Ivy League hockey recruiting

I was just reviewing the Frozen Four thread (good stuff - who knew RIT had a campus in Dubrovnik?) ... and I put a reply there, but I thought this issue was too "important" to overlook, so I created a new thread.

Someone in that thread made reference to Harvard-Yale-Princeton being able to give de facto athletic scholarships, and seemed to be referring to my article (based on the similar language used).

[www.collegehockeynews.com]

However, that poster seemed to miss the key sentence of the article, which directly addresses Cornell fans' concerns. And since those concerns were perpetuated throughout the Frozen Four thread, I thought I needed to point out that you shouldn't worry.

Furthermore, even though Cornell, Brown and Dartmouth do not have the endowments to do that, they successfully lobbied the Ivy League to allow their athletic programs to match whatever package Princeton, Harvard and Yale are offering.

Hope this helps.

adamw

Furthermore, even though Cornell, Brown and Dartmouth do not have the endowments to do that, they successfully lobbied the Ivy League to allow their athletic programs to match whatever package Princeton, Harvard and Yale are offering.

But that's why Chris '03 said:

Chris '03
It's not a great position to be in for Cornell's recruiting approach to have to be "we want you to come here. Now go apply to HYP and when you get in, we'll get you a free ride here."

Our athletes need to be admitted to HYP before they'll get the upgraded financial aid packages (read: merit scholarships), at which point why wouldn't they just go to Yale (or theoretically H/P, if they don't really care about winning at hockey)?

Can Cornell match the H/Y/P packages "in general" or they can only match a specific package made to a player? Sounds like there's room for gamesmanship, e.g. if Harvard knows that a kid really wants to go to Cornell, just deny admission so there's no package to match.

I don't believe they need to be admitted, just offered. However, admittedly, I don't know all of the details.

Kyle Rose

adamw

Furthermore, even though Cornell, Brown and Dartmouth do not have the endowments to do that, they successfully lobbied the Ivy League to allow their athletic programs to match whatever package Princeton, Harvard and Yale are offering.

But that's why Chris '03 said:

Chris '03
It's not a great position to be in for Cornell's recruiting approach to have to be "we want you to come here. Now go apply to HYP and when you get in, we'll get you a free ride here."

Our athletes need to be admitted to HYP before they'll get the upgraded financial aid packages (read: merit scholarships), at which point why wouldn't they just go to Yale (or theoretically H/P, if they don't really care about winning at hockey)?

Because maybe the kid likes Ithaca better than New Haven. Or was more impressed by Schafer than Allain. Or maybe see's a better opportunity for playing time given the rosters at a given moment in time. Ot...

I think there's more to recruiting than just picking the most successful team that wants you and going there. Sure, Yale has a gew nice things going for them both inside and outside of hockey right now but that doesn't huarantee that a specific recruit would choose them over another school. Financials are much more likely to do that so the idea here is to remove that potential advantage/impediment.

Furthermore, even though Cornell, Brown and Dartmouth do not have the endowments to do that, they successfully lobbied the Ivy League to allow their athletic programs to match whatever package Princeton, Harvard and Yale are offering.

I need some clarification. I thought that financial aid was essentially "need based" and administered though Day Hall, not Bartels Hall. I was under the impression (perhaps naively) that the HYP match applied to all Cornell students. While I've attended far more athletic events than Glee Club concerts or poetry readings, I like to think that all students are treated equally when it comes to financial assistance. Shouldn't we compete as hard for a brilliant physics major as for a prospective All Ivy athlete?

As I recall, when I was an undergraduate, financial aid officers from the Ivy schools and a few others met to equalize aid packages, but that practice was discontinued because it violated antitrust laws, creating the imbalance that existed until the current policy.

Like I said, I don't claim to have all the details ... but I do know it was huge for hockey coaches, who all talk about it.

I was under the impression that - which the ability to match was for all students (athletes or not) - that it was only for athletics that the Ivy League's permission was needed. In the case of athletics, it was necessary to get Ivy League approval, since it's the Ivy League that doesn't allow the awarding of athletic scholarships. Even though what H-Y-P is doing is not actually an athletic scholarship, its effect on sports is obvious - and the Ivy League recognized the need for fairness for its other non-H-Y-P sports programs.

