The End of Ivy Hockey Competitiveness?
Posted by Jim Hyla
The End of Ivy Hockey Competitiveness?
Posted by: Jim Hyla (---.arthritishealthdoctors.com)
Date: November 19, 2013 07:46AM
Are we seeing the end of Ivy hockey competitiveness in the ECAC and NCAA? Or is it just an early season fluke, that the bottom six teams in the ECAC are Ivy League teams and the top six teams all give athletic scholarships? Yes, I know that Yale hasn't played as many games and can move up the ladder, but...
Now it can be argued that, with their tuition policy, HYP give scholarships, but with the possible exception of Yale, it seems increasingly difficult for the Ivy League teams to keep up. You can also argue that it is early in the season and the Ivy League starts later than the other schools. However, does that mean that they are really starting behind and it's increasingly difficult to catch up?
Personally, I think the Ivy League has to allow earlier games. But will that be enough? Should we only play other Ivies for the first month? I don't know the answer, but I think there is a problem.
___________________________
"Cornell Fans Made the Timbers Tremble", Boston Globe, March/1970
Cornell lawyers stopped the candy throwing. Jan/2005
"Cornell Fans Made the Timbers Tremble", Boston Globe, March/1970
Cornell lawyers stopped the candy throwing. Jan/2005
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/19/2013 07:47AM by Jim Hyla.
Re: The End of Ivy Hockey Competitiveness?
Posted by: Trotsky (---.dc.dc.cox.net)
Date: November 19, 2013 08:07AM
> Are we seeing the end of Ivy hockey competitiveness in the ECAC and NCAA?
No. For goodness sake, Yale just won the NCAAs last year.
> Or is it just an early season fluke, that the bottom six teams in the ECAC are Ivy League teams and the top six teams all give athletic scholarships?
Yes, it's just a fluke. Also, I thought Union did not give athletic scholarships.
The Ivies should conform to ECAC rules for number of games, earliest practices and games, etc. There should be no distinct "Ivy" sub-entity within the ECAC when it comes to those operational rules.
Cornell should also get in line with HYP on grants for all but the wealthiest students, but that's a larger social issue.
Never relax academic standards. If anything, increase them. If that affects competitiveness, so be it. We are not Quinnipiac.
Never replace Lynah with an anonymous corporate arena, particularly since Ag students are adroit with ammonium nitrate.
No. For goodness sake, Yale just won the NCAAs last year.
> Or is it just an early season fluke, that the bottom six teams in the ECAC are Ivy League teams and the top six teams all give athletic scholarships?
Yes, it's just a fluke. Also, I thought Union did not give athletic scholarships.
The Ivies should conform to ECAC rules for number of games, earliest practices and games, etc. There should be no distinct "Ivy" sub-entity within the ECAC when it comes to those operational rules.
Cornell should also get in line with HYP on grants for all but the wealthiest students, but that's a larger social issue.
Never relax academic standards. If anything, increase them. If that affects competitiveness, so be it. We are not Quinnipiac.
Never replace Lynah with an anonymous corporate arena, particularly since Ag students are adroit with ammonium nitrate.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/19/2013 08:09AM by Trotsky.
Re: The End of Ivy Hockey Competitiveness?
Posted by: Kyle Rose (---.c3-0.smr-ubr2.sbo-smr.ma.static.cable.rcn.com)
Date: November 19, 2013 08:11AM
I think the athletic scholarship thing is a red herring. The Ivies already give athletic scholarships: they're called financial aid, and they level the playing field when recruiting athletes not from wealthy families. That's probably enough, because there are surely more than enough good hockey players from poor and middle class families.
I basically think the game limit should be raised or eliminated. As long as the students are still required to maintain a certain level of academic performance, I'm not sure the league should assume that fewer games = greater academic focus.
I basically think the game limit should be raised or eliminated. As long as the students are still required to maintain a certain level of academic performance, I'm not sure the league should assume that fewer games = greater academic focus.
Re: The End of Ivy Hockey Competitiveness?
Posted by: Trotsky (---.dc.dc.cox.net)
Date: November 19, 2013 08:50AM
That's what I was trying to get at. If they eliminate the games limit and academics suffers, then OK, go back to limiting the games. But at the moment it smacks of a solution in search of a problem. And if they were serious they would, say, limit Architecture majors to 12 games. (Pat Heaphy, IIRC?)Kyle Rose
I basically think the game limit should be raised or eliminated. As long as the students are still required to maintain a certain level of academic performance, I'm not sure the league should assume that fewer games = greater academic focus.
Unless the games limit is something the athletes and coaches want. If so, they should know. But my impression is it's something that well-meaning ADs and schools administrators have levied on them.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/19/2013 08:54AM by Trotsky.
