Harvard 6 Cornell 1 ECAC post-game & site critique

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In a nutshell, this was the game: The Cornell cavalry arrives too late to rein in a Harvard attacker who grabs the puck at the blue line and swoops in on Andy Iles. Wash, rinse and repeat. Here Alex Killorn making it 5-1 late in the third period.

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About to be Harvard 1, Cornell 0: Harvard freshman defenseman Patrick McNally gets a step on the Cornell defense (above) ... and from a poor angle gets the puck past Iles (below and below).

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Harvard's final goal, by Marshall Everson (21). Iles perhaps could have stopped a couple of the early goals (from my blue line viewpoint, halfway up the rink). Not ones like this.


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Some of us tried to recall the last time Cornell came back from a one-goal,two-goal, uh-oh three-goal deficit. By the third period I think we were wondering if we could avoid a shutout and Joel Lowry did just that with 1:06 remaining.


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When you're the ECAC site selection committee and lie on your back at center ice looking skyward while a showgirl pops grapes in your mouth, the arched blue ceiling makes Boardwalk Hall seem like an exciting venue. 3,462 fans (total, both games Friday, announced attendance; capacity is 10,500) straggled in. This was late in the first period. NJ high school wrestling drew twice that two weeks earlier.


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The Big Red band showed up, of course.


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Elements of a Harvard band showed up. Their T-shirts read (on 2 lines)
CRIM
SON ... though ...
CRIM
PARENT ... would have been more accurate.


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In the same way that Cornell avoided a shutout (barely), the ECAC avoided a TV shutout (barely) when RPI TV provided a pretty decent webcast.


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Real band, real fans, above and below. Without Cornell in the late game Saturday, the Union-Harvard title match would safely fit in Hobey Baker Rink.

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Proof that Harvard fans did attend the game.


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The Atlantic City ECAC hockey champions banner looks as if there's room for a 10-year-plus run. Maybe it's just a warped sense of humor. This is year 2 of a 3-year contract. Will a two-thirds empty arena Friday, probably worse Saturday, get both sides to think again about abandoning year 3?


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Cornell red plus St. Patrick's green equals a Christmasy look.


It's disappointing to see Cornell lose badly but not heartbreaking the way it is to cough up a lead and then lose late or in OT, as Harvard did at our hands in the ECACs a decade ago. This was such a crushing loss it's hard to say Brian Ferlin and Rob Pannell combined would have made a difference. We could not cope with Harvard bottling up our breakout and repeatedly intercepting the puck before we got to center ice. I was rooting for a Harvard victory over Yale last weekend thinking they'd be beatable and it's always sweeter to take down Harvard than Colgate or Yale. It appears Cornell needs a consolation tie or win to make the NCAAs, else we're out no matter who else wins or loses. Let's hope Colgate is more accommodating Saturday than the Crimson.

[edit add:] I modified the end of the subject field as the thread shifted to a discussion of the merits and demerits of Lake Placid, Albany, Atlantic City, and the attendance at the sites.

Great post, not much else to say. This was by far the worst loss of the season in the season's biggest game. Win and we're in, but I can't say I'm too confident about it.

Great photos Bill, as always. Too bad you didn't get a photo of the scoreboard early in the second period, when it showed us with 5 shots on goal and Harvard with 4 goals. That's not a winning combination!

BearLover
Great post, not much else to say. This was by far the worst loss of the season in the season's biggest game. Win and we're in, but I can't say I'm too confident about it.

Terrific post. Thank you.
Terrible showing by Cornell. My wife wondered whether the whole team were sick with the flu, given how lackluster they played in each phase of the game.
Re Saturday's game, we are about to learn a lot about this team's character.

Excellent photos, Bill. I particularly like the first one.

BearLover
Great post, not much else to say. This was by far the worst loss of the season in the season's biggest game. Win and we're in, but I can't say I'm too confident about it.

I can honestly say that this is the first time that I do not really care if they make it or not. It's clearly wrong to feel that way and I know the team has achieved more, much more than could have been expected at the start of the season, but still....
That RPI loss and now this Harvard loss really makes me just want the season to be over and move on to a clean slate next year.

dbilmes
when it showed us with 5 shots on goal and Harvard with 4 goals. That's not a winning combination!

I am reminded of the Wayne Gretzky quote, "You miss 100% of the shots you don't take." Too much dicking around with the puck looking for the perfect shot; not enough throwing it on net and working for good things on rebounds.

Agreed. This team didn't show up for the biggest game of the year. We'll learn a lot about their character tonight, against a team with absolutely nothing to play for other than spoiler.

Didn't discourage me from heading down today, just have to get a bit of an earlier start. Hope there's still a good sized crowd like last night.

trainbow

BearLover
Great post, not much else to say. This was by far the worst loss of the season in the season's biggest game. Win and we're in, but I can't say I'm too confident about it.

Terrific post. Thank you. Terrible showing by Cornell. My wife wondered whether the whole team were sick with the flu, given how lackluster they played in each phase of the game. Re Saturday's game, we are about to learn a lot about this team's character.

We'll learn about Cornell's character. Also about the randomness of sporting event outcomes. No team wins 100% of its games (except 1970) and sometimes you can have your worst game at a bad moment. At this point, an attainable ending to the Cornell hockey season would be to beat Colgate, get an NCAA seeding within driving distance (Bridgeport never looked so good, games are Fri-Sat; Worcester is Sat-Sun), and emerge with a victory.

Part of me wishes for victories today by Cornell and Harvard so three ECAC teams make the NCAAs. It's a sign of my age and distaste for the aura (stench?) of big time college sports that I'd like to see three academically stellar schools in the NCAAs. I'd love to see Union make the Frozen Four. Root for academically inclined schools, root for New York State schools, root for itty bitty D1 schools that frost the NCAA, the NCAA's thinking being that only mega-universities deserve to be D1 and it's so, somehow, unfair that a small school tries to focus its excellence on one or two sports only

Wasn't even Harvard's band. They were stuck in Albequerque so they hired a faculty band from SJU to play for them. Kind of reminds me of this moment from the 2010 World Cup.

css228
Wasn't even Harvard's band. They were stuck in Albequerque so they hired a faculty band from SJU to play for them. Kind of reminds me of this moment from the 2010 World Cup.

I wondered about that especially because the band played in tune. They also struck up military anthems. The Harvard Mercenary & Hessian Dismounted Marching Band. When Cornell needs musically gifted help on the road, it calls on alums.

Kyle Rose

dbilmes
when it showed us with 5 shots on goal and Harvard with 4 goals. That's not a winning combination!

I am reminded of the Wayne Gretzky quote, "You miss 100% of the shots you don't take." Too much dicking around with the puck looking for the perfect shot; not enough throwing it on net and working for good things on rebounds.

To be fair, every time we did just throw it on net, there were 3 Harvard guys in the way to block the shot. Harvard managed to clog the defensive zone and then get open rushes.

Dafatone

Kyle Rose

dbilmes
when it showed us with 5 shots on goal and Harvard with 4 goals. That's not a winning combination!

I am reminded of the Wayne Gretzky quote, "You miss 100% of the shots you don't take." Too much dicking around with the puck looking for the perfect shot; not enough throwing it on net and working for good things on rebounds.

To be fair, every time we did just throw it on net, there were 3 Harvard guys in the way to block the shot. Harvard managed to clog the defensive zone and then get open rushes.

Cornell attempted 26 shots in the first period. Harvard blocked 16 of them.

Dafatone

Kyle Rose

dbilmes
when it showed us with 5 shots on goal and Harvard with 4 goals. That's not a winning combination!

I am reminded of the Wayne Gretzky quote, "You miss 100% of the shots you don't take." Too much dicking around with the puck looking for the perfect shot; not enough throwing it on net and working for good things on rebounds.

To be fair, every time we did just throw it on net, there were 3 Harvard guys in the way to block the shot. Harvard managed to clog the defensive zone and then get open rushes.

Sure, but how many times did Esposito try to take it all the way into the Harvard end by himself and have it stripped and taken the other way after one too many attempted move? This was happening even toward the end of the game. You'd figure after a while of that not working the guys would try some other strategy.

billhoward
Without Cornell in the late game Saturday, the Union-Harvard title match would safely fit in Hobey Baker Rink.

Without Cornell, it's likely the title match would safely fit in the Hobey Baker Award.

Maybe Friday was all a bad dream?

[shop.cbssports.com]

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Thank you, CBS Sports. Jeff, you beat me to the post, but one picture is a thousand words, right? Monday, the tees will probably be on their way to Burundi joining those Patriots SB 2012 Champs tees.

billhoward
Thank you, CBS Sports. Jeff, you beat me to the post, but one picture is a thousand words, right? Monday, the tees will probably be on their way to Burundi joining those Patriots SB 2012 Champs tees.

Indeed, it is, thanks Bill. I was tempted to see what would happen if I ordered one.

jeff '84

billhoward
Thank you, CBS Sports. Jeff, you beat me to the post, but one picture is a thousand words, right? Monday, the tees will probably be on their way to Burundi joining those Patriots SB 2012 Champs tees.

Indeed, it is, thanks Bill. I was tempted to see what would happen if I ordered one.

Last time I was in Cape Cod you could still buy BC 2000 National Championship (hockey) hats at a store in Hyannis. That is the only such item that I have ever seen available for purchase.

jeff '84

billhoward
Thank you, CBS Sports. Jeff, you beat me to the post, but one picture is a thousand words, right? Monday, the tees will probably be on their way to Burundi joining those Patriots SB 2012 Champs tees.

Indeed, it is, thanks Bill. I was tempted to see what would happen if I ordered one.

You'd be rejected because your order was placed without first loading Adobe Flash 11.0.1 (11.0.0 was last week) and the Octahedron driver.

billhoward
Thank you, CBS Sports. Jeff, you beat me to the post, but one picture is a thousand words, right? Monday, the tees will probably be on their way to Burundi joining those Patriots SB 2012 Champs tees.

The best part may be the description:

Your Big Red have proven to be the toughest things on ice since wooly mammoths roamed the earth.

If we ordered enough of them, could we alter history?

Bill - please let me know if you have a higher-res version of the TV crew shot. I'd greatly appreciate it.

CCHA, Hockey East, and WCHA all drew 10,000-plus to its title games according to box score reports, ECAC was sub-5,000, and AHA was sub-2,500 even with the event in RIT's home town.

League	Finals	Capacity Pct.   Arena	                        Teams in Final
AHA	2,443	11,200	22%	Blue Cross Arena, Rochester	Air Force, RIT
ECAC	4,131	10,500	39%	Boardwalk Hall, Atlantic City	Union, Harvard
CCHA 	10,421	20,056	52%	Joe Louis Arena, Detroit   	W Michigan, Michigan
H East	13,079	17,565	74%	TD Bank Garden, Boston	        BC, Maine
WCHA	16,838	18,064	93%	Xcel Energy Center, St. Paul 	N Dakota, Denver

For the ECAC, was it the venue? The teams? The small-city size? CCHA, Hockey East, and WCHA are in real cities. IIRC the Albany finals were 5,000-plus but not 10,000-plus in a building that holds 17,500 for hockey.

billhoward
CCHA, Hockey East, and WCHA all drew 10,000-plus to its title games according to box score reports, ECAC was sub-5,000, and AHA was sub-2,500 even with the event in RIT's home town.

League	Finals	Capacity Pct.   Arena	                        Teams in Final
AHA	2,443	11,200	22%	Blue Cross Arena, Rochester	Air Force, RIT
ECAC	4,131	10,500	39%	Boardwalk Hall, Atlantic City	Union, Harvard
CCHA 	10,421	20,056	52%	Joe Louis Arena, Detroit   	W Michigan, Michigan
H East	13,079	17,565	74%	TD Bank Garden, Boston	        BC, Maine
WCHA	16,838	18,064	93%	Xcel Energy Center, St. Paul 	N Dakota, Denver

For the ECAC, was it the venue? The teams? The small-city size? CCHA, Hockey East, and WCHA are in real cities. IIRC the Albany finals were 5,000-plus but not 10,000-plus in a building that holds 17,500 for hockey.

Another point to remember: the AHA does not hold a consolation game, so I'd bet that most of the 2,443 in Rochester were actually inside the BCA for the final. To me, it didn't look (from the webcast) like there were any more than 1,500 in the building for the ECAC final.

I posted previous attendance figures on the forum last year, so I have them handy. I've also added the last three years in Lake Placid (capacity 7,700), which is as far back as collegehockeystats.net goes.

