Hockey webcasts - why is RPI so good?

Maybe it's because they're an engineering school and have pride in quality of the technology: The RPI webcast from the ECAC first round in Troy was amazingly good, pretty much on par with standard definition TV, plus multiple camera angles. It's a reminder you have to be a serious, diehard Cornell fan to watch our modest webcast efforts. RPI hockey is like TV that's coincidentally broadcast over the Web; Cornell hockey is like a high school science experiment whose entrant gets the smallest ribbon, the one that says "proud participant."

billhoward
Maybe it's because they're an engineering school and have pride in quality of the technology: The RPI webcast from the ECAC first round in Troy was amazingly good, pretty much on par with standard definition TV, plus multiple camera angles. It's a reminder you have to be a serious, diehard Cornell fan to watch our modest webcast efforts. RPI hockey is like TV that's coincidentally broadcast over the Web; Cornell hockey is like a high school science experiment whose entrant gets the smallest ribbon, the one that says "proud participant."

Too bad Harvard doesn't have a student run webcast. It could be a senior honors project. I predict an A+ .

You think a Harvard student webcast would be so good it would merit an A+? Oh, wait, you said it would get an A+.

The answer is surprisingly simple. They are using all free and open source technologies (their website uses Flowplayer, for example), they have engineering students that have a basic level of competence and common sense that actually care about people watching the game.

Contrast this to RedCrap, who created their own proprietary "platform" (SideArm,) and are completely and utterly incompetent to the point where they blame any shortcomings on their users. That sad, stuttering, inexcusable slideshow of a broadcast last week was the nadir of what you can expect from these retards. That they would not only blame it on the people that are paying them money but also make sure to remind them that they are lucky to have anything at all because they are losing money only goes to show you the gall of these money grubbing a-holes.

These morons that are running the show right now are bilking money from people and can't even keep up with other schools free services. Their entire existence is based on taking our money ahead of time, and doing nothing. Hold them accountable, threaten a class action, see what happens. These shysters would skip town and run away with their tiny penises between their legs before we had a chance to get refunds. Unfortunately they are probably smart enough to be nameless, faceless cowards, so they will just move on to their next scam, but at least it won't be us. Hopefully they will just drop dead.

isnt sidearm just using basic flash embedding on the client end? it all starts with how the feed gets from the school to the provider. are the other schools using sidearm complaining? I know for example the feed for the SU games is better than the feed for the cornell ones. I think some of that is because SU is using the tv feeds for most games, better cameras better looking result.

ScrewBU
That they would not only blame it on the people that are paying them money but also make sure to remind them that they are lucky to have anything at all because they are losing money only goes to show you the gall of these money grubbing a-holes.

Hopefully they will just drop dead.

Don't hold back. Tell us how you really feel!

ScrewBU
The answer is surprisingly simple. They are using all free and open source technologies (their website uses Flowplayer, for example), they have engineering students that have a basic level of competence and common sense that actually care about people watching the game.

Contrast this to RedCrap, who created their own proprietary "platform" (SideArm,) and are completely and utterly incompetent to the point where they blame any shortcomings on their users. That sad, stuttering, inexcusable slideshow of a broadcast last week was the nadir of what you can expect from these retards. That they would not only blame it on the people that are paying them money but also make sure to remind them that they are lucky to have anything at all because they are losing money only goes to show you the gall of these money grubbing a-holes.

These morons that are running the show right now are bilking money from people and can't even keep up with other schools free services. Their entire existence is based on taking our money ahead of time, and doing nothing. Hold them accountable, threaten a class action, see what happens. These shysters would skip town and run away with their tiny penises between their legs before we had a chance to get refunds. Unfortunately they are probably smart enough to be nameless, faceless cowards, so they will just move on to their next scam, but at least it won't be us. Hopefully they will just drop dead.

Well, I guess I know where you stand. On the other hand, I have been able to watch lax, bball, women's hockey, and more (I watched more football, if you can call it that, on internet than in person this year). I'm sure we could get better quality, but you have to also be ready to do everything.

Jim Hyla

ScrewBU
The answer is surprisingly simple. They are using all free and open source technologies (their website uses Flowplayer, for example), they have engineering students that have a basic level of competence and common sense that actually care about people watching the game.

