Recruiting

I noticed on the Inside College Hockey site the other day that the NHL had ranked incomning college players and not one of the Cornell group made the top 50. I understand we are doing well (although we don't score much) but it is a little disconcerting. Thoughts?

hypotenuse
I noticed on the Inside College Hockey site the other day that the NHL had ranked incomning college players and not one of the Cornell group made the top 50. I understand we are doing well (although we don't score much) but it is a little disconcerting. Thoughts?

My thoughts are:

1) Winning is winning, and I'm enjoying that without worrying about anyone's draft status.

2) Having said that, I'd *rather* win with a group of hard-working, lunch-pail guys who play their roles and execute a complete team game as opposed to a bunch of flashy, possibly selfish prima donnas who will be gone after one or two seasons. Just much more satisfying to me, but that's a personal preference that not everyone will agree with. (sorry for the preposition - too much work to fix)

3) See #1.

Robb
I'd *rather* win with a group of hard-working, lunch-pail guys who play their roles and execute a complete team game as opposed to a bunch of flashy, possibly selfish prima donnas who will be gone after one or two seasons.

I agree. But I'd rather win with some flashy prima donnas who will be gone after one or two seasons than lose with a group of hard-working, lunch-pail guys. Winning is more likely of you have some high end talent to go with your work ethic. Maybe the ideal would be to have most of your team be late draft picks. Indicator of talent but less likely to leave early.

I don't have any substantive comment about this year's ranking though.

Two defensemen in our 2009 class are already drafted (Nick D'Agostino and Braden Birch), both are playing superbly in the OJHL and look to be solid D1 material. Obviously they can't be drafted again

The forward class is a bit of an unknown, Moulson and Mihalek have had so-so years in the BCHL. Erik Axell is a big guy and may take a while to adjust to the college game. Esposito is a scorer, but he's small, so I'm not stunned he was passed over. I think he's young enough that he could be drafted in his second year of eligibility, his freshman year. Rodger Craig (2010) was ranked in the CSB's preliminary rankings, so I wouldn't be stunned if he were picked come draft day.

A lot of our high profile recruits aren't yet eligible for the draft, they will be in 2010 or beyond. I think we'll see Mathieu Brisson, Andy Iles, and Ben Thomson all drafted pretty high up.

Thats whats so great about shafers style of game,especially in the Ivy's cause it is hard to get the top end talent and with his style you really dont need it.

KeithK
I agree. But I'd rather win with some flashy prima donnas who will be gone after one or two seasons than lose with a group of hard-working, lunch-pail guys.

But of course - my second point was just about which style of winning is preferable. Losing doesn't even enter the picture.

pfibiger
Two defensemen in our 2009 class are already drafted (Nick D'Agostino and Braden Birch), both are playing superbly in the OJHL and look to be solid D1 material. Obviously they can't be drafted again

The forward class is a bit of an unknown, Moulson and Mihalek have had so-so years in the BCHL. Erik Axell is a big guy and may take a while to adjust to the college game. Esposito is a scorer, but he's small, so I'm not stunned he was passed over. I think he's young enough that he could be drafted in his second year of eligibility, his freshman year. Rodger Craig (2010) was ranked in the CSB's preliminary rankings, so I wouldn't be stunned if he were picked come draft day.

A lot of our high profile recruits aren't yet eligible for the draft, they will be in 2010 or beyond. I think we'll see Mathieu Brisson, Andy Iles, and Ben Thomson all drafted pretty high up.

Only Rodger Craig and Kevin Cole are NHL-draft-eligible for the first time in 2009. Esposito was born in October 1991, so he'll have to wait until 2010.

I have been extraordinarily pleased with the quality of recruits that committed to Cornell this fall. Concededly, some recruits who commit young will not develop as well as we hope or expect; that's the disadvantage to recruiting 15 and 16 year olds. Nevertheless, Cornell is bringing in more than enough talent to stay strong over the long haul.

hypotenuse
I noticed on the Inside College Hockey site the other day that the NHL had ranked incomning college players and not one of the Cornell group made the top 50. I understand we are doing well (although we don't score much) but it is a little disconcerting. Thoughts?

