WCHA Expansion Moratorium Lifted

The vote was 10-0. Bemidji will likely apply for admission soon.
[www.grandforksherald.com]

Let the realignment speculation begin.

There was an article in "The Ithaca Journal" in the past few days that discussed this topic, and the possibility of Niagara joining the ECAC. It sounded like Coach Schafer was in favor of it, but that many of the other coaches did not want to travel as far West as Niagara. Until reading the last part of the article, my thought was, "what will this mean to the travelling pair setup the ECAC has now." But a quote from Schafer makes it sound like the answer would be a 2-game series played at Niagara one year and at the other school the next year.

Chris '03
The vote was 10-0. Bemidji will likely apply for admission soon.
[www.grandforksherald.com]

Let the realignment speculation begin.

Likely is probably too mild they are already to do it.

Personally, I'm really enthusiastic about the possibility of ECAC expansion. It will require the Ivies to look at their number of games.

Jim Hyla
Personally, I'm really enthusiastic about the possibility of ECAC expansion. It will require the Ivies to look at their number of games.

"Oh, look! A 29!"

andyw2100
There was an article in "The Ithaca Journal" in the past few days that discussed this topic, and the possibility of Niagara joining the ECAC. It sounded like Coach Schafer was in favor of it, but that many of the other coaches did not want to travel as far West as Niagara. Until reading the last part of the article, my thought was, "what will this mean to the travelling pair setup the ECAC has now." But a quote from Schafer makes it sound like the answer would be a 2-game series played at Niagara one year and at the other school the next year.

That might appease some of the travel concerns -- I'd rather see RIT in the ECAC & let Niagara slide into the AHA.

Jim Hyla

Chris '03
The vote was 10-0. Bemidji will likely apply for admission soon.
[www.grandforksherald.com]

Let the realignment speculation begin.

Likely is probably too mild they are already to do it.

It's probably a foregone conclusion that the WCHA will accept Bemidji. Why go through the process of lifting the moratorium if they don't plan to expand? Bemidji is the most obvious addition, has stated interest in the WCHA for years and already is a member of the women's WCHA.

With the CHA terminal that leaves Niagara, RMU and UAH homeless. RMU and Niagara might be able to catch on somewhere as a pair although their location would be a big stumbling block. I just don't see Huntsville fitting anywhere. Then again, Atlantic Hockey took in Air Force so maybe UAh would work too. AF appears to be doing the two game set, alternating years thing in AH.

ithacat
That might appease some of the travel concerns -- I'd rather see RIT in the ECAC & let Niagara slide into the AHA.

What of the possibility of having both? They're near each other so they're natural traveling partners and that would also free up a slot for Alabama in the AHA.

This would of course serve to make the ECAC HUGE, and I'm not sure if that's a good thing.

nr53
[Adding both Niagara and RIT] would of course serve to make the ECAC HUGE, and I'm not sure if that's a good thing.

I would be very wary of growing the ECAc beyond it's current size. The larger it gets the mroe likely that we'll end up with divisions. Divisions probably means we play mostly Ivy teams, which increases the likelihood that someday the league would split leaving us playing in a six team Ivy League.

Maybe that's me just being overly paranoid but I really like having Cornell play in a bigger league than just the Ivies in hockey.

I'd hate to see a 14 team ECAC. It just seems to big. I'm having a hard time thinking that there's going to be much willingness for major realignment under current economic conditions though. I think it's more likely to end ugly for at least one CHA team.
Here's one reasonable way to shuffle things up within reason.

Bemidji-->WCHA (obvious)
UNO---->WCHA (makes sense as a 12th)
RMU--->CCHA (closest orphan geographically)
RIT--->ECAC (makes sense if you pull in niagara)
Niagara->ECAC (works for everyone but eastern ivies)
Union--->AHA (might they win a playoff series?)
Q-->HEA (academically an ecac outsider. Is a wanna be HEA type school)
UConn-->HEA (women already there, fits the HEA profile. there's 0 institutional support though and they'd get beat like a rented mule- they basically do in AHA)
UAH--->AHA (they've gotta go somewhere. It's them or RMU to CCHA and the other goes AHA)

WCHA-12
CCHA-12
ECAC-12
HEA- 12
AHA- 10

HEA would be most likely to balk at this or any expansion (as might some of the schools being shuffled) but it would be reasonably even and wouldn't break up the academies, which is the key stumbling block to AFA-->WCHA. I just can't see Army going WCHA with them. Princeton and RPI would make a less than ideal travel partnership but until Penn brings back hockey Princeton is pretty isolated in NJ.

