Camera policy in Lynah?
Posted by Andy Dodd
Camera policy in Lynah?
Posted by: Andy Dodd (---.external.lmco.com)
Date: March 12, 2010 12:22PM
I've tried to do a bit of searching both on the forums and the Cornell Athletics site but haven't found an answer. It's probably there somewhere but I just haven't been able to find it yet. I hold season tickets in the townie sections this year and am thinking of bringing my camera to the playoff games. I've seen plenty of point-and-shoots in the stands, but not many SLRs. (There's one person I've seen periodically with an SLR that seems to be a spectator and not there in a professional fashion, but I can't be sure.)
What is the policy on cameras in Lynah? Obviously flash photography is verboten, but other than that - any other restrictions? I'm probably bringing a moderate sized lens (Sigma 18-250mm, as it's my longest optically stabilized lens, and my Sigma 50-500 is simply WAY too big to bring to a game and too slow to use that reach indoors anyway...)
Also, this is not professional work - photography is just a (very expensive) hobby for me. However, in many places, security personnel are notorious for assuming "SLR = professional".
What is the policy on cameras in Lynah? Obviously flash photography is verboten, but other than that - any other restrictions? I'm probably bringing a moderate sized lens (Sigma 18-250mm, as it's my longest optically stabilized lens, and my Sigma 50-500 is simply WAY too big to bring to a game and too slow to use that reach indoors anyway...)
Also, this is not professional work - photography is just a (very expensive) hobby for me. However, in many places, security personnel are notorious for assuming "SLR = professional".
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/12/2010 01:29PM by Andy Dodd.
Re: Camera policy in Lynah?
Posted by: CowbellGuy (Moderator)
Date: March 12, 2010 02:23PM
I've shot with everything from a 10.5mm fisheye to a 300 2.8. Bring whatever you like, it's no problem.
___________________________
"[Hugh] Jessiman turned out to be a huge specimen of something alright." --Puck Daddy
"[Hugh] Jessiman turned out to be a huge specimen of something alright." --Puck Daddy
Re: Camera policy in Lynah?
Posted by: Andy Dodd (---.external.lmco.com)
Date: March 12, 2010 03:41PM
Thanks!
(300mm/2.8... I'm jealous!)
Maybe next season I'll try the Bigma at a game, but that lens requires a LOT of practice and upper body strength and I'm out of shape.
(300mm/2.8... I'm jealous!)
Maybe next season I'll try the Bigma at a game, but that lens requires a LOT of practice and upper body strength and I'm out of shape.
Re: Camera policy in Lynah?
Posted by: Kyle Rose (---.deploy.akamaitechnologies.com)
Date: March 12, 2010 03:50PM
Re: Camera policy in Lynah?
Posted by: billhoward (---.hsd1.nj.comcast.net)
Date: March 12, 2010 06:50PM
NCAA is death on pro type cameras coming in to NCAA events. First two guards at Gillette Stadium last fall saw the 400mm lens in my sling bag and were about to speed dial Homeland Security. The third I BS'd about the weather and how much I missed living in the Bay State and she waved me in.
Don't give Cornell ideas.
If Cornell really loved photographers, they'd cut holes in the plexi so you could shoot through. (Some rinks have cover plates for when they aren't being used.) Age spends four grand for a good lens and the glass kills the lens quality.
Outdoors, you can no longer shoot on the field proper. In the Richie Moran era, it was, 'C'mon down.'
Don't give Cornell ideas.
If Cornell really loved photographers, they'd cut holes in the plexi so you could shoot through. (Some rinks have cover plates for when they aren't being used.) Age spends four grand for a good lens and the glass kills the lens quality.
Outdoors, you can no longer shoot on the field proper. In the Richie Moran era, it was, 'C'mon down.'
Re: Camera policy in Lynah?
Posted by: KeithK (---.external.lmco.com)
Date: March 12, 2010 07:14PM
billhoward
If Cornell really loved photographers, they'd cut holes in the plexi so you could shoot through. (Some rinks have cover plates for when they aren't being used.) Age spends four grand for a good lens and the glass kills the lens quality.
Not to mention the absurd lighting. (Or have they fixed that?)
Re: Camera policy in Lynah?
Posted by: billhoward (---.hsd1.nj.comcast.net)
Date: March 12, 2010 10:21PM
Two things I recall from Lynah: While the lumens are up from the Harkness / Bertrand era, there still seem to be hotspots, and the lowest-bidder-won lamps appear to be the kind that color shift 60 times a second, so if you bring in a gray card or Expodisc color balancing filter, it's only good that 1/60 second. Best in the CAC is Quinnipiac, which has awesome lighting (sidelit not top lit), at least a stop brighter and maybe two, and still either the Q photographer or the New Haven photographer was using Dynalites or Speedotron multiple strobes (flash duration shorter than 1/2000 second, usually you shoot at f/5.6 or f/8) for better photos still. (I haven't shot at Lynah this year so my info may be dated.)
