You Are the Committee

ryeguy
Has any one been able to get Yale to drop out? I can't seem to. I've tried a few different ways and they still remain in.

Chris 02

ryeguy
Has any one been able to get Yale to drop out? I can't seem to. I've tried a few different ways and they still remain in.

Try this: It involves a bunch of upsets in conference tournaments reducing the at-large pool.

[www.uscho.com]

Jeff Hopkins '82
So far I haven't found a combination where we don't make it if we win at least 1 game.

FWIW

Jeff Hopkins '82
So far I haven't found a combination where we don't make it if we win at least 1 game.

FWIW

mikek

Jeff Hopkins '82
So far I haven't found a combination where we don't make it if we win at least 1 game.

FWIW

Found one a bunch where if we beat Brown and lose to Union we would be out (one example below puts us at #15)... we don't want Maine anywhere near the HEA final, Ferris winning seems to be better than N. Mich. Playing St. Lawrence in the final (or consy) is a lot better for us because a loss to Union is costing us 3 or 4 comparisons due to TUC record.

mnagowski

Interesting thought: Would a win against Union hurt us were it not for the AQ? It would switch our TUC on, right?

sockralex
This isn't going to help North Dakota's chances... [www.uscho.com]

"The WCHA suspended North Dakota’s Matt Frattin late Monday for the forward’s hit on Minnesota’s Kevin Wehrs on Sunday."

USCHO
Feb. 4 — North Dakota forward Matt Frattin has been acquitted on drunk driving charges, the Grand Forks Herald reported.

A jury of six Grand Forks County (N.D.) residents delivered a not guilty verdict after less than 30 minutes of deliberation on Tuesday, the newspaper reported.

Frattin, a junior, was dismissed from the team in August for what was called a violation of team rules. That move came after he was arrested and charged with driving under the influence.

Frattin was reinstated to the team in late December.

The Grand Forks Herald reported that Frattin was pulled over by campus police in the early morning hours of Aug. 19, and a test at the police station recorded his blood-alcohol level at .12 percent. The legal limit in North Dakota is .08 percent.--

upperdeck
it was a nasty hit.. but ND was getting away with murder from the 2nd period on.. Minn was getting hosed.

Trotsky
Jeez. That's dirty in any league.

KeithK

Trotsky
Jeez. That's dirty in any league.

Meh. If it was in open ice that would just be a garden variety charging penalty IMO. It's the proximity to the boards that elevates it into the danger zone.

Jim Hyla

KeithK

Trotsky
Jeez. That's dirty in any league.

Meh. If it was in open ice that would just be a garden variety charging penalty IMO. It's the proximity to the boards that elevates it into the danger zone.

I think wherever that was it's a major, at least I hope so. Rule 6-8 is no contact to the head or neck of any manner. He also left his feet. I think that's enough to be tossed from the game. To me it's worse than hitting from behind and tossed.

You notice how the announcers said nothing about the hit, just talked about how neither coach was happy, etc.

sockralex
I wouldn't be happy if I saw one of our guys get rattled next to the glass like that.

People were saying similar things about an RPI hit on one of the Cornell player's @ RPI last year. There was a couple of seconds left in the game and our player was skating with the puck heading towards the back of the net when the RPI player checked him and sent him into the boards. It looked dirty to me. A lot of RPI people were saying he was off balance and already close to the boards so it looked worse than it was and shouldn't have been a DQ. Either way, our guy was injured and the RPI player got a game DQ.

Clearly my memory is fuzzy on who did the hitting and who got hurt, but I do remember it resulting in a similar argument about how much responsibility should be on the person who got hit.

amerks127

sockralex
I wouldn't be happy if I saw one of our guys get rattled next to the glass like that.

People were saying similar things about an RPI hit on one of the Cornell player's @ RPI last year. There was a couple of seconds left in the game and our player was skating with the puck heading towards the back of the net when the RPI player checked him and sent him into the boards. It looked dirty to me. A lot of RPI people were saying he was off balance and already close to the boards so it looked worse than it was and shouldn't have been a DQ. Either way, our guy was injured and the RPI player got a game DQ.