Re: The End of Ivy Hockey Competitiveness?
Posted by: gomestar (199.67.140.---)
Date: November 19, 2013 10:15AM
Kyle Rose
The Ivies already give athletic scholarships: they're called financial aid, and they level the playing field when recruiting athletes not from wealthy families. That's probably enough, because there are surely more than enough good hockey players from poor and middle class families.
I'd guess that this pool is very limited for hockey players. It's a really expensive sport to play both in terms of equipment and league fees. And I'd venture a guess that most of Cornell's roster wasn't "home-grown" talent of sorts, rather kids who had the ability to be moved around to play in leagues like the USHL or BCHL by the time they hit their mid-late teens. Doesn't strike me as a lower class type of move.
Re: The End of Ivy Hockey Competitiveness?
Posted by: RichH (134.223.116.---)
Date: November 19, 2013 10:53AM
I think this "This is the end of Ivy/small school competitiveness" question been raised in every era since the beginning of national television coverage...probably even before.
I subscribe to all facets of Trotsky's manifesto outline.
I would like to see three things:
1) Increase of the game limit to be on par with the rest of the NCAA schools.
2) Allow earlier practice/season starts.
3) Remove the ban on post-season football. It's unnecessary in the age of the Championship Subdivision.
Union still doesn't offer athletic scholarships, and up until 2004, neither did Colgate (leading to this ironic-sounding headline)
I subscribe to all facets of Trotsky's manifesto outline.
I would like to see three things:
1) Increase of the game limit to be on par with the rest of the NCAA schools.
2) Allow earlier practice/season starts.
3) Remove the ban on post-season football. It's unnecessary in the age of the Championship Subdivision.
Union still doesn't offer athletic scholarships, and up until 2004, neither did Colgate (leading to this ironic-sounding headline)
Re: The End of Ivy Hockey Competitiveness?
Posted by: Trotsky (---.dc.dc.cox.net)
Date: November 19, 2013 11:33AM
Great now the thread has both "manifesto" and "ammonium nitrate" in it. Hello, NSA...
> Remove the ban on post-season football. It's unnecessary in the age of the Championship Subdivision.
I'm sure this has come up before, but would this have ever mattered? Has there ever been an Ivy that would make the FCS playoffs? Or are there conference auto bids?
Edit: yes, I have learned to Google. There are currently 11 conferences with automatic bids. It would be fun to run an Ivy out there to see how far they would get. (Hint: they would get smoked.)
> Remove the ban on post-season football. It's unnecessary in the age of the Championship Subdivision.
I'm sure this has come up before, but would this have ever mattered? Has there ever been an Ivy that would make the FCS playoffs? Or are there conference auto bids?
Edit: yes, I have learned to Google. There are currently 11 conferences with automatic bids. It would be fun to run an Ivy out there to see how far they would get. (Hint: they would get smoked.)
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/19/2013 11:37AM by Trotsky.
Re: The End of Ivy Hockey Competitiveness?
Posted by: css228 (---.cit.cornell.edu)
Date: November 19, 2013 11:34AM
You say that, but the pay to play model is increasingly pricing out middle class families. Not advocating scholarships for the wealthy or anything, just saying that when it comes to hockey financial aid may not be as helpful as we think.Kyle Rose
There are surely more than enough good hockey players from poor and middle class families.
Re: The End of Ivy Hockey Competitiveness?
Posted by: ursusminor (---.washdc.east.verizon.net)
Date: November 19, 2013 11:37AM
Trotsky,
Do you know what the average place (or average winning percentage) of the Ivies vs. the non-Ivies has been each year since the ECAC became a 12-team league? My gut feeling is that originally the non-Ivies did better with only Cornell and Harvard usually finishing near the top. More recently the Ivies have finished better.
This year is by no means over although Dartmouth and Princeton do seem pretty bad.
Do you know what the average place (or average winning percentage) of the Ivies vs. the non-Ivies has been each year since the ECAC became a 12-team league? My gut feeling is that originally the non-Ivies did better with only Cornell and Harvard usually finishing near the top. More recently the Ivies have finished better.
This year is by no means over although Dartmouth and Princeton do seem pretty bad.
Re: The End of Ivy Hockey Competitiveness?
Posted by: Trotsky (---.dc.dc.cox.net)
Date: November 19, 2013 12:07PM
I can work it out tonight.ursusminor
Trotsky,
Do you know what the average place (or average winning percentage) of the Ivies vs. the non-Ivies has been each year since the ECAC became a 12-team league? My gut feeling is that originally the non-Ivies did better with only Cornell and Harvard usually finishing near the top. More recently the Ivies have finished better.
This year is by no means over although Dartmouth and Princeton do seem pretty bad.