Atlantic City
2012: 4,131 (Union, Harvard, Cornell, Colgate)
2011: 4,126 (Yale, Cornell, Dartmouth, Colgate)
Albany
2010: 6,505 (Cornell, Union, Brown, St. Lawrence)
2009: 4,857 (Yale, Cornell, St. Lawrence, Princeton)
2008: 4,851 (Princeton, Harvard, Cornell, Colgate)
2007: 5,565 (Clarkson, Quinnipiac, St. Lawrence, Dartmouth)
2006: 7,093 (Harvard, Cornell, Dartmouth, Colgate)
2005: 8,637 (Cornell, Harvard, Colgate, Vermont)
2004: 6,489 (Harvard, Clarkson, Colgate, Dartmouth)
2003: 8,296 (Cornell, Harvard, Dartmouth, Brown)
Lake Placid
2002: 6,518 (Harvard, Cornell, RPI, Clarkson)
2001: 6,256 (St. Lawrence, Cornell, Harvard, Dartmouth)
2000: 6,790 (St. Lawrence, RPI, Colgate, Cornell)

Another thing: during the trophy presentation, neither the rink announcer nor Steve Hagwell made any mention of hoping to see people back in 2013.

billhoward
CCHA, Hockey East, and WCHA all drew 10,000-plus to its title games according to box score reports, ECAC was sub-5,000, and AHA was sub-2,500 even with the event in RIT's home town.

League	Finals	Capacity Pct.   Arena	                        Teams in Final
AHA	2,443	11,200	22%	Blue Cross Arena, Rochester	Air Force, RIT
ECAC	4,131	10,500	39%	Boardwalk Hall, Atlantic City	Union, Harvard
CCHA 	10,421	20,056	52%	Joe Louis Arena, Detroit   	W Michigan, Michigan
H East	13,079	17,565	74%	TD Bank Garden, Boston	        BC, Maine
WCHA	16,838	18,064	93%	Xcel Energy Center, St. Paul 	N Dakota, Denver

For the ECAC, was it the venue? The teams? The small-city size? CCHA, Hockey East, and WCHA are in real cities. IIRC the Albany finals were 5,000-plus but not 10,000-plus in a building that holds 17,500 for hockey.

I can't believe there wouldn't have been more at Albany. CU fans could easily drive up, closer for Colgate and Harvard's few, and certainly more Union and Capital District CU fans.

And since I left before Saturday's games, were there really more people there for the finals than on Friday? Or was that number counting everybody who went home after Friday?

kingpin248

billhoward
CCHA, Hockey East, and WCHA all drew 10,000-plus to its title games according to box score reports, ECAC was sub-5,000, and AHA was sub-2,500 even with the event in RIT's home town.

League	Finals	Capacity Pct.   Arena	                        Teams in Final
AHA	2,443	11,200	22%	Blue Cross Arena, Rochester	Air Force, RIT
ECAC	4,131	10,500	39%	Boardwalk Hall, Atlantic City	Union, Harvard
CCHA 	10,421	20,056	52%	Joe Louis Arena, Detroit   	W Michigan, Michigan
H East	13,079	17,565	74%	TD Bank Garden, Boston	        BC, Maine
WCHA	16,838	18,064	93%	Xcel Energy Center, St. Paul 	N Dakota, Denver

For the ECAC, was it the venue? The teams? The small-city size? CCHA, Hockey East, and WCHA are in real cities. IIRC the Albany finals were 5,000-plus but not 10,000-plus in a building that holds 17,500 for hockey.

Another point to remember: the AHA does not hold a consolation game, so I'd bet that most of the 2,443 in Rochester were actually inside the BCA for the final. To me, it didn't look (from the webcast) like there were any more than 1,500 in the building for the ECAC final.

I posted previous attendance figures on the forum last year, so I have them handy. I've also added the last three years in Lake Placid (capacity 7,700), which is as far back as collegehockeystats.net goes.

Atlantic City
2012: 4,131 (Union, Harvard, Cornell, Colgate)
2011: 4,126 (Yale, Cornell, Dartmouth, Colgate)
Albany
2010: 6,505 (Cornell, Union, Brown, St. Lawrence)
2009: 4,857 (Yale, Cornell, St. Lawrence, Princeton)
2008: 4,851 (Princeton, Harvard, Cornell, Colgate)
2007: 5,565 (Clarkson, Quinnipiac, St. Lawrence, Dartmouth)
2006: 7,093 (Harvard, Cornell, Dartmouth, Colgate)
2005: 8,637 (Cornell, Harvard, Colgate, Vermont)
2004: 6,489 (Harvard, Clarkson, Colgate, Dartmouth)
2003: 8,296 (Cornell, Harvard, Dartmouth, Brown)
Lake Placid
2002: 6,518 (Harvard, Cornell, RPI, Clarkson)
2001: 6,256 (St. Lawrence, Cornell, Harvard, Dartmouth)
2000: 6,790 (St. Lawrence, RPI, Colgate, Cornell)

Another thing: during the trophy presentation, neither the rink announcer nor Steve Hagwell made any mention of hoping to see people back in 2013.

Good!

Jim Hyla

billhoward
CCHA, Hockey East, and WCHA all drew 10,000-plus to its title games according to box score reports, ECAC was sub-5,000, and AHA was sub-2,500 even with the event in RIT's home town.

League	Finals	Capacity Pct.   Arena	                        Teams in Final
AHA	2,443	11,200	22%	Blue Cross Arena, Rochester	Air Force, RIT
ECAC	4,131	10,500	39%	Boardwalk Hall, Atlantic City	Union, Harvard
CCHA 	10,421	20,056	52%	Joe Louis Arena, Detroit   	W Michigan, Michigan
H East	13,079	17,565	74%	TD Bank Garden, Boston	        BC, Maine
WCHA	16,838	18,064	93%	Xcel Energy Center, St. Paul 	N Dakota, Denver

For the ECAC, was it the venue? The teams? The small-city size? CCHA, Hockey East, and WCHA are in real cities. IIRC the Albany finals were 5,000-plus but not 10,000-plus in a building that holds 17,500 for hockey.

I can't believe there wouldn't have been more at Albany. CU fans could easily drive up, closer for Colgate and Harvard's few, and certainly more Union and Capital District CU fans.

And since I left before Saturday's games, were there really more people there for the finals than on Friday? Or was that number counting everybody who went home after Friday?

I'd say there were definitely more Cornell fans there on Friday than Saturday, but there were definitely a good deal of fans there. Some different ones, admittedly. But there were by FAR more people for the Cornell-Colgate consolation game than the Union-Harvard final. Overall I would say there were more fans Friday than Saturday, by sight alone.

Jim Hyla

kingpin248

billhoward
CCHA, Hockey East, and WCHA all drew 10,000-plus to its title games according to box score reports, ECAC was sub-5,000, and AHA was sub-2,500 even with the event in RIT's home town.

League	Finals	Capacity Pct.   Arena	                        Teams in Final
AHA	2,443	11,200	22%	Blue Cross Arena, Rochester	Air Force, RIT
ECAC	4,131	10,500	39%	Boardwalk Hall, Atlantic City	Union, Harvard
CCHA 	10,421	20,056	52%	Joe Louis Arena, Detroit   	W Michigan, Michigan
H East	13,079	17,565	74%	TD Bank Garden, Boston	        BC, Maine
WCHA	16,838	18,064	93%	Xcel Energy Center, St. Paul 	N Dakota, Denver

For the ECAC, was it the venue? The teams? The small-city size? CCHA, Hockey East, and WCHA are in real cities. IIRC the Albany finals were 5,000-plus but not 10,000-plus in a building that holds 17,500 for hockey.

Another point to remember: the AHA does not hold a consolation game, so I'd bet that most of the 2,443 in Rochester were actually inside the BCA for the final. To me, it didn't look (from the webcast) like there were any more than 1,500 in the building for the ECAC final.

I posted previous attendance figures on the forum last year, so I have them handy. I've also added the last three years in Lake Placid (capacity 7,700), which is as far back as collegehockeystats.net goes.

Atlantic City
2012: 4,131 (Union, Harvard, Cornell, Colgate)
2011: 4,126 (Yale, Cornell, Dartmouth, Colgate)
Albany
2010: 6,505 (Cornell, Union, Brown, St. Lawrence)
2009: 4,857 (Yale, Cornell, St. Lawrence, Princeton)
2008: 4,851 (Princeton, Harvard, Cornell, Colgate)
2007: 5,565 (Clarkson, Quinnipiac, St. Lawrence, Dartmouth)
2006: 7,093 (Harvard, Cornell, Dartmouth, Colgate)
2005: 8,637 (Cornell, Harvard, Colgate, Vermont)
2004: 6,489 (Harvard, Clarkson, Colgate, Dartmouth)
2003: 8,296 (Cornell, Harvard, Dartmouth, Brown)
Lake Placid
2002: 6,518 (Harvard, Cornell, RPI, Clarkson)
2001: 6,256 (St. Lawrence, Cornell, Harvard, Dartmouth)
2000: 6,790 (St. Lawrence, RPI, Colgate, Cornell)

Another thing: during the trophy presentation, neither the rink announcer nor Steve Hagwell made any mention of hoping to see people back in 2013.

Good!

Bad as to the 2008 and 2009 attendance. Those poor showings are the genesis of the move.

kingpin248
Another point to remember: the AHA does not hold a consolation game, so I'd bet that most of the 2,443 in Rochester were actually inside the BCA for the final.

Another thing that hurt the AHA attendance was that the RIT women were playing for the NCAA DIII Championship at the exact same time at RIT as the AF - RIT game at the BCA. So I know that pulled from the attendance the AHA game.

MattS

kingpin248
Another point to remember: the AHA does not hold a consolation game, so I'd bet that most of the 2,443 in Rochester were actually inside the BCA for the final.

Another thing that hurt the AHA attendance was that the RIT women were playing for the NCAA DIII Championship at the exact same time at RIT as the AF - RIT game at the BCA. So I know that pulled from the attendance the AHA game.

Not to mention that Air Force, being halfway across the country, wasn't likely to have much of a showing there.

I stayed for the first 10 or 15 minutes of the second game. There were more Cornell fans there than Harvard fans (Union had a decent showing though). I also got told off by security for heckling the Harvard sieve.

kingpin248
Another thing: during the trophy presentation, neither the rink announcer nor Steve Hagwell made any mention of hoping to see people back in 2013.

There were also no flyers being distributed offering fans a chance to preorder tickets for next year's finals, as there were in 2011.

ECAC tournament attendance since 2000. The chart shows Saturday attendance for 3 years in Lake Placid, for 8 years in Albany, and 2 years in Atlantic City. All red bar means Cornell played in the title game; half red, Cornell played in the semis and consolation; gray, Cornell didn't make it to the semis.

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Thanks, Kingpin, for pulling together the attendance numbers back to 2000, and I hope I transcribed correctly.

The highest attendance was: Albany with Cornell and Harvard in the final (2003, 2005, 2006), followed by Albany with Cornell and Union in the final (2010).

The two years Cornell failed to make the semifinal/final round (2004, 2007), attendance fell 22% from the year before when the title game was Cornell-Harvard.

Stats for only the last 3 years in Lake Placid may not be enough to be significant. Cornell was there all 3 years and either St. Lawrence or Clarkson was there all 3 years. Attendance was pretty consistent, around 6,500 each year. The place holds ~ 8,000 so you could see how the ECAC worried about selling out (the arena, not the fans. That came with Atlantic City.)

Any suggestions why the 3-year dip in Albany 2007, 2008, 2009? (Average attendance, 5,100) That's probably what got the ECAC looking around, and when the title game in the final Albany year was Cornell-Union and attendance shot up by a third, maybe the ECAC already had boardwalk fever.

I think the best draw in the future would be Cornell, Harvard and Union or RPI as the final four, in Albany, with the title game Cornell-Union/RPI or Cornell-Harvard. But that seems obvious even without a chart.

So if you're the ECAC, what's your next step?

kingpin248
I posted previous attendance figures on the forum last year, so I have them handy. I've also added the last three years in Lake Placid (capacity 7,700), which is as far back as collegehockeystats.net goes.

