The End of Ivy Hockey Competitiveness?

Poll

To be more competitive the Ivies should

Only registered users are allowed to vote for this poll.
64 votes were received.

Start Earlier	37		58%
Give Athletic Scholaships	0		0%
Only Play Other Ivies Early in Season	1		2%
A & B	10		16%
A & C	9		14%
B & C	0		0%
A, B, & C	1		2%
None of the Above	6		8%

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Are we seeing the end of Ivy hockey competitiveness in the ECAC and NCAA? Or is it just an early season fluke, that the bottom six teams in the ECAC are Ivy League teams and the top six teams all give athletic scholarships? Yes, I know that Yale hasn't played as many games and can move up the ladder, but...

Now it can be argued that, with their tuition policy, HYP give scholarships, but with the possible exception of Yale, it seems increasingly difficult for the Ivy League teams to keep up. You can also argue that it is early in the season and the Ivy League starts later than the other schools. However, does that mean that they are really starting behind and it's increasingly difficult to catch up?

Personally, I think the Ivy League has to allow earlier games. But will that be enough? Should we only play other Ivies for the first month? I don't know the answer, but I think there is a problem.

> Are we seeing the end of Ivy hockey competitiveness in the ECAC and NCAA?

No. For goodness sake, Yale just won the NCAAs last year.

> Or is it just an early season fluke, that the bottom six teams in the ECAC are Ivy League teams and the top six teams all give athletic scholarships?

Yes, it's just a fluke. Also, I thought Union did not give athletic scholarships.


The Ivies should conform to ECAC rules for number of games, earliest practices and games, etc. There should be no distinct "Ivy" sub-entity within the ECAC when it comes to those operational rules.

Cornell should also get in line with HYP on grants for all but the wealthiest students, but that's a larger social issue.

Never relax academic standards. If anything, increase them. If that affects competitiveness, so be it. We are not Quinnipiac.

Never replace Lynah with an anonymous corporate arena, particularly since Ag students are adroit with ammonium nitrate.

I think the athletic scholarship thing is a red herring. The Ivies already give athletic scholarships: they're called financial aid, and they level the playing field when recruiting athletes not from wealthy families. That's probably enough, because there are surely more than enough good hockey players from poor and middle class families.

I basically think the game limit should be raised or eliminated. As long as the students are still required to maintain a certain level of academic performance, I'm not sure the league should assume that fewer games = greater academic focus.

Kyle Rose
I basically think the game limit should be raised or eliminated. As long as the students are still required to maintain a certain level of academic performance, I'm not sure the league should assume that fewer games = greater academic focus.

That's what I was trying to get at. If they eliminate the games limit and academics suffers, then OK, go back to limiting the games. But at the moment it smacks of a solution in search of a problem. And if they were serious they would, say, limit Architecture majors to 12 games. (Pat Heaphy, IIRC?)

Unless the games limit is something the athletes and coaches want. If so, they should know. But my impression is it's something that well-meaning ADs and schools administrators have levied on them.

Kyle Rose
The Ivies already give athletic scholarships: they're called financial aid, and they level the playing field when recruiting athletes not from wealthy families. That's probably enough, because there are surely more than enough good hockey players from poor and middle class families.

I'd guess that this pool is very limited for hockey players. It's a really expensive sport to play both in terms of equipment and league fees. And I'd venture a guess that most of Cornell's roster wasn't "home-grown" talent of sorts, rather kids who had the ability to be moved around to play in leagues like the USHL or BCHL by the time they hit their mid-late teens. Doesn't strike me as a lower class type of move.

I think this "This is the end of Ivy/small school competitiveness" question been raised in every era since the beginning of national television coverage...probably even before.

I subscribe to all facets of Trotsky's manifesto outline.

I would like to see three things:

1) Increase of the game limit to be on par with the rest of the NCAA schools.
2) Allow earlier practice/season starts.
3) Remove the ban on post-season football. It's unnecessary in the age of the Championship Subdivision.

Union still doesn't offer athletic scholarships, and up until 2004, neither did Colgate (leading to this ironic-sounding headline)

Great now the thread has both "manifesto" and "ammonium nitrate" in it. Hello, NSA...

> Remove the ban on post-season football. It's unnecessary in the age of the Championship Subdivision.

I'm sure this has come up before, but would this have ever mattered? Has there ever been an Ivy that would make the FCS playoffs? Or are there conference auto bids?