Clearly my memory is fuzzy on who did the hitting and who got hurt, but I do remember it resulting in a similar argument about how much responsibility should be on the person who got hit.

Burgdoerfer hit Taylor Davenport. Gotta love the team reaction.

KeithK

amerks127

sockralex
I wouldn't be happy if I saw one of our guys get rattled next to the glass like that.

People were saying similar things about an RPI hit on one of the Cornell player's @ RPI last year. There was a couple of seconds left in the game and our player was skating with the puck heading towards the back of the net when the RPI player checked him and sent him into the boards. It looked dirty to me. A lot of RPI people were saying he was off balance and already close to the boards so it looked worse than it was and shouldn't have been a DQ. Either way, our guy was injured and the RPI player got a game DQ.

Clearly my memory is fuzzy on who did the hitting and who got hurt, but I do remember it resulting in a similar argument about how much responsibility should be on the person who got hit.

Burgdoerfer hit Taylor Davenport. Gotta love the team reaction.

I don't think I'm just looking through Carnelian colored glasses but the Burgdoerfer hit was much worse. He intentionally pushes Davenport backwards into the boards. It was alos the last second of the game, leading me to think that he was venting frustration at the end of a bad game by trying to hurt an opponent. The NoDak hit, by contrast, looks a lot more like a regular check. No doubt that it was illegal since he left his feet and made contact to the head and probably worthy of five due to proximity to the boards. But I can't get worked up about it.

No doubt I would be calling for Frattin's execution if he'd hit a Cornell guy like that.

Jim Hyla

KeithK
I don't think I'm just looking through Carnelian colored glasses but the Burgdoerfer hit was much worse. He intentionally pushes Davenport backwards into the boards. It was alos the last second of the game, leading me to think that he was venting frustration at the end of a bad game by trying to hurt an opponent. The NoDak hit, by contrast, looks a lot more like a regular check. No doubt that it was illegal since he left his feet and made contact to the head and probably worthy of five due to proximity to the boards. But I can't get worked up about it.

No doubt I would be calling for Frattin's execution if he'd hit a Cornell guy like that.

What more do you need to say than that, it's a terrible, illegal check that should never be allowed. You'd also probably think differently if you got hit like that.

tretiak
[www.areavoices.com]

As you can see from the stills, Frattin didn't leave his feet to make the hit. It was still definitely a charging/contact to the head penalty.

KeithK

Jim Hyla

KeithK
I don't think I'm just looking through Carnelian colored glasses but the Burgdoerfer hit was much worse. He intentionally pushes Davenport backwards into the boards. It was alos the last second of the game, leading me to think that he was venting frustration at the end of a bad game by trying to hurt an opponent. The NoDak hit, by contrast, looks a lot more like a regular check. No doubt that it was illegal since he left his feet and made contact to the head and probably worthy of five due to proximity to the boards. But I can't get worked up about it.

No doubt I would be calling for Frattin's execution if he'd hit a Cornell guy like that.

What more do you need to say than that, it's a terrible, illegal check that should never be allowed. You'd also probably think differently if you got hit like that.

I just don't get all that worked up about charging or this kind of contact to the head (guy is looking down, check goes high). It's illegal, give him a penalty, that's enough for me.

Jim Hyla

KeithK

amerks127

sockralex
I wouldn't be happy if I saw one of our guys get rattled next to the glass like that.

People were saying similar things about an RPI hit on one of the Cornell player's @ RPI last year. There was a couple of seconds left in the game and our player was skating with the puck heading towards the back of the net when the RPI player checked him and sent him into the boards. It looked dirty to me. A lot of RPI people were saying he was off balance and already close to the boards so it looked worse than it was and shouldn't have been a DQ. Either way, our guy was injured and the RPI player got a game DQ.

