Dec 8 Polls: Cornell is in the top 10

Cornell cracks the top 10 in all three polls with BC and CC dropping 5 and 4 spots, respectively.

USCHO/CSTV Poll #10 [www.uscho.com]

USA Today/AHM Poll #9 [www.uscho.com]

INCH Power Rankings #10 [insidecollegehockey.com]

Omie
INCH Power Rankings #10 [insidecollegehockey.com]

When did UAF become "Alaska"?

ugarte
When did UAF become "Alaska"?

Two seasons ago.

Not clear to me why a team that was beaten by Cornell and also lost to Mercyhurst (huh?) is ranked five places ahead of a Cornell team that's lost only to North Dakota.

Al DeFlorio
Not clear to me why a team that was beaten by Cornell and also lost to Mercyhurst (huh?) is ranked five places ahead of a Cornell team that's lost only to North Dakota.

They do have a real marquee win in having beaten Northeastern, but other than that, they are still riding their preseason hype.

imafrshmn

Al DeFlorio
Not clear to me why a team that was beaten by Cornell and also lost to Mercyhurst (huh?) is ranked five places ahead of a Cornell team that's lost only to North Dakota.

They do have a real marquee win in having beaten Northeastern, but other than that, they are still riding their preseason hype.

Princeton is ranked ahead of Northeastern, so our "marquee win" over Princeton--at their rink--should be better than their win over Northeastern.

Al DeFlorio

imafrshmn

Al DeFlorio
Not clear to me why a team that was beaten by Cornell and also lost to Mercyhurst (huh?) is ranked five places ahead of a Cornell team that's lost only to North Dakota.

They do have a real marquee win in having beaten Northeastern, but other than that, they are still riding their preseason hype.

Princeton is ranked ahead of Northeastern, so our "marquee win" over Princeton--at their rink--should be better than their win over Northeastern.

Al, I'm surprised you give it more than about five seconds' worth of thought. It's a poll. People are going to vote how they're going to vote, and no amount of analysis is going to make the poll mean any more than it does, which is zero. Is it nice to get the respect on a national level? Sure, but I think if you spend any time at all on sweating the difference between #5 and #10, and which one is which, and who beat who, it's already too much time spent on it. My short answer would be "strength of schedule," but even that short answer is more time than it deserves.

If this were the BCS, where poll rankings might actually have an effect on our playoff seeding, I'd be concerned. But it isn't, so I'm not.

Let's win the games.

Yeah, but who would win if a joint team from Cornell and Princeton played Ditka?

Al DeFlorio
Not clear to me why a team that was beaten by Cornell and also lost to Mercyhurst (huh?) is ranked five places ahead of a Cornell team that's lost only to North Dakota.

I'd almost rather Cornell stay under-ranked (if indeed they are). Keeps them under the radar, keeps expectations lower... at least in the minds of fans of other teams.

Beeeej

Al DeFlorio

imafrshmn

Al DeFlorio
Not clear to me why a team that was beaten by Cornell and also lost to Mercyhurst (huh?) is ranked five places ahead of a Cornell team that's lost only to North Dakota.

They do have a real marquee win in having beaten Northeastern, but other than that, they are still riding their preseason hype.

Princeton is ranked ahead of Northeastern, so our "marquee win" over Princeton--at their rink--should be better than their win over Northeastern.

Al, I'm surprised you give it more than about five seconds' worth of thought. It's a poll. People are going to vote how they're going to vote, and no amount of analysis is going to make the poll mean any more than it does, which is zero. Is it nice to get the respect on a national level? Sure, but I think if you spend any time at all on sweating the difference between #5 and #10, and which one is which, and who beat who, it's already too much time spent on it. My short answer would be "strength of schedule," but even that short answer is more time than it deserves.

If this were the BCS, where poll rankings might actually have an effect on our playoff seeding, I'd be concerned. But it isn't, so I'm not.

Let's win the games.

Beeeej, it doesn't bother me at all. It just puzzles me, and that's what I wrote. If it were Minnesota or some other consistently highly-ranked team, it would go unnoticed. But Princeton? And, as I see it, their schedule to date is no stronger than Cornell's.

Frankly, you've spent too much time analyzing my off-the-cuff comment.

Al DeFlorio

Beeeej

Al DeFlorio

imafrshmn

Al DeFlorio
Not clear to me why a team that was beaten by Cornell and also lost to Mercyhurst (huh?) is ranked five places ahead of a Cornell team that's lost only to North Dakota.

They do have a real marquee win in having beaten Northeastern, but other than that, they are still riding their preseason hype.

Princeton is ranked ahead of Northeastern, so our "marquee win" over Princeton--at their rink--should be better than their win over Northeastern.

Al, I'm surprised you give it more than about five seconds' worth of thought. It's a poll. People are going to vote how they're going to vote, and no amount of analysis is going to make the poll mean any more than it does, which is zero. Is it nice to get the respect on a national level? Sure, but I think if you spend any time at all on sweating the difference between #5 and #10, and which one is which, and who beat who, it's already too much time spent on it. My short answer would be "strength of schedule," but even that short answer is more time than it deserves.