Atlantic City
2012: 4,131 (Union, Harvard, Cornell, Colgate)
2011: 4,126 (Yale, Cornell, Dartmouth, Colgate)
Albany
2010: 6,505 (Cornell, Union, Brown, St. Lawrence)
2009: 4,857 (Yale, Cornell, St. Lawrence, Princeton)
2008: 4,851 (Princeton, Harvard, Cornell, Colgate)
2007: 5,565 (Clarkson, Quinnipiac, St. Lawrence, Dartmouth)
2006: 7,093 (Harvard, Cornell, Dartmouth, Colgate)
2005: 8,637 (Cornell, Harvard, Colgate, Vermont)
2004: 6,489 (Harvard, Clarkson, Colgate, Dartmouth)
2003: 8,296 (Cornell, Harvard, Dartmouth, Brown)
Lake Placid
2002: 6,518 (Harvard, Cornell, RPI, Clarkson)
2001: 6,256 (St. Lawrence, Cornell, Harvard, Dartmouth)
2000: 6,790 (St. Lawrence, RPI, Colgate, Cornell)

Another thing: during the trophy presentation, neither the rink announcer nor Steve Hagwell made any mention of hoping to see people back in 2013.

billhoward
The highest attendance was: Albany with Cornell and Harvard in the final (2003, 2005, 2006), followed by Albany with Cornell and Union in the final (2010).

In both the years when attendance broke 8,000, the Big Red were especially dominant in the regular season (39 points both times, if memory serves).

billhoward
Stats for only the last 3 years in Lake Placid may not be enough to be significant. Cornell was there all 3 years and either St. Lawrence or Clarkson was there all 3 years. Attendance was pretty consistent, around 6,500 each year. The place holds ~ 8,000 so you could see how the ECAC worried about selling out (the arena, not the fans. That came with Atlantic City.)

Agree on all. I did notice that a North Country team was present in each of those last LP years. In fact, either Clarkson or St. Lawrence made the final four at all ten tournaments in Placid - and the '99 final might have sold out the Olympic Center, as it was an all-North Country affair.

billhoward
Any suggestions why the 3-year dip in Albany 2007, 2008, 2009? (Average attendance, 5,100) That's probably what got the ECAC looking around, and when the title game in the final Albany year was Cornell-Union and attendance shot up by a third, maybe the ECAC already had boardwalk fever.

I would think so, given that the decision to go to Atlantic City was announced in September 2009.

adamw
Bill - please let me know if you have a higher-res version of the TV crew shot. I'd greatly appreciate it.

Uploaded. A couple other people asked about photos, too. I uploaded all or most all the Cornell section, band, and RPI TV photos to my photo site. Go to billhoward.phanfare.com/cornellsports

css228

MattS

kingpin248
Another point to remember: the AHA does not hold a consolation game, so I'd bet that most of the 2,443 in Rochester were actually inside the BCA for the final.

Another thing that hurt the AHA attendance was that the RIT women were playing for the NCAA DIII Championship at the exact same time at RIT as the AF - RIT game at the BCA. So I know that pulled from the attendance the AHA game.

Not to mention that Air Force, being halfway across the country, wasn't likely to have much of a showing there.

The fact that it was St. Patrick's Day may also have had something to do with it.

kingpin248

billhoward

billhoward
Any suggestions why the 3-year dip in Albany 2007, 2008, 2009? (Average attendance, 5,100) That's probably what got the ECAC looking around, and when the title game in the final Albany year was Cornell-Union and attendance shot up by a third, maybe the ECAC already had boardwalk fever.

I would think so, given that the decision to go to Atlantic City was announced in September 2009.

Many of us remember the boos at the mention of Atlantic City during the 2010 Albany ECACs. Some of us participated in those catcalls.

billhoward
I think the best draw in the future would be Cornell, Harvard and Union or RPI as the final four, in Albany, with the title game Cornell-Union/RPI or Cornell-Harvard. But that seems obvious even without a chart.

What the chart doesn't have is a Cornell-Clarkson tournament. Note that each year that we missed, Clarkson was there. I suspect when Casey gets that program back on track, and if the tournament gets back to a place that's within reasonable driving distance for them, they will be the second biggest draw.

Jim Hyla

billhoward
I think the best draw in the future would be Cornell, Harvard and Union or RPI as the final four, in Albany, with the title game Cornell-Union/RPI or Cornell-Harvard. But that seems obvious even without a chart.

What the chart doesn't have is a Cornell-Clarkson tournament. Note that each year that we missed, Clarkson was there. I suspect when Casey gets that program back on track, and if the tournament gets back to a place that's within reasonable driving distance for them, they will be the second biggest draw.

Indeed, my only quibble with Bill's post is that the biggest draw in Albany is indubitably the Clarkson, Cornell, RPI, and Union foursome, preferably with Cornell and Clarkson coming in as #1 and #2 so that fans have a bit more time to consider making the trip.

marty

kingpin248

billhoward

billhoward
Any suggestions why the 3-year dip in Albany 2007, 2008, 2009? (Average attendance, 5,100) That's probably what got the ECAC looking around, and when the title game in the final Albany year was Cornell-Union and attendance shot up by a third, maybe the ECAC already had boardwalk fever.

I would think so, given that the decision to go to Atlantic City was announced in September 2009.

Many of us remember the boos at the mention of Atlantic City during the 2010 Albany ECACs. Some of us participated in those catcalls.

There was booing for Atlantic City at the MSG game, too. It was glorious.

Scersk '97
Indeed, my only quibble with Bill's post is that the biggest draw in Albany is indubitably the Clarkson, Cornell, RPI, and Union foursome, preferably with Cornell and Clarkson coming in as #1 and #2 so that fans have a bit more time to consider making the trip.

The more I think about it, the more I come to the conclusion that what is really needed is more success at a national level so more casual fans give a crap. Seriously, the ECAC is rightly viewed as the also-ran of D1 hockey: last national championship in 1989, last title game appearance 1990, last frozen four appearance 2003. Trying to hunt for higher attendance by moving the tournament around is like rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic, when what is needed is a course change. I know lots of people with no Hockey East association who go to the HE tournament; by comparison, I barely know anyone lacking an ECAC association who even knows what the ECAC is, much less who would bother going to a tournament featuring teams that seem to be content competing in a walled garden.

Jim Hyla
And since I left before Saturday's games, were there really more people there for the finals than on Friday? Or was that number counting everybody who went home after Friday?

We'd have to know whether those are ticket sales or turnstile numbers.

Cornell and Union had OK showings; Colgate and Harvard had zippo. The building felt empty and there was no energy except for the last 5 minutes or so of the final. They have to move the tournament to a different city. It was an interesting experiment, but it failed.

Is Broome County (Binghamton) a possibility? Only 6500 seats, but that might actually work to the advantage of the tournament by generating a shortage.

The XL Center in Hartford is undergoing a $100M renovation, and they will be looking for events to show it off.

The DCU Center in Worcester has 12k seats (8k when they shut down the upper bowl).

And there always the War Memorial, site of the deceased, unlamented, but aptly named Syracuse Hockey Invitational Tournament. Again, tiny (600), but it would be full.

Kyle Rose
The more I think about it, the more I come to the conclusion that what is really needed is more success at a national level so more casual fans give a crap. Seriously, the ECAC is rightly viewed as the also-ran of D1 hockey: last national championship in 1989, last title game appearance 1990, last frozen four appearance 2003. Trying to hunt for higher attendance by moving the tournament around is like rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic, when what is needed is a course change. I know lots of people with no Hockey East association who go to the HE tournament; by comparison, I barely know anyone lacking an ECAC association who even knows what the ECAC is, much less who would bother going to a tournament featuring teams that seem to be content competing in a walled garden.

To my utter shock, I met more than one casual fan at the tournament - the one for whom I remember the details was a D-III college hockey fan who lives in Philadelphia, and figured he'd come see what all the fuss is about with D-I. He was impressed.

Not with Cornell, natch.

Kyle Rose
I know lots of people with no Hockey East association who go to the HE tournament

I wonder how much of that is the Boston area connection, where college hockey is prominent and lots of fans have six degrees of separation connections via having grown up with players, coaches, etc.

Boston does have the huge advantage that college hockey is advertised throughout the year, and the Beanpot gives local people a reason to go and get interested in the sport. It's the healthiest hockey atmosphere in the northeast, it's a genuine destination city, so it's ideal.

The only remotely (by a 1:20 ratio) comparable place we have for grassroots civic involvement is Albany. Given that Union and Cornell are poised for several more years of very good teams and that Casey may have finally pulled Clarkson's head out of its nether regions, there is at least the potential to build up a real tradition. The future of the league is definitely west. BU/BC suck all the air out of the eastern end of the league, and there is no strongly competitive force on the western border yet.

What would be so wrong with changing the whole tournament, so only the top 8 teams make it, there's 3 weekends of best of 3 series, and they're all at the home of the higher seed? You would be more likely to actually have the best teams make it further, and having a home team would probably increase attendance for almost all of the games.

I know it takes out the "Cinderella" but wouldn't having the 11-seed Brown somehow make it to the NCAA tourney 2 years ago have just embarrassed the league? Not that some of the teams that have been at the top of our league haven't done the same.

I don't see how that kind of drastic change would ever happen, so I think I agree with Kyle the biggest thing the ECAC could do is improve the product on the ice. As college hockey has more and more big schools and big money involved, however, that becomes less and less likely. Likely, we just have to live with the fact that we're in a third-rate league and I guess just be grateful that a benefit of the low attendance is we can decide last-minute on travel plans and still have pretty easy access to tickets. Because I don't see what we can do about it.

Trotsky

Kyle Rose
I know lots of people with no Hockey East association who go to the HE tournament

I wonder how much of that is the Boston area connection, where college hockey is prominent and lots of fans have six degrees of separation connections via having grown up with players, coaches, etc.

That doesn't seem to help Harvard or Northeastern. Casual fans go to see the nationally-competitive teams, not the crappy ones. I think you need to stop looking at this as a location problem.

Ronald '09
What would be so wrong with changing the whole tournament, so only the top 8 teams make it, there's 3 weekends of best of 3 series, and they're all at the home of the higher seed? You would be more likely to actually have the best teams make it further, and having a home team would probably increase attendance for almost all of the games.

I know it takes out the "Cinderella" but wouldn't having the 11-seed Brown somehow make it to the NCAA tourney 2 years ago have just embarrassed the league? Not that some of the teams that have been at the top of our league haven't done the same.

I don't see how that kind of drastic change would ever happen, so I think I agree with Kyle the biggest thing the ECAC could do is improve the product on the ice. As college hockey has more and more big schools and big money involved, however, that becomes less and less likely. Likely, we just have to live with the fact that we're in a third-rate league and I guess just be grateful that a benefit of the low attendance is we can decide last-minute on travel plans and still have pretty easy access to tickets. Because I don't see what we can do about it.

Totally in favor of the last 4 having no shot at it. If you're bad enough to be 9-12 you really don't deserve a shot at going to the national tourney.

css228
Totally in favor of the last 4 having no shot at it. If you're bad enough to be 9-12 you really don't deserve a shot at going to the national tourney.

s/4/8/ IMO: if you can't finish the RS in the top third of the league, you should stay home.

Kyle Rose

Scersk '97
Indeed, my only quibble with Bill's post is that the biggest draw in Albany is indubitably the Clarkson, Cornell, RPI, and Union foursome, preferably with Cornell and Clarkson coming in as #1 and #2 so that fans have a bit more time to consider making the trip.

The more I think about it, the more I come to the conclusion that what is really needed is more success at a national level so more casual fans give a crap. Seriously, the ECAC is rightly viewed as the also-ran of D1 hockey: last national championship in 1989, last title game appearance 1990, last frozen four appearance 2003. Trying to hunt for higher attendance by moving the tournament around is like rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic, when what is needed is a course change. I know lots of people with no Hockey East association who go to the HE tournament; by comparison, I barely know anyone lacking an ECAC association who even knows what the ECAC is, much less who would bother going to a tournament featuring teams that seem to be content competing in a walled garden.

I think that nails it, along with the fact that many of the ECAC schools are on the smaller side and just don't have as large a following as many of the schools in the other conferences. There seems to be a steady but precipitous decline since 2003, for example, when Albany was really rocking. The only exception was 2010 when we played Union, and there was some real juice in the building. The last two years in AC have been pathetic.

Ronald '09
I don't see how that kind of drastic change would ever happen, so I think I agree with Kyle the biggest thing the ECAC could do is improve the product on the ice. As college hockey has more and more big schools and big money involved, however, that becomes less and less likely.

Even if there were big changes to the tournament league success is still the only way to draw crowds and generate excitement both on campus and in the communities.

The big systemic challenges for the ECAC are:

(1) The schools are very hard to get the best athletes into.
(2) The schools are very expensive for the athletes' families.
(3) The administrations resist actively marketing athletics.
(4) The locations are relatively rural.

These challenges can all be addressed, but we should maintain a balance so that the ECAC actually continues to correctly prioritize sports as an incidental part of the academic mission.