The Ivy League basically had to give its permission to say that Cornell could match a Harvard aid package without it being considered an athletic scholarship.

At least, that's my understanding.

George64
I need some clarification. I thought that financial aid was essentially "need based" and administered though Day Hall, not Bartels Hall. I was under the impression (perhaps naively) that the HYP match applied to all Cornell students. While I've attended far more athletic events than Glee Club concerts or poetry readings, I like to think that all students are treated equally when it comes to financial assistance. Shouldn't we compete as hard for a brilliant physics major as for a prospective All Ivy athlete?

I don't recall Professor Hull taking any trips to recruit the country's best high school historians.

I just had it clarified to me that, if HYP are actively recruiting the player, the other schools can match what the offer would be, based upon HYP's online calculator as a guide.

Matching the higher scholarships of wealthier Ivy League schools to ensure athletic competitiveness... that's about as close to giving athletic scholarships as I'd ever like Cornell to be. Or perhaps it's over the line.

I'm conflicted.

It's unfair to the rest of us, but it's more fair for athletic competitions against other Ivies. The Ivy League was created to enshrine a group of schools that did not sacrifice academic priorities to pursue athletic fairness. We would be uncompetitive together. Now, as a result of government pressure to spend endowments, the wealthier members have created an imbalance in our little group. Is it unprincipled to sacrifice academic priorities to remain competitive within our (not-that-) uncompetitive group?

I love Cornell hockey, but I'm starting to think that the answer may be no. I would not be pleased to learn that a squash player got a higher scholarship because Harvard offered them a nicer package.

BMac
Matching the higher scholarships of wealthier Ivy League schools to ensure athletic competitiveness... that's about as close to giving athletic scholarships as I'd ever like Cornell to be. Or perhaps it's over the line.

I'm conflicted.

It's unfair to the rest of us, but it's more fair for athletic competitions against other Ivies. The Ivy League was created to enshrine a group of schools that did not sacrifice academic priorities to pursue athletic fairness. We would be uncompetitive together. Now, as a result of government pressure to spend endowments, the wealthier members have created an imbalance in our little group. Is it unprincipled to sacrifice academic priorities to remain competitive within our (not-that-) uncompetitive group?

I love Cornell hockey, but I'm starting to think that the answer may be no. I would not be pleased to learn that a squash player got a higher scholarship because Harvard offered them a nicer package.

This discussion is centered around athletics. But do we know whether this affects non-athletes as well? The Ivy schools are now prohibited from sharing aid packages among themselves but that doesn't prevent Cornell from using the Harvard online calculator for any student to determine what kinds of financial aid packages they're up against. I suspect they do. If admissions routinely makes comparisons with other Ivy guarantees for the general student body then doing it for athletes becomes less of a concern.

The difference, of course, is that an athete has an advocate pressuring the admissions to match and offer while a non-athlete does not.

KeithK

BMac
Matching the higher scholarships of wealthier Ivy League schools to ensure athletic competitiveness... that's about as close to giving athletic scholarships as I'd ever like Cornell to be. Or perhaps it's over the line.

I'm conflicted.

It's unfair to the rest of us, but it's more fair for athletic competitions against other Ivies. The Ivy League was created to enshrine a group of schools that did not sacrifice academic priorities to pursue athletic fairness. We would be uncompetitive together. Now, as a result of government pressure to spend endowments, the wealthier members have created an imbalance in our little group. Is it unprincipled to sacrifice academic priorities to remain competitive within our (not-that-) uncompetitive group?

I love Cornell hockey, but I'm starting to think that the answer may be no. I would not be pleased to learn that a squash player got a higher scholarship because Harvard offered them a nicer package.

This discussion is centered around athletics. But do we know whether this affects non-athletes as well? The Ivy schools are now prohibited from sharing aid packages among themselves but that doesn't prevent Cornell from using the Harvard online calculator for any student to determine what kinds of financial aid packages they're up against. I suspect they do. If admissions routinely makes comparisons with other Ivy guarantees for the general student body then doing it for athletes becomes less of a concern.