KeithK
I would be very wary of growing the ECAc beyond it's current size. The larger it gets the mroe likely that we'll end up with divisions. Divisions probably means we play mostly Ivy teams, which increases the likelihood that someday the league would split leaving us playing in a six team Ivy League.

Maybe that's me just being overly paranoid but I really like having Cornell play in a bigger league than just the Ivies in hockey.

Agreed, right down the line.

RIT--->ECAC (makes sense if you pull in niagara)

I wouldn't mind seeing RIT and Niagara in the league, especially as the game at RIT in the Blue Cross Arena last year had a rather fun atmosphere. But I suspect that RIT is trying to grow its new rivalry with Canisius.

The other thing to consider is that with the recent athletic success that UB has had, coupled with the fact that Buffalo is quickly becoming hockey obsessed, I wouldn't be surprised to see UB try to bring back Div I hockey within five to ten years.

Divisions probably means we play mostly Ivy teams, which increases the likelihood that someday the league would split leaving us playing in a six team Ivy League. Maybe that's me just being overly paranoid but I really like having Cornell play in a bigger league than just the Ivies in hockey.

I don't think I would mind seeing an Ivy-only league, especially if Yale, Dartmouth, Princeton, and Harvard... okay not this year... all kept up the quality of their programs and Penn considered adding a team. We would still be able to the play the traditional rivalry games against the likes of Clarkson and Colgate, and it would give us a little bit more flexibility to schedule OOC games every year. Although now that I think about it, it would be one less banner we could hang up in Lynah...

I'm sorry but I do not understand why people are so eager to add Niagara to the ECAC. All they'd do is weaken our already weak SOS. Niagara and RIT just are not good hockey programs over the long haul in DI. I think RIT has a chance to be competitive, but we need fewer conference games, not more. We can't get any OOC games because we have so many in conference games which fill us up to near our limit.

I love some of our rivalries in the ECAC, but I'd be just fine with an Ivy Ice Hockey Conference. We could get a better SOS with Ivy games and a lot of OOC games with better teams.

I'd really much prefer we got rid of 2 or 4 teams from the ECAC and had more strong non-conference opponents. Honestly, I miss Vermont and wish we had them back in the conference not QU and i certainly don't want Niagara or RIT.

CUontheslopes
we need fewer conference games, not more. We can't get any OOC games because we have so many in conference games which fill us up to near our limit.

If we had fewer conference games we'd probably end up playing more games against ECAC teams to fill up our schedule. Look at schedules in the ECAC - you have a lot of in conference non-confs. There just aren't that many open non-conf games "available" and the other restrictions (e.g. Michigan won't travel) make it hard to schedule top teams. The situation would be better if the Ivies eliminated the late start date because it's easier to find non-conf games before the season starts. But if we simply cut the league slate to 18 games (for instance) we wouldn't suddenly have a great SoS.

Besides, the ECAC home and home round robin is perfect. Why would you want to mess that up just to try to game the tournament seeding process?

CUontheslopes
I'm sorry but I do not understand why people are so eager to add Niagara to the ECAC. All they'd do is weaken our already weak SOS. Niagara and RIT just are not good hockey programs over the long haul in DI. I think RIT has a chance to be competitive, but we need fewer conference games, not more. We can't get any OOC games because we have so many in conference games which fill us up to near our limit.

I love some of our rivalries in the ECAC, but I'd be just fine with an Ivy Ice Hockey Conference. We could get a better SOS with Ivy games and a lot of OOC games with better teams.

I'd really much prefer we got rid of 2 or 4 teams from the ECAC and had more strong non-conference opponents. Honestly, I miss Vermont and wish we had them back in the conference not QU and i certainly don't want Niagara or RIT.

I'd like it because of

Jim Hyla
Personally, I'm really enthusiastic about the possibility of ECAC expansion. It will require the Ivies to look at their number of games.

I can't imagine the Ivy coaches agreeing to expand unless they can add games to their schedule. If we already play teams like Niagara, why not have them in conference. Then if we get more games, we probably would need to start earlier like the rest of the ECAC and might schedule other strong teams.

Bobby Mo makes a good travel partner with Mercyhurst, and Niagara with Canisius. Put them both in AHA. Move UNO to the WCHA and put UAH in the CCHA. End of story.

Although what do we do with Penn State and Syracuse?

Tangential question: does the CHA still have it's tournament autobid? If it does, when will it go away?

I'm right with Jim on this one. We play Niagara every year on our own accord, so, for completely selfish reasons, why not make them part of the conference schedule?

