Atlantic City-ECAC hockey attendance fiasco

Attendance was so bad at the ECACs in Atlantic City in year 1 of the 3-year run that they were omitted from the scoresheets. The Atlantic City Press reported the Friday attendance as 3,357 in a 10,500-seat arena. Saturday's turnout seemed even lighter in the championship game. Would attendance Friday have been under 2,500 had Quinnipiac replaced Cornell as the fourth team in the tournament?

If you're a coach not in the tournament or an ECAC official of some kind (and there were lots of plastic credentials marked ECAC around peoples' necks in the building), this was a great place to be. Not so for the fans, all of whom except Princeton (had they made it) had a longer drive than to Albany. Remember the 1970 NCAA title game was played at the dinky 2,000-seat Olympic Arena in Lake Placid because it was a neat place for the NCAA hierarchy to bask for a week even if meant shutting out 4,000-plus Cornell fans. That was the height of officialdom's ignorance of the fans. At the time, the ECAC tournament was selling out 15,000-seat Boston Garden the week before.

See this snarky blog from the [blog.timesunion.com]:

Pete Doherty
(Update: The “announced” attendance for 10,300-seat Boardwalk Hall was 3,357.)

In front of a lot of people disguised as empty seats, second-seeded Yale and fourth-seeded Cornell recorded shutout victories tonight to advance to the Eastern College Athletic Conference championship game at Boardwalk Hall in Atlantic City, N.J..

Yale defeated 12-seeded Colgate — which had eliminated RPI and Union the past two weekends — 4-0, and Cornell held on for a 3-0 victory over third-seeded Dartmouth.

“It wasn’t a championship atmosphere in the crowd,” Yale coach Keith Allain told the Atlantic City Press.

If Atlantic City is paying the ECAC for bringing the tournament to Atlantic City, would they be so disenchanted they try to buy out the next two years? Or is anything better than nothing in the building, which seems to be lightly used in early spring if you saw the schedule posted on the ticket office wall. And would the ECAC be so embarrassed that it would be willing to walk away, back to Albany, in hopes of getting back to the 5,000 - 7,500 attendance level? It's pretty clear the ECACs belong in Albany or Lake Placid.

Friday Cornell box score: [www.cornellbigred.com]
Saturday Cornell box score: [www.cornellbigred.com]

billhoward,

I agree with the general points you make about AC.
The business opportunity for the ecac aside, the tournamount should ultimately be played within the general boundaries of the conference. Atlantic City just isn't it. It's not accessible to most of the fans and its not the draw as a destination that fans either wanted or could afford.

I believe my dad and I will go to a few nearby away games (e.g., Brown, Yale, Quinnipiac, RPI, Union) to make up for watching the tournament on TV next year.

If the best they can do is to put 3500 fannies in seats, maybe they ought to consider some of the small facilities in the northeast and there are many....I don't know about the rest of you...But, if I'm going to a hockey game with 3499 other people, I'd rather be an a 4000 seat arena that seems nearly full (than a 10000 seat arena that seems like death valley)...What is their fixation with the large, but nearly empty arenas?

redice
But, if I'm going to a hockey game with 3499 other people, I'd rather be an a 4000 seat arena that seems nearly full (than a 10000 seat arena that seems like death valley).

You might feel differently if you were the 4001st person who wanted to see the game.

dragonday92
[Atlantic City] is not accessible to most of the fans and it's not the draw as a destination that fans either wanted or could afford.

It's possible the ECAC in its mind transferred the popularity of the Frozen Four and its year-in-advance sellouts to the ECAC finals even though that was not the case in Albany (geographical center of the ECAC) or Lake Placid (a spiritual center for USA hockey). This for a league ('EZAC') that hadn't placed a team in the NCAA title game since 1990 or won it all since 1989). Maybe the ECAC tournament final round attendance changes with a victory by Yale or Union or (long shot) RPI.

I don't know how much the quality of the playing surface plays into the venue discussion at the league office, but geez that ice was horrendous.

imafrshmn
I don't know how much the quality of the playing surface plays into the venue discussion at the league office, but geez that ice was horrendous.

Heading into Saturday's game, we talked about how the allegedly rough ice would slow down Yale's precision offense.

dragonday92
The business opportunity for the ecac aside, the tournamount should ultimately be played within the general boundaries of the conference. Atlantic City just isn't it. It's not accessible to most of the fans and its not the draw as a destination that fans either wanted or could afford.

Agee. I for one would like to see us go back to Boston. As some remember, after Hockey East split off, the ECAC and Hockey East had combined finals at Boston Garden (HockeyFest 90). There was no consolation game, but rather both finals on Sat. One set of semis on Thursday, the other on Friday. The major problem that I saw was it was just too popular. We couldn't both have finals Sat. PM.

So what's wrong with semis on Thursday and finals Saturday afternoon. We could all watch Hockey East semis and finals if we wanted, and vice versa. I don't know about costs with the current Garden, but I'd certainly plan on going every year, regardless of CU in or not. I could also bring my family for a fun weekend. They can do something else if they don't want to see all the games. Sure the games on Thursday would be more difficult to swing, but if it's successful we might be able to alternate with Hockey East, although I doubt they'd agree to that.

I don't know about having both the Bruins and Celtics away for that long, but I can't imagine that couldn't be worked out.

Regardless of its problems, I can almost guarantee there would be a bigger crowd. It is a hockey town, with a lot of ECAC grads living there, and I think there would be a lot of enthusiasm. We'd certainly get more press than at AC.

I can always hope.

Jim Hyla

dragonday92
The business opportunity for the ecac aside, the tournamount should ultimately be played within the general boundaries of the conference. Atlantic City just isn't it. It's not accessible to most of the fans and its not the draw as a destination that fans either wanted or could afford.

Agee. I for one would like to see us go back to Boston. As some remember, after Hockey East split off, the ECAC and Hockey East had combined finals at Boston Garden (HockeyFest 90). There was no consolation game, but rather both finals on Sat. One set of semis on Thursday, the other on Friday. The major problem that I saw was it was just too popular. We couldn't both have finals Sat. PM.

So what's wrong with semis on Thursday and finals Saturday afternoon. We could all watch Hockey East semis and finals if we wanted, and vice versa. I don't know about costs with the current Garden, but I'd certainly plan on going every year, regardless of CU in or not. I could also bring my family for a fun weekend. They can do something else if they don't want to see all the games. Sure the games on Thursday would be more difficult to swing, but if it's successful we might be able to alternate with Hockey East, although I doubt they'd agree to that.

I don't know about having both the Bruins and Celtics away for that long, but I can't imagine that couldn't be worked out.

Regardless of its problems, I can almost guarantee there would be a bigger crowd. It is a hockey town, with a lot of ECAC grads living there, and I think there would be a lot of enthusiasm. We'd certainly get more press than at AC.

I can always hope.

This would be amazing...but hockey east draws too well already. Without Maine or BU at the garden, they drew 14571 for the final and 16003 for the semi finals. Too many fans for both leagues would be shut out and thus there's little advantage to Hockey east

P.S. PArt of the reason for this is that they offer $10 tickets for students each night. What are the ECACs charging for students nowadays?

BigRedIslander '03

Jim Hyla

dragonday92
The business opportunity for the ecac aside, the tournamount should ultimately be played within the general boundaries of the conference. Atlantic City just isn't it. It's not accessible to most of the fans and its not the draw as a destination that fans either wanted or could afford.

Agee. I for one would like to see us go back to Boston. As some remember, after Hockey East split off, the ECAC and Hockey East had combined finals at Boston Garden (HockeyFest 90). There was no consolation game, but rather both finals on Sat. One set of semis on Thursday, the other on Friday. The major problem that I saw was it was just too popular. We couldn't both have finals Sat. PM.

So what's wrong with semis on Thursday and finals Saturday afternoon. We could all watch Hockey East semis and finals if we wanted, and vice versa. I don't know about costs with the current Garden, but I'd certainly plan on going every year, regardless of CU in or not. I could also bring my family for a fun weekend. They can do something else if they don't want to see all the games. Sure the games on Thursday would be more difficult to swing, but if it's successful we might be able to alternate with Hockey East, although I doubt they'd agree to that.