(1) can be addressed with, ahem, creative admissions for athletes. To some extent that is already done.
(2) can be addressed by expanding the need qualification. A lot of improvements have already been made.
(3) is simply something the Ivies in particular need to get over. You can market sports without losing your soul.
(4) can only be addressed by expanding into bigger markets. Buffalo comes to mind. Perhaps some day expansion into Philly, Baltimore, DC, or points south? If there are programs on the design board at Syracuse, or Navy, or some ACC school, we should elbow to the front of the welcome line.

I love the ECAC and there have to be creative ways to save it. There are a lot of smart and savvy people in the community. Spread out the decision-making mechanisms of the league, leverage all that intelligence, and have a long-range plan.

Kyle Rose
I know lots of people with no Hockey East association who go to the HE tournament; by comparison, I barely know anyone lacking an ECAC association who even knows what the ECAC is, much less who would bother going to a tournament featuring teams that seem to be content competing in a walled garden.

For what it's worth (and I know one fan doesn't really prove anything), I saw a guy at the final with a UNH sweater.

Trotsky

Kyle Rose
I know lots of people with no Hockey East association who go to the HE tournament

I wonder how much of that is the Boston area connection, where college hockey is prominent and lots of fans have six degrees of separation connections via having grown up with players, coaches, etc.

Well, here's a crack at a crackpot theory. It's about institutional branding. Specifically, regional magnetism.

Since the explosion of the sports industry in the 1990s (probably at least helped along by the rise of ESPN and 24-hour sports coverage), more and more fans who have little or no attachment to academic institutions have become more and more invested in collegiate athletics. Who are the casual fans drawn to? Teams that have a name they can relate to...where they are from. State and civic pride are remarkably strong.

People from Boston are notoriously provincial. They'll root for anything with the name "Boston" in it. Boston College and Boston University get that support that Northeastern and Harvard don't for this reason. Now expand that to the question you suggest. Why is it that so many more people are attracted to Hockey East than the ECAC? Look at the school names.

In Hockey East, I count 4 states and 4 cities (I'll put UMass Lowell in the city category). The remaining two are Merrimack (named for the Merrimack Valley) and Northeastern.

In the ECAC, there is ONE member named after their state or town, and that's Princeton. When you have that aspect, very few casual fans outside the immediate area are going to even think about supporting those teams. All you're going to have are these little fiefdoms of Ithaca, Canton, Potsdam, Hamilton, Schenectady, etc. Cornell gets a little coverage from the Elmira media, but more locals are going to care about Elmira College's teams. If the University of Maine were instead called "Orono State" or "Walsh College," I'd be willing to bet they would not have as much widespread state support.

Look at the list of NCAA Champions. The last champion to not have a city or state in their name was Lake Superior State in 1994. Notre Dame was close a few years ago, but their name recognition is for a different reason altogether. How many times have we been in a western arena and had to answer "Where the hell is Cornell, anyway??"

If you get local casual fan support, you get media support, which leads to more fan support. Getting every single yahoo in every corner of your city/region/state following you, especially when they have no prior connection to your University, is the biggest difference between Hockey East and ECAC tournament attendance, IMO.

RichH
Well, here's a crack at a crackpot theory.

Occam's Razor tells me you are overthinking this. Performance is the much simpler explanation.

Going strictly on the number of teams (i.e., assuming there is as much parity as Coach Schafer claims), you would expect an ECAC Frozen Four appearance 4 out of every 5 years and a championship 1 out of every 5 years. Of course, the distribution won't be smooth: you'll occasionally get 2 or 3 years in a row with no appearances, and some years with 2 or 3 teams, with even rarer outliers toward the tails. Contrast this with reality: over the past 20 years there have been 3 appearances, for 0.75 appearances out of every 5 years, and 0 titles, for... (adds, multiplies, exponentiates) roughly 0 out of every 5 years. I really don't think you need to look any more deeply than this.

Solve the performance problem, and attendance will follow. Don't, and deal with the ECAC being a second-tier league. In that case, it's probably time to ditch the tournament weekend altogether and just play the games at the higher-seeded team's rink.

RichH

Trotsky

Kyle Rose
I know lots of people with no Hockey East association who go to the HE tournament

I wonder how much of that is the Boston area connection, where college hockey is prominent and lots of fans have six degrees of separation connections via having grown up with players, coaches, etc.

Well, here's a crack at a crackpot theory. It's about institutional branding. Specifically, regional magnetism.
...

So you're suggesting we change the name "Cornell" to "Central New York State." I like it.

Though alumni of Arts/Architecture/Engineering/Hotel may have a problem with it.

I would like to see a rotation among 3 spots: Albany, and a couple from: Providence/Harford/Bridgeport/Worcester. Thus each venue gets the tourney once every three years (helps to reduce the staleness factor) and the sites are still in the heart of the ECAC. The venues could use the off years to bid on hosting something that would likely bring in more money than the ECAC tourney: 1st round men's / women's basketball games, or a NC$$ hockey regional, or the circus.

Just my thoughts based on the complaints of others.

Kyle Rose
The more I think about it, the more I come to the conclusion that what is really needed is more success at a national level so more casual fans give a crap. Seriously, the ECAC is rightly viewed as the also-ran of D1 hockey: last national championship in 1989, last title game appearance 1990, last frozen four appearance 2003. Trying to hunt for higher attendance by moving the tournament around is like rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic, when what is needed is a course change. I know lots of people with no Hockey East association who go to the HE tournament; by comparison, I barely know anyone lacking an ECAC association who even knows what the ECAC is, much less who would bother going to a tournament featuring teams that seem to be content competing in a walled garden.

Kyle, you nailed it on the head. We're better only than Atlantic Hockey, give or take the unexpected RIT Frozen Four appearance a couple years ago.

Kyle Rose

RichH
Well, here's a crack at a crackpot theory.

Occam's Razor tells me you are overthinking this.

Oh, most definitely. It's what I do. It's what a lot of us here do. My point is when you give a institutions of parallel conference broader geographic influences, you will have a much more profound effect of attendance increase with increased success. I'm not saying it's the primary factor, but it's a distinct advantage.

Also, if you have everyone in New Hampshire buying UNH jerseys, hats, foam wildcat claw fingers, (instead of say...Dartmouth stuff), it drives everything surrounding the program that's important to fans. From ticket sales to advertising to TV contracts, it all helps feed, ultimately, Athletic Department budgets. ADs can then reinvest in things like recruiting trips, training facilities, athletic housing, booster banquets, etc.

Schools with state branding have that as a built-in advantage, which is why it's always shocking when a Gonzaga, George Mason, Davidson, Valparaiso, or Butler run happens. Very seldom do you see a school described as a "Jock Factory" not have a state name. And when you do, it's usually a highly respected academic institution like Duke, Notre Dame, or Stanford.

Kyle Rose

RichH
Well, here's a crack at a crackpot theory.

Occam's Razor tells me you are overthinking this. Performance is the much simpler explanation.

Going strictly on the number of teams (i.e., assuming there is as much parity as Coach Schafer claims), you would expect an ECAC Frozen Four appearance 4 out of every 5 years and a championship 1 out of every 5 years. Of course, the distribution won't be smooth: you'll occasionally get 2 or 3 years in a row with no appearances, and some years with 2 or 3 teams, with even rarer outliers toward the tails. Contrast this with reality: over the past 20 years there have been 3 appearances, for 0.75 appearances out of every 5 years, and 0 titles, for... (adds, multiplies, exponentiates) roughly 0 out of every 5 years. I really don't think you need to look any more deeply than this.

Solve the performance problem, and attendance will follow. Don't, and deal with the ECAC being a second-tier league. In that case, it's probably time to ditch the tournament weekend altogether and just play the games at the higher-seeded team's rink.

Ironic from someone who argues on most media threads that college hockey is a niche sport that can hope for little more than coverage on a reliable and high-quality internet stream. You think that theses passersby who you want to attend these events on a whim with happening to discover that NCAA Division I hockey is being sponsored will know anything about which programs have been successful recently or which teams/conferences have the most recent Frozen Four appearances? It does not follow logically. If it is so niche that the general public does not follow it and it deserves not general television coverage (an argument you made earlier this season on another thread), what are the odds that these people who you want to attend these events to boost attendance will have any clue which programs are good and which programs have recent NCAA success? The passerby with no knowledge of college hockey will see a name and be interested. Success of the conference or team is almost entirely irrelevant to the passerby who attends on a whim. Those facts are alien and often entirely unknown to him. It is true that success of the conference will increase attendance of fair-weather fans who are initiated already in the ways of college hockey, but it won't increase drive-by attendance as you imply. The former is the only effect that I can see that success of the conference will have upon attendance.

Branding and name association is what the ECAC needs. Yes, success gains television exposure which is integral to rebranding at lower costs, but it is the brand that people need to recognize. I agree with RichH's premise that it is due to locality and personal connection or perceived personal connection to an institution. Public universities that are named in such a way that associates them with their state have this connection built in for passerby attendees. The location of the ECAC Tournament does not help. It is the only conference tournament that is held without the conference footprint of the conference for which the championship is being played. Atlantic Hockey in Rochester, Hockey East in Boston, CCHA in Detroit, and WCHA in Saint Paul are all in locations where passerby attendance is expected because someone in those locations who might be visiting or a resident recognizes quickly the teams and often have a built-in affinity like RichH mentioned in his post.

The ECAC needs to rebrand itself with both success on the ice and effective marketing. The former will increase the attendance of fair-weather fans, the latter will grow the fanbase of ECAC hockey beyond the host cities of the institutions in the conference and their alumni bases. Cornell has the opportunity to begin the former type of rebranding on Friday.

Greenberg '97
So you're suggesting we change the name "Cornell" to "Central New York State." I like it.

Though alumni of Arts/Architecture/Engineering/Hotel may have a problem with it.

Personally, I would hate that (being an Engineering alumnus as you say), but it would create a better halo-effect of regional interest. The decentralized nature of the SUNY system (and the overall DIII nature of their athletic programs) sets NYS as one of the quirky exceptions. A huge portion of Upstate NY gravitates to Syracuse as a surrogate because that's a big focal city in the "where I'm from" argument, especially among the few options for BCS football or NCAA BB tournaments.

Rutgers is an interesting example, as it is the State University of NJ, as everyone from NJ knows, but I wouldn't expect the folksy folks of Iowa to be aware of that. They would probably get a big boost in revenue by going to an UNJ (or some such permutation) moniker.

UC-Berkeley is almost always referred to as "Berkeley" academically, but their athletic teams are always branded "California" or "Cal" being the first UC. Smart.

The only way to market sports is to win ... That's 95% of it. ... I've worked in sports my whole life, and no amount of marketing tricks will do the job otherwise. I've worked for some pro GMs who like to think otherwise, and they've always turned out to be wrong.

I think RichH is correct, in essence - but it's not changing. None of the ECAC schools are becoming "New York State" - so forget that.

So - combination of small market to draw from in the first place - combined with not as strong performances on a national scale...There really is no one to "blame" for this, it's just the way things have evolved.

I also believe attendance at the ECAC Tournament to be related to two additional, perhaps ironic or seemingly contradictory factors:

- the availability of games on TV
- the fact that the ECACs are not the be all, end all awesome thing to win like they used to be

I see this, for example, with HS Football ... In my area, HS football used to draw 6,000 rabid fans to a rivalry game against schools geographically next to each other ... Now, you get like 1,000 people - not as passionate. That's because a) there's so much more to do, b) people in the suburbs can turn on the TV and see 4,000 college and NFL games from the big city, so they get their fix there, and c) the rise of the State Playoff system, means the local game has less importance.

Rabid fans still tend to be parochial ... but less people are parochial (i.e. care) about their local sports team than they used to.

RichH
Rutgers is an interesting example, as it is the State University of NJ, as everyone from NJ knows, but I wouldn't expect the folksy folks of Iowa to be aware of that. They would probably get a big boost in revenue by going to an UNJ (or some such permutation) moniker.

Associating yourself with New Jersey is probably the exception to the rule.

Aaron M. Griffin
Ironic from someone who argues on most media threads that college hockey is a niche sport that can hope for little more than coverage on a reliable and high-quality internet stream.

I'm not going to go through your post and refute things point-by-point. I'll just say (a) that there is general knowledge in the northeast, even among casual hockey fans, that BU and BC are good at hockey and Harvard and Northeastern are not, (b) that even a number of casual fans some small percentage of which is large enough to fill a 14K arena can be a vanishingly small percentage of the population, thus making a traditional broadcast not economic versus other programming that could fill the same airtime, and (c) you are also overthinking this.