And then there's this misconception:

CUontheslopes
I'm sorry but I do not understand why people are so eager to add Niagara to the ECAC. All they'd do is weaken our already weak SOS. Niagara and RIT just are not good hockey programs over the long haul in DI. I think RIT has a chance to be competitive, but we need fewer conference games, not more.

Niagara would not weaken our SOS any more than having to play Union (usually); Clarkson, Harvard, and RPI (currently); or Brown (almost perpetually). I think adding Niagara would be like adding another Quinnipiac, a school that, perhaps, doesn't fit with the rest of the league in an academic sense but that would quickly come up to speed in the hockey sense. If we could drop Union... now that would be a net gain. RIT would, for unfortunately similar reasons to Union's predicament, not be a good bet. Since RIT is a D-III school playing up, they can't give out scholarships. And since they don't have the academic reputation of an Ivy... etc., etc.

To back up my assumptions, I went back and looked at some historical KRACH data. I looked at two things: (1) how well Niagara would've done in a hypothetical 13-team ECAC, and (2) whether playing Niagara helped or hurt our SOS.

	Place	Cr SOS   Ni KRACH
=================================
2000	  4   	  n/a      n/a	
2001	 12   	  n/       n/a	
2002	 12  	 88.2	  42.82
2003     12   	161.5	  39.78
2004      8   	 95.91	  83.54
2005     11   	118.5	  39.22
2006      7   	101.5	  82.91
2007      7      98.67	  96.93
2008      6	 93.81	  97.14
2009      9	 85.9	 129.8

(I looked for KRACH all the way to 1997—Niagara's first year—in the hockey-l archives, but I couldn't find it. Maybe it's buried in info-hockey-l archives that may or may not exist. If anyone has KRACH rankings earlier than those available from John on TBRW, which run back to 2000, I'd love to see them.)

So, one can look at that table and see that Niagara would not have done horribly in the ECAC over the last few years. Yes, they seem to have had some sort of collapse after that first appearance in the NCAAs, but they've come back to respectable levels; indeed, they never "would have been" last.

As far as SOS goes, we do seem to take a hit by playing them, but it's not like there's a Michigan available to join the league. Some ECAC teams have done poorly over the same time period. We've taken a hit by playing them too.

I don't know. To my mind, I think that college hockey, as a whole, has a responsibility to save these teams. The WCHA is doing its part with Bemidji. AH will probably do its part. Why shouldn't we? Not being able to take Bemidji, Niagara is the best of what's left.

KeithK
Tangential question: does the CHA still have it's tournament autobid? If it does, when will it go away?

An unsourced comment on an USCHO thread said that recent NCAA legislation allows smaller sports (like hockey) to determine autobids independent of general criteria. If that's the case, the sport's leadership (tourney committee?) could award the bid year after year if it wanted. I'm certain they have the bid this year. I'm not sure where it stands beyond that. I'm guessing they're being strung along year by year though.

KeithK
the ECAC home and home round robin is perfect.

This is true. The ECAC beats out every other sport at every level for elegance points.

mnagowski

RIT--->ECAC (makes sense if you pull in niagara)

I wouldn't mind seeing RIT and Niagara in the league, especially as the game at RIT in the Blue Cross Arena last year had a rather fun atmosphere. But I suspect that RIT is trying to grow its new rivalry with Canisius.

The game at BCA last year was fun, other than the fact Cornell fans were largely outnumbered by RIT fans, and the Tigers mauled the Red. RIT did a good job generating atmosphere -- a bit cheesy perhaps, but the give away orange t-shirts worked and I believe the campus ran complimentary bus service. I do believe RIT's big rival from their old D3 days is Union. Niagara and Canisius are already rivals.

Since Vermont's not coming back to the ECAC, maybe Hockey East & AHA trade Merrimack and UConn (women already play in HE) and then allow Quinny to join HE -- this leaves one HE spot open for the future program at Syracuse...the ECAC allows RIT to join...the WCHA allows Air Force and Bemidji State to join...the AHA allows Robert Morris, Niagara, and Alabama-Hunstville to join...

HE = 11 (+1)
ECAC = 12 (net 0)
WCHA = 12 (+2)
AHA = 11 (+1)
CCHA = 12 (nc)

mnagowski
[The other thing to consider is that with the recent athletic success that UB has had, coupled with the fact that Buffalo is quickly becoming hockey obsessed, I wouldn't be surprised to see UB try to bring back Div I hockey within five to ten years.

I'd love to see it...save that one for the next round of expansion. However, as a MAC school, UB to the CCHA would make sense.

Scersk '97
I'm right with Jim on this one. We play Niagara every year on our own accord, so, for completely selfish reasons, why not make them part of the conference schedule?