Contrast this to RedCrap, who created their own proprietary "platform" (SideArm,) and are completely and utterly incompetent to the point where they blame any shortcomings on their users. That sad, stuttering, inexcusable slideshow of a broadcast last week was the nadir of what you can expect from these retards. That they would not only blame it on the people that are paying them money but also make sure to remind them that they are lucky to have anything at all because they are losing money only goes to show you the gall of these money grubbing a-holes.

These morons that are running the show right now are bilking money from people and can't even keep up with other schools free services. Their entire existence is based on taking our money ahead of time, and doing nothing. Hold them accountable, threaten a class action, see what happens. These shysters would skip town and run away with their tiny penises between their legs before we had a chance to get refunds. Unfortunately they are probably smart enough to be nameless, faceless cowards, so they will just move on to their next scam, but at least it won't be us. Hopefully they will just drop dead.

Well, I guess I know where you stand. On the other hand, I have been able to watch lax, bball, women's hockey, and more (I watched more football, if you can call it that, on internet than in person this year). I'm sure we could get better quality, but you have to also be ready to do everything.

Why? I didn't pay for the all sports package, I paid for the hockey package only. It's great that they offer multiple sports but my $$$ was for hockey only and I'm not paying for them to subsidize other sports. I wasn't aware they are a charity. If they're losing money because of that, they can 1) charge more for each sport so they don't lose money, or 2) go out of business. Businesses that can't make money should go out of business.

Also, you're sidestepping the issue that even for a single sport, a free (student run) service is offering something with a higher quality than a for profit. How is it that the quality of a single sport is LESS for a paid services than a FREE service? Specifically I'm talking about things like the graininess and the oversaturated, whiter than holy f-ing white crapola they show now. There's just no excuse for those things, even given the multiple sport issue.

They are textbook shysters. They take your money, they don't deliver what they promised, they blame you when there are problems, and then when you back them into a corner they say they aren't making any money anyway and you're lucky to have them. Sorry, no refunds. The only remaining thing for them to do is to disappear when someone sues them. That's these cowards MO and they should as I made it clear before drop dead (and go home.)

Jim Hyla

ScrewBU
The answer is surprisingly simple. They are using all free and open source technologies (their website uses Flowplayer, for example), they have engineering students that have a basic level of competence and common sense that actually care about people watching the game.

Contrast this to RedCrap, who created their own proprietary "platform" (SideArm,) and are completely and utterly incompetent to the point where they blame any shortcomings on their users. That sad, stuttering, inexcusable slideshow of a broadcast last week was the nadir of what you can expect from these retards. That they would not only blame it on the people that are paying them money but also make sure to remind them that they are lucky to have anything at all because they are losing money only goes to show you the gall of these money grubbing a-holes.

These morons that are running the show right now are bilking money from people and can't even keep up with other schools free services. Their entire existence is based on taking our money ahead of time, and doing nothing. Hold them accountable, threaten a class action, see what happens. These shysters would skip town and run away with their tiny penises between their legs before we had a chance to get refunds. Unfortunately they are probably smart enough to be nameless, faceless cowards, so they will just move on to their next scam, but at least it won't be us. Hopefully they will just drop dead.

Well, I guess I know where you stand. On the other hand, I have been able to watch lax, bball, women's hockey, and more (I watched more football, if you can call it that, on internet than in person this year). I'm sure we could get better quality, but you have to also be ready to do everything.

Oh, also, as much as I'd like to blame them for the football team, unfortunately I don't think that's a quality issue they can fix.

Thanks for sharing. Consider this possibility: The commercial webcast is everything you've said, and nobody's gettting rich. The potential is there but not the money in 2010. I bet annual subscribers to Redcast number in the very small thousands out of a quarter million living Cornell alumni. The near term money is to build out a site that doesn't suck, gets carried by a hundred universities, and then gets bought by a commercial broadcast/cable much as CSTV did on the cable side.

billhoward
Thanks for sharing. Consider this possibility: The commercial webcast is everything you've said, and nobody's gettting rich. The potential is there but not the money in 2010. I bet annual subscribers to Redcast number in the very small thousands out of a quarter million living Cornell alumni. The near term money is to build out a site that doesn't suck, gets carried by a hundred universities, and then gets bought by a commercial broadcast/cable much as CSTV did on the cable side.