Edit: yes, I have learned to Google. There are currently 11 conferences with automatic bids. It would be fun to run an Ivy out there to see how far they would get. (Hint: they would get smoked.)

Kyle Rose
There are surely more than enough good hockey players from poor and middle class families.

You say that, but the pay to play model is increasingly pricing out middle class families. Not advocating scholarships for the wealthy or anything, just saying that when it comes to hockey financial aid may not be as helpful as we think.

Trotsky,

Do you know what the average place (or average winning percentage) of the Ivies vs. the non-Ivies has been each year since the ECAC became a 12-team league? My gut feeling is that originally the non-Ivies did better with only Cornell and Harvard usually finishing near the top. More recently the Ivies have finished better.

This year is by no means over although Dartmouth and Princeton do seem pretty bad.

ursusminor
Trotsky,

Do you know what the average place (or average winning percentage) of the Ivies vs. the non-Ivies has been each year since the ECAC became a 12-team league? My gut feeling is that originally the non-Ivies did better with only Cornell and Harvard usually finishing near the top. More recently the Ivies have finished better.

This year is by no means over although Dartmouth and Princeton do seem pretty bad.

I can work it out tonight.

It's a small sample size fluke. Give it time.

But, also raise the games limit and let them start at the same time as everyone else, because why not?

Trotsky
Great now the thread has both "manifesto" and "ammonium nitrate" in it. Hello, NSA...

> Remove the ban on post-season football. It's unnecessary in the age of the Championship Subdivision.

I'm sure this has come up before, but would this have ever mattered? Has there ever been an Ivy that would make the FCS playoffs? Or are there conference auto bids?

Edit: yes, I have learned to Google. There are currently 11 conferences with automatic bids. It would be fun to run an Ivy out there to see how far they would get. (Hint: they would get smoked.)

Hm, I think that in many years the Ivy champion would have a decent shot at winning a first-round game. Patriot League teams win first-round games somewhat frequently, so that's a decent measuring stick.

It is unusual that football alone among the Ivy sports is not allowed into postseason tournaments.

billhoward
It is unusual that football alone among the Ivy sports is not allowed into postseason tournaments.

Unusual that football is kept out of postseason, no. Always has been since the formalization of the league.

Irrational, unjustifiable, and shizophrenic given that other sports are not- yup.

But this is Cornell- who cares about football? It's just something to occupy the lacrosse stadium in the fall semester.

Trotsky

I'm sure this has come up before, but would this have ever mattered? Has there ever been an Ivy that would make the FCS playoffs? Or are there conference auto bids?

Don't be so sure. Recently, in the national poll...

In 2003, Penn finished a 10-0 season ranked #12 in the national polls.
In 2004, Harvard finished a 10-0 season ranked #14

Even this decade:
2010: [www.pennathletics.com]
2011: [www.gocrimson.com]

With the tournament field having 20 teams (expanding to 24 this season), I have no doubts that the top teams of the Ivies can complete at that level and win tournament games. In 2003, Cornell fell to Colgate, 27-24. Colgate went on to lose to Delaware in the National Championship game. Lehigh won a tournament game in both 2010 and 2011.

RichH

Trotsky

I'm sure this has come up before, but would this have ever mattered? Has there ever been an Ivy that would make the FCS playoffs? Or are there conference auto bids?

Don't be so sure. Recently, in the national poll...

In 2003, Penn finished a 10-0 season ranked #12 in the national polls.
In 2004, Harvard finished a 10-0 season ranked #14

Even this decade:
2010: [www.pennathletics.com]
2011: [www.gocrimson.com]

With the tournament field having 20 teams (expanding to 24 this season), I have no doubts that the top teams of the Ivies can complete at that level and win tournament games. In 2003, Cornell fell to Colgate, 27-24. Colgate went on to lose to Delaware in the National Championship game. Lehigh won a tournament game in both 2010 and 2011.

Yes, but you are talking about being nationally competitive in a second teir league. Might as well hand out participation trophies.

ursusminor
Trotsky,

Do you know what the average place (or average winning percentage) of the Ivies vs. the non-Ivies has been each year since the ECAC became a 12-team league? My gut feeling is that originally the non-Ivies did better with only Cornell and Harvard usually finishing near the top. More recently the Ivies have finished better.

This year is by no means over although Dartmouth and Princeton do seem pretty bad.