I don't know about having both the Bruins and Celtics away for that long, but I can't imagine that couldn't be worked out.

Regardless of its problems, I can almost guarantee there would be a bigger crowd. It is a hockey town, with a lot of ECAC grads living there, and I think there would be a lot of enthusiasm. We'd certainly get more press than at AC.

I can always hope.

This would be amazing...but hockey east draws too well already. Without Maine or BU at the garden, they drew 14571 for the final and 16003 for the semi finals. Too many fans for both leagues would be shut out and thus there's little advantage to Hockey east

P.S. PArt of the reason for this is that they offer $10 tickets for students each night. What are the ECACs charging for students nowadays?

Sorry that I wasn't more clear. My idea is to have separate semis for each league, one set Thursday, one set Friday. Then 2 different finals; with ECAC on Thursday, they would play an early game, say 1PM, Saturday; then Hockey East final Saturday night, maybe 7 or 8PM. There would be no consolations, unless you wanted to squeeze them in before their finals.

So, 6 games over 3 days, with separate crowds for each final. Thus we could accommodate each leagues crowds. Those of us who want to go to each final could leave our car parked, enjoy the city and have a nice meal.

Jim Hyla
Sorry that I wasn't more clear. My idea is to have separate semis for each league, one set Thursday, one set Friday. Then 2 different finals; with ECAC on Thursday, they would play an early game, say 1PM, Saturday; then Hockey East final Saturday night, maybe 7 or 8PM. There would be no consolations, unless you wanted to squeeze them in before their finals.

So, 6 games over 3 days, with separate crowds for each final. Thus we could accommodate each leagues crowds. Those of us who want to go to each final could leave our car parked, enjoy the city and have a nice meal.

That would be amazing...I'll hope with you. The only negative would be the ice conditions by Sat night.

What are you guys talking about???? It was all fabulous. I know, because I read it here.

[clear]

This is the ECAC. The blue line is the driving circumference of the ECAC schools on the league's perimeter: Start at Cornell, drive to Princeton, then Yale and Quinnipiac, onto Brown and Harvard, then up north to Dartmouth, St. Lawrence and Clarkson, and back to Ithaca. The purple lines are the boundaries if you were flying non-stop (with no layover in Pittsburgh or Charlotte), plus some lines connecting the outlier schools. It shows Lake Placid is just within the northern extreme of the ECAC schools, Albany is ground zero, and Atlantic City is outside the boundary. Note Atlantic City lies as far south as Baltimore and West Virginia, known for sports other than college hockey. As for Atlantic City: Nice try, ECAC. Didn't work.

TimV
What are you guys talking about???? It was all fabulous. I know, because I read it here.

"Much of the hockey was reminiscent of the kind played by the Atlantic City Boardwalk Bullies, a professional, minor-league hockey team that played at Boardwalk Hall from 2001-2005. There were hard hits and skaters zipping across the ice."

So that's what they were doing: zipping.

That's a great map -- says it all!

As a Boston resident, I would love to have the ECAC finals here! And I agree that if they teamed it up with HE, they'd have one hell of a show.

billhoward

dragonday92
[Atlantic City] is not accessible to most of the fans and it's not the draw as a destination that fans either wanted or could afford.

It's possible the ECAC in its mind transferred the popularity of the Frozen Four and its year-in-advance sellouts to the ECAC finals even though that was not the case in Albany (geographical center of the ECAC) or Lake Placid (a spiritual center for USA hockey).

If that's what the league is thinking, I think that they should give us nice welcome goody bags filled with whatever crack they're smoking when we show up for the games.

If they want to hold the tourny at some locale that just outside of the "boundries", I vote for DC or Philly. But then, DC had the squeakball tourny this weekend. Stupid squeakball.

Thanks Bill, if only the powers to be would read this thread.

Jim Hyla
Thanks Bill, if only the powers to be would read this thread.

Thanks, Jim. You know me: only in it for the good of the game and never wanting to stir up trouble. More seriously, I think the people at the ECAC *want* ECAC hockey to be successful. They have trouble figuring out how, and perhaps they put too much emphasis on finding a location that's delightful for all the ECAC coaches and assistants and athletic directors and referees to gather and who perhaps are getting reasonable prices on hotel rooms booked well in advance. And not enough emphasis on the distance from the center point of ECAC hockey, or the cost to students and young alumni saddled with loan payments. Everybody agrees Albany has the reputation of being a dreadful town to spend the weekend in but really, you probably drove in Friday during the day, so the only time you have to kill is from when you wake up and finish breakfast until game time.

You know, if the weather was the same 77 degrees Saturday it was Friday, it would have been nirvana enjoyed by the precious few. Imagine going to the title game suffering from sunburn and with sand in your sneakers.

The ECAC also has to work through other issues, such as concerns about the officiating and that pressbox verbal fistfight between a writer and the ECAC's head of officiating over the quality of the calls. A lot on their plates.

billhoward
It's possible the ECAC in its mind transferred the popularity of the Frozen Four and its year-in-advance sellouts to the ECAC finals even though that was not the case in Albany (geographical center of the ECAC) or Lake Placid (a spiritual center for USA hockey).

So... why would they "transfer" that, then?

Josh '99

billhoward
It's possible the ECAC in its mind transferred the popularity of the Frozen Four and its year-in-advance sellouts to the ECAC finals even though that was not the case in Albany (geographical center of the ECAC) or Lake Placid (a spiritual center for USA hockey).

So... why would they "transfer" that, then?

You ever been in a situation where you think, "Anything has to be better than this"? Albany attendance looked pretty sparse in a building with a hockey capacity of 14,750. Perhaps the ECAC figured the 5,000-7,500 it was drawing would transfer intact to the Jersey Shore. I'm trying to recall if Albany attendance figures in recent years were quoted as closer to 10,000 which would be counting people who bought a ticket and attended just one of the day's two games (that seems legit), or who bought but never attended.

billhoward

Josh '99

billhoward
It's possible the ECAC in its mind transferred the popularity of the Frozen Four and its year-in-advance sellouts to the ECAC finals even though that was not the case in Albany (geographical center of the ECAC) or Lake Placid (a spiritual center for USA hockey).

So... why would they "transfer" that, then?

You ever been in a situation where you think, "Anything has to be better than this"? Albany attendance looked pretty sparse in a building with a hockey capacity of 14,750. Perhaps the ECAC figured the 5,000-7,500 it was drawing would transfer intact to the Jersey Shore. I'm trying to recall if Albany attendance figures in recent years were quoted as closer to 10,000 which would be counting people who bought a ticket and attended just one of the day's two games (that seems legit), or who bought but never attended.

And the Frozen Four has to do with this thought process how?

I have no desire to be the undercard in Boston. Albany was fine.

billhoward

Josh '99

billhoward
It's possible the ECAC in its mind transferred the popularity of the Frozen Four and its year-in-advance sellouts to the ECAC finals even though that was not the case in Albany (geographical center of the ECAC) or Lake Placid (a spiritual center for USA hockey).

So... why would they "transfer" that, then?

You ever been in a situation where you think, "Anything has to be better than this"? Albany attendance looked pretty sparse in a building with a hockey capacity of 14,750. Perhaps the ECAC figured the 5,000-7,500 it was drawing would transfer intact to the Jersey Shore. I'm trying to recall if Albany attendance figures in recent years were quoted as closer to 10,000 which would be counting people who bought a ticket and attended just one of the day's two games (that seems legit), or who bought but never attended.

ECAC Championship Game attendance figures
2011: 4,126 (Yale, Cornell, Dartmouth, Colgate)
2010: 6,505 (Cornell, Union, Brown, St. Lawrence)
2009: 4,857 (Yale, Cornell, St. Lawrence, Princeton)
2008: 4,851 (Princeton, Harvard, Cornell, Colgate)
2007: 5,565 (Clarkson, Quinnipiac, St. Lawrence, Dartmouth)
2006: 7,093 (Harvard, Cornell, Dartmouth, Colgate)
2005: 8,637 (Cornell, Harvard, Colgate, Vermont)
2004: 6,489 (Harvard, Clarkson, Colgate, Dartmouth)
2003: 8,296 (Cornell, Harvard, Dartmouth, Brown)

2003-2010 attendance numbers from box scores at collegehockeystats.net. I checked the box scores from the consolation games of the last couple of years, and they either showed "0" or the same total as the final, so I am guessing those figures are number of tickets sold.