I understand and agree about the business side, and I do think that having such a large number of sports available is nice. Believe me, nothing would make me happier than having the "Big Red Network."

The part I don't agree with is the "building out a site that doesn't suck." The things that are wrong with their streams---graininess, compression artifacts, washed out colors, audio that's a mile away, aren't things that cost any money at all to get right. They do a decent job with the hard part, getting the streams up and running (with some notable exceptions) but the really basic stuff, the stuff that RPI's student TV organization can do, they somehow can't? These are basic things that anyone who's ever tried to stream something runs into, and figures them out. It's just abject laziness.

Also, another big no-no for a company that's trying to grow themselves out is treating their customers they way they do. For example, last saturday a bunch of people emailed them to tell them the broadcast was stuttering, and everyone got the same "check your computer, it's fine on our end." I could go on and on but if you use them, you know what I mean.

CSTV is a great example of how to do it right. They started small, but you could tell they really cared about what they were doing. I remember the Harvard game from a couple years ago where they did a pre-game, they showed the fish being thrown out onto the ice, Dave Starman was doing commentary and could barely talk because of the atmosphere.

Anyway, my point is there was genuine interest, and it's no surprise they were bought out. As noble as the cause, I can't get behind ICS because I don't think their services are up to snuff, and I certainly don't think their business practices should be rewarded.

the bigger issue is that Cornell needs to care enough to make sure its done right. the athletic dept as a whole does things over and over that really make you wonder if anyone up there gets it. it starts with scheduling games to start at the same time, running the golf course into the ground, marketing poorly, a lousy web site and then add to it not caring about making sure a product like this is up to snuff..

upperdeck
the bigger issue is that Cornell needs to care enough to make sure its done right. the athletic dept as a whole does things over and over that really make you wonder if anyone up there gets it. it starts with scheduling games to start at the same time, running the golf course into the ground, marketing poorly, a lousy web site and then add to it not caring about making sure a product like this is up to snuff..

Abso-freaking-lutely. One other thing to add to that list is ticket sales. I've personally been told by the ticket office that there were tickets available for a game but that I couldn't purchase them ahead of time and the only way I could get them was to show up in person on the day of the game. Not a big deal if you live in Ithaca I guess, but when you're travelling from NYC with a group of 4-5 people, that's not really an option. Talk about not getting it---these people were NoDak fans that wanted to see Lynah because they had heard so much about it, and I can't help but think it took a little away from the experience that that was what they were told (as was I.)

ScrewBU

upperdeck
the bigger issue is that Cornell needs to care enough to make sure its done right. the athletic dept as a whole does things over and over that really make you wonder if anyone up there gets it. it starts with scheduling games to start at the same time, running the golf course into the ground, marketing poorly, a lousy web site and then add to it not caring about making sure a product like this is up to snuff..

Abso-freaking-lutely. One other thing to add to that list is ticket sales. I've personally been told by the ticket office that there were tickets available for a game but that I couldn't purchase them ahead of time and the only way I could get them was to show up in person on the day of the game. Not a big deal if you live in Ithaca I guess, but when you're travelling from NYC with a group of 4-5 people, that's not really an option. Talk about not getting it---these people were NoDak fans that wanted to see Lynah because they had heard so much about it, and I can't help but think it took a little away from the experience that that was what they were told (as was I.)

As a member of the media, I agree with all of this. I cover games in the ECAC for USCHO and after I had the gall to hold up the Cornell press conference after the Yale game because I wanted to speak to two Yale players before they got on the bus after their win, SID Kevin Zeise has denied further credential requests from me. It's not like I write some blog that only a few people read. They have decided to shut out coverage from college hockey's undisputed news leader. It is pathetic. Cornell is all about themselves. They capitalize on the popularity of their hockey team by fleecing their fan base because they know they can. No one is going anywhere else on Friday and Saturday nights.

ScrewBU
The answer is surprisingly simple. They are using all free and open source technologies (their website uses Flowplayer, for example), they have engineering students that have a basic level of competence and common sense that actually care about people watching the game.