And then there's this misconception:

CUontheslopes
I'm sorry but I do not understand why people are so eager to add Niagara to the ECAC. All they'd do is weaken our already weak SOS. Niagara and RIT just are not good hockey programs over the long haul in DI. I think RIT has a chance to be competitive, but we need fewer conference games, not more.

Niagara would not weaken our SOS any more than having to play Union (usually); Clarkson, Harvard, and RPI (currently); or Brown (almost perpetually). I think adding Niagara would be like adding another Quinnipiac, a school that, perhaps, doesn't fit with the rest of the league in an academic sense but that would quickly come up to speed in the hockey sense. If we could drop Union... now that would be a net gain. RIT would, for unfortunately similar reasons to Union's predicament, not be a good bet. Since RIT is a D-III school playing up, they can't give out scholarships. And since they don't have the academic reputation of an Ivy... etc., etc.

To back up my assumptions, I went back and looked at some historical KRACH data. I looked at two things: (1) how well Niagara would've done in a hypothetical 13-team ECAC, and (2) whether playing Niagara helped or hurt our SOS.

	Place	Cr SOS   Ni KRACH
=================================
2000	  4   	  n/a      n/a	
2001	 12   	  n/       n/a	
2002	 12  	 88.2	  42.82
2003     12   	161.5	  39.78
2004      8   	 95.91	  83.54
2005     11   	118.5	  39.22
2006      7   	101.5	  82.91
2007      7      98.67	  96.93
2008      6	 93.81	  97.14
2009      9	 85.9	 129.8

(I looked for KRACH all the way to 1997—Niagara's first year—in the hockey-l archives, but I couldn't find it. Maybe it's buried in info-hockey-l archives that may or may not exist. If anyone has KRACH rankings earlier than those available from John on TBRW, which run back to 2000, I'd love to see them.)

So, one can look at that table and see that Niagara would not have done horribly in the ECAC over the last few years. Yes, they seem to have had some sort of collapse after that first appearance in the NCAAs, but they've come back to respectable levels; indeed, they never "would have been" last.

As far as SOS goes, we do seem to take a hit by playing them, but it's not like there's a Michigan available to join the league. Some ECAC teams have done poorly over the same time period. We've taken a hit by playing them too.

I don't know. To my mind, I think that college hockey, as a whole, has a responsibility to save these teams. The WCHA is doing its part with Bemidji. AH will probably do its part. Why shouldn't we? Not being able to take Bemidji, Niagara is the best of what's left.

It's no misconception. To say that they're "no worse than" teams in the bottom half of our conference is like saying well the Big 12 should add another team like Baylor or Iowa State - the traditional punching bags for the rest of the league. Why should we take someone else's scraps? Hockey East stole Vermont, They didn't steal our worst team, but rather one that, while down on its luck at the time, was a traditional national power.

Niagara has never been good (a national power like us or dare I say Clarkson or more recently Princeton) nor do I see them being good in the future. Clarkson may be having a down year, but they've made the tourney and been ranked in the top 10. Same goes for a lot of the schools in the ECAC. I'm completely against adding another bottom feeder to the conference. I can't understand how anyone would like us to play more games against the Robert Morris-es of the world. How about we schedule some home games with Michigan, Wisconsin, Minnesota, UNH, Notre Dame, etc.

CUontheslopes
I can't understand how anyone would like us to play more games against the Robert Morris-es of the world. How about we schedule some home games with Michigan, Wisconsin, Minnesota, UNH, Notre Dame, etc.

You make it sound so easy. UNH I could see coming here as a home and home at some point. The others, maybe not ND, are a pipe dream. Between limited NC games, the CHS, the GLI, and desire to maximize gate and never travel, Wisconsin, Minnesota and Michigan aren't coming to Lynah unless it's for the Frozen Four or is somehow exempted. You could probably count on one hand the number of games those three have played in the east in the last five years. You'd probably have to go back a long ways to see the last time they came to an ecac school.

ithacat
Since Vermont's not coming back to the ECAC, maybe Hockey East & AHA trade Merrimack and UConn (women already play in HE) and then allow Quinny to join HE -- this leaves one HE spot open for the future program at Syracuse...the ECAC allows RIT to join...the WCHA allows Air Force and Bemidji State to join...the AHA allows Robert Morris, Niagara, and Alabama-Hunstville to join...

Why does Hockey East get Syracuse? They're a much better geographical fit for the ECAC.

CUontheslopes
It's no misconception. To say that they're "no worse than" teams in the bottom half of our conference is like saying well the Big 12 should add another team like Baylor or Iowa State - the traditional punching bags for the rest of the league. Why should we take someone else's scraps? Hockey East stole Vermont, They didn't steal our worst team, but rather one that, while down on its luck at the time, was a traditional national power.