You want to see how Sports Illustrated shoots NCAA sports, they send in a team a week in advance and wire something like a half dozen strobes in each of the four corners of the arena. [www.microsoft.com]
By the way, the people who tell you "equipment doesn't matter," that's BS. A lousy photographer will still take lousy photos with an expensive lens and camera, but a decent photog with a 300mm f/2.8 shooting at 6 frames per second, it's hard to mess up.
If you've got an open-minded girlfriend or wife, put the Nikon or Canon 70-200mm f/2.8 on your birthday / Christmas wishlist. It won't reach the far side of the field, but for candids of your cute terrier, or your brother's kids playing on the swing -- priceless. That's the first big bucks lens to aim for.
You want to see how Sports Illustrated shoots NCAA sports, they send in a team a week in advance and wire something like a half dozen strobes in each of the four corners of the arena. [www.microsoft.com]
By the way, the people who tell you "equipment doesn't matter," that's BS. A lousy photographer will still take lousy photos with an expensive lens and camera, but a decent photog with a 300mm f/2.8 shooting at 6 frames per second, it's hard to mess up.
If you've got an open-minded girlfriend or wife, put the Nikon or Canon 70-200mm f/2.8 on your birthday / Christmas wishlist. It won't reach the far side of the field, but for candids of your cute terrier, or your brother's kids playing on the swing -- priceless. That's the first big bucks lens to aim for.
Re: Camera policy in Lynah?
Posted by: Andy Dodd (---.stny.res.rr.com)
Date: March 13, 2010 01:42AM
My observations:
Not a single hassle from any usher/security person. Odd, I thought I'd at least get frisked for fish like I did at the last home Harvard game! This may not apply at other venues of course, but Lynah seems fine as others stated.
The team uniforms are clearly treated with one of those whiteners that fluoresce. Do NOT use Scrivens' uniform as a white balance reference like I did! The uniforms will look great but everything else will be wacky
I didn't have problems with color shifts - shooting at 1/125 most of the game, color seems consistent from shot to shot.
The ice seems to make an OK WB reference, but a proper white reference on-ice would be nice... An Expodisc is probably going to get thrown off by the fluorescents that cover the stands. If you take a WB ref off of uniforms, the ice looks awful. If you ref off the ice, the uniforms still look OK. I'm glad that I always shoot in a raw format so I can post-correct white balance issues.
I need a faster lens (see above shutter speed comment). My body is a Pentax so while there is Tamron and Sigma 70-200/2.8 glass available, Sigma just announced one with optical stabilization added to it. While the Pentax bodies have sensor-shift stabilization, having it in the lens helps AF. Shooting at f/6.3 sucked. Lots of lost shots due to blur.
Shooting through the glass from a seat really sucks - some of the panels are rather scuffed up so the camera AFs on them instead of the action. The seams are annoying as hell.
As bad as the glass is for image quality, referees are worse...
Not a single hassle from any usher/security person. Odd, I thought I'd at least get frisked for fish like I did at the last home Harvard game! This may not apply at other venues of course, but Lynah seems fine as others stated.
The team uniforms are clearly treated with one of those whiteners that fluoresce. Do NOT use Scrivens' uniform as a white balance reference like I did! The uniforms will look great but everything else will be wacky
I didn't have problems with color shifts - shooting at 1/125 most of the game, color seems consistent from shot to shot.
The ice seems to make an OK WB reference, but a proper white reference on-ice would be nice... An Expodisc is probably going to get thrown off by the fluorescents that cover the stands. If you take a WB ref off of uniforms, the ice looks awful. If you ref off the ice, the uniforms still look OK. I'm glad that I always shoot in a raw format so I can post-correct white balance issues.
I need a faster lens (see above shutter speed comment). My body is a Pentax so while there is Tamron and Sigma 70-200/2.8 glass available, Sigma just announced one with optical stabilization added to it. While the Pentax bodies have sensor-shift stabilization, having it in the lens helps AF. Shooting at f/6.3 sucked. Lots of lost shots due to blur.
Shooting through the glass from a seat really sucks - some of the panels are rather scuffed up so the camera AFs on them instead of the action. The seams are annoying as hell.
As bad as the glass is for image quality, referees are worse...
Re: Camera policy in Lynah?
Posted by: CowbellGuy (Moderator)
Date: March 13, 2010 10:45AM
The white balance problem is a moving target. There's no "correct" WB. As mentioned earlier in this thread, the lights actually phase between blue and red at somewhere around 60 Hz. If you camera has a live view or you have a pocket point-and-shoot, just take a wide angle look at the ice, but not if you're prone to epileptic fits. IT's visible at anything faster than around 1/100 and moreso the faster you shoot. What's worse is each light seems to be completely out-of-phase with the one next to it, so you're always going to be dealing with not just one, but both color casts in almost every shot. It's taken me, I dunno, 6 years(?) to come up with a workable postprocessing solution, which I'm not particularly apt to share, and is software-dependent, but it's a pain in the ass. Correct white point is somewhere around 5000K +/- 100. Set that and do what you can to fix the color casts. Or don't bother. A lot of published photographers just don't bother, but that speaks more to certain publications' journalistic and photographic standards than proper practice.
