Polls 1/19

We move up to #3 in USCHO with five first place votes, jumping over Denver and Northeastern. [www.uscho.com]

USA Today poll not out yet, but it will be here: [www.usatoday.com]

Edit: See redliner's post below. We also moved up two spots to #5.

As pointed out in another thread, we move up one spot to #2 in the INCH Power Rankings: [insidecollegehockey.com]

Of course, all these rankings are meaningless.

ebilmes
Of course, all these rankings are meaningless.

From the perspective of NCAA seeding, yes. But from the perspective of potential recruiting, alumni donations, etc. it can make some difference.

Chris 02

ebilmes
Of course, all these rankings are meaningless.

From the perspective of NCAA seeding, yes. But from the perspective of potential recruiting, alumni donations, etc. it can make some difference.

I encourage everyone to put the label "Obligatory Disclaimer" in front of all "the polls are meaningless" statements so we dont' waste bandwidth discussing their merit again and again.*

* Meta discussions about the desirability of discussing the relative value of polls are a totally different story.

USA Today/USA Hockey Magazine Men's College Hockey Poll is out. Cornell receives 6 first place votes and moves up to 3rd place.

1 University of Notre Dame, 496 (22) 1 19-3-3 15
2 Boston University, 464 (6) 2 16-5-1 15
3 Cornell University, 434 (6) 5 13-1-3 9
4 University of Denver, 394 4 15-6-2 15
5 Northeastern University, 386 3 15-5-2 12
6 University of Minnesota, 336 8 12-5-5 15
7 University of Vermont, 304 7 13-5-3 10
8 University of Michigan, 280 6 16-8-0 15
9 Princeton University, 222 10 13-5-0 14
10 Miami (Ohio) University, 188 9 13-8-3 15
11 The Ohio State University, 156 14 16-6-2 3
12 University of New Hampshire, 154 13 11-6-4 14
13 Colorado College, 132 11 13-8-5 15
14 Boston College, 46 12 9-8-3 15
15 University of North Dakota, 45 NR 14-10-2 6
Others receiving votes: University of Wisconsin, 17; University of Alaska, 9; University of Nebraska Omaha, 9; U.S. Air Force Academy, 2; Michigan State University, 2; Quinnipiac University, 2; Yale University, 2.

[www.dailygazette.com]

redliner
USA Today/USA Hockey Magazine Men's College Hockey Poll is out. Cornell receives 6 first place votes and moves up to 3rd place.

Meaningless.

ftyuv

redliner
USA Today/USA Hockey Magazine Men's College Hockey Poll is out. Cornell receives 6 first place votes and moves up to 3rd place.

Meaningless.

truthiness

For recruiting, our high standing can't hurt. Just as the crazy atmosphere at Lynah can't hurt. But: At Ivy schools, alumni donations are not affected (statistically significantly) by a winning or losing team. You could also argue the opposite: Alumni donations lead to winning teams. The wrestling program was good. Alumni donations got is an awesome wrestling center (without a WASP name no less) and support for the program. And now it's - can this really be true? - ranked No. 2 in the country.

Speaking for myself and a few other alumns, I think we're trying to survive 2009. Making the Frozen Four won't losen pocketbooks sewn shut by the crappy economy.

billhoward
But: At Ivy schools, alumni donations are not affected (statistically significantly) by a winning or losing team.

What's your source for that assertion, Bill?

Although correlation doesn't necessarily imply causation, I've seen a fair amount of evidence that the opposite of what you say is true.

Beeeej

billhoward
But: At Ivy schools, alumni donations are not affected (statistically significantly) by a winning or losing team.

What's your source for that assertion, Bill?

Although correlation doesn't necessarily imply causation, I've seen a fair amount of evidence that the opposite of what you say is true.

Beeeej,
That article is hardly evidence. The stats quoted leave a lot to be desired. I think one bit of evidence to support Bill's contention is how much that is donated to Ivy schools compared to many of the big time athletic schools. And many of those donations are directly to the athletic program. I know that this is not proof, but I've always thought Ivy alumni donate more to the whole U, not just sports. No data however.