Are you referring to the 2008 recruits, it.e., this year's freshmen? I don't think that they have ranked the recruis for next fall yet.

ursusminor

hypotenuse
I noticed on the Inside College Hockey site the other day that the NHL had ranked incomning college players and not one of the Cornell group made the top 50. I understand we are doing well (although we don't score much) but it is a little disconcerting. Thoughts?

Are you referring to the 2008 recruits, it.e., this year's freshmen? I don't think that they have ranked the recruis for next fall yet.

I think he's just talking about INCH reposting the CSB's list of college and college-bound players on the mid-term rankings.

Robb

KeithK
I agree. But I'd rather win with some flashy prima donnas who will be gone after one or two seasons than lose with a group of hard-working, lunch-pail guys.

But of course - my second point was just about which style of winning is preferable. Losing doesn't even enter the picture.

Sure, but you can hardly presuppose winning.

Edit: I mean, sure, in discussions of how you'd rather win you certainly can, but in deciding which players to recruit of course you can't.

It's not a terrible thing to have a Nieuwendyk every twenty years or so to keep the Cornell name in the news at the NHL level.

What I would dearly love to have, though, is another Dryden. Given the amazing numbers put up by Cornell goalies over nearly the last decade, a guy going on and becoming a Vezina contender might assure that Cornell gets the top college-bound goaltending prospect in perpetuity.

Trotsky
It's not a terrible thing to have a Nieuwendyk every twenty years or so to keep the Cornell name in the news at the NHL level.

What I would dearly love to have, though, is another Dryden. Given the amazing numbers put up by Cornell goalies over nearly the last decade, a guy going on and becoming a Vezina contender might assure that Cornell gets the top college-bound goaltending prospect in perpetuity.

Agreed, but do you think our goalies (now and in the future) will look at what has happened to McKee and Lenny (and even JMP) and realize that they might be better off staying in school for four years, rather than leaving after 2-3 years?

From a hockey fan's perspective (and never playing or wanting to play the position), it seems like goalie is a position where it takes longer to reach "maturity" and that "maturity" comes from spending a lot of time working on positioning and seeing a lot of rubber in all sorts of situations (both in games and through practice time). Granted games and practice time is limited in the college game, but depending on the situation, the quality of that practice time might be better at a school known for developing goalies.

It just seems to me that raw talent alone won't carry a goalie as far as say a forward just seems to put every puck in the back of the net.

I guess I will always wonder if Lenny would have done better in the NHL if he hadn't left early (and if he wasn't in Phoenix).

Rita
Agreed, but do you think our goalies (now and in the future) will look at what has happened to McKee and Lenny (and even JMP) and realize that they might be better off staying in school for four years, rather than leaving after 2-3 years?

I'm not sure that McKee and LeNeveu clearly show that a goalie prospect should stay in school. Reaching the NHL as a goaltender is very difficult. An extra year in college might not be a difference maker in this regard. On the other hand, both McKee and LeNeveu left when their stock was highest, coming off of stellar college seasons. A rational anaysis might say that since the likelihood of making it at the top level is so low it's best financially to leave when your college value is highest.

(Then again, I can't remember what the NHL rules about rookie contracts are so I may be completely wrong about the financial analysis.)

As a Cornell fan I certainly hope that Rita is right and future players decide that staying in school for four yearsis the right thing to do.

We (Clarkson) have 8 draft picks and 3 wins......Wanna know my thoughts?

Drew
We (Clarkson) have 8 draft picks and 3 wins......Wanna know my thoughts?

Harvard must have a few, too. [But don't count 'em out till March 21.]