It's true that we at RPI TV use free and open source technologies, but we also create a number of them. Our members have developed technologies such as video scoreboard displays (http://sourceforge.net/projects/hockeyboard/) and multi-camera instant replay systems (http://github.com/asquared/openreplay), and released them as open source software. We really appreciate the positive feedback, and we will continue to do everything possible to provide the best possible broadcasts for you, the viewers.

Andrew Armenia
RPI TV Member
Openreplay Developer

Maybe we could rent you for this weekend. Dueling webcasts. Do the Cornell faithful choose the already paid-for Recast or spend $5.99 for standard-def quality which still beats driving to Ithaca, scrapping for tix, and then paying for a hotel for two nights?

We deserve a better webcast. You guys deserve a better (late in the season) team. ECACs in Albany eight years and never a trip to the Pepsi / Times-Union Center must be disheartening. Thanks for being a shining beacon on the video end.

(You think the PCB residual matter in the Hudson somehow clarifies the image, like the big capacitor you connect between the wall socket and your TV's rabbit ears? I'm trying to remember what that stupid thing was called.)

So all we need for a great webcast are a dozen, or so students willing to put their time into a production. Any complainers ready to volunteer someone?

Jim Hyla
So all we need for a great webcast are a dozen, or so students willing to put their time into a production. Any complainers ready to volunteer someone?

Maybe WVBR or The Cornell Daily Sun might want to expand into the medium of video. It worked for Rupert Murdoch.

Jim Hyla
So all we need for a great webcast are a dozen, or so students willing to put their time into a production. Any complainers ready to volunteer someone?

No, we had that. All we need is for athletics to extract their collective heads from their collective rectums. Don't hold your breath.

The people behind Cornell athletics aren't inherently evil. Overwhelmed, maybe. The occasional wrong-in-hindsight choices. We're on, what, our third or fourth webcast provider: the Syracuse operation that came down to help do a couple events, the CSTV operation (that also did the cookie cutter website) where CS ddn't stand for customer service, somebody else?, and now the Redcast operation. That's my recall. Has any one of them lasted more than a couple years? Cornell perhaps might call on a distinguished panel of smart alumni for guidance in this area just as alumni help with insight and guidance for the Cornell Daily Sun and the Alumni Magazine. Bucky Gunts '73 was on the team that won Cornell's first championship and you may have seen his name second on the credits list for the NBC Olympics. That'd be a start.

Barring our bringing in a half-dozen Cornellian Emmy winners, we could just hire Team RPI since they don't, as in the past eight seasons, have anything to do after the ECAC quarterfinals.

Barring our bringing in a half-dozen Cornellian Emmy winners, we could just hire Team RPI since they don't, as in the past eight seasons, have anything to do after the ECAC quarterfinals.

Does Team RPI get paid? Or are they student volunteers? I think that's the difference right there.

If anyone is serious about wanting to try and make a difference, ask CowbellGuy for some of his first-hand experience with the Cornell Athletic Department. What's needed is a philosophical shift within the Administration to enable this type of student-based or volunteer-based activity.

I agree that the webcasts are bad but RPI is an exception. After watching a lot of streamed away basketball games this year, I would say Redcast is about average. Most colleges have terrible streaming systems unless espn360.com picks up the game. At least our school doesnt cut into the time when the other team is on offensive with replays of Cornell offensive plays or while the other team is on offense, take the video feed away and just display a big sign that says Defense. At least a couple schools did this for basketball games.

Today's lax webcast is a good example. No pre-game audio--came up just as game started--audio still breaking up with sudden changes of volume after one quarter. Livestats not working at all.

So we have now and have had for years a lot of talk/complaining and we know folks like CowBellGuy have gotten crap from athletics in the past, but seriously what can we do to make something actually happen here? Do we get a petition, do we recruit some motivated students, do we approach WVBR/WHCU/Slope Media Group/RPI? Do we strap down some of the folks in the Admin and force them to watch 12 hours of redcast broadcast?
Anyone want to step up here? Watching the RPI broadcast last weekend was just so refreshing and frustrating at the same time, something has to be done and would be great if the ball could start rolling this post season.