Jim Hyla

Beeeej

billhoward
But: At Ivy schools, alumni donations are not affected (statistically significantly) by a winning or losing team.

What's your source for that assertion, Bill?

Although correlation doesn't necessarily imply causation, I've seen a fair amount of evidence that the opposite of what you say is true.

Beeeej,
That article is hardly evidence. The stats quoted leave a lot to be desired. I think one bit of evidence to support Bill's contention is how much that is donated to Ivy schools compared to many of the big time athletic schools. And many of those donations are directly to the athletic program. I know that this is not proof, but I've always thought Ivy alumni donate more to the whole U, not just sports. No data however.

That article is not the only evidence I've seen, it was just the easiest to locate on short notice. Remember, my previous career was as a professional fundraiser, the last two years of which was specifically for athletics programs. It was my business to know a lot of this stuff. Like I said, correlation doesn't necessarily imply causation, but even if these stats don't "prove" anything, they certainly seem to disagree with what Bill said.

"I think one bit of evidence to support Bill's contention is how much that is donated to Ivy schools compared to many of the big time athletic schools. And many of those donations are directly to the athletic program."

I honest to God haven't the faintest idea what you're trying to say here. Please clarify, if you can.

Yawn...another goalie of the week nod for Scrivens:

[ecachockey.com]

Beeeej

Jim Hyla
"I think one bit of evidence to support Bill's contention is how much that is donated to Ivy schools compared to many of the big time athletic schools. And many of those donations are directly to the athletic program."

I honest to God haven't the faintest idea what you're trying to say here. Please clarify, if you can.

Yeah, that was pretty jumbled. Too many thoughts together. Basically, Ivy schools get some of the highest donation amounts compared to other universities. Many of the donations to big time athletic programs go directly to the athletic department, thus not helping the whole university. I don't know, but I doubt that is as true in the Ivy schools. While that doesn't say athletics doesn't matter, I think it has less importance in Ivy schools. Not proof, just a thought along Bill's line.

Jim Hyla

Beeeej

Jim Hyla
"I think one bit of evidence to support Bill's contention is how much that is donated to Ivy schools compared to many of the big time athletic schools. And many of those donations are directly to the athletic program."

I honest to God haven't the faintest idea what you're trying to say here. Please clarify, if you can.

Yeah, that was pretty jumbled. Too many thoughts together. Basically, Ivy schools get some of the highest donation amounts compared to other universities. Many of the donations to big time athletic programs go directly to the athletic department, thus not helping the whole university. I don't know, but I doubt that is as true in the Ivy schools. While that doesn't say athletics doesn't matter, I think it has less importance in Ivy schools. Not proof, just a thought along Bill's line.

Also, the Ivy donation totals are somewhat inflated by donations from people/groups/institutions other than alums. I would assume that THOSE donations would be unaffected by athletic success; the only donations that I would think athletic success could affect would be direct giving by alums, so you'd want to limit any studies on the matter to those types of gifts.

I suspect that the data would be somewhat difficult to process, anyway - I mean, if one guy gives a school $100M to build one hockey rink, what correlations can you draw from that?

Robb
if one guy gives a school $100M to build one hockey rink and make Hitler's birthday a school holiday, what correlations can you draw from that?

FYP

Why do hockey photos like this always make the guys look like they just took their helmets off - even when they have a shirt and tie on? It's like they photoshopped an in-game head photo on a boilerplate body.

And reminds me of the hair product commercial with the tagline "If these guys can't pick up girls, what chance do you have?"

This forum excoriates the Cornell Daily Sun for lapses in grammar and judgment, then uses an article in the Columbia Spectator to discuss a point about fundraising. Hmm.

When looking for links between sports success and donations, you've got to decide if you're talking about all schools, big-time football / basketball schools, or Ivy schools. The Ivies are different. You also need to overlay events of the outside world - Penn talks about a winning football team in the late 1990s and donations going up. That was also the time when all the Wharton School pirates in neckties were cashing in on Wall Street and sending money back to their alma mater. This year, Florida wins the football championship (give or take not playing Utah) yet will probably be hard pressed to match its total alumni contributions of the past year.