After driving 4 hours each way through delightful NYC area traffic, compared to a stress-free 2-hour drive to Albany, I vote for anywhere but Atlantic City. If I was a casino gambler, I might feel differently. But I'd rather spend my discretionary funds watching Cornell hockey instead of adding to Donald Trump's bank account.

Al DeFlorio

redice
But, if I'm going to a hockey game with 3499 other people, I'd rather be an a 4000 seat arena that seems nearly full (than a 10000 seat arena that seems like death valley).

You might feel differently if you were the 4001st person who wanted to see the game.

True that...But the 4001st fan seemed to be missing this year...Or was he/she disguised as an empty seat?

Could you imagine what the attendance would have been had a bad-travelling school like Brown been the fourth team instead of Yale? Wow, oh wow.

And FWIW, there were lines at the strip club across the street for Boardwalk Hall last night as I left the arena. Somebody was apparently enjoying their evening.

Plus I got to read a newspaper on the way home this morning (I was driving). There was an accident in the construction zone on the Blue Route that stopped traffic for an hour.

I really disliked Albany, but please, anyplace but Atlantic City!

[clear]

Matt, thanks for pulling together those numbers. I was looking for trends.

The obvious: It's going down over time. (2003 is the first year in Albany after the years in Lake Placid.)

Less obvious: The biggest falloffs year/year were:
-22% Cornell misses the 2004 tournament
-22% Cornell misses the 2007 tournament
-37% ECAC misses the point (of fan-based hockey venues) and moves to Atlantic City.
-18% [no obvious reason for 2006 - Cornell makes the final vs. Harvard]
-13% Cornell loses in the semifinals in 2008, perhaps Cornell fans abandon Albany a day early

The biggest increase, +34%, was Union making the ECAC final four in 2010 and to the title game, followed by +33%, Cornell making it back to the ECAC final four in 2005. So having a local team in the tournament get through to the final helps, especially when Cornell is the other title game opponent.

If Union shows signs of being an ongoing powerhouse, not just a 2-3 year blip of exellence, that would speak well to moving back to Albany.

judy

billhoward

dragonday92
[Atlantic City] is not accessible to most of the fans and it's not the draw as a destination that fans either wanted or could afford.

It's possible the ECAC in its mind transferred the popularity of the Frozen Four and its year-in-advance sellouts to the ECAC finals even though that was not the case in Albany (geographical center of the ECAC) or Lake Placid (a spiritual center for USA hockey).

If that's what the league is thinking, I think that they should give us nice welcome goody bags filled with whatever crack they're smoking when we show up for the games.

If they want to hold the tourny at some locale that just outside of the "boundries", I vote for DC or Philly. But then, DC had the squeakball tourny this weekend. Stupid squeakball.

Unfortunately DC is too far and the perfect stadium for this tourney in Philly, the Spectrum, is being torn down. The Wachovia (I mean Wells Fargo) Center, is just way too large for a tournament like this. How many does Penn's Class of '23 Ice Rink hold? That could work maybe?

css228

judy

billhoward

dragonday92
[Atlantic City] is not accessible to most of the fans and it's not the draw as a destination that fans either wanted or could afford.

It's possible the ECAC in its mind transferred the popularity of the Frozen Four and its year-in-advance sellouts to the ECAC finals even though that was not the case in Albany (geographical center of the ECAC) or Lake Placid (a spiritual center for USA hockey).

If that's what the league is thinking, I think that they should give us nice welcome goody bags filled with whatever crack they're smoking when we show up for the games.

If they want to hold the tourny at some locale that just outside of the "boundries", I vote for DC or Philly. But then, DC had the squeakball tourny this weekend. Stupid squeakball.

Unfortunately DC is too far and the perfect stadium for this tourney in Philly, the Spectrum, is being torn down. The Wachovia (I mean Wells Fargo) Center, is just way too large for a tournament like this. How many does Penn's Class of '23 Ice Rink hold? That could work maybe?

Well, I did say outside the boundries. Of course, I'm still waiting for the Alaska trip

Places with AHL/ECHL Rinks in or around perimeter and their capacities:

AHL:
Syracuse - 6,230
Binghamton - 6,800
Wilkes-Barre - 8,350
Worcester - 14,800
Springfield - 7,276
Providence - 11,940
Hartford - 15,635
Bridgeport - 9,000(?)
Glens Falls - 4,806 + ~1,000 SRO

ECHL:
Elmira - 3,784
Trenton - 8,100

Nope Penn's rink is way too small so Philly is out. Shame though because it is the perfect city otherwise... Anyone want to put a temporary rink in the Palestra?

judy
If that's what the league is thinking, I think that they should give us nice welcome goody bags filled with whatever crack they're smoking when we show up for the games.

If they want to hold the tourny at some locale that just outside of the "boundries", I vote for DC or Philly. But then, DC had the squeakball tourny this weekend. Stupid squeakball.

I don't think the league was thinking anything more than whatever deal was cut with AC.

Whether or not we liked Lake Placid we almost all hated Albany after the first trip, and it wound up growing on people as they got familiar with it and adapted their expectations to the venue (cons: made Iowa look exciting and Philly look pretty; pros: easy to get to for most fans and seemingly built around underage consumption of alcohol).

We'll know after a few years whether AC this year too new, too weird, or too far. I suspect it's the latter which won't be helped with time, but if attendance continues to be low we'll eventually move back to a more central location. Worcester and Hartford seem like OK choices among those they have never tried (not great for those of us traveling from afar, but we aren't and shouldn't be a priority).

Trotsky

judy
If that's what the league is thinking, I think that they should give us nice welcome goody bags filled with whatever crack they're smoking when we show up for the games.

If they want to hold the tourny at some locale that just outside of the "boundries", I vote for DC or Philly. But then, DC had the squeakball tourny this weekend. Stupid squeakball.

I don't think the league was thinking anything more than whatever deal was cut with AC.

Whether or not we liked Lake Placid we almost all hated Albany after the first trip, and it wound up growing on people as they got familiar with it and adapted their expectations to the venue (cons: made Iowa look exciting and Philly look pretty; pros: easy to get to for most fans and seemingly built around underage consumption of alcohol).

We'll know after a few years whether AC this year too new, too weird, or too far. I suspect it's the latter which won't be helped with time, but if attendance continues to be low we'll eventually move back to a more central location. Worcester and Hartford seem like OK choices among those they have never tried (not great for those of us traveling from afar, but we aren't and shouldn't be a priority).

nk like
a
Philly is pretty, unless youre only talking about the sports complex.I'm very biased though. What about a place like Rochester?

css228
Philly is pretty, unless youre only talking about the sports complex.I'm very biased though. What about a place like Rochester?

Much as I'd love for the ECACs to be held a half-mile from my house, Rochester 1) is West of the entire league and 2) has been hosting the Atlantic Hockey finals every year for a while now.

jtwcornell91

css228
Philly is pretty, unless youre only talking about the sports complex.I'm very biased though. What about a place like Rochester?

Much as I'd love for the ECACs to be held a half-mile from my house, Rochester 1) is West of the entire league and 2) has been hosting the Atlantic Hockey finals every year for a while now.

Good point. Didn't think about those. I'd love Philly because I'm home and its the weekend of Spring Break, but the tournament just can't fill the Wells Fargo Center. Especially when we're the only team in the final four with an enrollment over 6,000

On a personal level, I thought the location was great. Strolling the boardwalk before and after the games beats anything that Albany has to offer. Got some great deals at the outlets. Additionally, the $2-4 game at Bally's was incredibly soft. I really liked the venue as well...Boardwalk Hall has character, and they've done a nice job keeping the facility current.

That said, it's pretty obvious it isn't in the best interest in the league to have the tournament there. Let's go back to Albany.

Jordan 04
On a personal level, I thought the location was great. Strolling the boardwalk before and after the games beats anything that Albany has to offer. Got some great deals at the outlets. Additionally, the $2-4 game at Bally's was incredibly soft. I really liked the venue as well...Boardwalk Hall has character, and they've done a nice job keeping the facility current.