I have no doubt that the dynamic Rich described has something to do with relative interest in the two leagues, but I also know that the ECAC doesn't need to get another 1,000,000 fans to fill a tournament rink, which is why I think some success at the national level would suffice to put more asses in the seats.

adamw
The only way to market sports is to win ... That's 95% of it. ... I've worked in sports my whole life, and no amount of marketing tricks will do the job otherwise. I've worked for some pro GMs who like to think otherwise, and they've always turned out to be wrong.

I think RichH is correct, in essence - but it's not changing. None of the ECAC schools are becoming "New York State" - so forget that.

So - combination of small market to draw from in the first place - combined with not as strong performances on a national scale...There really is no one to "blame" for this, it's just the way things have evolved.

I also believe attendance at the ECAC Tournament to be related to two additional, perhaps ironic or seemingly contradictory factors:

- the availability of games on TV
- the fact that the ECACs are not the be all, end all awesome thing to win like they used to be

I see this, for example, with HS Football ... In my area, HS football used to draw 6,000 rabid fans to a rivalry game against schools geographically next to each other ... Now, you get like 1,000 people - not as passionate. That's because a) there's so much more to do, b) people in the suburbs can turn on the TV and see 4,000 college and NFL games from the big city, so they get their fix there, and c) the rise of the State Playoff system, means the local game has less importance.

Rabid fans still tend to be parochial ... but less people are parochial (i.e. care) about their local sports team than they used to.

I agree with that entirely (I did not mean my one post to contradict that fact) but there are many people in my hometown in Upstate New York (about 90 miles from Ithaca) who do not even know that Cornell has a historically and currently successful hockey program. People need to know that these teams even exist. There are many who do not. The fact that college hockey is still a niche sport hurts opportunities for broader exposure. So, college hockey in general and the ECAC in particular suffer from lack of exposure. I know the logical retort, that the ECAC suffers from a dearth of exposure because it is not successful and no one wants to watch "subpar" hockey on a national stage. The first step is to be successful, far easier said than done, the next step is to use increased revenues to grow the fanbase for increase coverage, merchandise sales, and attendance. The goal should be to make the ECAC Championships an event. The CCHA makes a big deal out of marketing the "CCHA at the Joe" or "Michigan at the Joe," for Michigan in particular. The ECAC and Cornell should follow a similar approach. Other than pamphlets in Bartels Hall and at Red Hot Hockey, what marketing did the ECAC or Cornell do to promote attendance?

Aaron M. Griffin
The goal should be to make the ECAC Championships an event. The CCHA makes a big deal out of marketing the "CCHA at the Joe" or "Michigan at the Joe," for Michigan in particular. The ECAC and Cornell should follow a similar approach. Other than pamphlets in Bartels Hall and at Red Hot Hockey, what marketing did the ECAC or Cornell do to promote attendance?

It's all the proverbial catch-22 ... Marketing takes money. When you say that the CCHA makes a big deal out of this ... where do you see them doing this? Anywhere not within their own TV broadcasts, web site, or press releases? Billboards in Detroit? ECAC had billboards in Atlantic City, for what it's worth -- although those were put up by the arena management, for sure.

Next ... Being at a catchy place called "The Joe" - is easy to market when there is such a place to market. "The Joe" itself is an attraction. What does the ECAC have to work with? Now we're back to venue discussions.

And ... I don't believe all that marketing is really selling anything anyway. Fans of the teams go there knowing their teams are good. Michigan is an enormous school, huge brand in the state, etc... THAT's the attraction. Not the marketing or anything else. If Michigan wasn't there, there would be crickets at The Joe. In fact, take a look at some video from the CCHA championship game. Lots of empty seats - even with Michigan in the final.

People have been lamenting the attendance at ECAC tournaments since the first one I ever went to - which was the last one in Boston - 1991 ... I've never heard a solution that would work. At this point, I find it all to be just -- it is what it is.

adamw
The only way to market sports is to win ... That's 95% of it. ... I've worked in sports my whole life, and no amount of marketing tricks will do the job otherwise. I've worked for some pro GMs who like to think otherwise, and they've always turned out to be wrong.

Absolutely. Americans, despite our voracious appetite for the "underdog/Cinderella" stories, are ridiculous bandwagon/front-runners. We get obsessed over any team, as long as they win. At Cornell, hockey and lax rules the winter/spring. Trinity squash matches are known to be rowdy. UConn Women's basketball often overshadows their Men's team.

Conversely, when the Frozen Four was in DC, I lamented to a DC resident that it was too bad the Nats didn't have a home weekend scheduled and the response was "why do you want to go see them?? They suck!" However, I'm willing to bet Nationals Park will be a hot ticket if/when the potential Strasburg-Harper era really ramps up, just as when Ovechkin suddenly turned that city into a hockey town.

We support our local teams, but only if they're winners.

Rabid fans still tend to be parochial ... but less people are parochial (i.e. care) about their local sports team than they used to.

At least beeeej does, given his avatar.

adamw
I see this, for example, with HS Football ... In my area, HS football used to draw 6,000 rabid fans to a rivalry game against schools geographically next to each other ... Now, you get like 1,000 people - not as passionate. That's because a) there's so much more to do, b) people in the suburbs can turn on the TV and see 4,000 college and NFL games from the big city, so they get their fix there, and c) the rise of the State Playoff system, means the local game has less importance.

So this leads to another question that's been itching to get out. What about our own undergraduates? My location in CT is pretty great to see lots of road games. I'm within a two-hour drive of 7 of the 12 ECAC arenas, and when you throw in recent OOC games at UMass & UNH, I've been very happy. What I perceive is a trend of fewer and fewer road-warrior undergrads than what I remember. It's easy to notice the bandies and cowbell player, but there used to be a solid group of students road-tripping to away arenas who would consolidate and really give us local alumni a shot of energy to help bring a bigger piece of the Lynah atmosphere along. In Atlantic City, I noticed a few pockets of fans that seemed to be current students or recent graduates, but there certainly didn't seem to be a Section Bs-worth of that demographic.

Is it my imagination? If not, is this a result of some of the reasons adamw ticks off above? Is the idea of following this team all over the northeast an outdated or too costly endeavor for current students? Is it that their nefarious Facebook iPad machines and 3D Twitter video games are turning their brains to mush? (OK, the last one was just to keep my curmudgeonly skills sharp.)

I understand that the concept of an online forum is pretty outdated with all the social media tools available. But I'll say that even here on eLF, with a few notable exceptions, we really don't see a whole lot of undergraduate/young alumni chatter.

Along those lines, I feel like I'm the youngest person still on Hockey-L (which will change during the off-season since I recently got a Hockey-L post titled "Marmaduke of the day." )

RichH

adamw
I see this, for example, with HS Football ... In my area, HS football used to draw 6,000 rabid fans to a rivalry game against schools geographically next to each other ... Now, you get like 1,000 people - not as passionate. That's because a) there's so much more to do, b) people in the suburbs can turn on the TV and see 4,000 college and NFL games from the big city, so they get their fix there, and c) the rise of the State Playoff system, means the local game has less importance.

So this leads to another question that's been itching to get out. What about our own undergraduates? My location in CT is pretty great to see lots of road games. I'm within a two-hour drive of 7 of the 12 ECAC arenas, and when you throw in recent OOC games at UMass & UNH, I've been very happy. What I perceive is a trend of fewer and fewer road-warrior undergrads than what I remember. It's obvious to notice the bandies and cowbell player, but there used to be a solid group of students road-tripping to away arenas who would consolidate and really give us local alumni a shot of energy to help bring a bigger piece of the Lynah atmosphere along. In Atlantic City, I noticed a few pockets of fans that seemed to be current students or recent graduates, but there certainly didn't seem to be a Section Bs-worth of that demographic.

Is it my imagination? If not, is this a result of some of the reasons adamw ticks off above? Is the idea of following this team all over the northeast an outdated or too costly endeavor for current students? Is it that their nefarious Facebook iPad machines and 3D Twitter video games are turning their brains to mush? (OK, the last one was just to keep my curmudgeonly skills sharp.)

I understand that the concept of an online forum is pretty outdated with all the social media tools available. But I'll say that even here on eLF, with a few notable exceptions, we really don't see a whole lot of undergraduate/young alumni chatter.

Along those lines, I feel like I'm the youngest person still on Hockey-L (which will change during the off-season since I recently got a Hockey-L post titled "Marmaduke of the day." )

Good points. Although this forum remains active, there's clearly far less discussion about the the games themselves -- strategy, analysis, that type of thing. And the undergraduate interest surely seems to have lagged. I used to enjoy the analysis from undergrads like Ari, Eli and Awash -- no one seems to have followed in their footsteps.

RichH

adamw
I see this, for example, with HS Football ... In my area, HS football used to draw 6,000 rabid fans to a rivalry game against schools geographically next to each other ... Now, you get like 1,000 people - not as passionate. That's because a) there's so much more to do, b) people in the suburbs can turn on the TV and see 4,000 college and NFL games from the big city, so they get their fix there, and c) the rise of the State Playoff system, means the local game has less importance.

So this leads to another question that's been itching to get out. What about our own undergraduates? My location in CT is pretty great to see lots of road games. I'm within a two-hour drive of 7 of the 12 ECAC arenas, and when you throw in recent OOC games at UMass & UNH, I've been very happy. What I perceive is a trend of fewer and fewer road-warrior undergrads than what I remember. It's obvious to notice the bandies and cowbell player, but there used to be a solid group of students road-tripping to away arenas who would consolidate and really give us local alumni a shot of energy to help bring a bigger piece of the Lynah atmosphere along. In Atlantic City, I noticed a few pockets of fans that seemed to be current students or recent graduates, but there certainly didn't seem to be a Section Bs-worth of that demographic.

Is it my imagination? If not, is this a result of some of the reasons adamw ticks off above? Is the idea of following this team all over the northeast an outdated or too costly endeavor for current students? Is it that their nefarious Facebook iPad machines and 3D Twitter video games are turning their brains to mush? (OK, the last one was just to keep my curmudgeonly skills sharp.)

I understand that the concept of an online forum is pretty outdated with all the social media tools available. But even here on eLF, with a few notable exceptions, we really don't see a whole lot of undergraduate/young alumni chatter.

Along those lines, I feel like I'm the youngest person still on Hockey-L (which will change during the off-season since I recently got a Hockey-L post titled "Marmaduke of the day." )

Among things I can think of:
Expense (especially gas costs)
Easier to follow the team from home (streaming, internet, etc.)
Its just more fun to spend a weekend in Ithaca than Potsdam or Canton, or most of the other locations in the league (this hasn't changed, but it increases the effects of the first two)
I personally enjoy road trips, but the only one I can guarantee other people will join me on is the Harvard-Dartmouth trip. Also I could probably connect this to my general belief that the people who would be the biggest supporters of Cornell Hockey are being priced out (instead of turning RPCC's main floor into a dry frosh only dance club once a month they should just thrown 10 more dollars of everyone's student activities fee into subsidizing season tickets so that they're more affordable) but I'm not going to make that effort.Main point is there's just so many more options for students now. If a few more bars in Ctown shut down and the administration keeps up its persecution of the open party however, maybe we'll see the return of road crowds.

RichH

adamw
I see this, for example, with HS Football ... In my area, HS football used to draw 6,000 rabid fans to a rivalry game against schools geographically next to each other ... Now, you get like 1,000 people - not as passionate. That's because a) there's so much more to do, b) people in the suburbs can turn on the TV and see 4,000 college and NFL games from the big city, so they get their fix there, and c) the rise of the State Playoff system, means the local game has less importance.

So this leads to another question that's been itching to get out. What about our own undergraduates? My location in CT is pretty great to see lots of road games. I'm within a two-hour drive of 7 of the 12 ECAC arenas, and when you throw in recent OOC games at UMass & UNH, I've been very happy. What I perceive is a trend of fewer and fewer road-warrior undergrads than what I remember. It's easy to notice the bandies and cowbell player, but there used to be a solid group of students road-tripping to away arenas who would consolidate and really give us local alumni a shot of energy to help bring a bigger piece of the Lynah atmosphere along. In Atlantic City, I noticed a few pockets of fans that seemed to be current students or recent graduates, but there certainly didn't seem to be a Section Bs-worth of that demographic.

Is it my imagination? If not, is this a result of some of the reasons adamw ticks off above? Is the idea of following this team all over the northeast an outdated or too costly endeavor for current students? Is it that their nefarious Facebook iPad machines and 3D Twitter video games are turning their brains to mush? (OK, the last one was just to keep my curmudgeonly skills sharp.)