Re: The End of Ivy Hockey Competitiveness?
Posted by: Josh '99 (---.nyc.res.rr.com)
Date: November 19, 2013 12:31PM
It's a small sample size fluke. Give it time.
But, also raise the games limit and let them start at the same time as everyone else, because why not?
But, also raise the games limit and let them start at the same time as everyone else, because why not?
Re: The End of Ivy Hockey Competitiveness?
Posted by: Weder (---.austin.hp.com)
Date: November 19, 2013 12:37PM
Trotsky
Great now the thread has both "manifesto" and "ammonium nitrate" in it. Hello, NSA...
> Remove the ban on post-season football. It's unnecessary in the age of the Championship Subdivision.
I'm sure this has come up before, but would this have ever mattered? Has there ever been an Ivy that would make the FCS playoffs? Or are there conference auto bids?
Edit: yes, I have learned to Google. There are currently 11 conferences with automatic bids. It would be fun to run an Ivy out there to see how far they would get. (Hint: they would get smoked.)
Hm, I think that in many years the Ivy champion would have a decent shot at winning a first-round game. Patriot League teams win first-round games somewhat frequently, so that's a decent measuring stick.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/19/2013 12:38PM by Weder.
Re: The End of Ivy Hockey Competitiveness?
Posted by: billhoward (---.hsd1.nj.comcast.net)
Date: November 19, 2013 12:45PM
It is unusual that football alone among the Ivy sports is not allowed into postseason tournaments.
Re: The End of Ivy Hockey Competitiveness?
Posted by: TimV (---.amc.edu)
Date: November 19, 2013 12:59PM
billhoward
It is unusual that football alone among the Ivy sports is not allowed into postseason tournaments.
Unusual that football is kept out of postseason, no. Always has been since the formalization of the league.
Irrational, unjustifiable, and shizophrenic given that other sports are not- yup.
But this is Cornell- who cares about football? It's just something to occupy the lacrosse stadium in the fall semester.
___________________________
"Yo Paulie - I don't see no crowd gathering 'round you neither."
"Yo Paulie - I don't see no crowd gathering 'round you neither."
Re: The End of Ivy Hockey Competitiveness?
Posted by: RichH (134.223.116.---)
Date: November 19, 2013 01:41PM
Trotsky
I'm sure this has come up before, but would this have ever mattered? Has there ever been an Ivy that would make the FCS playoffs? Or are there conference auto bids?
Don't be so sure. Recently, in the national poll...
In 2003, Penn finished a 10-0 season ranked #12 in the national polls.
In 2004, Harvard finished a 10-0 season ranked #14
Even this decade:
2010: [www.pennathletics.com]
2011: [www.gocrimson.com]
With the tournament field having 20 teams (expanding to 24 this season), I have no doubts that the top teams of the Ivies can complete at that level and win tournament games. In 2003, Cornell fell to Colgate, 27-24. Colgate went on to lose to Delaware in the National Championship game. Lehigh won a tournament game in both 2010 and 2011.
Re: The End of Ivy Hockey Competitiveness?
Posted by: Roy 82 (128.18.14.---)
Date: November 19, 2013 09:56PM
RichH
Trotsky
I'm sure this has come up before, but would this have ever mattered? Has there ever been an Ivy that would make the FCS playoffs? Or are there conference auto bids?
Don't be so sure. Recently, in the national poll...
In 2003, Penn finished a 10-0 season ranked #12 in the national polls.
In 2004, Harvard finished a 10-0 season ranked #14
Even this decade:
2010: [www.pennathletics.com]
2011: [www.gocrimson.com]
With the tournament field having 20 teams (expanding to 24 this season), I have no doubts that the top teams of the Ivies can complete at that level and win tournament games. In 2003, Cornell fell to Colgate, 27-24. Colgate went on to lose to Delaware in the National Championship game. Lehigh won a tournament game in both 2010 and 2011.
Yes, but you are talking about being nationally competitive in a second teir league. Might as well hand out participation trophies.
Re: The End of Ivy Hockey Competitiveness?
Posted by: Trotsky (---.hsd1.md.comcast.net)
Date: November 19, 2013 11:35PM
ursusminor
Trotsky,
Do you know what the average place (or average winning percentage) of the Ivies vs. the non-Ivies has been each year since the ECAC became a 12-team league? My gut feeling is that originally the non-Ivies did better with only Cornell and Harvard usually finishing near the top. More recently the Ivies have finished better.
This year is by no means over although Dartmouth and Princeton do seem pretty bad.