___________________________
"[Hugh] Jessiman turned out to be a huge specimen of something alright." --Puck Daddy
"[Hugh] Jessiman turned out to be a huge specimen of something alright." --Puck Daddy
Re: Camera policy in Lynah?
Posted by: Andy Dodd (---.stny.res.rr.com)
Date: March 13, 2010 12:33PM
Hmm... For some reason my post appeared as a gigantic text block. 
In a few of my wide angle shots I do see a bit of a light-to-light variance, but things do seem relatively constant from shot-to-shot even at 1/125-1/160. It's not perfect though...
In a few of my wide angle shots I do see a bit of a light-to-light variance, but things do seem relatively constant from shot-to-shot even at 1/125-1/160. It's not perfect though...
Re: Camera policy in Lynah?
Posted by: billhoward (---.hsd1.nj.comcast.net)
Date: March 13, 2010 04:13PM
Just punt and set it to auto white balance. Photos you can enjoy that night or overnight are a lot more interesting, IMO, than perfect images a week later. Actually, there's room for both. That's also why a lot of arena photogaphers just bring their own strobes and overpower the rink lighting; they use strobes with very short flash durations that aren't as noticeable and that also don't annoy the NCAA, which actually sets rules on who can use flash at a tournament
I'm going to ask Mike or Andy to add neutral gray as a trim color in the Cornell sports color palette and make it a patch on the sides of each helmet big enough to grab with the Photoshop eyedropper. As you know or found out, the ice and jerseys look pure white to our eyes but not even close as far as the camera is concerned.
I'm going to ask Mike or Andy to add neutral gray as a trim color in the Cornell sports color palette and make it a patch on the sides of each helmet big enough to grab with the Photoshop eyedropper. As you know or found out, the ice and jerseys look pure white to our eyes but not even close as far as the camera is concerned.
Re: Camera policy in Lynah?
Posted by: CowbellGuy (Moderator)
Date: March 13, 2010 04:24PM
That's about the worst thing you can do, since the white balance can change completely from shot to shot depending at where in the phasing the light that happens to be most prominent in your shot is. Whether you want stuff that night or next year, do what I said and set your white point to around 5000K. And neutral grey's won't make a damned bit of difference since it's always changing. If you set it on a neutral grey it will be based on whatever the light is doing at that instant.
___________________________
"[Hugh] Jessiman turned out to be a huge specimen of something alright." --Puck Daddy
"[Hugh] Jessiman turned out to be a huge specimen of something alright." --Puck Daddy
Re: Camera policy in Lynah?
Posted by: Jordan 04 (---.cable.mindspring.com)
Date: March 13, 2010 04:58PM
Get a room, you guys!
Re: Camera policy in Lynah?
Posted by: RichH (---.hsd1.ct.comcast.net)
Date: March 13, 2010 05:05PM
Jordan 04
Get a room, you guys!
They did. It's called the "Camera policy in Lynah?" topic.
Re: Camera policy in Lynah?
Posted by: Larry72 (---.twcny.res.rr.com)
Date: March 13, 2010 06:01PM
OK gentlemen - you are both correct. Age, if you want to start with a consistent image to post process, you're right. That's if you're trying to get the same color renditions every time. Bill, if you don't care about getting the exact same color every time, using auto white balance will get you close. The camera will adjust (kind of, but it's not perfect). I've tried both techniques and in the end there's work to be done either way.
I chuckle over all of this. "Back in the day",(think 60s and early 70s) the lighting was truly poor. There were "circles" of brighter light directly under the old (2 generations ago, I think) lights, about 20ft in diameter. At best we shot f2.8 @ 500th with Tri-X pushed to ISO (ASA) 1600+ that gave us a pretty grainy B/W image, but we printed it anyway. The few times I shot color, it was really tough. Ectachrome 400 shot at 800 was barely acceptable and there wasn't a good way to correct the color. Going to the old Boston Garden was a real treat! Almost a full stop more light and holes in the glass in all the corners. The local photographers didn't have to worry about that. They could use the Garden's strobes...really powerful which were up in the rafters. I never liked those images (lots of funny shadows), but it stopped the action!
At Lynah, we shot through the "green" glass behind the goals and in the corner. Also from ladders above the glass and from the penalty box. I don't recall even thinking about wearing a helmet. (Of course, the players didn't wear facemasks either.)
Larry
I chuckle over all of this. "Back in the day",(think 60s and early 70s) the lighting was truly poor. There were "circles" of brighter light directly under the old (2 generations ago, I think) lights, about 20ft in diameter. At best we shot f2.8 @ 500th with Tri-X pushed to ISO (ASA) 1600+ that gave us a pretty grainy B/W image, but we printed it anyway. The few times I shot color, it was really tough. Ectachrome 400 shot at 800 was barely acceptable and there wasn't a good way to correct the color. Going to the old Boston Garden was a real treat! Almost a full stop more light and holes in the glass in all the corners. The local photographers didn't have to worry about that. They could use the Garden's strobes...really powerful which were up in the rafters. I never liked those images (lots of funny shadows), but it stopped the action!