I understand that the concept of an online forum is pretty outdated with all the social media tools available. But I'll say that even here on eLF, with a few notable exceptions, we really don't see a whole lot of undergraduate/young alumni chatter.

Along those lines, I feel like I'm the youngest person still on Hockey-L (which will change during the off-season since I recently got a Hockey-L post titled "Marmaduke of the day." )

As a young alumna, I know almost no one last year student-wise could make the trip down to AC for multiple reasons: too far, too expensive (the costs of driving being the biggest deterrent), not enough time to get there for the Friday games. And as for my friends who are rabid hockey fans currently on the hill, season ticket holders and otherwise, AC just wasn't feasible for them this year.

As far as I could tell at the game, there were VERY few students, especially at the Friday game. The Saturday game did have a few on the upper level, but overall it was surprising how few students were amongst the fans there.

While a lot of it comes down to money for some students, I know a lot of students who could easily afford it but either can't due to time constraints or other non-monetary reasons.

css228
Among things I can think of:
Expense (especially gas costs)
Easier to follow the team from home (streaming, internet, etc.)
Its just more fun to spend a weekend in Ithaca than Potsdam or Canton, or most of the other locations in the league (this hasn't changed, but it increases the effects of the first two)
I personally enjoy road trips, but the only one I can guarantee other people will join me on is the Harvard-Dartmouth trip. Also I could probably connect this to my general belief that the people who would be the biggest supporters of Cornell Hockey are being priced out (instead of turning RPCC's main floor into a dry frosh only dance club once a month they should just thrown 10 more dollars of everyone's student activities fee into subsidizing season tickets so that they're more affordable) but I'm not going to make that effort.Main point is there's just so many more options for students now. If a few more bars in Ctown shut down and the administration keeps up its persecution of the open party however, maybe we'll see the return of road crowds.

I'd echo all of these points, and add that (at least for me) the success of the women's team makes sticking around in Ithaca for the weekend seem more fun than hitting the road, but the cost and the time commitment are definitely the biggest factors.

-Edit-

One initiative that could revive the flagging away support (and this won't happen, but it would be nice if it did) would be for the Athletics department or whoever spends our Student Activity Fee to organize a block of tickets, travel arrangements, and perhaps accomodation, for away trips. This would make going away more of a community experience, might reduce costs, and would make the whole process much easier for student-fans.

css228

RichH

adamw
I see this, for example, with HS Football ... In my area, HS football used to draw 6,000 rabid fans to a rivalry game against schools geographically next to each other ... Now, you get like 1,000 people - not as passionate. That's because a) there's so much more to do, b) people in the suburbs can turn on the TV and see 4,000 college and NFL games from the big city, so they get their fix there, and c) the rise of the State Playoff system, means the local game has less importance.

So this leads to another question that's been itching to get out. What about our own undergraduates? My location in CT is pretty great to see lots of road games. I'm within a two-hour drive of 7 of the 12 ECAC arenas, and when you throw in recent OOC games at UMass & UNH, I've been very happy. What I perceive is a trend of fewer and fewer road-warrior undergrads than what I remember. It's obvious to notice the bandies and cowbell player, but there used to be a solid group of students road-tripping to away arenas who would consolidate and really give us local alumni a shot of energy to help bring a bigger piece of the Lynah atmosphere along. In Atlantic City, I noticed a few pockets of fans that seemed to be current students or recent graduates, but there certainly didn't seem to be a Section Bs-worth of that demographic.

Is it my imagination? If not, is this a result of some of the reasons adamw ticks off above? Is the idea of following this team all over the northeast an outdated or too costly endeavor for current students? Is it that their nefarious Facebook iPad machines and 3D Twitter video games are turning their brains to mush? (OK, the last one was just to keep my curmudgeonly skills sharp.)

I understand that the concept of an online forum is pretty outdated with all the social media tools available. But even here on eLF, with a few notable exceptions, we really don't see a whole lot of undergraduate/young alumni chatter.

Along those lines, I feel like I'm the youngest person still on Hockey-L (which will change during the off-season since I recently got a Hockey-L post titled "Marmaduke of the day." )

Among things I can think of:
Expense (especially gas costs)
Easier to follow the team from home (streaming, internet, etc.)
Its just more fun to spend a weekend in Ithaca than Potsdam or Canton, or most of the other locations in the league (this hasn't changed, but it increases the effects of the first two)
I personally enjoy road trips, but the only one I can guarantee other people will join me on is the Harvard-Dartmouth trip. Also I could probably connect this to my general belief that the people who would be the biggest supporters of Cornell Hockey are being priced out (instead of turning RPCC's main floor into a dry frosh only dance club once a month they should just thrown 10 more dollars of everyone's student activities fee into subsidizing season tickets so that they're more affordable) but I'm not going to make that effort.Main point is there's just so many more options for students now. If a few more bars in Ctown shut down and the administration keeps up its persecution of the open party however, maybe we'll see the return of road crowds.

Another deterrent to student travel (and I'm sure this is nothing new) is Ithaca's isolation, and the fact that many students don't have cars. Maybe more students would travel if it was easier (and I don't just mean cost wise). css, I'm sure you remember that when we went to the Colgate game, we didn't know if we were going until the night before because we couldn't find a ride. Has Cornell ever had a charter bus that follows the team and is organized by the athletic department? They should have one. I bet they could fill up a bus with 50 students for every trip. I would be willing to pay to go on one or two trips next year.

adamw
Next ... Being at a catchy place called "The Joe" - is easy to market when there is such a place to market. "The Joe" itself is an attraction. What does the ECAC have to work with? Now we're back to venue discussions.

Destination: Lake Placid!

jtn27

css228

RichH

adamw
I see this, for example, with HS Football ... In my area, HS football used to draw 6,000 rabid fans to a rivalry game against schools geographically next to each other ... Now, you get like 1,000 people - not as passionate. That's because a) there's so much more to do, b) people in the suburbs can turn on the TV and see 4,000 college and NFL games from the big city, so they get their fix there, and c) the rise of the State Playoff system, means the local game has less importance.

So this leads to another question that's been itching to get out. What about our own undergraduates? My location in CT is pretty great to see lots of road games. I'm within a two-hour drive of 7 of the 12 ECAC arenas, and when you throw in recent OOC games at UMass & UNH, I've been very happy. What I perceive is a trend of fewer and fewer road-warrior undergrads than what I remember. It's obvious to notice the bandies and cowbell player, but there used to be a solid group of students road-tripping to away arenas who would consolidate and really give us local alumni a shot of energy to help bring a bigger piece of the Lynah atmosphere along. In Atlantic City, I noticed a few pockets of fans that seemed to be current students or recent graduates, but there certainly didn't seem to be a Section Bs-worth of that demographic.

Is it my imagination? If not, is this a result of some of the reasons adamw ticks off above? Is the idea of following this team all over the northeast an outdated or too costly endeavor for current students? Is it that their nefarious Facebook iPad machines and 3D Twitter video games are turning their brains to mush? (OK, the last one was just to keep my curmudgeonly skills sharp.)

I understand that the concept of an online forum is pretty outdated with all the social media tools available. But even here on eLF, with a few notable exceptions, we really don't see a whole lot of undergraduate/young alumni chatter.

Along those lines, I feel like I'm the youngest person still on Hockey-L (which will change during the off-season since I recently got a Hockey-L post titled "Marmaduke of the day." )

Among things I can think of:
Expense (especially gas costs)
Easier to follow the team from home (streaming, internet, etc.)
Its just more fun to spend a weekend in Ithaca than Potsdam or Canton, or most of the other locations in the league (this hasn't changed, but it increases the effects of the first two)
I personally enjoy road trips, but the only one I can guarantee other people will join me on is the Harvard-Dartmouth trip. Also I could probably connect this to my general belief that the people who would be the biggest supporters of Cornell Hockey are being priced out (instead of turning RPCC's main floor into a dry frosh only dance club once a month they should just thrown 10 more dollars of everyone's student activities fee into subsidizing season tickets so that they're more affordable) but I'm not going to make that effort.Main point is there's just so many more options for students now. If a few more bars in Ctown shut down and the administration keeps up its persecution of the open party however, maybe we'll see the return of road crowds.

Another deterrent to student travel (and I'm sure this is nothing new) is Ithaca's isolation, and the fact that many students don't have cars. Maybe more students would travel if it was easier (and I don't just mean cost wise). css, I'm sure you remember that when we went to the Colgate game, we didn't know if we were going until the night before because we couldn't find a ride. Has Cornell ever had a charter bus that follows the team and is organized by the athletic department? They should have one. I bet they could fill up a bus with 50 students for every trip. I would be willing to pay to go on one or two trips next year.

I definitely remember that. Hitched a ride with the band for the night. Colgate would be a really easy trip for them to buy 200 tickets and organize a few buses, as tickets are pretty cheap, and its not far at all. I'd like to see Ben's idea, but I too have my doubts. I think it could greatly increase the attendance for a Yale-Brown or Union-RPI trip. Would be kind of pointless to use on Q-PAc & Princeton since that's over break, and as much as I enjoyed the North Country, that's always going to be a tough sell because its the North Country and there really isn't anything to do there other than the hockey. I also think that Athletics really should bring back the line to build student enthusiasm, or at least the ticket line equivalent they had my freshman year. I was the lucky winner of the opportunity to sit on the bench during Red-White. Let's just say I was totally sold on Cornell hockey fandom after that experience. I thought it was a mistake not to at least have a similar even this year for seat selection.

jtwcornell91

adamw
Next ... Being at a catchy place called "The Joe" - is easy to market when there is such a place to market. "The Joe" itself is an attraction. What does the ECAC have to work with? Now we're back to venue discussions.

Destination: Lake Placid!

I think Lake Placid was neglected upthread when Trotsky was brainstorming for places with the potential for "grassroots civic involvement." The actual community interest in the tournament was one of the great things about LP as a venue (reasonable proximity to Clarkson and SLU presumably being a major factor in that). Of course, LP had its own disadvantages that we don't need to rehash again here.

If a "destination" is what they want, maybe they should look at having it in Newark. Unlike MSG, that arena has a decent amount of spare capacity that time of year (and more so in the near future once the Nets move to Brooklyn). Physically, it's a modern (unlke Albany) NHL-sized (unlike Lake Placid) building that was built with hockey in mind (unlike Atlantic City). I haven't been inside the behind-the-scenes facilities, but I have to assume they're high-quality. It's not centrally located like Albany or Hartford, but I think the selection of AC demonstrates that that isn't a primary concern, and it's convenient to a major airport (if that's relevant) and to highways. And for marketing purposes, if East Rutherford is close enough that the NFL can call it "New York" (for the Giants and the Jets, and presumably for the 2014 Super Bowl) then Newark is close enough that the ECAC can do the same. Maybe it's ridiculous, but it's a thought.

Josh '99
Newark. . . it's convenient to a major airport (if that's relevant) and to highways.

And trains. But it won't happen.

I'm surprised that nobody has really mentioned the Ivy League "factor". We've already seen how the Ivy League rules have made our football and basketball teams nationally uncompetitive. It's something we basically accept (although some of us don't like it).

I think football and basketball basically cratered almost instantly because there were 2-300 schools that were competing for talent. What I believe we're starting to see is that factor starting to come into play in hockey. There are a lot more DI schools now than there were when Hockey East formed. Hell, there are even more Hockey East Schools now than when it formed.

I think those new schools are finally diluting the talent pool to a point where the Ivy League rules are making the whole conference suffer. And I don't see name recognition or school location fixing it. This is a downward spiral that is the result of withdrawing from the national "way things are done." If you want to compete you don't hamstring yorurself.

Maybe the new financial aid rules will help some, but I have my doubts.

Josh '99
And for marketing purposes, if East Rutherford is close enough that the NFL can call it "New York" (for the Giants and the Jets, and presumably for the 2014 Super Bowl) then Newark is close enough that the ECAC can do the same. Maybe it's ridiculous, but it's a thought.

All this talk of Newark, yet I don't think I've seen anyone mention the Izod Center (nee Brendan Byrne Arena). Both of its pro tenants are long gone, and it was certainly built with ice hockey in mind. (Edit: scoop85 mentioned it after last year's finals)

Yes, the facility has about as much charm as the one out in Uniondale, and is probably slated for demolition or down-scaling, but its proximity to New York should at least bring it into the discussion. Ticketmaster shows 16 events listed between now and August, so it's not like we'd be competing with some big money maker.