Clearly my memory is fuzzy on who did the hitting and who got hurt, but I do remember it resulting in a similar argument about how much responsibility should be on the person who got hit.

Burgdoerfer hit Taylor Davenport. Gotta love the team reaction.

I don't think I'm just looking through Carnelian colored glasses but the Burgdoerfer hit was much worse. He intentionally pushes Davenport backwards into the boards. It was alos the last second of the game, leading me to think that he was venting frustration at the end of a bad game by trying to hurt an opponent. The NoDak hit, by contrast, looks a lot more like a regular check. No doubt that it was illegal since he left his feet and made contact to the head and probably worthy of five due to proximity to the boards. But I can't get worked up about it.

No doubt I would be calling for Frattin's execution if he'd hit a Cornell guy like that.

What more do you need to say than that, it's a terrible, illegal check that should never be allowed. You'd also probably think differently if you got hit like that.

KeithK
I just don't get all that worked up about charging or this kind of contact to the head (guy is looking down, check goes high). It's illegal, give him a penalty, that's enough for me.

marty
I agree with you Jim. If someone hit me like that I would be lucky if I didn't expire. I too wonder how many on this board would like to be hit like that.

Kyle Rose

marty
I agree with you Jim. If someone hit me like that I would be lucky if I didn't expire. I too wonder how many on this board would like to be hit like that.

I weigh 150 lbs, don't work out in the weight room, haven't been playing since I was in diapers (ed: though with any luck I *will* be playing until I'm in diapers), and don't practice 5 hours a day: your argument is a straw man.

A better point of argument is whether the punishment for a hit should depend on how observant the receiving player is, or on how much physical damage the hit does. I say "no" to both of those, too, but at least it could make for a legitimate discussion.

Jim Hyla
The terrible part of he game was that Minny couldn't score and he came back to score for UND. Minny was left with 5 D'men and had another, due to a hit, play sparingly.

Come on, those stills are terrible. The skates are blurred and the picture is from a top angle. From that angle you can't tell if his skates are touching the ice. View the video, he certainly had a jumping motion, off the ice and back down. Stop the video at 11 seconds and look.

tretiak

Come on, those stills are terrible. The skates are blurred and the picture is from a top angle. From that angle you can't tell if his skates are touching the ice. View the video, he certainly had a jumping motion, off the ice and back down. Stop the video at 11 seconds and look.

I've paused it at several spots on the attached video. Pre-contact, Frettin's feet are still on the ice. Then there's contact. Then Frettin's feet leave the ice after contact has already been made. For those of you who didn't play in checking leagues, the force from a hard hit often propels both players off the ice. Also you can't discredit the stills and then base your argument on a similar resolution video.

KeithK

I can believe that. So what is the letter of the rule? If the force of the hit causes propels the hitter off the ice is it by definition an illegal hit? Is it only leaving your feet beforehand? Intent to do so?

I'm asking about the letter here, not the squishy "referees shouldn't enforce that" part (which I sometimes agree with).

2008-10 NCAA MEN’S AND WOMEN’S ICE HOCKEY RULES AND INTERPRETATIONS

Boarding
SECTION 3. A player shall not body check, cross-check, elbow, charge or
trip an opponent from the front or side in such a manner that causes the
opponent to be thrown violently into the boards (see 6-23).
PENALTY—Minor or major at discretion of the referee, based on degree
of violence of the impact with the boards.

Charging
SECTION 6. a. A player shall not skate more than two steps or jump into or
charge an opponent. Charging is the action of a player, who as a result
of distance traveled, checks an opponent violently in any manner from
the front or side.
Note: A fair body check is one in which a player checks an opponent who is in
possession of the puck, by using the hip or body from the front or diagonally
from the front or straight from the side.
PENALTY—Minor or major at discretion of the referee.

Contact to the Head
SECTION 8. A player shall not make contact with an opposing player’s
head or neck area in any manner.
PENALTY—Minor or major or disqualification at the discretion of the
referee. Contact to the head shall be assessed in front of the
infraction (i.e., contact to the head – elbow).
Note: The rules committee instructs officials to use a zero tolerance policy in
this area.