You're not going to see a change in policy from Athletics because the idiocy runs throughout everyone who sets policy, from Andy and Anita right on down. If anything were to change, the pressure would have to come from above, and outside of, Athletics. Like, say, the trustees. And to the average trustee who isn't paying close attention, Athletics probably seems to be doing a fine job based on Andy's singular metric of winning percentage. I suppose Schafer might have enough clout to get something done, but he doesn't really have the time, or likely desire, to wade through that mess.

Bahnstorm
So we have now and have had for years a lot of talk/complaining and we know folks like CowBellGuy have gotten crap from athletics in the past, but seriously what can we do to make something actually happen here? Do we get a petition, do we recruit some motivated students, do we approach WVBR/WHCU/Slope Media Group/RPI? Do we strap down some of the folks in the Admin and force them to watch 12 hours of redcast broadcast?
Anyone want to step up here? Watching the RPI broadcast last weekend was just so refreshing and frustrating at the same time, something has to be done and would be great if the ball could start rolling this post season.

I might donate money to see that provided we can pick which games we make them watch. I think the Dartmouth at Lynah from this past fall (I think that was the game where the video was out for most of the game) should be on the list. Sounds like a few lax games would make it too.

And no, they do not get any of the "refreshments" that Redcast viewers typically have while watching and bitching/griping about the quality of the broadcast.

Rita
And no, they do not get any of the "refreshments" that Redcast viewers typically have while watching and bitching/griping about the quality of the broadcast.

Dunno. Allowing "refreshments" but forbidding potty breaks might be even better.

Al DeFlorio
Today's lax webcast is a good example. No pre-game audio--came up just as game started--audio still breaking up with sudden changes of volume after one quarter. Livestats not working at all.

I gave up halfway through the first. The choppiness was too much to take.

Chris '03

Al DeFlorio
Today's lax webcast is a good example. No pre-game audio--came up just as game started--audio still breaking up with sudden changes of volume after one quarter. Livestats not working at all.

I gave up halfway through the first. The choppiness was too much to take.

Picture's been steady here, although the washed-out color makes the Cornell players look like klansmen who've been short-sheeted.

Edit: Scoreboard doesn't work, either.

We arent the only ones complaining about video feed quality, here Penn/Princeton fans are complaining about their feeds for basketball
[boards.basketball-u.com]

The people in Cornell athletics aren't evil. They may be overwhelmed. They may make poor choices and improve or fix them over time. What Ivy athletics programs are the other athletics directors looking up to these days? It's Cornell's. The embarrassment at Cornell athletics (the one we kind of blow right past) is the state of the football team. A lot of people could send messasges, "Andy, you're a jerk for showing mediocre web video" and have zero impact, as opposed to a bunch of people sending e-mail, mentioning how much they love the webcasts and wish it could be even better sooner (and BTW we were impressed by how the RPI webcast appears to be near TV quality)."

Remember Al Capone's upbeat thought about politeness: You'll get more with a kind word and a gun that you will with a gun alone.

billhoward
The people in Cornell athletics aren't evil. They may be overwhelmed. They may make poor choices and improve or fix them over time. What Ivy athletics programs are the other athletics directors looking up to these days? It's Cornell's. The embarrassment at Cornell athletics (the one we kind of blow right past) is the state of the football team. A lot of people could send messasges, "Andy, you're a jerk for showing mediocre web video" and have zero impact, as opposed to a bunch of people sending e-mail, mentioning how much they love the webcasts and wish it could be even better sooner (and BTW we were impressed by how the RPI webcast appears to be near TV quality)."

Remember Al Capone's upbeat thought about politeness: You'll get more with a kind word and a gun that you will with a gun alone.

Honestly as many mistakes as athletics makes Andy sure does know how to hire good coaches which is the most important thing he can do. Maybe some of the long time alumni can comment on whether there has been a better last few years overall for Cornell sports than these past few years, right now we have great mens/womens hockey, mens basketball, mens lacrosse, wrestling, and probably some other non spectator sports

mnagowski
Does Team RPI get paid? Or are they student volunteers? I think that's the difference right there.

RPI TV doesn't make a dime for their hockey game filming; everyone involved in the past weekend's streaming operation is a student volunteering to stick around their first weekend of spring break. The club has been filming RPI hockey games for 5-6 years now and has developed a lot of pretty neat tools (like Andrew mentioned) to make it look as good as possible.