The linear trendline for the composite Ivy winning percentage during the 27 years of round robin ECAC play has ascended from 45% to 52%; a second-order polynomial line also rises overall but has descended slightly after peaking in 2010. The best years for Ivy performance since 1987 were all within the period 2003-2010: 2003 (59%), 2009 (56%), 2002 (55%), and 2010 (54%). The worst were within the period 1989-1999: 1996 (39%), 1997 and 1989 (42%) and 1999 (44%).

Team	1987	1988	1989	1990	1991	1992	1993	1994	1995	1996	1997	1998	1999	2000	2001	2002	2003	2004	2005	2006	2007	2008	2009	2010	2011	2012	2013
Arm	12	8	13	11	8																						
Brn	18	5	2	19	20	24	28	27	28	16	10	24	15	10	8	22	24	28	20	11	16	15	10	16	18	14	20
Clk	26	23	28	27	32	31	28	30	31	34	34	34	36	21	32	27	21	18	16	20	30	33	20	11	19	22	19
Col	31	27	31	37	22	22	18	22	25	30	23	21	26	30	17	22	21	30	31	30	17	21	17	26	11	23	15
Cor	16	30	26	27	31	24	11	19	20	32	30	19	21	21	25	36	39	29	38	29	24	25	29	31	24	30	19
Drt	5	17	15	12	3	8	18	9	16	14	12	17	14	19	24	23	26	27	28	30	27	15	24	17	26	19	22
Hvd	40	36	40	25	28	32	35	36	25	19	20	21	18	20	26	23	35	22	32	27	22	27	24	17	15	25	14
Prn	15	23	9	23	15	19	15	17	21	13	25	20	27	20	22	22	6	12	14	17	22	28	28	18	24	16	20
Qpc																				17	24	22	21	22	19	23	37
RPI	18	18	18	28	28	16	31	28	23	16	27	26	28	23	24	23	11	27	13	22	17	15	13	23	24	17	27
SLU	30	36	36	26	31	31	26	16	20	33	15	18	33	33	29	20	17	17	19	25	33	16	26	23	13	21	22
Uni						5	6	23	16	11	25	11	4	13	18	19	22	19	17	22	15	25	20	28	36	32	24
Ver	24	29	26	16	26	23	21	26	24	37	29	18	16	8	18	7	16	15	29								
Yal	29	12	20	13	20	29	27	11	15	9	14	35	26	16	21	20	26	20	7	14	17	22	32	32	35	22	25
Total	264	264	264	264	264	264	264	264	264	264	264	264	264	234	264	264	264	264	264	264	264	264	264	264	264	264	264
Ivy	123	123	112	119	117	136	134	119	125	103	111	136	121	106	126	146	156	138	139	128	128	132	147	131	142	126	120

tl;dr: The Ivies are getting better.

Roy 82

RichH

Trotsky

I'm sure this has come up before, but would this have ever mattered? Has there ever been an Ivy that would make the FCS playoffs? Or are there conference auto bids?

Don't be so sure. Recently, in the national poll...

In 2003, Penn finished a 10-0 season ranked #12 in the national polls.
In 2004, Harvard finished a 10-0 season ranked #14

Even this decade:
2010: [www.pennathletics.com]
2011: [www.gocrimson.com]

With the tournament field having 20 teams (expanding to 24 this season), I have no doubts that the top teams of the Ivies can complete at that level and win tournament games. In 2003, Cornell fell to Colgate, 27-24. Colgate went on to lose to Delaware in the National Championship game. Lehigh won a tournament game in both 2010 and 2011.

Yes, but you are talking about being nationally competitive in a second teir league. Might as well hand out participation trophies.

Dude, really? -1

RichH

Roy 82

RichH

Trotsky

I'm sure this has come up before, but would this have ever mattered? Has there ever been an Ivy that would make the FCS playoffs? Or are there conference auto bids?

Don't be so sure. Recently, in the national poll...

In 2003, Penn finished a 10-0 season ranked #12 in the national polls.
In 2004, Harvard finished a 10-0 season ranked #14

Even this decade:
2010: [www.pennathletics.com]
2011: [www.gocrimson.com]

With the tournament field having 20 teams (expanding to 24 this season), I have no doubts that the top teams of the Ivies can complete at that level and win tournament games. In 2003, Cornell fell to Colgate, 27-24. Colgate went on to lose to Delaware in the National Championship game. Lehigh won a tournament game in both 2010 and 2011.

Yes, but you are talking about being nationally competitive in a second teir league. Might as well hand out participation trophies.

Dude, really? -1

For the comment or the spelling error?