That said, it's pretty obvious it isn't in the best interest in the league to have the tournament there. Let's go back to Albany.

Seems to me, based on Jordan's assessment, AC wouldn't be such a bad spot for something like the season opening tournament they hold in Albany. Of course that's played among NY teams for the governor's cup so it can't really be held in Jersey...

If they held an October tournament there, where the weather was likely to be warm and the teams and fans knew they'd be there months in advance and could plan accordingly, it probably wouldn't be such a bad thing. Of course, if it's October, Cornell wouldn't be playing there. On short notice, in March, it's a different animal. Especially if you are a fan that is projecting out the potential cost of NCAA action in the weeks ahead.

Now if the Ivies ever went to basketball tournament (which I think, unfortunately, is a when not if proposition), I could see AC being attractive to the league given the proximity to the P's. Of course, that would conflict with the A-10 tournament in all likelihood.

Chris '03
Seems to me, based on Jordan's assessment, AC wouldn't be such a bad spot for something like the season opening tournament they hold in Albany. Of course that's played among NY teams for the governor's cup so it can't really be held in Jersey...

Actually, why not?
New York Giants
New York Jets
Meadowlands, NJ

redice

Al DeFlorio

redice
But, if I'm going to a hockey game with 3499 other people, I'd rather be an a 4000 seat arena that seems nearly full (than a 10000 seat arena that seems like death valley).

You might feel differently if you were the 4001st person who wanted to see the game.

True that...But the 4001st fan seemed to be missing this year...Or was he/she disguised as an empty seat?

Pointless snippy retort. Sigh.

Al DeFlorio

redice

Al DeFlorio

redice
But, if I'm going to a hockey game with 3499 other people, I'd rather be an a 4000 seat arena that seems nearly full (than a 10000 seat arena that seems like death valley).

You might feel differently if you were the 4001st person who wanted to see the game.

True that...But the 4001st fan seemed to be missing this year...Or was he/she disguised as an empty seat?

Pointless snippy retort. Sigh.

Are you describing redice's reply or your own?

Chris '03

Al DeFlorio

redice

Al DeFlorio

redice
But, if I'm going to a hockey game with 3499 other people, I'd rather be an a 4000 seat arena that seems nearly full (than a 10000 seat arena that seems like death valley).

You might feel differently if you were the 4001st person who wanted to see the game.

True that...But the 4001st fan seemed to be missing this year...Or was he/she disguised as an empty seat?

Pointless snippy retort. Sigh.

Are you describing redice's reply or your own?

And another pointless, snippy one. If you don't understand the point about a rink with only 4000 seats being a potential problem, I really have to wonder.

Chris '03

Jordan 04
On a personal level, I thought the location was great. Strolling the boardwalk before and after the games beats anything that Albany has to offer. Got some great deals at the outlets. Additionally, the $2-4 game at Bally's was incredibly soft. I really liked the venue as well...Boardwalk Hall has character, and they've done a nice job keeping the facility current.

That said, it's pretty obvious it isn't in the best interest in the league to have the tournament there. Let's go back to Albany.

Seems to me, based on Jordan's assessment, AC wouldn't be such a bad spot for something like the season opening tournament they hold in Albany. Of course that's played among NY teams for the governor's cup so it can't really be held in Jersey...

The Governor's cup is was abolished or suspended. The Governor was usually too busy doing other things -like taking excursions to other venues for more important events The Important Trip.

One of the NY teams wasn't eligible to participate which led to very mediocre attendance. Seems unfair that belonging to two leagues means you play fewer games than if you belong to only one.

This tournament was included in the RIP season tickets and as such we paid for it whether we wanted to go or not. (I did - my wife, not.) I don't even remember if they held it for two years or three.

I'm new to this forum but an alum and longtime fan. The AC attendance left me puzzled and was really depressing after a week of watching full-house hoops games. The players deserved better. I'm from Philly and so it was easy for me to get there, as it was for my Philly and NY classmates who met us there -- but looking at this thread, people make it seem like AC is near Atlanta. I remember road tripping to Boston for hockey playoffs and to lots of other places for other reasons -- is AC just too far for students nowadays? It may be grimy but is Albany really more fun?

Keep in mind that Albany was roughly on the way home for a lot of Cornell students. If you lived in New England, capital district, downstate, Jersey, then it wasn't unreasonable to stop in Albany on your way to or from spring break. It was also easier to find places to stay, since hotels weren't as expensive and there were plenty of colleges in the area where you might have friends. At 2.5 hours each way, it was possible to make the round trip in one day.

Overall, I know that Cornell's fan base has dropped off since the first part of last decade. I remember filling sections in both the lower and upper levels at the then-Pepsi Arena. I'm not sure what the dream scenario is for filling Boardwalk Hall. Unless Cornell heads into AC like 25-5-2 next year and gains more of a following, I think we may have seen the maximum number of Cornell fans. Schools like Clarkson that could send a large contingent are simply too far away for that to seem likely.

provgame79
I'm new to this forum but an alum and longtime fan. The AC attendance left me puzzled and was really depressing after a week of watching full-house hoops games. The players deserved better. I'm from Philly and so it was easy for me to get there, as it was for my Philly and NY classmates who met us there -- but looking at this thread, people make it seem like AC is near Atlanta. I remember road tripping to Boston for hockey playoffs and to lots of other places for other reasons -- is AC just too far for students nowadays? It may be grimy but is Albany really more fun?

Well when you can't leave Ithaca any way by bus, and your bus doesn't get back to Philly on that Friday night until 7:30 then yes. Yes it is. Then Saturday was my anniversary with my girlfriend so while I was able to convince her to watch the game, a trip to AC just wasn't in the cards. Oh, well there's always next year!

Jordan 04
On a personal level, I thought the location was great. Strolling the boardwalk before and after the games beats anything that Albany has to offer.

I loved the rink itself -- it's gorgeous and interesting in a way none of the cookie-cutter Pepsi Center type places will ever be. It was also nice to not have a division between upper and lower. All that was great.

Strolling the boardwalk was a lot of fun -- the people watching (or New Jerseyite watching anyway) was highly entertaining. But we also had the best weather possible. If we had had a weekend of rain, being stuck with nothing to do but watch the zombies in the casinos would be like having the game at Rikers.

Well, the ECAC and AC are spinning it as a success.

[www.pressofatlanticcity.com]

----
"It's been a great experience," ECAC commissioner Steve Hagwell said. "This building has something special to it. People who I have spoken to have said the same thing. This building has a great feel."

..

The ECAC tournament averaged 3,742 fans at Boardwalk Hall (seating capacity about 10,300 for hockey) with 4,126 for the championship game.

..

"Obviously, we would like a bigger crowd," Boardwalk Hall general manager Greg Tesone said. "But I think the building performed well and the people that came down here had a great time. For the people, I think the city was more than what they expected."

In speculating about possible future sites (assuming AC attendance doesn't pick-up the next couple of years), I'm surprised that no one seems to mention the IZOD Center at the Meadowlands. It certainly has more availability than many other sites given that the Devils and the Nets have departed; and, while it has little charm, it is more accessible to the majority of the ECAC fan base than is AC.

pfibiger
Well, the ECAC and AC are spinning it as a success.

[www.pressofatlanticcity.com]

----
"It's been a great experience," ECAC commissioner Steve Hagwell said. "This building has something special to it. People who I have spoken to have said the same thing. This building has a great feel."

..

The ECAC tournament averaged 3,742 fans at Boardwalk Hall (seating capacity about 10,300 for hockey) with 4,126 for the championship game.

..

"Obviously, we would like a bigger crowd," Boardwalk Hall general manager Greg Tesone said. "But I think the building performed well and the people that came down here had a great time. For the people, I think the city was more than what they expected."

I like this one:

The ECAC tournament averaged 3,742 fans at Boardwalk Hall (seating capacity about 10,300 for hockey) with 4,126 for the championship game.

Albany, N.Y., hosted the tournament the previous eight seasons. The tournament averaged 6,505 last year, after it already had been announced that the tournament was moving to Atlantic City. Attendance averaged 5,074 in 2009.

billhoward

[clear]

This map is great. Thank you for posting it.