Rita

Trotsky
It's not a terrible thing to have a Nieuwendyk every twenty years or so to keep the Cornell name in the news at the NHL level.

What I would dearly love to have, though, is another Dryden. Given the amazing numbers put up by Cornell goalies over nearly the last decade, a guy going on and becoming a Vezina contender might assure that Cornell gets the top college-bound goaltending prospect in perpetuity.

Agreed, but do you think our goalies (now and in the future) will look at what has happened to McKee and Lenny (and even JMP) and realize that they might be better off staying in school for four years, rather than leaving after 2-3 years?

Keith's description of a goaltender's potential path to the NHL aside, let's look at it this way:

McKee and LeNeveu - left school early and now floating around the minor leagues.
Dryden - stayed all four years, had an outstanding NHL career, became part of the Leafs' upper management, got elected to Canadian parliament, and is at times erroneously credited with the perfect '69-'70 season.

Kids, stay in school!

My brother watched Taft (earlier ranked #1 New England prep) play Salisbury Prep to a 1-1 tie couple of days ago Andy Iles, in net impressed him as a very good goalie prospect for Cornell! And as a defenseman and hockey player (D-III) for 40+ years and some coachng in HS he has an experienced eye for this.

Will

Rita

Trotsky
It's not a terrible thing to have a Nieuwendyk every twenty years or so to keep the Cornell name in the news at the NHL level.

What I would dearly love to have, though, is another Dryden. Given the amazing numbers put up by Cornell goalies over nearly the last decade, a guy going on and becoming a Vezina contender might assure that Cornell gets the top college-bound goaltending prospect in perpetuity.

Agreed, but do you think our goalies (now and in the future) will look at what has happened to McKee and Lenny (and even JMP) and realize that they might be better off staying in school for four years, rather than leaving after 2-3 years?

Keith's description of a goaltender's potential path to the NHL aside, let's look at it this way:

McKee and LeNeveu - left school early and now floating around the minor leagues.
Dryden - stayed all four years, had an outstanding NHL career, became part of the Leafs' upper management, got elected to Canadian parliament, and is at times erroneously credited with the perfect '69-'70 season.

Kids, stay in school!

Maybe even better than Dryden are the examples of Darren Eliot and Brian Hayward. Both were good goalies when coming to CU. Both stayed 4 years and had good NHL careers. Certainly a different time, but both were more successful than our recent jumps.

Jim Hyla

Will

Rita

Trotsky
It's not a terrible thing to have a Nieuwendyk every twenty years or so to keep the Cornell name in the news at the NHL level.

What I would dearly love to have, though, is another Dryden. Given the amazing numbers put up by Cornell goalies over nearly the last decade, a guy going on and becoming a Vezina contender might assure that Cornell gets the top college-bound goaltending prospect in perpetuity.

Agreed, but do you think our goalies (now and in the future) will look at what has happened to McKee and Lenny (and even JMP) and realize that they might be better off staying in school for four years, rather than leaving after 2-3 years?

Keith's description of a goaltender's potential path to the NHL aside, let's look at it this way:

McKee and LeNeveu - left school early and now floating around the minor leagues.
Dryden - stayed all four years, had an outstanding NHL career, became part of the Leafs' upper management, got elected to Canadian parliament, and is at times erroneously credited with the perfect '69-'70 season.

Kids, stay in school!

Maybe even better than Dryden are the examples of Darren Eliot and Brian Hayward. Both were good goalies when coming to CU. Both stayed 4 years and had good NHL careers. Certainly a different time, but both were more successful than our recent jumps.

I admit that I don't know a lot about the particulars of coaching, much less teaching, hockey. At the same time, goaltender would seem to be the position least likely to benefit from seasoning at the college level - and to some degree, particularly at Cornell.

AFAIK, there are no goaltending specialists or former goalies on the coaching staff and because the Cornell style is focused on defense, the goalie doesn't get the trial-by-fire that he might in a more wide-open system.