Vermont has never won so much as a conference championship. They came in first in the regular season once, they've advanced in the NCAA tournament once. They're hardly a traditional national power.

Josh '99

CUontheslopes
It's no misconception. To say that they're "no worse than" teams in the bottom half of our conference is like saying well the Big 12 should add another team like Baylor or Iowa State - the traditional punching bags for the rest of the league. Why should we take someone else's scraps? Hockey East stole Vermont, They didn't steal our worst team, but rather one that, while down on its luck at the time, was a traditional national power.

Vermont has never won so much as a conference championship. They came in first in the regular season once, they've advanced in the NCAA tournament once. They're hardly a traditional national power.

The Cats were a national contender for one brief period of time when Martin St. Louis and Eric Perrin played for them. Other than that they've been rather mediocre, hardly a powerhouse. See [www.collegehockeynews.com]

CUontheslopes
NI can't understand how anyone would like us to play more games against the Robert Morris-es of the world. How about we schedule some home games with Michigan, Wisconsin, Minnesota, UNH, Notre Dame, etc.

I agree! And how about I schedule some more dates with rich supermodels and hot Hollywood actresses!

The difficulty of scheduling home games with top teams has been discussed many times on this board. Wishing for home games against Michigan isn't going to make it happen. No matter how much you may want it to.

CUontheslopes
iagara has never been good (a national power like us or dare I say Clarkson or more recently Princeton) nor do I see them being good in the future.

Princeton is good this season and was last season. But they've finished above .500 in one season in the last decade (last year) and other than the Jeff Halpern years have been terrible since before most of us were born. Niagara has more tournament appearances than Princeton (4 to 2, admittedly helped by the CHA bid) and more tournament success (1 win to none). I see little reason to expect that Princeton would be better over the long haul than Niagara if both played in the same league, unless maybe you consider the head coaches (Gadowsky does seem pretty good).

KeithK
And how about I schedule some more dates with rich supermodels and hot Hollywood actresses!

More?

CUontheslopes
Niagara has never been good (a national power like us or dare I say Clarkson or more recently Princeton) nor do I see them being good in the future.... I'm completely against adding another bottom feeder to the conference.

Other posters have dealt with other portions of what you've written, so I'll restrict myself to this part.

Do I want to add "another" bottom feeder? (By the way, "another?" Who was the first one? The obvious answer is Union, but, as I wrote, that's a different situation entirely.) No, I would never want to add a bottom feeder to the conference.

What we'll have to disagree on is whether Niagara would be a bottom feeder. With the (perhaps a bit dubious) caché of ECAC membership, I think Niagara would attract better recruits and soon be a strong member. Given the potential market (Niagara Falls and Buffalo) and Niagara's seeming commitment to "fielding" a scholarship squad, I think Niagara would be an excellent addition to the league. If RIT were able to give scholarships, I think adding that adding them and Niagara would be a no-brainer.

Josh '99

ithacat
Since Vermont's not coming back to the ECAC, maybe Hockey East & AHA trade Merrimack and UConn (women already play in HE) and then allow Quinny to join HE -- this leaves one HE spot open for the future program at Syracuse...the ECAC allows RIT to join...the WCHA allows Air Force and Bemidji State to join...the AHA allows Robert Morris, Niagara, and Alabama-Hunstville to join...

Why does Hockey East get Syracuse? They're a much better geographical fit for the ECAC.

True. Economics could also dictate where any future Syracuse program might align itself. Syracuse, however, dreams big when it comes to sports -- ECAC schools don't. Athletically, Syracuse has more in common with HE or CCHA schools than anyone in the ECAC. The reality, of course, would be that they would probably go to any conference willing to take them.

As of noon today, Syracuse had sold more than 29,000 tickets to its basketball game against Notre Dame on Saturday. Does that sound like an ECAC school?

ithacat

Josh '99

ithacat
Since Vermont's not coming back to the ECAC, maybe Hockey East & AHA trade Merrimack and UConn (women already play in HE) and then allow Quinny to join HE -- this leaves one HE spot open for the future program at Syracuse...the ECAC allows RIT to join...the WCHA allows Air Force and Bemidji State to join...the AHA allows Robert Morris, Niagara, and Alabama-Hunstville to join...

Why does Hockey East get Syracuse? They're a much better geographical fit for the ECAC.

True. Economics could also dictate where any future Syracuse program might align itself. Syracuse, however, dreams big when it comes to sports -- ECAC schools don't. Athletically, Syracuse has more in common with HE or CCHA schools than anyone in the ECAC. The reality, of course, would be that they would probably go to any conference willing to take them.