At Lynah, we shot through the "green" glass behind the goals and in the corner. Also from ladders above the glass and from the penalty box. I don't recall even thinking about wearing a helmet. (Of course, the players didn't wear facemasks either.)
Larry
___________________________
Larry Baum '72
Ithaca, NY
Larry Baum '72
Ithaca, NY
Re: Camera policy in Lynah?
Posted by: David Harding (---.hsd1.il.comcast.net)
Date: March 13, 2010 07:21PM
And I'm trying to remember just when you had to start worrying about shooting through the glass. Initially the protection at the ends was cyclone fence (that sometimes popped out of its frame) and there was nothing above the boards along the sides.Larry72
OK gentlemen - you are both correct. Age, if you want to start with a consistent image to post process, you're right. That's if you're trying to get the same color renditions every time. Bill, if you don't care about getting the exact same color every time, using auto white balance will get you close. The camera will adjust (kind of, but it's not perfect). I've tried both techniques and in the end there's work to be done either way.
I chuckle over all of this. "Back in the day",(think 60s and early 70s) the lighting was truly poor. There were "circles" of brighter light directly under the old (2 generations ago, I think) lights, about 20ft in diameter. At best we shot f2.8 @ 500th with Tri-X pushed to ISO (ASA) 1600+ that gave us a pretty grainy B/W image, but we printed it anyway. The few times I shot color, it was really tough. Ectachrome 400 shot at 800 was barely acceptable and there wasn't a good way to correct the color. Going to the old Boston Garden was a real treat! Almost a full stop more light and holes in the glass in all the corners. The local photographers didn't have to worry about that. They could use the Garden's strobes...really powerful which were up in the rafters. I never liked those images (lots of funny shadows), but it stopped the action!
At Lynah, we shot through the "green" glass behind the goals and in the corner. Also from ladders above the glass and from the penalty box. I don't recall even thinking about wearing a helmet. (Of course, the players didn't wear facemasks either.)
Larry
Re: Camera policy in Lynah?
Posted by: Larry72 (---.twcny.res.rr.com)
Date: March 13, 2010 10:03PM
David - I think we were in middle school or before! I didn't start photographing hockey till high school! Ugh - we're really showing our ages!!
Larry
Larry
___________________________
Larry Baum '72
Ithaca, NY
Larry Baum '72
Ithaca, NY
Re: Camera policy in Lynah?
Posted by: David Harding (---.hsd1.il.comcast.net)
Date: March 13, 2010 10:46PM
That sounds about right, Larry. I was going to games without parental supervision. Perhaps I'm remembering Saturday afternoon freshman games. We would saunter in, sit in the front row of Section B, and have a great view. Dave
Re: Camera policy in Lynah?
Posted by: Andy Dodd (---.stny.res.rr.com)
Date: March 15, 2010 08:54AM
Maybe I need to readjust my monitor's color temp settings, but 3900-4000K seems to be far closer to the mark. That's taken from rough ice (NOT smooth!) at a slow shutter speed to average out the fluctuations.CowbellGuy
That's about the worst thing you can do, since the white balance can change completely from shot to shot depending at where in the phasing the light that happens to be most prominent in your shot is. Whether you want stuff that night or next year, do what I said and set your white point to around 5000K. And neutral grey's won't make a damned bit of difference since it's always changing. If you set it on a neutral grey it will be based on whatever the light is doing at that instant.
At 1/160 (again, I need a faster lens...), I think I didn't see many problems due to that being only slightly shorter than a complete half cycle of AC.
I decided to trade noise for shutter speed and go up to ISO 2000 on Saturday and underexpose slightly to get to 1/250 - I was seeing some mild color variations of the lighting at this point, although not too bad (still at 1/4 of an AC cycle...) Still it was varying around a center of around 3900-4000 or so, not 5000.
The uniforms come out to around 4200-4250, but if you set white balance on them EVERYTHING else has this sickly looking tinge to it. If you set WB off of rough ice, the uniforms are slightly bluish but not too bad. My guess, as before, is that they're using one of the many detergents out there that fluoresce slightly to make clothes "extra bright" to the human eye (but completely throw off cameras).
I'll start uploading to my SmugMug account tonight.
Re: Camera policy in Lynah?
Posted by: billhoward (---.hsd1.nj.comcast.net)
Date: March 15, 2010 10:17AM
If your choice is a shutter speed less than 1/250 second or picking up noise pushng the ISO way, way up, I think you have to live with the image noise, which includes those little red green blue dots that are noticeable in some of the areas that should be uniform black. There are a couple tools that reduce noise such as Noise Ninja but only to a point. Another cheat is the fill light or so-called fill flash setting in Photoshop, Photoshop Elements, or Picasa that lightens the shadows nicely; just don't overdo it (I'll lighten until the effect is clearly visible then scale back to half the setting). These are quick and dirty fixes.
Re: Camera policy in Lynah?
Posted by: Andy Dodd (---.external.lmco.com)
Date: March 15, 2010 10:52AM
Yeah, the higher shutter speed (and slightly greater noise) from the second night worked far better in terms of keeping things sharp.
Color shifting at 1/250 isn't too bad.