The difference, of course, is that an athete has an advocate pressuring the admissions to match and offer while a non-athlete does not.

It also means that financial aid is not wholly need-based.

To go back to the allusion I made before, I believe that athletic recruiting runs counter to the Ivy League academics-first principles. If Cornell is going to recruit, it should recruit biologists, engineers, Hotelies, architects, etc. Not athletes.

Ben
It also means that financial aid is not wholly need-based.

Not necessarily. It just means we're using a different definition of need. That is, HYP's definition.

Snark aside, I don't think the need-based financial aid policy ever guaranteed that all students would get the same types of aid, just that all students would be admitted without consideration of need and would receive a package equal to their computed need. One kid could get a larger percentage of grants vs. loans. So we may not have been as "pure" as advertised. (Am I remembering this wrong?)

Ben
To go back to the allusion I made before, I believe that athletic recruiting runs counter to the Ivy League academics-first principles. If Cornell is going to recruit, it should recruit biologists, engineers, Hotelies, architects, etc. Not athletes.

I see your point and am sympathetic to it. Taking this position does imply that Cornell will not have D1 athletics though, since recruiting is a fact of life at this level. That might be an acceptable outcome to maintain our principles, but we shouldn
t kid ourselvees about the consequences.

I's pretty hard to actively recruit biologists, hotelies, architects,etc. since there isn't a comparable practical for high school students to directly demonstrate their suitability for these fields in the way there is for sports. Schools do certainly recruit top caliber students though.

KeithK

Ben
It also means that financial aid is not wholly need-based.

Not necessarily. It just means we're using a different definition of need. That is, HYP's definition.

Snark aside, I don't think the need-based financial aid policy ever guaranteed that all students would get the same types of aid, just that all students would be admitted without consideration of need and would receive a package equal to their computed need. One kid could get a larger percentage of grants vs. loans. So we may not have been as "pure" as advertised. (Am I remembering this wrong?)

Not really. The cutoff (GPA, SAT/ACT) is higher at HYP than it is here. Students who get admitted to one of HYP as well as Cornell will probably have higher measurable academic attributes than students who only get into Cornell. Because of this, Cornell will be offering financial aid packages that are effectively merit-based.

KeithK

Ben
To go back to the allusion I made before, I believe that athletic recruiting runs counter to the Ivy League academics-first principles. If Cornell is going to recruit, it should recruit biologists, engineers, Hotelies, architects, etc. Not athletes.

I see your point and am sympathetic to it. Taking this position does imply that Cornell will not have D1 athletics though, since recruiting is a fact of life at this level. That might be an acceptable outcome to maintain our principles, but we shouldn't kid ourselvees about the consequences.

I's pretty hard to actively recruit biologists, hotelies, architects,etc. since there isn't a comparable practical for high school students to directly demonstrate their suitability for these fields in the way there is for sports. Schools do certainly recruit top caliber students though.

As I've mentioned elsewhere on these boards, I would support Cornell ending varsity athletics altogether. In terms of recruiting students, I remember getting bucketloads of (form) letters from colleges after taking the PSAT, so there is some available information on high school students' academic performance. Form letters, though, are pretty different from a visit by a coach/professor.

Ben
Not really. The cutoff (GPA, SAT/ACT) is higher at HYP than it is here. Students who get admitted to one of HYP as well as Cornell will probably have higher measurable academic attributes than students who only get into Cornell. Because of this, Cornell will be offering financial aid packages that are effectively merit-based.

I was trying to say that there may already have been some bias in aid packages based on merit, just not on the size of the package. Anyway, I don't have a problem with giving merit based aid. Once you guarantee to provide financial need to all students I don't think it's a bad thing to give more aid to better candidates. I actually think it's a good thing. But YMMV.

Ben
As I've mentioned elsewhere on these boards, I would support Cornell ending varsity athletics altogether.

Yeah, I think I do remember you saying that about athletics. Probably wouldn't be a popular opinion in this forum but it's certainly principled.

KeithK

Ben
Not really. The cutoff (GPA, SAT/ACT) is higher at HYP than it is here. Students who get admitted to one of HYP as well as Cornell will probably have higher measurable academic attributes than students who only get into Cornell. Because of this, Cornell will be offering financial aid packages that are effectively merit-based.