As of noon today, Syracuse had sold more than 29,000 tickets to its basketball game against Notre Dame on Saturday. Does that sound like an ECAC school?

I don't know, does it sound like a HE school?

Al DeFlorio

KeithK
And how about I schedule some more dates with rich supermodels and hot Hollywood actresses!

More?

Hehe. I was wondering if anyone would call bullshit on that.

Jim Hyla

ithacat

Josh '99

ithacat
Since Vermont's not coming back to the ECAC, maybe Hockey East & AHA trade Merrimack and UConn (women already play in HE) and then allow Quinny to join HE -- this leaves one HE spot open for the future program at Syracuse...the ECAC allows RIT to join...the WCHA allows Air Force and Bemidji State to join...the AHA allows Robert Morris, Niagara, and Alabama-Hunstville to join...

Why does Hockey East get Syracuse? They're a much better geographical fit for the ECAC.

True. Economics could also dictate where any future Syracuse program might align itself. Syracuse, however, dreams big when it comes to sports -- ECAC schools don't. Athletically, Syracuse has more in common with HE or CCHA schools than anyone in the ECAC. The reality, of course, would be that they would probably go to any conference willing to take them.

As of noon today, Syracuse had sold more than 29,000 tickets to its basketball game against Notre Dame on Saturday. Does that sound like an ECAC school?

I don't know, does it sound like a HE school?

It sure as heck doesn't sound like an ECAC school.

ithacat

Jim Hyla

ithacat

Josh '99

ithacat
Since Vermont's not coming back to the ECAC, maybe Hockey East & AHA trade Merrimack and UConn (women already play in HE) and then allow Quinny to join HE -- this leaves one HE spot open for the future program at Syracuse...the ECAC allows RIT to join...the WCHA allows Air Force and Bemidji State to join...the AHA allows Robert Morris, Niagara, and Alabama-Hunstville to join...

Why does Hockey East get Syracuse? They're a much better geographical fit for the ECAC.

True. Economics could also dictate where any future Syracuse program might align itself. Syracuse, however, dreams big when it comes to sports -- ECAC schools don't. Athletically, Syracuse has more in common with HE or CCHA schools than anyone in the ECAC. The reality, of course, would be that they would probably go to any conference willing to take them.

As of noon today, Syracuse had sold more than 29,000 tickets to its basketball game against Notre Dame on Saturday. Does that sound like an ECAC school?

I don't know, does it sound like a HE school?

It sure as heck doesn't sound like an ECAC school.

If anything it sounds like a CCHA school, I suppose.

KeithK
I see little reason to expect that Princeton would be better over the long haul than Niagara if both played in the same league, unless maybe you consider the head coaches (Gadowsky does seem pretty good).

I dunno.... I mean, if you're evaluating the future prospects of Princeton, you have to bear in mind that they've got that crazy financial aid situation where you're giving out tons of grants so that a lot of students aren't paying anything. If they're offering a Princeton education accompanied by a financial commitment that's in the ballpark of a scholarship school, that's going to attract a lot of players.

Josh '99

ithacat

Jim Hyla

ithacat

Josh '99
Why does Hockey East get Syracuse? They're a much better geographical fit for the ECAC.

True. Economics could also dictate where any future Syracuse program might align itself. Syracuse, however, dreams big when it comes to sports -- ECAC schools don't. Athletically, Syracuse has more in common with HE or CCHA schools than anyone in the ECAC. The reality, of course, would be that they would probably go to any conference willing to take them.

As of noon today, Syracuse had sold more than 29,000 tickets to its basketball game against Notre Dame on Saturday. Does that sound like an ECAC school?

I don't know, does it sound like a HE school?

It sure as heck doesn't sound like an ECAC school.

If anything it sounds like a CCHA school, I suppose.

Sounds like a safety school to me..

Oat

Josh '99

ithacat

Jim Hyla

ithacat

Josh '99
Why does Hockey East get Syracuse? They're a much better geographical fit for the ECAC.

True. Economics could also dictate where any future Syracuse program might align itself. Syracuse, however, dreams big when it comes to sports -- ECAC schools don't. Athletically, Syracuse has more in common with HE or CCHA schools than anyone in the ECAC. The reality, of course, would be that they would probably go to any conference willing to take them.

As of noon today, Syracuse had sold more than 29,000 tickets to its basketball game against Notre Dame on Saturday. Does that sound like an ECAC school?

I don't know, does it sound like a HE school?

It sure as heck doesn't sound like an ECAC school.

If anything it sounds like a CCHA school, I suppose.