What was Cornell's heydey for sports of the past generation? Some might argue it was the Ken Dryden - Ed Marinaro era (also the first ever NCAA lax title), yet Cornell found no increase in donations in that era different from previous years or at other Ivy schools. Cornell did get its first artificial turf out of it, though, and arguably it was hastened by wanting Big Ed to have something nicer to run on his junior and senior years.

Research looking at U.S. colleges / university broadly seems to conclude that if there is a lift, it's at larger schools and pretty much restricted to getting into post-season football and basketball (big public U's) and post-season basketball (private U's).

Some of the research says the money that comes in is restricted donations benefitting sports not the university. (The first Cornell turf field.) Distorted example: T. Boone Pickens gives Oklahoma State $165 million, but it's all for a football stadium / practice facility. Without evidence, I'd argue that at schools such as Cornell, sometimes it's the donation that leads to later success or ongoing success: the wrestling center gets built then Cornell wrestling moves to a higher plane; perhaps endowing the hockey coach's job makes it possible to retain someome like Schafer.

A lot of the scholarly research focuses on impact on money coming in. One area where there is a clearer benefit is a smarter entering class: Post-season success translates into an uptick in applicants. UConn does well in hoops, the next 2-3 years, more HS seniors apply. I bet Davidson had a banner year with applications after its FF appearance. Then the school can be more selective in its admissions.

On a personal level, if you're fundraising, you appeal to whatever appeals to your prospect. If he or she is a sports fan, you'll play up the school's sports successes. And if the prospect makes a donation, you'll feel there's a link.

FWIW, Cornell's new alumni affairs director, Chris Marshall, is spending a lot of time thinking about how to bond alumni and Cornell and one thing he's working on is emphasizing programs that link Cornellians not just be class but by affiliation, and his big three are sports, music, and Greek life.

That was an awful lot of musing for not actually answering my question, Bill.

Beeeej
That was an awful lot of musing for not actually answering my question, Bill.

And this surprises you why?

KeithK

Beeeej
That was an awful lot of musing for not actually answering my question, Bill.

And this surprises you why?

Who said I was surprised? Mostly, I was hungry and a little bit tired.

Beeeej

KeithK

Beeeej
That was an awful lot of musing for not actually answering my question, Bill.

And this surprises you why?

Who said I was surprised? Mostly, I was hungry and a little bit tired.

IS there an emoticon for that yet? Somebody get on it!

KeithK

Beeeej

KeithK

Beeeej
That was an awful lot of musing for not actually answering my question, Bill.

And this surprises you why?

Who said I was surprised? Mostly, I was hungry and a little bit tired.

IS there an emoticon for that yet? Somebody get on it!

For which? The hungry and tired? Or the look one gets when Bill muses on for hundreds of words without addressing the question?

DeltaOne81

KeithK

Beeeej

KeithK

Beeeej
That was an awful lot of musing for not actually answering my question, Bill.

And this surprises you why?

Who said I was surprised? Mostly, I was hungry and a little bit tired.

IS there an emoticon for that yet? Somebody get on it!

For which? The hungry and tired? Or the look one gets when Bill muses on for hundreds of words without addressing the question?

I would use that emoticon all the time. Until one is specifically introduced for that purpose, though, I recommend any or all of the following:

billhoward
A lot of the scholarly research focuses on impact on money coming in. One area where there is a clearer benefit is a smarter entering class: Post-season success translates into an uptick in applicants.

Statistically, one is much more likely to notice this with a school like Davidson than Cornell. Serious applicants to Cornell and actual Cornell admissions are already such a narrow band on bounded academic criteria that any significant change in academic qualifications would be unlikely to show up.

I am pretty sure that Davidson failed to make the final four. George Mason was the last real upset to make the final four, and I recall a report indicating that applications were way up in the following year.

Down to #4 on USCHO... don't want to start another thread

Northeastern (#7 in the PWR) is a bit overrated right now. Everything is acceptable to me.

Oat
Northeastern (#7 in the PWR) is a bit overrated right now. Everything is acceptable to me.

SIMPLE MATH!!!!!!111111

Wait. Sorry, I was channeling USCHO.