I was trying to say that there may already have been some bias in aid packages based on merit, just not on the size of the package. Anyway, I don't have a problem with giving merit based aid. Once you guarantee to provide financial need to all students I don't think it's a bad thing to give more aid to better candidates. I actually think it's a good thing. But YMMV.

I agree with the principle, but it doesn't seem that we could currently afford to provide merit-based aid in addition to meeting demonstrated need.

George64


I need some clarification. I thought that financial aid was essentially "need based" and administered though Day Hall, not Bartels Hall. I was under the impression (perhaps naively) that the HYP match applied to all Cornell students.

According to this December, 2010 Cornell Chronicle piece, it does: [www.news.cornell.edu]

Lead paragraphs:

Cornell has announced it will match the need-based financial aid for admitted students who are also accepted to other Ivy League schools and will strive to match the need-based financial aid from Duke University, the Massachusetts Institute of Technology and Stanford University.

"We're explicitly saying if you have a better aid offer from another Ivy institution, bring it to us, and we'll give you more grant aid. It won't be loans," said Tom Keane, director of financial aid for scholarships and policy analysis.

Al DeFlorio

George64


I need some clarification. I thought that financial aid was essentially "need based" and administered though Day Hall, not Bartels Hall. I was under the impression (perhaps naively) that the HYP match applied to all Cornell students.

According to this December, 2010 Cornell Chronicle piece, it does: [www.news.cornell.edu]

Lead paragraphs:

Cornell has announced it will match the need-based financial aid for admitted students who are also accepted to other Ivy League schools and will strive to match the need-based financial aid from Duke University, the Massachusetts Institute of Technology and Stanford University.

"We're explicitly saying if you have a better aid offer from another Ivy institution, bring it to us, and we'll give you more grant aid. It won't be loans," said Tom Keane, director of financial aid for scholarships and policy analysis.

Cornell has a long history of negotiating aid packages with students. In 1971, after I told Cornell I was going to another school for graduate school because of a more generous aid package, I got a call from the department chair who said I should have told them, and they would have upped their offer. A similar thing happened with my son when he applied to Cornell as an undergraduate. In fact, when we toured the campus the guide said Cornell expects families to negotiate aid packages.

Swampy

Al DeFlorio

George64


I need some clarification. I thought that financial aid was essentially "need based" and administered though Day Hall, not Bartels Hall. I was under the impression (perhaps naively) that the HYP match applied to all Cornell students.

According to this December, 2010 Cornell Chronicle piece, it does: [www.news.cornell.edu]

Lead paragraphs:

Cornell has announced it will match the need-based financial aid for admitted students who are also accepted to other Ivy League schools and will strive to match the need-based financial aid from Duke University, the Massachusetts Institute of Technology and Stanford University.

"We're explicitly saying if you have a better aid offer from another Ivy institution, bring it to us, and we'll give you more grant aid. It won't be loans," said Tom Keane, director of financial aid for scholarships and policy analysis.

Cornell has a long history of negotiating aid packages with students. In 1971, after I told Cornell I was going to another school for graduate school because of a more generous aid package, I got a call from the department chair who said I should have told them, and they would have upped their offer. A similar thing happened with my son when he applied to Cornell as an undergraduate. In fact, when we toured the campus the guide said Cornell expects families to negotiate aid packages.

From an e-mail forwarded to me recently by my CAAAN chair:

Dear CAAAN Chairs:
At this time of year, the university receives a number of questions about financial aid. We don’t expect our ambassadors to be experts on financial aid, but here is some basic information that should help you in your work with admitted students.
The Cornell University Office of Financial Aid and Student Employment has an official appeal process, which has been outlined below:
· There is an appeal application form to be completed by the parent or student, in order to make the process easier and more efficient. The form is available for download on the Financial Aid and Student Employment website (www.finaid.cornell.edu).
· Families should describe in detail any circumstances that have a bearing on the appeal, such as changes in income or unusual expenses, providing necessary supporting documentation with specific dollar amounts where applicable.
· A copy of the family’s 2012 Federal Income Tax Return(s) should be on file in the Office of Financial Aid and Student Employment. This information is typically required for appeal evaluation.
· If a student has financial aid award letters from peer institutions, the student may forward copies of those letters to the office for award matching consideration. The award matching initiative is outlined on the Financial Aid and Student Employment website (www.finaid.cornell.edu).
Please stay tuned for more important updates. Thank you for all you do for Cornell!
Cheers,
Kyle


Kyle Downey
Associate Director/Coordinator of Alumni Volunteer Programs
Undergraduate Admissions Office
Cornell University

(Emphasis added.)