I'll need a faster lens to consider higher shutter speeds though. I have been tempted off and on by the Sigma and Tamron 70-200/2.8 lenses, but Sigma just announced that they're refreshing their 70-200 by adding optical stabilization so I'm going to hold off even longer. While I do get sensor-shift stabilization with any lens on my body (Pentax K20D), in-lens stabilization is very nice for framing and focusing.
I have seen that some arenas have ceiling-mounted strobes. I know Princeton had it at a game many years ago. I think it might be a permanent fixture, as it wasn't a playoff game or anything like that. That (or upgraded high frequency ballasts for the existing lighting) would be nice at Lynah. Since most of us mortals couldn't use the strobes, HF ballasts will at least be an improvement. Cornell could do it under the auspices of "going green" since if I recall correctly, newer ballasts also have power factor correction.
Color shifting at 1/250 isn't too bad.
I'll need a faster lens to consider higher shutter speeds though. I have been tempted off and on by the Sigma and Tamron 70-200/2.8 lenses, but Sigma just announced that they're refreshing their 70-200 by adding optical stabilization so I'm going to hold off even longer. While I do get sensor-shift stabilization with any lens on my body (Pentax K20D), in-lens stabilization is very nice for framing and focusing.
I have seen that some arenas have ceiling-mounted strobes. I know Princeton had it at a game many years ago. I think it might be a permanent fixture, as it wasn't a playoff game or anything like that. That (or upgraded high frequency ballasts for the existing lighting) would be nice at Lynah. Since most of us mortals couldn't use the strobes, HF ballasts will at least be an improvement.
Cornell could do it under the auspices of "going green" since if I recall correctly, newer ballasts also have power factor correction.
Re: Camera policy in Lynah?
Posted by: billhoward (---.hsd1.nj.comcast.net)
Date: March 15, 2010 01:16PM
Pro sports photographer named Guy Rhodes did some interesting tests trying to see what worked best for color balance under artificial lighting. As you can see below, nothing was on the nose unless you dropped the shutter speed to 1/60 second, at which point your only choice doing sports is to shoot artistic pans or the players waiting for a faceoff.
See his explanation at [www.sportsshooter.com]. He tried all sorts of stuff such as doing a custom white balance at 1/30 and then using that at 1/500 - didn't work. He also went down the same route I've used, automatic white balance and that wasn't very successful either (one row up from the bottom). As Rhodes said, "I had to eat my own words when I tried auto white balance (row 4) as my next test. Colors still shifted through the burst, despite my thoughts that the camera would analyze each frame as it was shot." To my eyes, the AWB wasn't terrible. Four of the five frames seem within the realm of acceptability, but the third frame was well off. So you definitely also want to think about Age's preference: Pick a fixed color temperature of around 5000 Kelvin.
I will be corrected if wrong, but to put in better quality lamps (bulbs) that would be enviromentally green and color-corrected white, I believe you need more than a ladder -- you also have to replace the fixtures. So it's not cheap.
[clear]
See his explanation at [www.sportsshooter.com]. He tried all sorts of stuff such as doing a custom white balance at 1/30 and then using that at 1/500 - didn't work. He also went down the same route I've used, automatic white balance and that wasn't very successful either (one row up from the bottom). As Rhodes said, "I had to eat my own words when I tried auto white balance (row 4) as my next test. Colors still shifted through the burst, despite my thoughts that the camera would analyze each frame as it was shot." To my eyes, the AWB wasn't terrible. Four of the five frames seem within the realm of acceptability, but the third frame was well off. So you definitely also want to think about Age's preference: Pick a fixed color temperature of around 5000 Kelvin.
I will be corrected if wrong, but to put in better quality lamps (bulbs) that would be enviromentally green and color-corrected white, I believe you need more than a ladder -- you also have to replace the fixtures. So it's not cheap.
Guy Rhodes
In the following comparison between white balance methods, I shot the back of white sync-slate with color chips on the sticks under a typical fluorescent light fixture. I chose to use 1/500th of a second shutter speed, the ideal "bare minimum" that I'd use for fast action sports that might be shot under discharge lighting (football, basketball, etc.). I shot a burst of six images at eight frames per second using a Canon 1D MarkII. ... As you can see in rows one and two, the color is all over the place throughout the burst with both fluorscent (row 1) and tungsten (row 2) white balances. As someone suggested in a separate thread, I slowed down to 1/30th of a second (slower than the 60Hz cycling of the light), and performed a custom white balance off the white portion of the sync slate. Running the shutter back up to 1/500th and shooting another burst (row 3) revealed the same color shifting anomaly, because again, we're still locked into one white balance (albeit a custom one) as the color of the lights goes up and down, up and down. Custom white balancing will NOT solve color shifting under discharge lights at high shutter speeds, even if you custom white balance at a speed slower than the cycle, as illustrated here. I had to eat my own words when I tried auto white balance (row 4) as my next test. Colors still shifted through the burst, despite my thoughts that the camera would analyze each frame as it was shot. The only way I was able to get consistent color in a burst under the fluorescent light (row 5) was to slow down the shutter speed to equal that of the cycling, which in the United States, would mean setting the camera to 1/60th or slower. This would be fine for shooting features in an office, but would hardly be adequate for available light action sports. This experiment serves as further fuel for my loathing of discharge lighting fixtures, and the reason why I'll drag strobes to every indoor (and sometimes outdoor) sport I shoot where I know discharge light fixtures will be present.