Sounds like a safety school to me..

Well jeez, that could be Hockey East or the CCHA or the WCHA or half of the ECAC!

Josh '99

KeithK
I see little reason to expect that Princeton would be better over the long haul than Niagara if both played in the same league, unless maybe you consider the head coaches (Gadowsky does seem pretty good).

I dunno.... I mean, if you're evaluating the future prospects of Princeton, you have to bear in mind that they've got that crazy financial aid situation where you're giving out tons of grants so that a lot of students aren't paying anything. If they're offering a Princeton education accompanied by a financial commitment that's in the ballpark of a scholarship school, that's going to attract a lot of players.

Good point. The financial side might come out even there. On the other hand, Princeton needs to find kids who can play hockey and handle high level academics so that limits the available talent pool. Now Harvard has always managed to recruit enough players like this but they have a strong hockey tradition (even if they do, of course, suck).

it would be appropriate for niagara to join the ecac after we move out of buffalo

Scersk '97

CUontheslopes
Niagara has never been good (a national power like us or dare I say Clarkson or more recently Princeton) nor do I see them being good in the future.... I'm completely against adding another bottom feeder to the conference.

Other posters have dealt with other portions of what you've written, so I'll restrict myself to this part.

Do I want to add "another" bottom feeder? (By the way, "another?" Who was the first one? The obvious answer is Union, but, as I wrote, that's a different situation entirely.) No, I would never want to add a bottom feeder to the conference.

What we'll have to disagree on is whether Niagara would be a bottom feeder. With the (perhaps a bit dubious) caché of ECAC membership, I think Niagara would attract better recruits and soon be a strong member. Given the potential market (Niagara Falls and Buffalo) and Niagara's seeming commitment to "fielding" a scholarship squad, I think Niagara would be an excellent addition to the league. If RIT were able to give scholarships, I think adding that adding them and Niagara would be a no-brainer.

The issue ought not to be if they would be at the absolute bottom of the conference. Instead, the issue ought to be if, over the long run, they would be above or below the current average, thereby pulling the entire conference up or down. The ECAC needs a school like Colorado College -- strong hockey and academics -- in the northeast.

Josh '99
I dunno.... I mean, if you're evaluating the future prospects of Princeton, you have to bear in mind that they've got that crazy financial aid situation where you're giving out tons of grants so that a lot of students aren't paying anything. If they're offering a Princeton education accompanied by a financial commitment that's in the ballpark of a scholarship school, that's going to attract a lot of players.

I wonder how their endowment is doing. Cornell's hit a little speed bump:
[www.cnbc.com]

Swampy
The issue ought not to be if they would be at the absolute bottom of the conference. Instead, the issue ought to be if, over the long run, they would be above or below the current average, thereby pulling the entire conference up or down.

I agree, actually. In the quality-of-hockey sense, I believe that Niagara would eventually be an above-average member. ( )

Swampy
The ECAC needs a school like Colorado College -- strong hockey and academics -- in the northeast.

Well, and I'd like BU and BC to come back to the league, but wishing isn't going to make it happen. Amongst the schools who could be "available" in the future, RIT is the only one that fits the strong academics criterion. As an engineering school, I think it also fits the "flavor" of the league. But they can't offer scholarships, and that decision by the D-III membership is unlikely to be revisited. So, unless they take their whole athletic program D-I (which there was some talk about at some point), RIT will not satisfy the strong hockey criterion.

Looking through the D-III NESCAC and ECAC West, I don't see any schools that would fit the criteria and are likely to go D-I.

So, if we're going to help save these programs, who should we take? Until the point when this magical school appears, I think taking in Niagara is worth it.

nyc94

Josh '99
I dunno.... I mean, if you're evaluating the future prospects of Princeton, you have to bear in mind that they've got that crazy financial aid situation where you're giving out tons of grants so that a lot of students aren't paying anything. If they're offering a Princeton education accompanied by a financial commitment that's in the ballpark of a scholarship school, that's going to attract a lot of players.

I wonder how their endowment is doing. Cornell's hit a little speed bump:
[www.cnbc.com]

So did Princeton's:

[www.nj.com]

For that matter, so have the endowments of most educational institutions. What's been happening the past several months is a bit beyond most managers' ability to hedge against.

Chris '03

KeithK
Tangential question: does the CHA still have it's tournament autobid? If it does, when will it go away?

An unsourced comment on an USCHO thread said that recent NCAA legislation allows smaller sports (like hockey) to determine autobids independent of general criteria. If that's the case, the sport's leadership (tourney committee?) could award the bid year after year if it wanted. I'm certain they have the bid this year. I'm not sure where it stands beyond that. I'm guessing they're being strung along year by year though.