Hitting After the Whistle
SECTION 22. A player shall not make physical contact with an opponent,
including the goalkeeper (see 6-6-b), anywhere on the ice after the whistle
has blown if, in the opinion of a referee, the player had sufficient time after
the whistle to avoid such contact.
PENALTY—Minor or major at discretion of the referee.
Note: Officials are encouraged to pay particular attention to a player who
instigates or escalates an incident after play is stopped.

Hitting From Behind
SECTION 23. a. A player shall not push, charge, cross-check or body check
an opponent from behind in open ice.
PENALTY—Minor or major at the discretion of the referee.
b. Hitting from behind into the side boards, end boards or goal cage is a
flagrant violation.
RULE 6 / PLAYING RULES HR-73
PENALTY—Major and game misconduct or disqualification at the
discretion of the referee.
Note: The committee reminds coaches and players that the responsibility
remains with the player approaching an opponent along the boards in this
rule. While players turning to draw penalties are a concern, the positive
change in behavior the committee observed outweighs this issue. Any penalty
in relation to this rule along the boards or into the goal cage must be a major
penalty and a game misconduct or disqualification.

KeithK

tretiak

Come on, those stills are terrible. The skates are blurred and the picture is from a top angle. From that angle you can't tell if his skates are touching the ice. View the video, he certainly had a jumping motion, off the ice and back down. Stop the video at 11 seconds and look.

I've paused it at several spots on the attached video. Pre-contact, Frettin's feet are still on the ice. Then there's contact. Then Frettin's feet leave the ice after contact has already been made. For those of you who didn't play in checking leagues, the force from a hard hit often propels both players off the ice. Also you can't discredit the stills and then base your argument on a similar resolution video.

I can believe that. So what is the letter of the rule? If the force of the hit causes propels the hitter off the ice is it by definition an illegal hit? Is it only leaving your feet beforehand? Intent to do so?

I'm asking about the letter here, not the squishy "referees shouldn't enforce that" part (which I sometimes agree with).

Jim Hyla

KeithK

tretiak

Come on, those stills are terrible. The skates are blurred and the picture is from a top angle. From that angle you can't tell if his skates are touching the ice. View the video, he certainly had a jumping motion, off the ice and back down. Stop the video at 11 seconds and look.

I've paused it at several spots on the attached video. Pre-contact, Frettin's feet are still on the ice. Then there's contact. Then Frettin's feet leave the ice after contact has already been made. For those of you who didn't play in checking leagues, the force from a hard hit often propels both players off the ice. Also you can't discredit the stills and then base your argument on a similar resolution video.

I can believe that. So what is the letter of the rule? If the force of the hit causes propels the hitter off the ice is it by definition an illegal hit? Is it only leaving your feet beforehand? Intent to do so?

I'm asking about the letter here, not the squishy "referees shouldn't enforce that" part (which I sometimes agree with).

As I said before, it's an illegal hit because he hit his head. It's dangerous and isn't allowed. One player had his feet jump off the ice, the other players feet left the ice because he was hit high and flattened. You can try and make it OK as much as you like, but the powers to be don't agree, and I'm glad they don't. Remind me not to play in your league; I'd like to leave with my mental capacity intact. Oh, maybe that's the problem.

Jim Hyla
This was clearly one of those.

Hits to the head need to be eliminated from the game of Hockey. No one deserves to be permanently harmed from playing hockey, and head injuries are a heartless bitch.

Jim Hyla

KeithK

tretiak

Come on, those stills are terrible. The skates are blurred and the picture is from a top angle. From that angle you can't tell if his skates are touching the ice. View the video, he certainly had a jumping motion, off the ice and back down. Stop the video at 11 seconds and look.