Re: Camera policy in Lynah?
Posted by: billhoward (---.hsd1.nj.comcast.net)
Date: March 15, 2010 01:35PM
Quinnipiac also has strobes in the light bank. A full set to light the entire arena will run you $20,000. (A drop in the bucket vs. the $53 million Q spent for the hockey/hoops facility.) An acquaintance who shoots for the NJ Devils carries a pack of two on tall tripods when he shoots arena sports elswhere eg HS or college hockey and wants to light up one end of the rink. That's about $2,500 in gear. Arena strobes or sports strobes have very short flash duration, both to stop the action better and to be less annoying to fans and TV cameras. The NCAA requires they be quicker than 1/1000 second (is there anything they dont' have rules on?) and many are quicker (shorter duration) than 1/2000. They also recycle quickly vs. ones you put in the studio but it's still one shot every three seconds. I talked to the president of Dynalite at a trade show and he said used strobes pretty much work fine, except you may have to replace a worn bulb. (And I wonder about the quality of the powerpack if you cycle shots faster than recommended.) Dynalite is big in the arena strobe business; most people consider Speedotron the top brand.
Some photographers on budgets use a couple of high-end Nikon or Canon strobes and get reasonable results, but these are still $400 apiece, you need to buy a battery booster pack for $100-$150 extra, and you need remote radio triggers (Pocket Wizards) that run $150-$200 per flash plus one for the camera. (They're the things that look black cigarette packs atop the camera hot shoe with a radio antenna.) For everybody who says, I'm gonna shoot flash, there's another who realizes, At that price, I'm going to have another go with available light and Photoshop."
Some photographers on budgets use a couple of high-end Nikon or Canon strobes and get reasonable results, but these are still $400 apiece, you need to buy a battery booster pack for $100-$150 extra, and you need remote radio triggers (Pocket Wizards) that run $150-$200 per flash plus one for the camera. (They're the things that look black cigarette packs atop the camera hot shoe with a radio antenna.) For everybody who says, I'm gonna shoot flash, there's another who realizes, At that price, I'm going to have another go with available light and Photoshop."
Re: Camera policy in Lynah?
Posted by: Jim Hyla (---.twcny.res.rr.com)
Date: March 15, 2010 09:01PM
I know Age likes this, but John Spencer it?
Actually it's interesting.
Actually it's interesting.___________________________
"Cornell Fans Made the Timbers Tremble", Boston Globe, March/1970
Cornell lawyers stopped the candy throwing. Jan/2005
"Cornell Fans Made the Timbers Tremble", Boston Globe, March/1970
Cornell lawyers stopped the candy throwing. Jan/2005
Re: Camera policy in Lynah?
Posted by: Andy Dodd (---.stny.res.rr.com)
Date: March 15, 2010 10:23PM
At 1/250 it is not even remotely close to a bad as the examples above. It becomes noticeable, but not awful.
Going to start my first SmugMug upload when I go to bed tonight... Stupid slow Time Warner upstream!
John Spencer? (Oh, the offtopic forum... )
As to the "remote portable strobes" approach - TTL seems like asking for trouble in a "tough" exposure situation (Because the brightness was reasonably consistent to around +/- half a stop except at the very edges of the arena on the ends, I shot in manual exposure mode for the entirety of both games.) Remove TTL from the picture and the price per strobe for 60WS units drops to a shade over $100. I actually own three hotshoe strobes (One fullblown TTL one, and two $100 manual-only specials) and radio triggers for them (although they're the first-generation "poverty wizards" from China. The latest generation perform MUCH better, almost as good as PWs based on reviews I've read.) However I think that setup is a good way to get the boot from Lynah.
I would have thought that getting the strobes away from the athlete's sightlines would be more important than limiting flash duration - Even 30WS in your eyes is going to be pretty damn distracting. Well, those are the rules. Right now from looking at monoblocs, most actually get slower as you drop the power (since unlike hotshoe flashes that use a quench circuit, monoblocs usually change the charge level itself). All this is of course theoretical, I'm assuming anyone here is going to be stuck with available light.
Going to start my first SmugMug upload when I go to bed tonight... Stupid slow Time Warner upstream!
John Spencer? (Oh, the offtopic forum...
)
As to the "remote portable strobes" approach - TTL seems like asking for trouble in a "tough" exposure situation (Because the brightness was reasonably consistent to around +/- half a stop except at the very edges of the arena on the ends, I shot in manual exposure mode for the entirety of both games.) Remove TTL from the picture and the price per strobe for 60WS units drops to a shade over $100. I actually own three hotshoe strobes (One fullblown TTL one, and two $100 manual-only specials) and radio triggers for them (although they're the first-generation "poverty wizards" from China. The latest generation perform MUCH better, almost as good as PWs based on reviews I've read.) However I think that setup is a good way to get the boot from Lynah.