Thanks to scoop85, css228, bnr24, Ben, and jtn27 for your thoughtful replies.

I think back to the 2003 & 2005 teams (and even 1996 because it was a big renaissance of the program) and there were stretches where we just didn't feel like Cornell would lose as soon as they stepped on the ice each night. When teams like that put it together and go on a run, there's a feeling around the Faithful (young and old) of "We will follow this team to the end of the earth, I don't care what it takes." It's kind of infectious. I hope it happens again and hits the students.

RichH
Thanks to scoop85, css228, bnr24, Ben, and jtn27 for your thoughtful replies.

I think back to the 2003 & 2005 teams (and even 1996 because it was a big renaissance of the program) and there were stretches where we just didn't feel like Cornell would lose as soon as they stepped on the ice each night. When teams like that put it together and go on a run, there's a feeling around the Faithful (young and old) of "We will follow this team to the end of the earth, I don't care what it takes." It's kind of infectious. I hope it happens again and hits the students.

Sure, the fans said "the end of the earth," but that was before Atlantic City, New Jersey.

So my two cents. Unless you can get Boston, or maybe NYC, to work, forget a "destination" arena. There just aren't any for us. Our problems are small schools without name recognition. I'll bet PSU will not have problems with attendance. You've got 40,000, or some odd (maybe both), students. You're going to have some go to games. HEA works because of the schools in Boston, CCHA works, as Adam says, because UM is next door, WCHA works because it's Minneapolis. Those are all big hockey towns, with big schools nearby. Well maybe not Boston, but a lot of rabid small hockey schools nearby. We will never have that. Look at AHA, it's not really working in Rochester any better than we are.

It will be interesting to see what happens when all the realignment takes place. Where does the Big Ten go, to Detroit? What about the new "super" conf? Do they stay in Minny? Would people go if Minny wasn't there? Could the WCHA use Minneapolis, or would no one fill the place? Some of the natural places may not work out as well for them in another year. HEA will always have Boston, the others?

So we should quit trying to figure out some grand solution, that I don't think will ever happen. Pick a good central place like Albany, or a reasonable hockey town like Providence, and go and be happy. We will never be a grand hockey conference, and we should try and stop kicking ourselves because of it. If we stay two steps ahead of the AHA, we might find ourselves on par with some of the remodeled former big leagues, whatever they will call the old WCHA and CCHA. They may come down to our level.

I'm happy I knew what it was like to consistently compete with the best, but now I'm happy that we can be there sometimes. Just give me a reasonable place to go to the ECACs, and that's not AC.

Jim Hyla
Where does the Big Ten go, to Detroit? What about the new "super" conf?

B1G Hockey will play its first tournament in Saint Paul, MN at the Xcel Energy Center. The B1G is looking for a rotation (sound familiar?) of venues to be fair to its geographically disparate teams. The envisioned rotation includes Saint Paul and Detroit. However, the Xcel Energy Center is the only confirmed venue so far.

Jeff Hopkins '82
I'm surprised that nobody has really mentioned the Ivy League "factor". We've already seen how the Ivy League rules have made our football and basketball teams nationally uncompetitive. It's something we basically accept (although some of us don't like it).

I think football and basketball basically cratered almost instantly because there were 2-300 schools that were competing for talent. What I believe we're starting to see is that factor starting to come into play in hockey. There are a lot more DI schools now than there were when Hockey East formed. Hell, there are even more Hockey East Schools now than when it formed.

I think those new schools are finally diluting the talent pool to a point where the Ivy League rules are making the whole conference suffer. And I don't see name recognition or school location fixing it. This is a downward spiral that is the result of withdrawing from the national "way things are done." If you want to compete you don't hamstring yorurself.

Maybe the new financial aid rules will help some, but I have my doubts.

The financial aid rules definitely help. I know from my time with CUTF/XC that if you recruit at a certain economic income level, you effectively get full and partial scholarships without any real limit. That brings in a lot of talent we used to be unable to get, and as a result the quality of Ivy Track and Field has dramatically risen the last 10 years or so. I also remember seeing an article on wrestling that insinuated the the same thing. The games limit really hurts our hockey team though. It creates no margin of error in terms of getting into NCAAs and it limits the amount of times our team can really seek out top notch competition in order to be ready for it come March. I have no doubt a program with Cornell's reputation could get more big games if it didn't have to schedule its NC schedule when many programs are starting to get into conference play.

RichH
Thanks to scoop85, css228, bnr24, Ben, and jtn27 for your thoughtful replies.

I think back to the 2003 & 2005 teams (and even 1996 because it was a big renaissance of the program) and there were stretches where we just didn't feel like Cornell would lose as soon as they stepped on the ice each night. When teams like that put it together and go on a run, there's a feeling around the Faithful (young and old) of "We will follow this team to the end of the earth, I don't care what it takes." It's kind of infectious. I hope it happens again and hits the students.

It absolutely could, but theres definitely a feeling I get that athletics lets the program try to sell itself a little too much. I just missed out on the last days of the line, but from what I hear, things like trying to score on Scrivens, or Schafer delivering food to students who camped out made getting hockey tickets the thing to do, even more so that it currently is. One of my good friends is the Blue Devil at Duke, but even he camped out for Carolina tickets (despite the obvious fact he didn't need to) because that's just what you do at Duke. As much as I shudder to think about the Faithful like their inferior comparison at Duke, I think that the administration goes out of their way to cultivate that sense of belonging in the fan base. We used to do that very well, and we are still pretty good at it. But if you want people to travel with the team, you have to make the program more accessible (i.e. make tickets cheaper) and go out of your way to build a buzz around the program (i.e. bring back the line). Those two little things, along with moving back to 7:30 starts (did you see the pre-game attendance against Dartmouth?) would go a long way in re-energizing the fan base,

Duke basketball isn't selling out home games. The Cameron Crazies are bemoaning how it's not like old times. Duke wins the NCAA championship and attendance falls.

[dukechronicle.com]

Duke Chronicle
Once regularly an asylum for 1,200 Crazies, Section 17 at Cameron Indoor Stadium now rarely plays host to a student-only crowd. Student attendance at men’s basketball games has fallen consistently over the last five years, even dropping after Duke won its fourth national championship in 2010. This season, approximately 650 undergraduates have attended each game, 150 fewer than during the 2008-09 season. As a result, Duke Athletics has begun to sell an increasing number of general admission tickets in the student section on a regular basis.

[Almost as cold as waiting outside Lynah? -ed] “It does take a lot to go to K-Ville and wait outside, sometimes in the cold and in the rain, and then go into Cameron where you have to stand and jump up and down,” co-head line monitor Ellie Garrett said. “Students need to realize that going to Cameron is... an awesome experience.”

This lack of undergraduate interest has led Duke Athletics to sell about 300 tickets per game this season, priced at $65. ...

When the Blue Devils played Wake Forest last week, 400 tickets were made available to Iron Dukes because of concerns over the game’s competition with fraternity and sorority rush ... Still, Section 17 was still under capacity at tip-off, leading head coach Mike Krzyzewski to gesticulate across the court during play, encouraging the fans to get louder. ...

[Give Duke credit for this] “Every other school in the country is playing canned music during timeouts, doing cheesy promotions,” Forman said. “We try to stay away from that.”

Jim Hyla
So we should quit trying to figure out some grand solution, that I don't think will ever happen. Pick a good central place like Albany, or a reasonable hockey town like Providence, and go and be happy. We will never be a grand hockey conference, and we should try and stop kicking ourselves because of it. If we stay two steps ahead of the AHA, we might find ourselves on par with some of the remodeled former big leagues, whatever they will call the old WCHA and CCHA. They may come down to our level.

I'm happy I knew what it was like to consistently compete with the best, but now I'm happy that we can be there sometimes. Just give me a reasonable place to go to the ECACs, and that's not AC.

I know it's not a central location, per se ... but this was my main argument in favor of Lake Placid, and I wrote about it a lot when they moved to Albany. And JTW alluded to this as well, that Lake Placid may be the only actual "destination" that has any marketability.

If you're not going to be the best, and you're not going to compete in a major city - then why not take advantage of the one unique thing you do have at your disposal? Lake Placid gave the ECAC an identity that was unique and has a very favorable emotional component to any hockey fan. The people in Lake Placid made it an "Event." It's a special place.

AC is 1 hr. 20 minutes from my house - and LP is 6 hrs. on a good day (i.e. not snowing) ... yet I'd still be very in favor of Lake Placid any day of the week over anywhere else.

Alas, it will never happen so long as there are coaches in the league who don't want to play on the big ice surface. I understand their concern with it, but they are also the ones to complain about the league's marketability issues.

css228

MattS

kingpin248
Another point to remember: the AHA does not hold a consolation game, so I'd bet that most of the 2,443 in Rochester were actually inside the BCA for the final.

Another thing that hurt the AHA attendance was that the RIT women were playing for the NCAA DIII Championship at the exact same time at RIT as the AF - RIT game at the BCA. So I know that pulled from the attendance the AHA game.

Not to mention that Air Force, being halfway across the country, wasn't likely to have much of a showing there.

I went to the game because my sister's nephew plays for AF. It was decidedly a RIT crowd…surprise, surprise, but the AF folks held their own, especially after they went up 2-0.
Now, here's something amazing: An AF Academy alum (who lives in Rochester) comps everyone who signs up in advance for a ticket. The guest list was pretty impressive!

Several of us were discussing the venue issue while in AC this past weekend.

The closest the ECAC has ever come to having a real "event" location was the old Boston Garden. It was a wonderful venue that was filled for nearly every ECAC championship I ever attended as a CU fan. Also, Boston is a great hockey town, a nice city to visit, not too expensive for current students and young alumns and has a reasonable contingent of alumni who will turn out for their teams. There were fabulous games there in the 60s, 70s and a bit beyond. Alas the old Boston Garden is a memory. I don't think that the "new" Garden would work as well, but might be worth a try.

The second closest to an "event" location was Lake Placid. For those of us who experienced Cornell-Clarkson in 1970 in the old rink for the NCAA championship and/or the USA gold medal run in 1980, this is a special place. The town is still quaint, fun, and not too expensive. Yes, it's a drive for most, but not truly terrible. However, the biggest problem with it is the Olympic ice sheet. I believe that if it was 200x85, the ECAC could seriously consider it.

As several have mentioned, there are plenty of rinks with 7000+ seating capacity or more within the ECAC. Frankly, for the most part, it doesn't matter where the ECAC plays within the general confines of the center of the ECAC. Atlantic City just isn't the solution. It's not a hockey town. It's generally too expensive for students and too far away for just about everyone! The bottom line, there is no draw to the place.

IMO, the ECAC needs to find a decent rink (as I and others have mentioned, there are several), market the heck out of it, put some packages together for participating schools (including transportation, several hotels at different price points, tickets, etc) and have a decent TV package for those who can't/won't make the trip. Stick with it for a few years, tweak the packages each year, and build it into something that fans will look forward to. AC is obviously not "it". Albany could be, but it too needs better packaging to be successful. Both Bridgeport at Worcester are also possibilities. Both cities are closer to most ECAC teams than AC. Each has some college hockey connections, aren't too expense, and can generally be driven to.

My $.02

You might want to read Ken Schott's post-mortem on AC. A few quotes:

There were 4,131 fans there? Really?

Move the tournament
This was my first experience covering the tournament in Atlantic City. And, honestly, I didn't like it.

The games were poorly attended. There were allegedly 3,462 fans in Boardwalk Hall for Friday's two games, and 4,131 fans for Saturday's contests. Were those numbers chosen from the New Jersey Pick-4 Lottery?

There was no atmosphere in the building. At one point during the championship game, it was so quiet that I thought I was in a library and not a hockey game.

If there is a way the league can buy out the final year of its deal with Atlantic City, do it. It would save the ECACH another possible embarrassment next year.

billhoward
Duke basketball isn't selling out home games. The Cameron Crazies are bemoaning how it's not like old times. Duke wins the NCAA championship and attendance falls.

[dukechronicle.com]

Duke Chronicle
Once regularly an asylum for 1,200 Crazies, Section 17 at Cameron Indoor Stadium now rarely plays host to a student-only crowd. Student attendance at men’s basketball games has fallen consistently over the last five years, even dropping after Duke won its fourth national championship in 2010. This season, approximately 650 undergraduates have attended each game, 150 fewer than during the 2008-09 season. As a result, Duke Athletics has begun to sell an increasing number of general admission tickets in the student section on a regular basis.

