

JH

14 teams in the ECAC? That's 26 regular season games which leaves the Ivies with only 3 out of conference games - unless you split it into two divisions. I've never been a fan of unbalanced schedules.

Robert Morris is still grappling with which conference to apply to--AH or CHA.



Post Edited (12-20-03 19:45)

The ECAC should NOT get any bigger than 12 teams, in order to give each conference opponent equal opportunities against each other and still allow the Ivies to play a decent amount of non-conference games.

12 teams is an ideal size for the ECAC.

If we were to lose UVM, the addition of *what* would most help the conference? I see three priorities:

1) A genuine and dependable commitment to hockey (no more Army)
2) Match the conference academic profile (no more UVM)
3) A larger market (no more, well, almost all of us)

Assume there wont be a sudden hockey epiphany at Columbia, Penn, or St. Johns. What are good choices? Anybody up for taking a run at Providence?

Bill '94:

You're assuming that each team would play each other twice like now. Back before Hockey East was formed, the Ivies would play each other twice, but would only play the non-Ivies once. I'm not sure how it worked for the non-Ivies, but I'm guessing the Beanpot was part of the regular season.

In a 14 team conference that would give 18 mandatory games. The other games could be played in-conference or OOC.

JH

Providence maybe. Or, how about Northeastern?

let's just go after BC or BU while we're at it... I should put some sort of smiley after that comment



Post Edited (12-21-03 15:49)

There is one obvious class act to invite and it would be a decent travel partner for Dartmouth, a strong hockey committment and a nice place to visit; this school would be a stroong replacement Middlebury.

Brilliant idea - genuinely brilliant. An academically strong school with a great hockey tradition.

There's still the Div. III step-up moratorium problem, though.

Beeeej

Middlebury definitely should be D1. It would embroil some of the other D3 schools, but an exception should be made for them.

IF Vermont leaves,
Niagara is going to replace them.
There will not be 14 ecac teams, there will be 12.
Canisius will be sad.

you're way off from the traditional Haiku form...

Niagara? Certainly a possibility but...Niagara? Does the safety school chant even work for them? Are their academics good enough that they'd even be considered a safety school? I think that's the true test of who should be a candidate...for the similar reason, I don't think Mercyhurst would be a candidate. I don't mean to be pompous but the ECAC prides itself on academics.

[Q]Middlebury definitely should be D1. It would embroil some of the other D3 schools, but an exception should be made for them[/Q]

Unfortunately it is Middlebury's own president who is spearheading the D-III proposal aimed at D-III schools playing up in one sport. The chances of him promoting his own hockey team up to D-I are slim to none. I agree, though, Middlebury would make a perfect fit for the ECAC.

Pete Godenschwager wrote:

[Q]Middlebury definitely should be D1. It would embroil some of the other D3 schools, but an exception should be made for them[/Q]

Unfortunately it is Middlebury's own president who is spearheading the D-III proposal aimed at D-III schools playing up in one sport. The chances of him promoting his own hockey team up to D-I are slim to none. I agree, though, Middlebury would make a perfect fit for the ECAC.

Can you give us some background on the Middlebury president being behind this. I was blaming the holier than thou folks at Williams. It is the kind of foolishness they love!

Marty'74 wrote:

Can you give us some background on the Middlebury president being behind this. I was blaming the holier than thou folks at Williams. It is the kind of foolishness they love!

Middlebury College president John McCardell is also the chair of the Division III Presidents Council. He's been in the thick of the D-III scholarship "reform" legislation for a while now, probably since the beginning. A cursory Google search brought up a McCardell quote from this article ( [uscollegehockey.com] ):

[Q]"What defines Division III is that we do not give scholarships...There was not a compelling case to keep this exception."[/Q]

It would appear silly if one of the key figures in D-III sports would suddenly have his school move up to D-I (or at least have his school's hockey program move up). That being said, if it would happen and get past the moratorium, we're almost assured to have Middlebury be a scholarship-free program and a perfect fit for the ECAC.

EDIT: Fixed my link.



Post Edited (12-21-03 19:28)

Did anyone else know that (from the article OOTGWGROV posted)

[Division III schools playing up] cannot ... share in the revenue of the respective NCAA tournaments.[/Q]So CC, SLU and Clarkson don't get a share of their conference's take? Even if they qualify themselves? Harsh.

this is crazy and after being away for two weeks i have to read up on all this. i am glad that we are planning to make the dc/vermont road trip this year since it may not exist next year!

Jeff Hopkins '82 wrote:

You're assuming that each team would play each other twice like now. Back before Hockey East was formed, the Ivies would play each other twice, but would only play the non-Ivies once. I'm not sure how it worked for the non-Ivies, but I'm guessing the Beanpot was part of the regular season.

In the years immediately before HE was formed, the non-Ivies were divided into two groups, the East -- BU, BC, Maine, UNH, Northeastern, and Providence, and the West -- Colgate, Clarkson, SLU, RPI, and UVM. Each of the three groups played two games against each team within their group and one game with each team in the other two groups. Thus, the Ivies and the Eastern teams played 21-game league seasons and the western teams played 20. I am pretty sure that the Beanpot did not count.

Before about 1979, you could schedule whomever you wanted and a smoke-filled room decided who would make the ECAC Tourney.

[q]Before about 1979, you could schedule whomever you wanted and a smoke-filled room decided who would make the ECAC Tourney.[/q]

Well not quite. There were standings and there were known bases for making the tournament.

It was how teams got into the NCAAs from the east that was done in the smoke filled room (in Boston, if I may add).

JH

And I think all ECAC vs. ECAC games counted even if they occurred due to an "extra" game such as during a Christmas tournament.

Marty'74 wrote:

And I think all ECAC vs. ECAC games counted even if they occurred due to an "extra" game such as during a Christmas tournament.

Right, Marty.

Prior to the 64-65 season, the ECAC was a somewhat strange collection of teams--with Williams, Amherst, Middlebury, etc., included along with BU, BC, Clarkson, SLU, Harvard, etc. A lot of judgment went into seedings in 1962, 1963, and 1964 to take into account strength of schedule. After that standings (based on percentage) were a strong factor but still not the only factor, as there were real imbalances in the schedules, with some teams playing 15 or fewer league games while others may have played 23 or more.

Yet another hockey program seems about to fold according to the front page of USCHO. Findlay is going to leave the CHA. The CHA won't be eligible for an NCAA autobid anymore. After this Vermont thing and also the Division 1/3 scholarship proposition we could very likely be seeing a major shakeup in the makeup of the leagues in D1

i think that the rest of the leagues will adopt the cha leftovers. we shall see though...

jy3 wrote:

i think that the rest of the leagues will adopt the cha leftovers. we shall see though...

Another possibility is that some team in AH might be irritated by the scholarship limits in that league and might jump to the CHA. Perhaps Mercyhurst or Quinnipiac...

Bill Fenwick wrote:

Another possibility is that some team in AH might be irritated by the scholarship limits in that league and might jump to the CHA. Perhaps Mercyhurst or Quinnipiac...

That's precisely what I think. I predicted it would be whatever MAAC team it was last year that was rumored to be courting CHA membership, but instead went off with the new Atlantic Hockey. Sources seem to conflict on whether that team was Mercyhurst or Quinnipiac, though. (Unless it was both?)

According to a USCHO post, it was Mercyhurst.