I would have thought that getting the strobes away from the athlete's sightlines would be more important than limiting flash duration - Even 30WS in your eyes is going to be pretty damn distracting. Well, those are the rules. Right now from looking at monoblocs, most actually get slower as you drop the power (since unlike hotshoe flashes that use a quench circuit, monoblocs usually change the charge level itself). All this is of course theoretical, I'm assuming anyone here is going to be stuck with available light.
Re: Camera policy in Lynah?
Posted by: marty (---.nycap.res.rr.com)
Date: March 15, 2010 10:31PM
There are some strobes in the ceilings at the TU Center in Albany. Are these for photography? I couldn't figure out what the hell they were. I think I have noticed them for the past two years. Firing seemed to be random, but was noticeable.
Re: Camera policy in Lynah?
Posted by: Andy Dodd (---.stny.res.rr.com)
Date: March 15, 2010 11:18PM
Can't think of any other reason for strobes to be popping in a hockey arena. The "randomness" is whenever the photographer is taking a shot - most likely they use the aforementioned Pocket Wizards, although one transmitter on the camera and one receiver connected to a common trigger for all strobes.
Hmm, I wonder how many WS you'd need to cover an entire arena...
Hmm, I wonder how many WS you'd need to cover an entire arena...
Re: Camera policy in Lynah?
Posted by: CowbellGuy (Moderator)
Date: March 16, 2010 01:29AM
marty
There are some strobes in the ceilings at the TU Center in Albany. Are these for photography? I couldn't figure out what the hell they were. I think I have noticed them for the past two years. Firing seemed to be random, but was noticeable.
The official rink photographer uses them. He's also an ass, but that's beside the point.
___________________________
"[Hugh] Jessiman turned out to be a huge specimen of something alright." --Puck Daddy
"[Hugh] Jessiman turned out to be a huge specimen of something alright." --Puck Daddy
Re: Camera policy in Lynah?
Posted by: billhoward (---.client.stsn.net)
Date: March 16, 2010 02:01PM
Yes, this is drifting, but it sort of started out related to men's hockey. The Pocket Wizard the pros use (it's a brand that dominates the market but the name is also used generically, like Xerox as a verb used to be) triggers the flash and you set them to manual. Just out are Pocket Wizards meant for Canon (one model) and Nikon (second model)and they actually do multiple strobe TTL measurements. It's more useful for fashion photographers or dedicated amateurs. If you set up lights on stands at a rink you just do a couple test shots, and that's that.
Re: Camera policy in Lynah?
Posted by: Andy Dodd (---.external.lmco.com)
Date: March 17, 2010 11:17AM
I finally uploaded Friday's pictures - [andydodd.smugmug.com]
I didn't spend too much time sorting through them, so there are a reasonable amount of dupes/uninteresting pictures. The white balance came out quite well, at least when at 1/160
I'll try to have Saturday's up tonight. I was at 1/250 shutter speed most of that game, and there were some noticeable color shifts but nothing especially bad. Probably only 200-300K +/- variation.
I definately need a lot of practice and a better lens next year.
I didn't spend too much time sorting through them, so there are a reasonable amount of dupes/uninteresting pictures. The white balance came out quite well, at least when at 1/160
I'll try to have Saturday's up tonight. I was at 1/250 shutter speed most of that game, and there were some noticeable color shifts but nothing especially bad. Probably only 200-300K +/- variation.
I definately need a lot of practice and a better lens next year.
Re: Camera policy in Lynah?
Posted by: kaelistus (---.hfc.comcastbusiness.net)
Date: March 19, 2010 09:53AM
Andy, though not up to Age's standard those aren't bad at all! Thanks for sharing!
What's wrong with taking the photographs as RAW and figuring out white balance post shot manually?
What's wrong with taking the photographs as RAW and figuring out white balance post shot manually?
___________________________
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'Screw Cornell Athletics' is a registered trademark of Cornell University
Kaelistus == Felix Rodriguez
'Screw Cornell Athletics' is a registered trademark of Cornell University
Re: Camera policy in Lynah?
Posted by: Andy Dodd (---.stny.res.rr.com)
Date: March 19, 2010 06:48PM
I always shoot RAW, but to at least get the viewfinder looking good, I set the camera WB.
For those, I took a WB sample using ufraw's dropper tool off of the ice. Unfortunately I can only do single-pixel dropper or full-image automatic. I need to request "area" WB sampling as a feature or ufraw.
For the second game, taking a camera WB sample off of rough ice at the beginning of the game seems to have given good enough results even moving the shutter speed up to 1/250. I COULD tweak things a bit more per shot, but using the same WB for everything gave acceptable results.
Friday was my first attempt at hockey photography - I have a LOT of practice (and experimentation) to do, and also really need a 70-200/2.8 lens.
Two tricks that helped a lot:
1) With the exception of the edges of the rink, illumination was reasonably constant. I set the camera to manual exposure at the smallest aperture used by my lens to avoid having to compensate for it being variable aperture. Unfortunately this meant sitting at f/6.3
2) Aforementioned WB settings
I keep forgetting to start the upload of Saturday's pictures before leaving the apartment.