[Almost as cold as waiting outside Lynah? -ed] “It does take a lot to go to K-Ville and wait outside, sometimes in the cold and in the rain, and then go into Cameron where you have to stand and jump up and down,” co-head line monitor Ellie Garrett said. “Students need to realize that going to Cameron is... an awesome experience.”

This lack of undergraduate interest has led Duke Athletics to sell about 300 tickets per game this season, priced at $65. ...

When the Blue Devils played Wake Forest last week, 400 tickets were made available to Iron Dukes because of concerns over the game’s competition with fraternity and sorority rush ... Still, Section 17 was still under capacity at tip-off, leading head coach Mike Krzyzewski to gesticulate across the court during play, encouraging the fans to get louder. ...

[Give Duke credit for this] “Every other school in the country is playing canned music during timeouts, doing cheesy promotions,” Forman said. “We try to stay away from that.”

That is definitely true. I don't think you need to do cheesy promotions, but how would bringing back a beloved tradition hurt?

Jim Hyla
You might want to read Ken Schott's post-mortem on AC. A few quotes:

There were 4,131 fans there? Really?

Move the tournament
This was my first experience covering the tournament in Atlantic City. And, honestly, I didn't like it.

The games were poorly attended. There were allegedly 3,462 fans in Boardwalk Hall for Friday's two games, and 4,131 fans for Saturday's contests. Were those numbers chosen from the New Jersey Pick-4 Lottery?

There was no atmosphere in the building. At one point during the championship game, it was so quiet that I thought I was in a library and not a hockey game.

If there is a way the league can buy out the final year of its deal with Atlantic City, do it. It would save the ECACH another possible embarrassment next year.

I guess the very loud (louder than the Lynah Faithful Zajac insisted) "Messa faithful" did not show up. Also, a Union "fan" behind bnr24 and me on Saturday said that the "Cornell fans were obnoxious and made the entire [consolation] game disgusting." I am sure he enjoyed when she and I joined in with a group of other Faithful at the ECAC Championship game chanting "sieve" at both Grosenick and Girard among various other chants.

adamw
I know it's not a central location, per se ... but this was my main argument in favor of Lake Placid, and I wrote about it a lot when they moved to Albany. And JTW alluded to this as well, that Lake Placid may be the only actual "destination" that has any marketability.

If you're not going to be the best, and you're not going to compete in a major city - then why not take advantage of the one unique thing you do have at your disposal? Lake Placid gave the ECAC an identity that was unique and has a very favorable emotional component to any hockey fan. The people in Lake Placid made it an "Event." It's a special place.

AC is 1 hr. 20 minutes from my house - and LP is 6 hrs. on a good day (i.e. not snowing) ... yet I'd still be very in favor of Lake Placid any day of the week over anywhere else.

Alas, it will never happen so long as there are coaches in the league who don't want to play on the big ice surface. I understand their concern with it, but they are also the ones to complain about the league's marketability issues.

Today's Cornell teams are far better suited to play on the big sheet than the ECAC Championship teams of 1996 and 1997.

Larry72
Several of us were discussing the venue issue while in AC this past weekend.

The closest the ECAC has ever come to having a real "event" location was the old Boston Garden. It was a wonderful venue that was filled for nearly every ECAC championship I ever attended as a CU fan. Also, Boston is a great hockey town, a nice city to visit, not too expensive for current students and young alumns and has a reasonable contingent of alumni who will turn out for their teams. There were fabulous games there in the 60s, 70s and a bit beyond. Alas the old Boston Garden is a memory. I don't think that the "new" Garden would work as well, but might be worth a try.

The second closest to an "event" location was Lake Placid. For those of us who experienced Cornell-Clarkson in 1970 in the old rink for the NCAA championship and/or the USA gold medal run in 1980, this is a special place. The town is still quaint, fun, and not too expensive. Yes, it's a drive for most, but not truly terrible. However, the biggest problem with it is the Olympic ice sheet. I believe that if it was 200x85, the ECAC could seriously consider it.

As several have mentioned, there are plenty of rinks with 7000+ seating capacity or more within the ECAC. Frankly, for the most part, it doesn't matter where the ECAC plays within the general confines of the center of the ECAC. Atlantic City just isn't the solution. It's not a hockey town. It's generally too expensive for students and too far away for just about everyone! The bottom line, there is no draw to the place.

IMO, the ECAC needs to find a decent rink (as I and others have mentioned, there are several), market the heck out of it, put some packages together for participating schools (including transportation, several hotels at different price points, tickets, etc) and have a decent TV package for those who can't/won't make the trip. Stick with it for a few years, tweak the packages each year, and build it into something that fans will look forward to. AC is obviously not "it". Albany could be, but it too needs better packaging to be successful. Both Bridgeport at Worcester are also possibilities. Both cities are closer to most ECAC teams than AC. Each has some college hockey connections, aren't too expense, and can generally be driven to.

My $.02

If the regionals in Bridgeport draw well this year, we have an answer for an ECAC venue. Last year there was Yale as a high home seed. The NCAA expects a better draw than Albany, and with Union and Mass-Lowell as the eastern teams we will see just how well they Bridgeport draws hockey fans without a local connection.

adamw
The only way to market sports is to win ... That's 95% of it. ... I've worked in sports my whole life, and no amount of marketing tricks will do the job otherwise. I've worked for some pro GMs who like to think otherwise, and they've always turned out to be wrong.

There are a few exceptions, but even attendance at Chicago Cubs games falls off a little bit after especially dismal seasons.

css228
The games limit really hurts our hockey team though. It creates no margin of error in terms of getting into NCAAs and it limits the amount of times our team can really seek out top notch competition in order to be ready for it come March. I have no doubt a program with Cornell's reputation could get more big games if it didn't have to schedule its NC schedule when many programs are starting to get into conference play.

The late start also sets us back relative to the opposition, so we have a handicap against any non-Ivy we meet before New Year's that can amount to a 50% or more longer schedule.

Aaron M. Griffin

Jim Hyla
You might want to read Ken Schott's post-mortem on AC. A few quotes:

There were 4,131 fans there? Really?

Move the tournament
This was my first experience covering the tournament in Atlantic City. And, honestly, I didn't like it.

The games were poorly attended. There were allegedly 3,462 fans in Boardwalk Hall for Friday's two games, and 4,131 fans for Saturday's contests. Were those numbers chosen from the New Jersey Pick-4 Lottery?

There was no atmosphere in the building. At one point during the championship game, it was so quiet that I thought I was in a library and not a hockey game.

If there is a way the league can buy out the final year of its deal with Atlantic City, do it. It would save the ECACH another possible embarrassment next year.

I guess the very loud (louder than the Lynah Faithful Zajac insisted) "Messa faithful" did not show up. Also, a Union "fan" behind bnr24 and me on Saturday said that the "Cornell fans were obnoxious and made the entire [consolation] game disgusting." I am sure he enjoyed when she and I joined in with a group of other Faithful at the ECAC Championship game chanting "sieve" at both Grosenick and Girard among various other chants.

Yeah, we were told by rink security to stop,,, But it was fun until I decided it probably wasn't worth it to get myself into a situation that would have required staying in Atlantic City any longer.

css228

Aaron M. Griffin

Jim Hyla
You might want to read Ken Schott's post-mortem on AC. A few quotes:

There were 4,131 fans there? Really?

Move the tournament
This was my first experience covering the tournament in Atlantic City. And, honestly, I didn't like it.

The games were poorly attended. There were allegedly 3,462 fans in Boardwalk Hall for Friday's two games, and 4,131 fans for Saturday's contests. Were those numbers chosen from the New Jersey Pick-4 Lottery?

There was no atmosphere in the building. At one point during the championship game, it was so quiet that I thought I was in a library and not a hockey game.

If there is a way the league can buy out the final year of its deal with Atlantic City, do it. It would save the ECACH another possible embarrassment next year.

I guess the very loud (louder than the Lynah Faithful Zajac insisted) "Messa faithful" did not show up. Also, a Union "fan" behind bnr24 and me on Saturday said that the "Cornell fans were obnoxious and made the entire [consolation] game disgusting." I am sure he enjoyed when she and I joined in with a group of other Faithful at the ECAC Championship game chanting "sieve" at both Grosenick and Girard among various other chants.

Yeah, we were told by rink security to stop,,, But it was fun until I decided it probably wasn't worth it to get myself into a situation that would have required staying in Atlantic City any longer.

You were one of the ones starting it? It was fun. We stayed only through the first period but then left because we had to get back to Philadelphia. Also, staying longer in Jersey than one has to would be rough.

releck97
I went to the game because my sister's nephew plays for AF. It was decidedly a RIT crowd…surprise, surprise, but the AF folks held their own, especially after they went up 2-0.

Well, sure, if anybody can move about the country, it'd be Air Force people. Cadets without the money to travel could sign up for drones that circled the arena. Thank goodness AF didn't lose.

releck97
Now, here's something amazing: An AF Academy alum (who lives in Rochester) comps everyone who signs up in advance for a ticket. The guest list was pretty impressive!

I was about to say, "Your defense dollars at work," but actually, that's a very nice touch. I'm still grateful to a Cornell alum who paid my way to a Cornell Club dinner when I was feeling broke a couple years out of school. If you're an undergrad now and somebody bought you a round in Atlantic City, return the favor in 20 years.

Aaron M. Griffin

css228

Aaron M. Griffin

Jim Hyla
You might want to read Ken Schott's post-mortem on AC. A few quotes:

There were 4,131 fans there? Really?

Move the tournament
This was my first experience covering the tournament in Atlantic City. And, honestly, I didn't like it.

The games were poorly attended. There were allegedly 3,462 fans in Boardwalk Hall for Friday's two games, and 4,131 fans for Saturday's contests. Were those numbers chosen from the New Jersey Pick-4 Lottery?

There was no atmosphere in the building. At one point during the championship game, it was so quiet that I thought I was in a library and not a hockey game.

If there is a way the league can buy out the final year of its deal with Atlantic City, do it. It would save the ECACH another possible embarrassment next year.

I guess the very loud (louder than the Lynah Faithful Zajac insisted) "Messa faithful" did not show up. Also, a Union "fan" behind bnr24 and me on Saturday said that the "Cornell fans were obnoxious and made the entire [consolation] game disgusting." I am sure he enjoyed when she and I joined in with a group of other Faithful at the ECAC Championship game chanting "sieve" at both Grosenick and Girard among various other chants.

Yeah, we were told by rink security to stop,,, But it was fun until I decided it probably wasn't worth it to get myself into a situation that would have required staying in Atlantic City any longer.

You were one of the ones starting it? It was fun. We stayed only through the first period but then left because we had to get back to Philadelphia. Also, staying longer in Jersey than one has to would be rough.

Yep, I figured I needed to get back to Philly too. On a related note,


consolation highlights. I'm under the distinct impression that no other video of the tournament exists.

css228

Aaron M. Griffin

css228

Aaron M. Griffin

Jim Hyla
You might want to read Ken Schott's post-mortem on AC. A few quotes:

There were 4,131 fans there? Really?

Move the tournament
This was my first experience covering the tournament in Atlantic City. And, honestly, I didn't like it.

The games were poorly attended. There were allegedly 3,462 fans in Boardwalk Hall for Friday's two games, and 4,131 fans for Saturday's contests. Were those numbers chosen from the New Jersey Pick-4 Lottery?

There was no atmosphere in the building. At one point during the championship game, it was so quiet that I thought I was in a library and not a hockey game.

If there is a way the league can buy out the final year of its deal with Atlantic City, do it. It would save the ECACH another possible embarrassment next year.

I guess the very loud (louder than the Lynah Faithful Zajac insisted) "Messa faithful" did not show up. Also, a Union "fan" behind bnr24 and me on Saturday said that the "Cornell fans were obnoxious and made the entire [consolation] game disgusting." I am sure he enjoyed when she and I joined in with a group of other Faithful at the ECAC Championship game chanting "sieve" at both Grosenick and Girard among various other chants.

Yeah, we were told by rink security to stop,,, But it was fun until I decided it probably wasn't worth it to get myself into a situation that would have required staying in Atlantic City any longer.

You were one of the ones starting it? It was fun. We stayed only through the first period but then left because we had to get back to Philadelphia. Also, staying longer in Jersey than one has to would be rough.

Yep, I figured I needed to get back to Philly too. On a related note,


consolation highlights. I'm under the distinct impression that no other video of the tournament exists.

I am not sure if that is wishful thinking hoping to forget the horrific Friday loss, but all the games are available for free at RPI TV. The games are in their entirety. Here is the less painful Colgate-Cornell game in its entirety.