I wondered about the general griping about Harvard-Yale-Princeton's ability to offer better packages to athletes, and whether it's true. Thanks for reposting some of the most important conclusions, Adam.

The Ivies are among the wealthiest universities but some such as HYP are wealthier. Consider not just total endowment but how many students you need to spread it across. Harvard has twice the endowment as Princeton but Princeton has twice the money per student: $2.2 million. That's 10 times what Cornell has per student. If Princeton's endowment returns 4%, that throws off $90,000 per student.

Annual survey of the National Association of College and University Business Officers and the Commonfund Institute via [www.cbsnews.com] (adding calculations for the Ivies and Stanford).

School	Endowment $B	 Students 	$/student
Harvard	        $30.4	 27,392 	$1,109,813
Yale	        $19.3	 11,593 	$1,664,798
Texas (system)	$18.2		
Stanford	$17.0	 15,870 	$1,071,204
Princeton	$16.9	 7,567 	        $2,233,382
MIT	        $10.1		
Michigan	$7.6		
Columbia	$6.5	 27,606 	$235,456
Texas A&M sys	$7.6		
Northwestern	$7.1		
Penn	        $6.7	 21,239 	$315,457
Chicago	        $6.5		
Notre Dame	$6.3		
Cal	        $5.9		
Duke	        $5.5		
Emory	        $5.4		
Washington U	$5.2		
Cornell	        $4.9	 20,939 	$234,013
Virginia	$4.7		
Rice	        $4.4

The Ivies used to collaborate to make sure no student's choice of an Ivy school was influenced by a better or worse aid package. The courts held that's a polite way of saying collusion, it's illegal, and cut that out. But as Adam notes, among student-athlete candidates, the schools do have the chance to match another Ivy's offer. And it appears the offer-matching extends beyond just athletes and to a few elite schools outside the Ives such as MIT. What the Ivies no longer do is proactively set aid levels in advance for all students who apply to multiple Ivies.

In a lot of sports, at schools where there are athletic scholarships, it doesn't cover the whole team. For D1 hockey it's 18 and for lacrosse it's 12.6 (http://www.berecruited.com/resources/recruiting-assistance-from-qput-me-in-coachq/ncaa-scholarship-allotment). So a scholarship school in hockey or lax can offer 3-5 scholarships a year to enterting freshmen.

Scholarships can be split. The New York Times wrote about the myth of all those full ride scholarships and found a lot of minor sports athletes were struggling to get by, parents would beg for a one-eighth scholarship just so they could say their son or daughter got an athletic scholarship, and there can be sniping by players and parents who see a one-quarter scholarship player having a better year than a half-scholarhsip player.

The Ivies with better endowments (than non Ivies) can offer better aid packages and if every student gets a good aid package, then that helps the students who come to play sports.

At one point, a generation ago when Kodak was a hot tech company, the University of Rochester held a huge stake in Kodak and was considered the or one of the wealthiest colleges in America relative to how many students. Not so any more.

Swampy

Al DeFlorio

George64


I need some clarification. I thought that financial aid was essentially "need based" and administered though Day Hall, not Bartels Hall. I was under the impression (perhaps naively) that the HYP match applied to all Cornell students.

According to this December, 2010 Cornell Chronicle piece, it does: [www.news.cornell.edu]

Lead paragraphs:

Cornell has announced it will match the need-based financial aid for admitted students who are also accepted to other Ivy League schools and will strive to match the need-based financial aid from Duke University, the Massachusetts Institute of Technology and Stanford University.