That is not really true.

In reaction to what was said upthread ... just as a reminder ... no school is going to move conferences just because we think it's a good idea, or because it's convenient to some master scheme. Teams will move if it's in their best interests, period. So all talk of any team moving conferences in order to accommodate the grand plan, is pretty useless.

Shameless plugs:
[www.collegehockeynews.com]
[www.collegehockeynews.com]

adamw
So all talk of any team moving conferences in order to accommodate the grand plan, is pretty useless.

Adam, your input is great, but please - you're trying to talk sense to a group that regularly debates the wisdom of poll results as if rationale, motivation, and intelligence (or lack thereof) can be attributed to calculations based on the mathematical aggregation of what fifty individuals had for breakfast on any given Sunday.

Anybody care to explain the CNBC graphic:

Headline: University Endowments

SubHead: Growing their hedge fund portfolios

60% of largest endowments have allocated $23B since '06

(emoticon of question mark indicating confusion, and head banging against wall)

adamw
In reaction to what was said upthread ... just as a reminder ... no school is going to move conferences just because we think it's a good idea, or because it's convenient to some master scheme. Teams will move if it's in their best interests, period. So all talk of any team moving conferences in order to accommodate the grand plan, is pretty useless.

Shameless plugs:
[www.collegehockeynews.com]
[www.collegehockeynews.com]

Fine...now can we get back to debating which conference gets a team that doesn't yet exist?

Beeeej
... the mathematical aggregation of what fifty individuals had for breakfast on any given Sunday.

Whelan's got a chart for that, right?

ugarte

Beeeej
... the mathematical aggregation of what fifty individuals had for breakfast on any given Sunday.

Whelan's got a chart for that, right?

I was sitting by the pool of our conference hotel this evening debating the BCS with a colleague, and said "But with Bayesian statistics we can solve the problem!" My former boss was walking towards us, and turned around and walked away.

jtwcornell91

ugarte

Beeeej
... the mathematical aggregation of what fifty individuals had for breakfast on any given Sunday.

Whelan's got a chart for that, right?

I was sitting by the pool of our conference hotel this evening debating the BCS with a colleague, and said "But with Bayesian statistics we can solve the problem!" My former boss was walking towards us, and turned around and walked away.

Yeah, and a few weeks ago an accountant told me that there's nothing intrinsically problematic about credit default swaps since, with proper actuarial methods, one can accurately factor in the risk!

Looks like Atlantic Hockey is considering Niagara and Robert Morris as reported on CHN.

www.chn.com

Chris 02
Looks like Atlantic Hockey is considering Niagara and Robert Morris as reported on CHN.

www.chn.com

[www.uscho.com]

ithacat

Chris 02
Looks like Atlantic Hockey is considering Niagara and Robert Morris as reported on CHN.

www.chn.com

[www.uscho.com]

Sorry, Alabama-Huntsville. It looks like it will take a miracle to save that program. Something along the lines of UNO to WCHA, UAH to CCHA. It's really unlikely though. Maybe they can pull in a couple Canadian schools (with enough money and desire to travel to alabama) and form another start up conference if BSU is turned down by the WCHA.

ithacat

Chris 02
Looks like Atlantic Hockey is considering Niagara and Robert Morris as reported on CHN.

www.chn.com

[www.uscho.com]

It would be nice if one of the CCHA teams (UN-O, Alaska or NMU) would move to the WCHA so that Alabama-Huntsville would have a conference to call home.

Nebraska-Omaha would seem to be the logical choice. Geographically, Alaska and NMU would also fit, but they seem to have more historical ties to the CCHA.

Since the AHA is taking Niagara (and eliminating the possibility of a 13 team ECACHL), maybe the Ivies can "give a little" and let the teams play a few more games. I know, keep dreaming.

Chris '03
...if BSU is turned down by the WCHA.

I can't imagine that'll happen. Wasn't letting BSU join the whole reason for lifting the expansion moratorium?

Josh '99

Chris '03
...if BSU is turned down by the WCHA.

I can't imagine that'll happen. Wasn't letting BSU join the whole reason for lifting the expansion moratorium?

Letting them say their piece was the reason for lifting the moratorium. In the current economic climate, I'd say it's far from a done deal. Other small schools in the WCHA have very little to gain from games with BSU and the conference slate isn't going to get bigger than the 27 they already play. It's fewer games against the name brand schools, one more school in the way of a home playoff series, one more direct recruiting competitor, etc. BSU doesn't have the same carrot the Alaska schools could dangle to make it worth their while. If they're admitted it's for the good of the game as much as anything.