Trotsky

Jordan 04
On a personal level, I thought the location was great. Strolling the boardwalk before and after the games beats anything that Albany has to offer.

I loved the rink itself -- it's gorgeous and interesting in a way none of the cookie-cutter Pepsi Center type places will ever be. It was also nice to not have a division between upper and lower. All that was great.

Strolling the boardwalk was a lot of fun -- the people watching (or New Jerseyite watching anyway) was highly entertaining. But we also had the best weather possible. If we had had a weekend of rain, being stuck with nothing to do but watch the zombies in the casinos would be like having the game at Rikers.

Well, the potential effect of bad weather is a red herring; that's an issue at nearly any potential location, save perhaps Boston. Albany, Lake Placid, Hartford, Worcester, Meadowlands, Bridgeport, etc...which of these are you thoroughly enjoying in 40 degrees and rain?

The only issue with AC, as I see it, is the one Bill so clearly mapped out.

Jordan 04
The only issue with AC, as I see it, is the one Bill so clearly mapped out.

Agreed. If AC were scooped up Borg-style and plopped down in the middle of the Berkshires, it would be acceptable, slums and all. Albany's best feature is that it is 2½ hours from Boston and no more than 3 hours from the furthest school in the ECAC.

Trotsky
We'll know after a few years whether AC this year too new, too weird, or too far. I suspect it's the latter which won't be helped with time, but if attendance continues to be low we'll eventually move back to a more central location. Worcester and Hartford seem like OK choices among those they have never tried (not great for those of us traveling from afar, but we aren't and shouldn't be a priority).

Hartford wouldn't be so bad if the league decided they wanted to move back north after the expiration of the AC deal (which seems likely at the moment) but didn't want to lose face by moving right back to Albany.

Jordan 04

Trotsky

Jordan 04
On a personal level, I thought the location was great. Strolling the boardwalk before and after the games beats anything that Albany has to offer.

I loved the rink itself -- it's gorgeous and interesting in a way none of the cookie-cutter Pepsi Center type places will ever be. It was also nice to not have a division between upper and lower. All that was great.

Strolling the boardwalk was a lot of fun -- the people watching (or New Jerseyite watching anyway) was highly entertaining. But we also had the best weather possible. If we had had a weekend of rain, being stuck with nothing to do but watch the zombies in the casinos would be like having the game at Rikers.

Well, the potential effect of bad weather is a red herring; that's an issue at nearly any potential location, save perhaps Boston. Albany, Lake Placid, Hartford, Worcester, Meadowlands, Bridgeport, etc...which of these are you thoroughly enjoying in 40 degrees and rain?

I would argue bad weather would have a significantly greater impact in AC. First, there's no outdoor attraction in the other places comparable to their boardwalk. Second, the indoor activities in AC looked remarkably scummy (gambling, strip clubs, pawn shops -- pick any two).

Trotsky

Jordan 04

Trotsky

Jordan 04
On a personal level, I thought the location was great. Strolling the boardwalk before and after the games beats anything that Albany has to offer.

I loved the rink itself -- it's gorgeous and interesting in a way none of the cookie-cutter Pepsi Center type places will ever be. It was also nice to not have a division between upper and lower. All that was great.

Strolling the boardwalk was a lot of fun -- the people watching (or New Jerseyite watching anyway) was highly entertaining. But we also had the best weather possible. If we had had a weekend of rain, being stuck with nothing to do but watch the zombies in the casinos would be like having the game at Rikers.

Well, the potential effect of bad weather is a red herring; that's an issue at nearly any potential location, save perhaps Boston. Albany, Lake Placid, Hartford, Worcester, Meadowlands, Bridgeport, etc...which of these are you thoroughly enjoying in 40 degrees and rain?

I would argue bad weather would have a significantly greater impact in AC. First, there's no outdoor attraction in the other places comparable to their boardwalk. Second, the indoor activities in AC looked remarkably scummy (gambling, strip clubs, pawn shops -- pick any two).

And what are all the great indoor activities to which visitors in Hartford, Albany, Worcester, Bridgeport, and Lake Placid will flock? To say that AC simply offers strip clubs and pawn shops just shows a flippant unwillingness to even try and give the place a chance.

A quick 2 minute search reveals the Pier Shops, the Walk (which can be doable as long as it's not a driving rainstorm), an IMAX theater @ Tropicana, an aquarium, a maritime museum ~ 30 minutes away, and a Ripley's (not what I consider much of an attraction, but possibly good for kids?). And while I know gambling can be a polarizing topic, there are plenty of people who find it an entertaining indoor activity. If the Boardwalk options are too scummy, the Borgata may better suit one's tastes.

My guess is that these indoor options stack up fairly well against any of the contenders mentioned in the thread; again, Boston excepted.

Trotsky

billhoward

[clear]

This map is great. Thank you for posting it.

I think this map says it all.

Jordan 04


And what are all the great indoor activities to which visitors in Hartford, Albany, Worcester, Bridgeport, and Lake Placid will flock? To say that AC simply offers strip clubs and pawn shops just shows a flippant unwillingness to even try and give the place a chance.

Paging RichH, paging RichH.

Jeff Hopkins '82
Could you imagine what the attendance would have been had a bad-travelling school like Brown been the fourth team instead of Yale? Wow, oh wow.

In fairness to Brown (never thought I'd say THAT), if their teams was switched with Yale's then they'd probably have comparable traveling fan bases.

Ronald '09
Bridgeport - 9,000(?)

8500 for hockey.

Trotsky
I would argue bad weather would have a significantly greater impact in AC. First, there's no outdoor attraction in the other places comparable to their boardwalk. Second, the indoor activities in AC looked remarkably scummy (gambling, strip clubs, pawn shops -- pick any two).

Friday, upper 70s and gorgeous beach weather in Atlantic City. This morning, a half-inch of slushy snow is on the boardwalk.

Josh '99

Ronald '09
Bridgeport - 9,000(?)

8500 for hockey.

Thanks. My source was wikipedia, and for all the other rinks it had a specific ice hockey capacity, but for that one just "sports."

Jordan 04

Trotsky

Jordan 04

Trotsky

Jordan 04
On a personal level, I thought the location was great. Strolling the boardwalk before and after the games beats anything that Albany has to offer.

I loved the rink itself -- it's gorgeous and interesting in a way none of the cookie-cutter Pepsi Center type places will ever be. It was also nice to not have a division between upper and lower. All that was great.

Strolling the boardwalk was a lot of fun -- the people watching (or New Jerseyite watching anyway) was highly entertaining. But we also had the best weather possible. If we had had a weekend of rain, being stuck with nothing to do but watch the zombies in the casinos would be like having the game at Rikers.

Well, the potential effect of bad weather is a red herring; that's an issue at nearly any potential location, save perhaps Boston. Albany, Lake Placid, Hartford, Worcester, Meadowlands, Bridgeport, etc...which of these are you thoroughly enjoying in 40 degrees and rain?

I would argue bad weather would have a significantly greater impact in AC. First, there's no outdoor attraction in the other places comparable to their boardwalk. Second, the indoor activities in AC looked remarkably scummy (gambling, strip clubs, pawn shops -- pick any two).

And what are all the great indoor activities to which visitors in Hartford, Albany, Worcester, Bridgeport, and Lake Placid will flock? To say that AC simply offers strip clubs and pawn shops just shows a flippant unwillingness to even try and give the place a chance.

I think Jordan is correct on this point. If you're in any of those cities and the weather is crappy, your options are basically "get to the rink really early" or "go see a movie" or "sit in a bar or a restaurant with friends and while away the afternoon" (and that last one is something we typically did in Albany even when the weather was nice, realistically speaking), all of which you could do in Atlantic City.

It's also worth noting that Lake Placid, which many of us (though of course not all) enjoyed as a site for the tournament, was especially susceptible to weather issues.

scoop85
In speculating about possible future sites (assuming AC attendance doesn't pick-up the next couple of years), I'm surprised that no one seems to mention the IZOD Center at the Meadowlands. It certainly has more availability than many other sites given that the Devils and the Nets have departed; and, while it has little charm, it is more accessible to the majority of the ECAC fan base than is AC.

Aside from my issues with that building itself (there's just nothing around it), even a good ECAC tournament crowd would look bad in a 19,000 seat building.