LeNeveu was a great goalie but he seemed to RARELY see 20 shots a game. McKee was a less clearly great goalie (to me) but he might have had an even better defense in front of him. When they reached the next level it was probably shocking to be in the thick of the game for 60 minutes.

Re Dryden- the famous picture is of him leaning on his stick bored to tears while Cornell was at the other end. I just missed Dryden, but it is easy to conclude that with Cornell typically up by a bunch of goals early on he was not really tested on a day in, day out basis. (I've always wondered about someone named George Swan, who seemed to share freshman goaltending duties with Dryden and had a lower goals against average.)

ugarte

Jim Hyla

Will

Rita

Trotsky
It's not a terrible thing to have a Nieuwendyk every twenty years or so to keep the Cornell name in the news at the NHL level.

What I would dearly love to have, though, is another Dryden. Given the amazing numbers put up by Cornell goalies over nearly the last decade, a guy going on and becoming a Vezina contender might assure that Cornell gets the top college-bound goaltending prospect in perpetuity.

Agreed, but do you think our goalies (now and in the future) will look at what has happened to McKee and Lenny (and even JMP) and realize that they might be better off staying in school for four years, rather than leaving after 2-3 years?

Keith's description of a goaltender's potential path to the NHL aside, let's look at it this way:

McKee and LeNeveu - left school early and now floating around the minor leagues.
Dryden - stayed all four years, had an outstanding NHL career, became part of the Leafs' upper management, got elected to Canadian parliament, and is at times erroneously credited with the perfect '69-'70 season.

Kids, stay in school!

Maybe even better than Dryden are the examples of Darren Eliot and Brian Hayward. Both were good goalies when coming to CU. Both stayed 4 years and had good NHL careers. Certainly a different time, but both were more successful than our recent jumps.

I admit that I don't know a lot about the particulars of coaching, much less teaching, hockey. At the same time, goaltender would seem to be the position least likely to benefit from seasoning at the college level - and to some degree, particularly at Cornell.

AFAIK, there are no goaltending specialists or former goalies on the coaching staff and because the Cornell style is focused on defense, the goalie doesn't get the trial-by-fire that he might in a more wide-open system.

LeNeveu was a great goalie but he seemed to RARELY see 20 shots a game. McKee was a less clearly great goalie (to me) but he might have had an even better defense in front of him. When they reached the next level it was probably shocking to be in the thick of the game for 60 minutes.

McKee and Lenny also had a significant economic side of the decision to jump to the next level. I for one can't fault either if they saw greater utility in 7-figure contracts than they did in 2 additional years in the ECAC to hone their skills for possible greater success at the professional level.

ugarte
AFAIK, there are no goaltending specialists or former goalies on the coaching staff and because the Cornell style is focused on defense, the goalie doesn't get the trial-by-fire that he might in a more wide-open system.

That was going to be precisely my point. This year Ian Burt is the volunteer assistant coach, which is more than the goalies have had for years. No offense to Ian, but it's still hardly a golden carrot to dangle at prospective goalies. The system will certainly give you good numbers and get you noticed, but until Cornell really makes a serious effort with goalie coaching, I don't think there's any reason for them to stay. McKee was a reaction goalie who completely lacked the fundamentals to play pro hockey. He basically had to re-learn to play when he got there and the results speak for themselves. Lenny was fundamentally excellent coming in, but I don't think either one would have necessarily gotten better if they played here for 10 years. The best thing for them probably was to go to the minors and get proper instruction. It's kind of scary to think what someone like Lenny, with the team he had in front of him, could have done with a good coach. So while the reputation still lands Cornell the good recruits, they're really just being squandered.

Re: Clarkson with 8 draft picks

Drew,

Actually I would love to know your thoughts. I am quite puzzled by Clarkson's performance this year.

--Steve

How typical is it for college teams to have dedicated goalie coaches, either volunteer or paid assistants? Is the situation different in Juniors? I don't really have any idea here, so I'm not being argumentative.