For those, I took a WB sample using ufraw's dropper tool off of the ice. Unfortunately I can only do single-pixel dropper or full-image automatic. I need to request "area" WB sampling as a feature or ufraw.
For the second game, taking a camera WB sample off of rough ice at the beginning of the game seems to have given good enough results even moving the shutter speed up to 1/250. I COULD tweak things a bit more per shot, but using the same WB for everything gave acceptable results.
Friday was my first attempt at hockey photography - I have a LOT of practice (and experimentation) to do, and also really need a 70-200/2.8 lens.
Two tricks that helped a lot:
1) With the exception of the edges of the rink, illumination was reasonably constant. I set the camera to manual exposure at the smallest aperture used by my lens to avoid having to compensate for it being variable aperture. Unfortunately this meant sitting at f/6.3
2) Aforementioned WB settings
I keep forgetting to start the upload of Saturday's pictures before leaving the apartment.
Re: Camera policy in Lynah?
Posted by: Jim Hyla (---.twcny.res.rr.com)
Date: March 22, 2010 11:04PM
Forget whites, what's up with the crimson jerseys on the cornellbigred web page about NCAA tickets? Say nothing of it being last years Grand Rapids picture, maybe the color faded.![B-]](http://elf.elynah.com/smileys/11.gif "B-]")
___________________________
"Cornell Fans Made the Timbers Tremble", Boston Globe, March/1970
Cornell lawyers stopped the candy throwing. Jan/2005
"Cornell Fans Made the Timbers Tremble", Boston Globe, March/1970
Cornell lawyers stopped the candy throwing. Jan/2005
Re: Camera policy in Lynah?
Posted by: Andy Dodd (---.external.lmco.com)
Date: March 23, 2010 10:47AM
[andydodd.smugmug.com] - Saturday 3/13 game.
Sharper shots in general, but I think I caught some better "moments" the night before. As you can see, the WB is starting to vary a little at 1/250. Worst is one of the pictures of the nearest leftmost corner of the rink, caught the light at a really reddish point in one picture.
Sharper shots in general, but I think I caught some better "moments" the night before. As you can see, the WB is starting to vary a little at 1/250. Worst is one of the pictures of the nearest leftmost corner of the rink, caught the light at a really reddish point in one picture.
Re: Camera policy in Lynah?
Posted by: billhoward (---.hsd1.nj.comcast.net)
Date: March 23, 2010 03:01PM
You want better color balance, hope Cornell plays its next ECAC quarterfinals at Quinnipiac.
IMO color that's off in one corner of the photo or the background may be the lights cycling through the color spectrum at different times. One may be in its blue period, another in red.
IMO color that's off in one corner of the photo or the background may be the lights cycling through the color spectrum at different times. One may be in its blue period, another in red.
Re: Camera policy in Lynah?
Posted by: Andy Dodd (---.external.lmco.com)
Date: March 23, 2010 05:03PM
Yup, exactly Bill. (by the way, I saw your pictures from Albany, they were excellent!)
Fortunately at 1/250, while the color shifting with time starts being noticable, it's not horrible. (unlike those 1/500 bursts above).
The question, of course, is how much worse it gets going from 1/250 to 1/500 in Lynah - Lynah's lighting may not shift as much as the lighting of the example given above.
Fortunately at 1/250, while the color shifting with time starts being noticable, it's not horrible. (unlike those 1/500 bursts above).
The question, of course, is how much worse it gets going from 1/250 to 1/500 in Lynah - Lynah's lighting may not shift as much as the lighting of the example given above.
Re: Camera policy in Lynah?
Posted by: Jim Hyla (---.twcny.res.rr.com)
Date: March 23, 2010 08:29PM
I understand there are reasons for color problems, but hoped crimson wouldn't show up on cornellbigred.com, at least not if they were standing up. Flat on their back, crimson is a good color.
___________________________
"Cornell Fans Made the Timbers Tremble", Boston Globe, March/1970
Cornell lawyers stopped the candy throwing. Jan/2005
"Cornell Fans Made the Timbers Tremble", Boston Globe, March/1970
Cornell lawyers stopped the candy throwing. Jan/2005
Re: Camera policy in Lynah?
Posted by: Andy Dodd (---.external.lmco.com)
Date: March 24, 2010 01:41PM
In that case, it's probably a combination of slight WB errors and slight underexposure (cameraperson might have used autoexposure, not manual tweaked so white was as bright as possible w/o getting blown out). I'd have to check a histogram of the image to see for sure. Underexposed red is probably going to look crimson-ish.
Re: Camera policy in Lynah?
Posted by: billhoward (---.hsd1.nj.comcast.net)
Date: March 24, 2010 01:54PM
Of course. When you have something inferior to red, it's crimson.Andy Dodd
In that case, it's probably a combination of slight WB errors and slight underexposure (cameraperson might have used autoexposure, not manual tweaked so white was as bright as possible w/o getting blown out). I'd have to check a histogram of the image to see for sure. Underexposed red is probably going to look crimson-ish.
Automatic white balance goes beyond admitting from Exeter and St. Marks.
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