Jordan 04

Trotsky

Jordan 04

Trotsky

Jordan 04
On a personal level, I thought the location was great. Strolling the boardwalk before and after the games beats anything that Albany has to offer.

I loved the rink itself -- it's gorgeous and interesting in a way none of the cookie-cutter Pepsi Center type places will ever be. It was also nice to not have a division between upper and lower. All that was great.

Strolling the boardwalk was a lot of fun -- the people watching (or New Jerseyite watching anyway) was highly entertaining. But we also had the best weather possible. If we had had a weekend of rain, being stuck with nothing to do but watch the zombies in the casinos would be like having the game at Rikers.

Well, the potential effect of bad weather is a red herring; that's an issue at nearly any potential location, save perhaps Boston. Albany, Lake Placid, Hartford, Worcester, Meadowlands, Bridgeport, etc...which of these are you thoroughly enjoying in 40 degrees and rain?

I would argue bad weather would have a significantly greater impact in AC. First, there's no outdoor attraction in the other places comparable to their boardwalk. Second, the indoor activities in AC looked remarkably scummy (gambling, strip clubs, pawn shops -- pick any two).

And what are all the great indoor activities to which visitors in Hartford, Albany, Worcester, Bridgeport, and Lake Placid will flock? To say that AC simply offers strip clubs and pawn shops just shows a flippant unwillingness to even try and give the place a chance.

I'm one of the people here saying to give AC a chance. The idea of having the tourney be an "event" is one the conference has played with for a while and I think it's worthwhile. The rink is beautiful and on sunny days the boardwalk's fun. If it's a hole, people can and will still find a way to have fun. But that doesn't mean it's not a hole.

I don't know. The more I look at it, the more I see pentagrams. I've always suspected that Bill might be possessed. Now I think he may be trying to turn the rest of us. But do keep posting all those great photos, Bill.

Killer
I don't know. The more I look at it, the more I see pentagrams. I've always suspected that Bill might be possessed. Now I think he may be trying to turn the rest of us. But do keep posting all those great photos, Bill.

There are 12 ECAC schools and most of them are in groups of 2 (Clarkson/St Lawrence, Cornell/Colgate, etc.). If I connected all the pairs to the other pairs, you'd approximate a Star of David.

Speaking of Killer's original suspicion, one of all-time worst puns:
Q: What happens when you don't pay the exorcist?
A: You get repossessed.

Really too bad that the Glens Falls Civic Center isn't a little bigger. Greater Glens Falls (including Lake George) would seem to afford many of the advantages of Lake Placid (nice location, "taking over the town," perhaps flexible bar admissions, not a hole) in a more accessible location. It's also pretty much equidistant (driving-time-wise) from the ECAC's sometime "holy trinity"—Cornell, Clarkson, and Harvard.

Since the Divorce
=================
#F4  Team
-----------------
18   Cornell
17   Harvard
16   Clarkson
11   SLU
11   RPI
 8   Colgate
 6   Dartmouth
 6   Princeton
 5   Yale
 4   Brown
[4   Vermont]
 1   Union
 1   Quinnipiac

To me, those top six teams speak to the wisdom of siting the tournament further west than one might otherwise think, i.e., I think Providence is a nice idea but a bit far. Oh, and count me among those who thought Albany wasn't that bad and wish that we would go back there. Atlantic City? Liked the rink (except for the ice and crappy concessions), disliked the town for tournament purposes (except for the smell of salt air). (I like gambling away my meager funds as much as the next guy, but I don't really think gambling mixes well with the ECACs.) But attendance tells the tale in the end.

If only we could disassemble Boardwalk Hall, implode the Times Union Center, and then reassemble Boardwalk Hall in Albany.

Scersk '97
If only we could disassemble Boardwalk Hall, implode the Times Union Center, and then reassemble Boardwalk Hall in Albany.

Drift: For those who shopped New England public universities, the thought applies similarly in taking the fabulous UConn Storrs compus in the middle of nowhere and dropping it atop all the 1970s poured concrete of the UMass Amherst location. *That* would be a public college with no shortage of applicants.

Maybe Atlantic City needs an 18,000 not 12,000 seat hall so it could host big time hoops. Plus they could use the existing ice surface to warm the building.

Scersk '97
Really too bad that the Glens Falls Civic Center isn't a little bigger. Greater Glens Falls (including Lake George) would seem to afford many of the advantages of Lake Placid (nice location, "taking over the town," perhaps flexible bar admissions, not a hole) in a more accessible location. It's also pretty much equidistant (driving-time-wise) from the ECAC's sometime "holy trinity"—Cornell, Clarkson, and Harvard.

Since the Divorce
=================
#F4  Team
-----------------
18   Cornell
17   Harvard
16   Clarkson
11   SLU
11   RPI
 8   Colgate
 6   Dartmouth
 6   Princeton
 5   Yale
 4   Brown
[4   Vermont]
 1   Union
 1   Quinnipiac

To me, those top six teams speak to the wisdom of siting the tournament further west than one might otherwise think, i.e., I think Providence is a nice idea but a bit far.

To me, they demonstrate that moving the tournament back to Boston makes no sense (other than in a hypothetical universe where the ECAC and Hockey East got remarried). Union's deficiencies notwithstanding, it's a league that's concentrated in upstate New York, not in New England, and even more so if you're talking about fan base size than if you're talking about historical performance.

Josh '99

Scersk '97
Really too bad that the Glens Falls Civic Center isn't a little bigger. Greater Glens Falls (including Lake George) would seem to afford many of the advantages of Lake Placid (nice location, "taking over the town," perhaps flexible bar admissions, not a hole) in a more accessible location. It's also pretty much equidistant (driving-time-wise) from the ECAC's sometime "holy trinity"—Cornell, Clarkson, and Harvard.

Since the Divorce
=================
#F4  Team
-----------------
18   Cornell
17   Harvard
16   Clarkson
11   SLU
11   RPI
 8   Colgate
 6   Dartmouth
 6   Princeton
 5   Yale
 4   Brown
[4   Vermont]
 1   Union
 1   Quinnipiac

To me, those top six teams speak to the wisdom of siting the tournament further west than one might otherwise think, i.e., I think Providence is a nice idea but a bit far.

To me, they demonstrate that moving the tournament back to Boston makes no sense (other than in a hypothetical universe where the ECAC and Hockey East got remarried). Union's deficiencies notwithstanding, it's a league that's concentrated in upstate New York, not in New England, and even more so if you're talking about fan base size than if you're talking about historical performance.

Back in the old days, there never was any problem getting fans from NY ECAC schools to go to Boston. Clarkson, SLU fans regularly traveled there. The distance is not a problem if there is something worth driving for. Boston is a hockey town and the buzz, newspaper coverage, etc. would just be much greater. Look at the local attendance for the Harvard game, those fans would go to the playoffs. If you are bringing your spouse and family there is so much more for them to do.

But most important is just the excitement that you feel when you are going to a place that appreciates what is happening. Driving the Thruway and Mass Pike and having cars with not only Cornell, but Clarkson and other schools, honk at you as you pass them. Getting to the Garden and buying a paper to see what they are writing about your team. LP had some of that, but no where near what Boston would do, even if it's a Hockey East town. You know "Logistics", well Boston has it for hockey.

I really can't stress enough how much of an after thought the ECAC is in Boston. It's not even AAA -- think short season single A. That is a bad place to go if the conference ever wants to reestablish itself as a peer of the "big three."

I'm with Jim on this discussion.

Going to Boston always seemed like a reward for a great season...There was excitement in getting ready and making the long trip there....Yes, it was long..But, the destination made it worth the trip..We made it to almost every Boston ECAC tourney that included Cornell.

Albany? Well, it was nice because it was closer....We went every year that it was in Albany...We always enjoyed the trip..But, there was seldom any air of excitement over the prospects of a trip to Albany. But, it was an easy trip and that made it okay with me.

LP? Never went there for the ECAC tourney...It held absolutely no appeal to me or my family...I resented the policy of the lodging establishments that would not allow cancellations within one week of the event...I guess they were not interested in fans who only wished to attend after their school had qualified...Good for their bottom line; bad for customer-service.