If this were the BCS, where poll rankings might actually have an effect on our playoff seeding, I'd be concerned. But it isn't, so I'm not.

Let's win the games.

Beeeej, it doesn't bother me at all. It just puzzles me, and that's what I wrote. If it were Minnesota or some other consistently highly-ranked team, it would go unnoticed. But Princeton? And, as I see it, their schedule to date is no stronger than Cornell's.

Frankly, you've spent too much time analyzing my off-the-cuff comment.

Who said it bothered you?

You didn't just comment, you also debated it. I pointed out that there wasn't much to be gained by it, then I was done. Have a lovely weekend!

Al DeFlorio

imafrshmn

Al DeFlorio
Not clear to me why a team that was beaten by Cornell and also lost to Mercyhurst (huh?) is ranked five places ahead of a Cornell team that's lost only to North Dakota.

They do have a real marquee win in having beaten Northeastern, but other than that, they are still riding their preseason hype.

Princeton is ranked ahead of Northeastern, so our "marquee win" over Princeton--at their rink--should be better than their win over Northeastern.

It's just poll inertia. Princeton started the season as the highest ranked ECAC team so they will probably stay there until there is conclusive evidence to the contrary (whether evidence for the Tigers dropping or someone else to rise).

If we're going to really think about "marquee wins" I'd guess that pollsters give less weight to conference games in that category. So beating Northeastern has more of a bonus effect than beating conference rival Princeton.

Al DeFlorio

imafrshmn

Al DeFlorio
Not clear to me why a team that was beaten by Cornell and also lost to Mercyhurst (huh?) is ranked five places ahead of a Cornell team that's lost only to North Dakota.

They do have a real marquee win in having beaten Northeastern, but other than that, they are still riding their preseason hype.

Princeton is ranked ahead of Northeastern, so our "marquee win" over Princeton--at their rink--should be better than their win over Northeastern.

But then if that causes us to be ranked ahead of Princeton, our marquee win wouldn't mean as much, so we would then be ranked lower than them, so then our marquee win would mean more, so then we would be ranked above them, but then our marquee win wouldn't mean as much, so then we would be ranked lower than them, so then our marquee win would mean more, so then we would be ranked above them, ..................

I feel like I'm in Bizzaro World. Princeton with pre-season hype and poll inertia. A win against Northeastern being described as "marquee". If Harvard wins the Bean Pot, then I'll know I've crossed over into a parallel universe.

JasonN95
If Harvard wins the Bean Pot, then I'll know I've crossed over into a parallel universe.

Now that's crazy talk.

Eh. By the end of the year, the polls pretty much end up looking like the Pairwise anyway. Speaking of which... with SLU's win over UVM and NoDak coming on strong, we flipped a few comparisons last night and now sit at #3 in PWR (#4 in KRACH).

Our next 5 games (all non-conference) are critical to maintain that lofty perch, though, especially SCSU, UMass, and Maine (should we play them). Umass and Maine will be beaten like rented mules by the HEA powers going down the stretch, so we need to win both of those games for Common Opponent and possibly TUC purposes. I have a bit more confidence that SCSU will do a *little* better in-conference, but the same logic applies.

Beeeej

Al DeFlorio

imafrshmn

Al DeFlorio
Not clear to me why a team that was beaten by Cornell and also lost to Mercyhurst (huh?) is ranked five places ahead of a Cornell team that's lost only to North Dakota.

They do have a real marquee win in having beaten Northeastern, but other than that, they are still riding their preseason hype.

Princeton is ranked ahead of Northeastern, so our "marquee win" over Princeton--at their rink--should be better than their win over Northeastern.

Al, I'm surprised you give it more than about five seconds' worth of thought. It's a poll. People are going to vote how they're going to vote, and no amount of analysis is going to make the poll mean any more than it does, which is zero. Is it nice to get the respect on a national level? Sure, but I think if you spend any time at all on sweating the difference between #5 and #10, and which one is which, and who beat who, it's already too much time spent on it. My short answer would be "strength of schedule," but even that short answer is more time than it deserves.

If this were the BCS, where poll rankings might actually have an effect on our playoff seeding, I'd be concerned. But it isn't, so I'm not.

Let's win the games.

I think the scores by which the two teams have won influence the polls. Given its style, this disadvantages Cornell. IMHO, head-to-head is more meaningful.

We are not alone in this. In football, Mack Brown routinely clears his bench during the 4Q when Texas is winning by a substantial margin. Consequently, his teams rarely score over 60 points against weaker opponents. Look where this got UT compared to Oklahoma!

Swampy
I think the scores by which the two teams have won influence the polls. Given its style, this disadvantages Cornell. IMHO, head-to-head is more meaningful.

Head to head is one game! It is a good tool for tiebreaker purposes but, with an insignificant sample size, if Princeton is routinely winning against common opponents by a larger margin than we are, that seems like a good reason to vote Princeton higher, even with the Mercyhurst loss.

We are not alone in this. In football, Mack Brown routinely clears his bench during the 4Q when Texas is winning by a substantial margin. Consequently, his teams rarely score over 60 points against weaker opponents. Look where this got UT compared to Oklahoma!