The linear trendline for the composite Ivy winning percentage during the 27 years of round robin ECAC play has ascended from 45% to 52%; a second-order polynomial line also rises overall but has descended slightly after peaking in 2010. The best years for Ivy performance since 1987 were all within the period 2003-2010: 2003 (59%), 2009 (56%), 2002 (55%), and 2010 (54%). The worst were within the period 1989-1999: 1996 (39%), 1997 and 1989 (42%) and 1999 (44%).
Team 1987 1988 1989 1990 1991 1992 1993 1994 1995 1996 1997 1998 1999 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012 2013 Arm 12 8 13 11 8 Brn 18 5 2 19 20 24 28 27 28 16 10 24 15 10 8 22 24 28 20 11 16 15 10 16 18 14 20 Clk 26 23 28 27 32 31 28 30 31 34 34 34 36 21 32 27 21 18 16 20 30 33 20 11 19 22 19 Col 31 27 31 37 22 22 18 22 25 30 23 21 26 30 17 22 21 30 31 30 17 21 17 26 11 23 15 Cor 16 30 26 27 31 24 11 19 20 32 30 19 21 21 25 36 39 29 38 29 24 25 29 31 24 30 19 Drt 5 17 15 12 3 8 18 9 16 14 12 17 14 19 24 23 26 27 28 30 27 15 24 17 26 19 22 Hvd 40 36 40 25 28 32 35 36 25 19 20 21 18 20 26 23 35 22 32 27 22 27 24 17 15 25 14 Prn 15 23 9 23 15 19 15 17 21 13 25 20 27 20 22 22 6 12 14 17 22 28 28 18 24 16 20 Qpc 17 24 22 21 22 19 23 37 RPI 18 18 18 28 28 16 31 28 23 16 27 26 28 23 24 23 11 27 13 22 17 15 13 23 24 17 27 SLU 30 36 36 26 31 31 26 16 20 33 15 18 33 33 29 20 17 17 19 25 33 16 26 23 13 21 22 Uni 5 6 23 16 11 25 11 4 13 18 19 22 19 17 22 15 25 20 28 36 32 24 Ver 24 29 26 16 26 23 21 26 24 37 29 18 16 8 18 7 16 15 29 Yal 29 12 20 13 20 29 27 11 15 9 14 35 26 16 21 20 26 20 7 14 17 22 32 32 35 22 25 Total 264 264 264 264 264 264 264 264 264 264 264 264 264 234 264 264 264 264 264 264 264 264 264 264 264 264 264 Ivy 123 123 112 119 117 136 134 119 125 103 111 136 121 106 126 146 156 138 139 128 128 132 147 131 142 126 120
tl;dr: The Ivies are getting better.
Edited 8 time(s). Last edit at 11/19/2013 11:56PM by Trotsky.
Re: The End of Ivy Hockey Competitiveness?
Posted by: RichH (---.hsd1.ct.comcast.net)
Date: November 20, 2013 12:02AM
Roy 82
RichH
Trotsky
I'm sure this has come up before, but would this have ever mattered? Has there ever been an Ivy that would make the FCS playoffs? Or are there conference auto bids?
Don't be so sure. Recently, in the national poll...
In 2003, Penn finished a 10-0 season ranked #12 in the national polls.
In 2004, Harvard finished a 10-0 season ranked #14
Even this decade:
2010: [www.pennathletics.com]
2011: [www.gocrimson.com]
With the tournament field having 20 teams (expanding to 24 this season), I have no doubts that the top teams of the Ivies can complete at that level and win tournament games. In 2003, Cornell fell to Colgate, 27-24. Colgate went on to lose to Delaware in the National Championship game. Lehigh won a tournament game in both 2010 and 2011.
Yes, but you are talking about being nationally competitive in a second teir league. Might as well hand out participation trophies.
Dude, really? -1
Re: The End of Ivy Hockey Competitiveness?
Posted by: Jeff Hopkins '82 (---.airproducts.com)
Date: November 20, 2013 07:35AM
RichH
Roy 82
RichH
Trotsky
I'm sure this has come up before, but would this have ever mattered? Has there ever been an Ivy that would make the FCS playoffs? Or are there conference auto bids?
Don't be so sure. Recently, in the national poll...
In 2003, Penn finished a 10-0 season ranked #12 in the national polls.
In 2004, Harvard finished a 10-0 season ranked #14
Even this decade:
2010: [www.pennathletics.com]
2011: [www.gocrimson.com]
With the tournament field having 20 teams (expanding to 24 this season), I have no doubts that the top teams of the Ivies can complete at that level and win tournament games. In 2003, Cornell fell to Colgate, 27-24. Colgate went on to lose to Delaware in the National Championship game. Lehigh won a tournament game in both 2010 and 2011.
Yes, but you are talking about being nationally competitive in a second teir league. Might as well hand out participation trophies.
Dude, really? -1
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