"We're explicitly saying if you have a better aid offer from another Ivy institution, bring it to us, and we'll give you more grant aid. It won't be loans," said Tom Keane, director of financial aid for scholarships and policy analysis.

Cornell has a long history of negotiating aid packages with students. In 1971, after I told Cornell I was going to another school for graduate school because of a more generous aid package, I got a call from the department chair who said I should have told them, and they would have upped their offer. A similar thing happened with my son when he applied to Cornell as an undergraduate. In fact, when we toured the campus the guide said Cornell expects families to negotiate aid packages.

This. Cornell's policy for matching need-based aid offers from other Ivy schools is why I'm sitting here right now posting on eLynah instead of ePalestra.

Josh '99
This. Cornell's policy for matching need-based aid offers from other Ivy schools is why I'm sitting here right now posting on eLynah instead of ePalestra.

Not a lot of hockey talk on ePalestra.

Trotsky

Josh '99
This. Cornell's policy for matching need-based aid offers from other Ivy schools is why I'm sitting here right now posting on eLynah instead of ePalestra.

Not a lot of hockey talk on ePalestra.

Yeah, the really scary thing is that I might have become a basketball fan.

Trotsky

Josh '99
This. Cornell's policy for matching need-based aid offers from other Ivy schools is why I'm sitting here right now posting on eLynah instead of ePalestra.

Not a lot of hockey talk on ePalestra.

Still amazing that Penn's Class of 1923 builds a nice rink on campus circa 1970 and a 6, 8 years later, Penn disbands hockey. Then a year later Penn goes to the final four in hoops and hockey is irrevocably forgotten. I still wonder with the growth of youth hockey across the US, if Penn might someday get back in.

billhoward
Still amazing that PrincetonPenn's Class of 1923 builds a nice rink on campus circa 1970 and a 6, 8 years later, Penn disbands hockey. Then a year later Penn goes to the final four in hoops and hockey is irrevocably forgotten. I still wonder with the growth of youth hockey across the US, if Penn might someday get back in.

Penn dropped hockey after the 1977-78 season, prompting Geoff Roeszler '81 (father of Tyler '11) to transfer to Cornell. With PSU soon to play D1 hockey, I've also wondered if Penn will give it another shot.

Cornell Daily Sun 7/8/2012
In an abrupt reversal after years of expanding financial aid, Cornell announced Tuesday that, beginning Fall 2013, it will no longer provide loan-free aid packages to all students whose parents make under $75,000 a year. Cornell had eliminated loans for students whose families made under $75,000 a year, replacing them with grants and work-study options. No more. Beginning Fall 2013, only freshmen whose families earn less than $60,000 a year will qualify for loan-free aid.

[cornellsun.com]

This is what bothers me. Why should an engineering student who can't get a loan-free aid package get passed over by an athlete who gets a full ride from Princeton?

Also keep in mind there are a number of students on the team that I am sure would not qualify for any financial aid.

As long as the athletes don't get special treatment in terms of financial aid packages vs. non-athletes, I am fine with it.

For the "elite" hockey players that are legit pro prospects, I would imagine that they would choose a school based on which one will help them the most in their hockey development, be it HYP, Cornell, or a non-Ivy.

For the player who recognizes that the collegiate level is probably as high as they will realistically go, fit with school / academic interests will be more significant I would imagine.

BMac

Cornell Daily Sun 7/8/2012
In an abrupt reversal after years of expanding financial aid, Cornell announced Tuesday that, beginning Fall 2013, it will no longer provide loan-free aid packages to all students whose parents make under $75,000 a year. Cornell had eliminated loans for students whose families made under $75,000 a year, replacing them with grants and work-study options. No more. Beginning Fall 2013, only freshmen whose families earn less than $60,000 a year will qualify for loan-free aid.

[cornellsun.com]

This is what bothers me. Why should an engineering student who can't get a loan-free aid package get passed over by an athlete who gets a full ride from Princeton?

And of course, somewhere along the way an athlete gets special consideration from an Ivy financial aid officer. ("Adding someone from Moose Jaw will make the class more diverse."

College athletics are corrupt, but when compared to the factory schools our corruption is so minor that the Ivies look squeaky clean.