My limited interactions have been that Athletic Departments tend to partner with a video provider like Redcast/Sidearm, B2, or alike based on a sales pitch and the potential to earn a very small amount of revenue. Only afterward do they figure out exactly who's going to get stuck moving the camera. RPI TV approached it backwards: they've been filming hockey for a long time (regardless of if the Athletics Dept wants to stream it) and had gotten pretty good at it. This weekend they decided to try streaming it online to see how that worked out...

Let me get this straight: A bunch of students, who obviously don't know as much as real adults, decided to try your luck at streaming this stuff online and managed to do a better job - beginner's luck? you hit the Web on a good weekend? you're still pissed at getting shot down by Cal Tech? - than commercial services with a couple years in the business? Incredible.

Have y'all ever considered outsourcing your services?

All the emails in the world dont matter unless the Ath dept cares.. And every conversation I have had with them and people higher up the food chain has made it clear they don't care about much of anything execept the public perception about how good certain teams are.. FBall is clearly the main concern, all the other issues that Ath dept's need to manage (web sites, marketing, tickets, merchandise, publication, the facilities, etc) they could care less about and it many instances have people in charge of them who dont care either.. for many its a job, how good a job they do is less important than that they keep it.

Let me get this straight: A bunch of students, who obviously don't know as much as real adults, decided to try your luck at streaming this stuff online and managed to do a better job - beginner's luck? you hit the Web on a good weekend? you're still pissed at getting shot down by Cal Tech? - than commercial services with a couple years in the business? Incredible.

Have y'all ever considered outsourcing your services?

Here's the thing, Bill -- if they outsourced their services, they would probably want to be paid for it -- because they certainly aren't going to be filming every Cornell men's lacrosse and women's basketball games for free. They would also one day graduate from RPI and want to put food on their table, a roof over their head, and decent level of health insurance. And if you think through all those costs then RedCast would all of a sudden cost more than $70 a year per person.

So the more important question in my mind is why does Cornell have 3 times as many undergraduates as RPI yet can't seem to cultivate a similar level of student interest?

You cant do for free what Cornell doesnt want people to do. Cornell would now rather be losing money on Redcast and do all the sports than produce better quality and some of the sports. I think people here think they can do both but it would require delgating to some new group or keep track of details them selves.. this way they know it gets done and can wash thier hands of it.

Some comments here have departed the rational plane. Others are on active runway. Why isn't Cornell doing first class video? It's not an active conspiracy. In some cases, perhaps the message-bearers have had encounters with Cornell before and the two don't see eye to eye, so their message is discounted. More importantly, the people who can make a difference such as Andu Noel are bombarded with requests to do this or that, to have Lynah declared a nuclear-free zone, to have Steve Donahue welcome Drake at Slope Day, to balance the athletics budget, to say hi on the phone to an alum who's about to write a check for $25,000 to Cornell athletics, to have lunch with the Boiardi family when they're in Ithaca, to think about replacements for Steve Donahue in case he's on the move, to find money to snowplow Schoellkopf Field on account of all the snow, and so forth. This is a classic Important / Not Urgent managerial issue (like buying life insurance) that doesn't bubble to the top.

If there were to be a five-person committee to investigate and recommend, do you think Andy Noel would want any of us on it, or do you think he'd say we're all hotheads and unable to play well in a sandbox?

If there were to be a five-person committee to investigate and recommend, do you think Andy Noel would want any of us on it, or do you think he'd say we're all hotheads and unable to play well in a sandbox?

To be fair, I don't think we're all hotheads. And some of us can even agree on some things some of the time.

What I find interesting is that SlopeTV has been streaming free video of some of the basketball games this year. The video has been shaky and hard to follow, so I have typically watched RedCast instead, but the powers that be obviously had to approve SlopeTV's operation. So what's not to stop a similar organization from attempting to freely stream the hockey games?

IF WE WERE HOTHEADS THERE WOULD BE FAR MORE UPPERCASE LETTERS IN THIS EMAIL THREAD

KenP
IF WE WERE HOTHEADS THERE WOULD BE FAR MORE UPPERCASE LETTERS IN THIS EMAIL THREAD

Ken, you wouldn't qualify on account of all the words are spelled right. Although you didn't get the chance to misuse your and it's. And you got there not their right.