I've paused it at several spots on the attached video. Pre-contact, Frettin's feet are still on the ice. Then there's contact. Then Frettin's feet leave the ice after contact has already been made. For those of you who didn't play in checking leagues, the force from a hard hit often propels both players off the ice. Also you can't discredit the stills and then base your argument on a similar resolution video.

I can believe that. So what is the letter of the rule? If the force of the hit causes propels the hitter off the ice is it by definition an illegal hit? Is it only leaving your feet beforehand? Intent to do so?

I'm asking about the letter here, not the squishy "referees shouldn't enforce that" part (which I sometimes agree with).

As I said before, it's an illegal hit because he hit his head. It's dangerous and isn't allowed. One player had his feet jump off the ice, the other players feet left the ice because he was hit high and flattened. You can try and make it OK as much as you like, but the powers to be don't agree, and I'm glad they don't. Remind me not to play in your league; I'd like to leave with my mental capacity intact. Oh, maybe that's the problem.

David Harding
Charging
SECTION 6. a. A player shall not skate more than two steps or jump into or
charge an opponent. Charging is the action of a player, who as a result
of distance traveled, checks an opponent violently in any manner from
the front or side.
Note: A fair body check is one in which a player checks an opponent who is in
possession of the puck, by using the hip or body from the front or diagonally
from the front or straight from the side.
PENALTY—Minor or major at discretion of the referee.

KeithK

David Harding
Charging
SECTION 6. a. A player shall not skate more than two steps or jump into or
charge an opponent. Charging is the action of a player, who as a result
of distance traveled, checks an opponent violently in any manner from
the front or side.
Note: A fair body check is one in which a player checks an opponent who is in
possession of the puck, by using the hip or body from the front or diagonally
from the front or straight from the side.
PENALTY—Minor or major at discretion of the referee.

This is an odd way to state the rule. In my mind a body check is by definition violent. According to the letter of the rule here you could call charging on virtually every hit that occurs in every game.

Jacob '06
The UND player could've lowered his shoulder and delivered a hit to the chest instead of launching off of the ice into the guys head.

ugarte

Jacob '06
The UND player could've lowered his shoulder and delivered a hit to the chest instead of launching off of the ice into the guys head.

I agree with Jacob (and by implication, disagree with tretiak) that this is what Frettin did. The stills show that he was still on the ice before contact, but they also show him (IMO) crouching into position and releasing upwards, to explode through Wehrs on contact. He didn't leave the ice incidentally to contact, he left the ice in order to finish the check hard.

I'm not calling for a criminal indictment either, and it is arguable that the hit to the head was accidental, but I'm not the person who thinks it is a good argument. A major and ejection were appropriate. Not sure about a suspension. For that I'd want to look to precedent.

Kyle Rose

Jim Hyla
This was clearly one of those.

Actually, that's not at all clear to me from the videos or the stills. There was certainly contact to the head, but it's not clear that it was intentional ("head-hunting" ). Wehrs put his head down at the last second, presumably to dick around with the puck. What is Frettin supposed to do? Veer off a good check because Wehrs decided to cushion the blow to his body with his head? He should have and could have seen Frettin coming, but instead put his own head in a dangerous place. Sorry, but I have very little sympathy for Wehrs in this case (beyond the usual sympathy I would have for someone who was hurt, no matter what the cause). I would have a very different opinion were it hitting from behind, but it wasn't.

And FWIW I play non-checking hockey. Body checks are not allowed. This is not the case in men's college hockey: part of the game is keeping your head up and looking for checks.

RedAR
Definitely rooting for a Cornell win tomorrow, but getting 3 ECAC teams into the NCAA's should we lose is not decent consolation. I guess there's a silver lining in either outcome tomorrow. Still, LET'S GO RED!

KeithK

RedAR
Definitely rooting for a Cornell win tomorrow, but getting 3 ECAC teams into the NCAA's should we lose is not decent consolation. I guess there's a silver lining in either outcome tomorrow. Still, LET'S GO RED!