AC? Didn't go this year...Probably will go in some future years. But, only if Cornell is there. I don't consider this to be an acceptable or logical site for the tourney. I'm hoping that they move to a better location after the 3-yr contract expires.

What's with the ECACHL people having such a knack for picking lousy sites. If that's the best they can do, they ought start moving the tourney around each year...That way, they'll consistently please some of the people some of the time....Reality? I expect they're not too concerned with pleasing fans. Their history seems to be one of answering to someone else....No logic to it...

I'll say this ... it's not 1970 anymore. It's not even 1990 anymore. A tournament in Boston would work as poorly as anywhere else, I'm completely convinced.

First ... ECAC programs are just not on a par -- in general -- with Hockey East programs anymore. In 1990 -- the last year an ECAC team made the finals -- they were. So no one in Boston is going to be that interested going to see "lower level" hockey. They can just save their money and buy the Hockey East and Regional tickets. That's just the way it is.

Second ... fan bases in general for all ECAC schools are much smaller than other schools. The undergrad sizes are much smaller, and therefore the amount of grads are smaller. This is just the nature of the beast, and thus, there is only so much they can do.

Third ... I don't believe people from Potsdam, for example, would be passionate enough to drive to Boston anymore ... or much of anywhere else for that matter. Things have changed all over. And it's not just because the team isn't great currently. Even Cornell's fan base, though still relatively great, is not as passionate anymore. Reasons for this could be debated forever.

Fourth ... the only way to get Yale fans to show up in great numbers, apparently, is to have the tournament at Ingalls Rink. Great atmosphere there, but they don't travel anywhere. Let's hope they at least travel the 20 miles to Bridgeport.

Fifth ... I'm not defending AC - but there really is no good solution for the ECAC. Anyone who believes there is one great answer out there, is dreaming. This is the dilemma which the ECAC faces. This is why they tried AC. I agree with Greg on its charms, but I agree with others on its problems. I'd rather have it somewhere else -- a place that is simply a nice, modern hockey arena (like Bridgeport) -- not an old dump of any kind.

Sixth ... No one loves Lake Placid more than me. If they played in front of crickets, it would still be worth it -- except for one thing: the Olympic-size ice sheet. It doesn't help in prep for the NCAA Tournament, and coaches don't want it. If there was some way to rectify that, at least temporarily, it would be great.

Great points, Jim, thanks. Sports attendance skews toward big events: Super Bowl and weekly NFL games; NCAA final weekend for basketball, hockey, wrestling. The Kentucky Derby thrives while the rest of horse racing fades. The ECACs and the NCAA hockey regionals (equal to college hoops' sweet sixteen) aren't drawing well. The 10-year attendance trend for the ECAC championship week is steadily downward (see chart) with the two up blips being Cornell's return after a year's absence and last year in Albany when a local team (Union) finally made it.

Yes, going to Boston for the ECACs was a special time because it was the hub of college hockey and because it was the college hub of America. Who couldn't want to go there? I remember for a couple years we printed a "CU in Boston" bumper sticker you could clip out of the Cornell Daily Sun and paste in your back window and you'd see on the NYS Thruway and Mass Pike with those stickers and honk and wave frantically. Now there's probably an app for that. But you can't go back. Boston is now the Hockey East town and Albany for better or more likely worse is the hub of ECAC hockey since six of the 12 teams are in NY State and for three more, Yale, Quinnipiac, and Darmouth, it's only 15-20 miles closer to Boston than Albany. The ECAC crawling back to Boston is tantamount to saying we're a second-class league.

Speaking of all this, I know it was spring break, but did Cornell student attendance in Atlantic City seem light compared to alumni?

I don't see what is so bad about Albany. The first year it was there, the league went out of their way to make it feel like a festive atmosphere, blocking off the road in front of the Knick, bringing in street vendors, etc. I remember it was a great time! As the years went by, there was less and less of that, which to me says they weren't putting in enough effort. If the league wants to make the event a success, they need to put in more effort at making it a festival atmosphere.

I mean, what the fuck else is going on in Albany on the weekend? Nothing! The place clears out at 4pm on Fridays because it's the seat of NY state government and the government shuts down for the weekend. Rather than looking at this as a downside, take advantage of the vacuum for local businesses like my buddy's metal festival (ProgPowerUSA) does for the otherwise-dead midtown Atlanta area every September. Make agreements with local venues and vendors to provide stuff to do during the day. Get Jillians to put together some deals for watching hoops, or shooting pool, or playing video games. Tell Albany Pump Station in advance that there will be a bunch of beer-guzzling, red-clad meatheads coming to town in search of decent beer. Bring some interesting music to the Cajun joint. Organize some outdoor event on the Hudson waterfront park. Put together an amateur hockey tournament to take place at the TUC during the day before the games. (That would be awesome! I would totally do that.) (Edit follows.) Get one of the hotels in the area to be the "official" tournament hotel, block off the *entire thing* a year in advance for ECAC attendees only at low rates, and make the place party central.

This kind of weekend sounds so fun that, even if Cornell didn't make it, I would be inclined to go anyway!

If you're not willing to subject the fans to the expense of NYC for fear of reducing turnout even further, the best of the remaining bad choices is Albany. Under that circumstance, make lemonade!

What if they held the ECAC tournament over a series of a few weeks, 7 minutes at a time, between periods at Bruins games?

Kyle Rose
I don't see what is so bad about Albany. The first year it was there, the league went out of their way to make it feel like a festive atmosphere, blocking off the road in front of the Knick, bringing in street vendors, etc. I remember it was a great time! As the years went by, there was less and less of that, which to me says they weren't putting in enough effort. If the league wants to make the event a success, they need to put in more effort at making it a festival atmosphere.

I mean, what the fuck else is going on in Albany on the weekend? Nothing! The place clears out at 4pm on Fridays because it's the seat of NY state government and the government shuts down for the weekend. Rather than looking at this as a downside, take advantage of the vacuum for local businesses like my buddy's metal festival (ProgPowerUSA) does for the otherwise-dead midtown Atlanta area every September. Make agreements with local venues and vendors to provide stuff to do during the day. Get Jillians to put together some deals for watching hoops, or shooting pool, or playing video games. Tell Albany Pump Station in advance that there will be a bunch of beer-guzzling, red-clad meatheads coming to town in search of decent beer. Bring some interesting music to the Cajun joint. Organize some outdoor event on the Hudson waterfront park. Put together an amateur hockey tournament to take place at the TUC during the day before the games. (That would be awesome! I would totally do that.)

If you're not willing to subject the fans to the expense of NYC for fear of reducing turnout even further, the best of the remaining bad choices is Albany. Under that circumstance, make lemonade!

I also liked Albany. I remember in '03 and '05 there was a lot going on right near the game, and they had a huge banner across the street. However, I also remember how lame it was in '09 when all they did was put a couple of kids games inside the building.
The main thing about Albany that I liked was that we had lots of fans everywhere you went, and even though there wasn't much to do it was still a fun weekend.

adamw
I'll say this ... it's not 1970 anymore. It's not even 1990 anymore. A tournament in Boston would work as poorly as anywhere else, I'm completely convinced.

First ... ECAC programs are just not on a par -- in general -- with Hockey East programs anymore. In 1990 -- the last year an ECAC team made the finals -- they were. So no one in Boston is going to be that interested going to see "lower level" hockey. They can just save their money and buy the Hockey East and Regional tickets. That's just the way it is.

Second ... fan bases in general for all ECAC schools are much smaller than other schools. The undergrad sizes are much smaller, and therefore the amount of grads are smaller. This is just the nature of the beast, and thus, there is only so much they can do.

Third ... I don't believe people from Potsdam, for example, would be passionate enough to drive to Boston anymore ... or much of anywhere else for that matter. Things have changed all over. And it's not just because the team isn't great currently. Even Cornell's fan base, though still relatively great, is not as passionate anymore. Reasons for this could be debated forever.

Fourth ... the only way to get Yale fans to show up in great numbers, apparently, is to have the tournament at Ingalls Rink. Great atmosphere there, but they don't travel anywhere. Let's hope they at least travel the 20 miles to Bridgeport.