KeithK
How typical is it for college teams to have dedicated goalie coaches, either volunteer or paid assistants? Is the situation different in Juniors? I don't really have any idea here, so I'm not being argumentative.

To add onto Keith's question, how about in the ECHL/AHL?

I think it was on last nights Ducks-Redwings game Brian Haywood mentioned JS Giguere's (sp?) goalie coach was in town for a week or so. I think the Sharks Nabokov also has goalie coach that only visits him a couple of times during the season.

At least with these two examples, it doesn't seem like a of goalie development goes on at the NHL level; more like "tweaking and adjustments". So unless a young goalie ends up in an organization with a good dedicated goalie coach, their development still might be hampered.

I do not have schedules in front of me, but how more practice time do players have in JRs vs. more time riding on buses due to the increased number of games. I think in the ECHL most games are scheduled Friday - Sunday, so conceivably, they can get some quality practice time in during the week.

Of course predicting a college goalie's likelihood of success in the pros is like that of a college QB.. very much dependent on the organization, coaching staff and supporting players.

I think those are probably personal goalie coaches. I'm pretty sure every NHL team has a full-time goalie coach. There's plenty of coaching at the NHL level.

CowbellGuy
I think those are probably personal goalie coaches. I'm pretty sure every NHL team has a full-time goalie coach. There's plenty of coaching at the NHL level.

And even the other goalie on the team is likely to have more experience than Ian Burt (no offense to Mr. Burt).

And even if every AHL team doesn't have a full-time goalie coach, I'm sure that the NHL goalie coach works with the players in the team's pipeline, at least during training camp.

ugarte

CowbellGuy

And even if every AHL team doesn't have a full-time goalie coach, I'm sure that the NHL goalie coach works with the players in the team's pipeline, at least during training camp.

This is the case for the Rangers, where their goalie coach works with all of the NHL and AHL goaltenders throughout the season. I assume thats the case for most organizations, especially ones where their AHL and NHL teams are in close proximity.

Jacob '06
This is the case for the Rangers, where their goalie coach works with all of the NHL and AHL goaltenders throughout the season. I assume thats the case for most organizations, especially ones where their AHL and NHL teams are in close proximity.

And his brother works for the Ducks

Jacob '06

ugarte

CowbellGuy

And even if every AHL team doesn't have a full-time goalie coach, I'm sure that the NHL goalie coach works with the players in the team's pipeline, at least during training camp.

This is the case for the Rangers, where their goalie coach works with all of the NHL and AHL goaltenders throughout the season. I assume thats the case for most organizations, especially ones where their AHL and NHL teams are in close proximity.

I'd be shocked if the Flyers' goalie coach, Reggie Lemelin, didn't work with the Phantoms goalies.

Steve, I am heading to Yale tomorrow to see for myself. Will let you know my thoughts.

as someone who played goalie at deerfield (prep school), very few hockey coaches know anything about goaltending and many still maintain the stupid idea that more pucks = better goaltending. i remember mike richter served as a volunteer goalie coach with yale after he retired and still might be there. richter seems more of an exception than the rule though. i'm sure colleges can better attract volunteer goalie coaches, but if one of no one on the staff played goalie then it's up to the goalies to find someone to work with them, either at school or during the offseason.

juniors are similar. roberto luongo came out of the qmjhl (the top goalie league in juniors) as the #4 overall pick because, in his opinion, he faced a lot of shots. he was inconsistent early in his career because he developed bad habits from facing so many shots and the islanders and panthers goalie coaches needed to break his habits. brreaking down and rebuilding goalies happens a lot in the professional ranks, aka maturity. basically, it boils down to the fact that if you have a great goalie coach nearby you're really lucky. if not, it's on the goalies themselves to police themselves.

as for nabokov, if he ever needs any personal help he has the greatest goalie ever to give him advice.