Exactly. Just win.

andyw2100
I didn't spend very much time on it at all, but the following might save someone a minute or two. All the higher seeds winning would result in Cornell winding up 7th.

Jeff Hopkins '82

andyw2100
I didn't spend very much time on it at all, but the following might save someone a minute or two. All the higher seeds winning would result in Cornell winding up 7th.

And if they go straight 1-8, 2-7, etc. that means we go to Fort Wayne to play in Miami's bracket. Because as close as I can figure, Miami is locked in at #2, and if we win, we're 7, no matter what else happens.

So unless they dick around with the brackets to boost attendance, get ready to head west again.

Jeff Hopkins '82
It looks like the top 6 are fixed:

1 Denver
2 Miami
3,4,5,6 - NoDak, St. Cloud, BC, and Wisconsin in some order.

Now if we win, we win the RPI comparison with Bemidji and Yale, and the TUC comparison with NMU, UVM, and UNH, so we finish 7th.

If we lose, UVM, NMU, and UNH all win the TUC comparison, Bemidji and Yale win on RPI, and we drop to 10th or 11th. 10th if Miami beats Ferris, 11th if Ferris beats Miami, depending on how Ferris does.


That's it. Those are the options.

Jeff Hopkins '82
It looks like the top 6 are fixed:

1 Denver
2 Miami
3,4,5,6 - NoDak, St. Cloud, BC, and Wisconsin in some order.

Now if we win, we win the RPI comparison with Bemidji and Yale, and the TUC comparison with NMU, UVM, and UNH, so we finish 7th.

If we lose, UVM, NMU, and UNH all win the TUC comparison, Bemidji and Yale win on RPI, and we drop to 10th or 11th. 10th if Miami beats Ferris, 11th if Ferris beats Miami, depending on how Ferris does.

That's it. Those are the options.

dsk1
If we win, then it looks like we are #7. The #1-2 seeds are between Denver and Miami which will come down to their TUC and is very close. If Miami does better than Denver today it will get the overall #1 seed (i.e., Denver loss with Miami win or tie or Denver tie and Miami win). If Miami takes the #1 seed, then Denver as the number #2 seed would likely be in Albany with us as the #7. If Denver gets the overall #1, then it looks like we are headed west unless they dick around with the brackets to boost attendance.

Jeff Hopkins '82

dsk1
If we win, then it looks like we are #7. The #1-2 seeds are between Denver and Miami which will come down to their TUC and is very close. If Miami does better than Denver today it will get the overall #1 seed (i.e., Denver loss with Miami win or tie or Denver tie and Miami win). If Miami takes the #1 seed, then Denver as the number #2 seed would likely be in Albany with us as the #7. If Denver gets the overall #1, then it looks like we are headed west unless they dick around with the brackets to boost attendance.

I like how my comment is getting repeated.

Robin
....and when was the last time they dicked around the brackets to boost attendance...?

andyw2100

Robin
....and when was the last time they dicked around the brackets to boost attendance...?

They usually dick around with the brackets just to screw Cornell.

Robin
Why wouldn't Denver get sent to Minnesota vs Albany?

jkahn
The possibilities (if I've got them right):
Cornell wins - we are #7 and Denver is #2.
Union wins and at least one of Mich. and RIT wins - Cornell is #10 and Bemidji #7.
Union, NMU and SH win - Cornell is #11.

jkahn
If Michigan holds on, our regional, if they go by the numbers, could be:
2 Denver, 7 Cornell, 10 No. Mich, 15 RIT

ansky629
Michigan finished off Northern 2-1. Looks like it will be Denver-RIT and Cornell-Northern in Albany next weekend.

DeltaOne81
Its amazing that there's not one intra-conference issue in the raw 1-16, 2-15, etc matchups this year.

Who are the hosts this year? Trying to run through it myself.

DeltaOne81
Who are the hosts this year? Trying to run through it myself.

Jacob '06
Yeah, its either UNH and Vermont in albany, or Cornell and RIT. Who knows who wins out for attendance in that one.