Fifth ... I'm not defending AC - but there really is no good solution for the ECAC. Anyone who believes there is one great answer out there, is dreaming. This is the dilemma which the ECAC faces. This is why they tried AC. I agree with Greg on its charms, but I agree with others on its problems. I'd rather have it somewhere else -- a place that is simply a nice, modern hockey arena (like Bridgeport) -- not an old dump of any kind.

Sixth ... No one loves Lake Placid more than me. If they played in front of crickets, it would still be worth it -- except for one thing: the Olympic-size ice sheet. It doesn't help in prep for the NCAA Tournament, and coaches don't want it. If there was some way to rectify that, at least temporarily, it would be great.

Surprise, I know it's not 1990 anymore, I probably know it more than most. So you know it's not going to work there more than anywhere else?

I'm not looking for HE fans to come. I'm looking for good place for us travelers to go to, and where some local grads would come out to see it. I don't expect to fill the Garden.

If Potsdam fans aren't willing to travel it doesn't matter where you have it, and that doesn't make Boston any worse than anywhere else.

I don't really care about Yale fans, but I bet we'd get more in Boston than AC.

So don't defend AC. If there's no good solution, again that doesn't make Boston a bad solution.

I disliked LP, mainly for the reasons Greg (I think) stated. I don't want to pay for a hotel if I won't use it. And who cares we're not going back there anyway.

So, you don't think Boston would work, but all your points, except HE, apply to all venues, not just Boston. As I said, if Boston is no worse, we ought to at least think about it. Maybe it would be as bad as AC, but I doubt it.

Jim Hyla
I disliked LP, mainly for the reasons Greg (I think) stated. I don't want to pay for a hotel if I won't use it. And who cares we're not going back there anyway.

Wasn't me, the LP CoC is paying me to lobby for them.

There was a post on the USCHO thread with this same topic that LP had a strong offer this last round of bids -- no idea whether the post was credible.

What it appears to all boil down to is: Albany's central location and their relative lack of ineptitude makes them the baseline choice absent some more compelling argument (like, say, having a soul and preferring LP).

Kyle Rose
I don't see what is so bad about Albany. The first year it was there, the league went out of their way to make it feel like a festive atmosphere, blocking off the road in front of the Knick, bringing in street vendors, etc. I remember it was a great time! As the years went by, there was less and less of that, which to me says they weren't putting in enough effort. If the league wants to make the event a success, they need to put in more effort at making it a festival atmosphere.

That was all the arena's doing (and subsequent not-doing), not the league.

CowbellGuy

Kyle Rose
I don't see what is so bad about Albany. The first year it was there, the league went out of their way to make it feel like a festive atmosphere, blocking off the road in front of the Knick, bringing in street vendors, etc. I remember it was a great time! As the years went by, there was less and less of that, which to me says they weren't putting in enough effort. If the league wants to make the event a success, they need to put in more effort at making it a festival atmosphere.

That was all the arena's doing (and subsequent not-doing), not the league.

I get the feeling that the league brass are even bigger jokers than I previously thought. They want this thing to be a success, but without putting any effort into making it so?

We have a place 10 miles outside Lake Placid and all year long, virtually every weekend, we see vacancy signs at lots of hotels and motels. So I don't think the can't-cancel-less-than-a-week-in-advance problem is really a problem. The LP region's real hotel problem is too many run down, old hotel / motel rooms. It's slowly changing. There's a Marriott Courtyard added I believe after the ECACs decamped.

If we do go back and if we lose to a Yale-like team again up in LP, we can't start the thread afresh or simply repost the old complaints about how playing on Olympic ice is unfair to Cornell.

Does the ECAC have bunglers running the show? Or did Albany have a sense of where ECAC attendance was headed and opted not to offer as many incentives as they did when getting the ECACs out of LP? It may be the ECAC's options were limited. Now AC sees what the attendance is like - and imagine if we lost game 3 in Ithaca and Cornell didn't get to AC - and maybe they won't make much of an offer for an extension of the original 2 or 3 year deal.

Now that I've had a few days to recover from my trip to Atlantic City, I realize that AC does have its positive points, especially compared to Albany:
1) You can buy much better salt water taffy in AC
2) The Atlantic Ocean is more impressive to look at than the Hudson River (at least as it goes through Albany)
3) It was nice to see billboards on the Jersey Turnpike and the AC Expressway with large photos of celebrating Cornell hockey players (I'm afraid our players won't be on those billboards next year, though)
4) The price of gas is much cheaper in NJ than it is in CT (where I live)
5) At least we didn't have to listen to awful canned music played at deafening levels on the PA during stoppages in play, between games, etc. This gave the Cornell pep band plenty of air time on Friday night and both the Yale and Cornell bands plenty of air time on Saturday night. On Friday night, the PA announcer even asked the crowd (if you can call it that) to give a round of applause to the Cornell pep band in appreciation of "doing a great job."

Even so, I'd still prefer traveling to Albany for the ECACs.

There were also a lot more pretty girls in AC than Albany or in fact any other ECAC tourney or home site owing to its relative removal from the genetic sinkhole that is the northeast (with an obvious exemption for all Cornell women who are naturally beautiful).

billhoward
We have a place 10 miles outside Lake Placid and all year long, virtually every weekend, we see vacancy signs at lots of hotels and motels. So I don't think the can't-cancel-less-than-a-week-in-advance problem is really a problem. The LP region's real hotel problem is too many run down, old hotel / motel rooms. It's slowly changing. There's a Marriott Courtyard added I believe after the ECACs decamped.

If we do go back and if we lose to a Yale-like team again up in LP, we can't start the thread afresh or simply repost the old complaints about how playing on Olympic ice is unfair to Cornell.

Does the ECAC have bunglers running the show? Or did Albany have a sense of where ECAC attendance was headed and opted not to offer as many incentives as they did when getting the ECACs out of LP? It may be the ECAC's options were limited. Now AC sees what the attendance is like - and imagine if we lost game 3 in Ithaca and Cornell didn't get to AC - and maybe they won't make much of an offer for an extension of the original 2 or 3 year deal.

I don't know about now, but back when we were going, you had to cancel 1 week ahead. Now we were regular attendees then, but if it were now and we were not in it, I wouldn't go. I'm not that interested in a B & B, but rather a hotel in "downtown" LP, where I can eat, drink and be merry. Outside of LP I'd ski Whiteface, but staying downtown is fine for that.

Jim Hyla
So, you don't think Boston would work, but all your points, except HE, apply to all venues, not just Boston. As I said, if Boston is no worse, we ought to at least think about it. Maybe it would be as bad as AC, but I doubt it.

Yes, you're right, they apply to all venues ... except it's a heckuva lot more expensive to rent out the "Garden" these days than any of the other locations.

Also - I was reacting to the waxing poetic of the annual pilgrimage to Boston - which seemed to be brought up as if to say it would be the same thing.

Back then, none of this stuff was on TV either - another point to consider.

adamw

Jim Hyla
So, you don't think Boston would work, but all your points, except HE, apply to all venues, not just Boston. As I said, if Boston is no worse, we ought to at least think about it. Maybe it would be as bad as AC, but I doubt it.

Yes, you're right, they apply to all venues ... except it's a heckuva lot more expensive to rent out the "Garden" these days than any of the other locations.

Also - I was reacting to the waxing poetic of the annual pilgrimage to Boston - which seemed to be brought up as if to say it would be the same thing.

Back then, none of this stuff was on TV either - another point to consider.

Not the same thing, but we do have some of the same sensation when traveling to the Harvard game. On many a time I've met CU fans on a rest stop on the Thruway and we've talked about the excitement of getting to the game. No, I'll never again have the same feeling of walking the long curved incline from Causeway Street up to the Garden, anticipating the game with every step, but that doesn't mean we can't find a better experience for hockey than AC.

Yes expense is a problem, and I certainly don't know any of the particulars, and probably never will. Without that info I can still dream as large as I want to. The day I stop dreaming, you might as well kiss me good-by.

Don't let me smash your dreams Jim

Trotsky
There were also a lot more pretty girls in AC than Albany or in fact any other ECAC tourney or home site owing to its relative removal from the genetic sinkhole that is the northeast (with an obvious exemption for all Cornell women who are naturally beautiful).

Frankly, most of the people I saw in AC seemed like the dregs of society