This is a bad analogy on so many levels. You can compare Princeton to Oklahoma or Cornell to Texas - and Oklahoma hasn't really run up the score against weak teams.

Princeton has basically played the same teams that we have. They aren't "piling it on" and we are hardly pulling our starters for the third period. From what I've read, we are winning one-goal games because - while Scrivens is unquestionably playing well, he also apparently brings his own a net with an extra-wide post.

Oklahoma is hardly running up the score on weak opponents. OU has scored 58 or more in their last 6 games. Missouri, Texas Tech and Oklahoma State are all Top 25 teams and the Sooners shut the offense down before the 4th quarter - or earlier - against Texas A&M, Nebraska and K-State after piling up huge early leads.

ugarte
From what I've read, we are winning one-goal games because - while Scrivens is unquestionably playing well, he also apparently brings his own a net with an extra-wide post.

I've only seen a couple games on-line this year, so I'm no expert, but this sounds like crazy talk to me. Even with the NoDak game, he's #1 in the country in both GAA and Save %, and has one loss on the season.

Discount the first NoDak game when the wheels fell off for everyone, and his line is 97.0% and 0.765 GAA with 3 shutouts in 9 games. Wow.

If he brings his own net (i.e. implying that he's just lucky) well, then, I'd love to see the numbers that a "competent" goaltender would be putting up.

Robb

ugarte
From what I've read, we are winning one-goal games because - while Scrivens is unquestionably playing well, he also apparently brings his own a net with an extra-wide post.

I've only seen a couple games on-line this year, so I'm no expert, but this sounds like crazy talk to me. Even with the NoDak game, he's #1 in the country in both GAA and Save %, and has one loss on the season.

Discount the first NoDak game when the wheels fell off for everyone, and his line is 97.0% and 0.765 GAA with 3 shutouts in 9 games. Wow.

If he brings his own net (i.e. implying that he's just lucky) well, then, I'd love to see the numbers that a "competent" goaltender would be putting up.

It's the system!!

Scrivens is a great first save goaltender,the rebounds are being cleared out.

Robb
Discount the first NoDak game when the wheels fell off for everyone, and his line is 97.0% and 0.765 GAA with 3 shutouts in 9 games. Wow.

If he brings his own net (i.e. implying that he's just lucky) well, then, I'd love to see the numbers that a "competent" goaltender would be putting up.

I didn't mean to imply that he is just lucky. His excellent numbers obviously don't bear that out. (Edit: HEY! I even said "he is unquestionably playing well"!)

What I am saying is this: I have seen zero minutes of hockey this year and listened to very little. My life has taken a turn and I the only time I have for Cornell hockey is when I am at work. What I have done is read the game threads and the postgame threads. Cornell has played most of the season on the razor's edge. In 9 games we've won 4 games by one goal and tied twice. Every game seems to have at least one shot that hit the post or a puck that got behind Scrivens and was cleared. After each game the sentiment seems to be "whew" not "outstanding!", as it used to be with Lenny and McKee. He appears to those reporting contemporaneously to be a combination of lucky and good.

I expect that he will remain very good through the year but his luck will probably run out and those pucks will start hitting the inside of the post.

Depends... Does Ditka get skates?

ganderson
Depends... Does Ditka get skates?

Does it matter?

ugarte

Swampy
I think the scores by which the two teams have won influence the polls. Given its style, this disadvantages Cornell. IMHO, head-to-head is more meaningful.

Head to head is one game! It is a good tool for tiebreaker purposes but, with an insignificant sample size, if Princeton is routinely winning against common opponents by a larger margin than we are, that seems like a good reason to vote Princeton higher, even with the Mercyhurst loss.

We are not alone in this. In football, Mack Brown routinely clears his bench during the 4Q when Texas is winning by a substantial margin. Consequently, his teams rarely score over 60 points against weaker opponents. Look where this got UT compared to Oklahoma!

This is a bad analogy on so many levels. You can compare Princeton to Oklahoma or Cornell to Texas - and Oklahoma hasn't really run up the score against weak teams.

Princeton has basically played the same teams that we have. They aren't "piling it on" and we are hardly pulling our starters for the third period. From what I've read, we are winning one-goal games because - while Scrivens is unquestionably playing well, he also apparently brings his own a net with an extra-wide post.

Oklahoma is hardly running up the score on weak opponents. OU has scored 58 or more in their last 6 games. Missouri, Texas Tech and Oklahoma State are all Top 25 teams and the Sooners shut the offense down before the 4th quarter - or earlier - against Texas A&M, Nebraska and K-State after piling up huge early leads.

My point is that Cornell plays a tighter-checking game, and this leads to lower scores (and score differentials) even if Cornell dominates. On the other hand, even a sample of twelve games (Princeton) or ten (Cornell) is not much to go by. It's not much more impressive that P beat Colgate, whom C tied, 2-1 in OT or Quinnipiac 2-1 in regulation. The more recent win over Q, 4-1, is more impressive. However, all 3 P wins were at home, but the C's tie with Q was away. But then the Cornell-Q tie was a sample of 1 to begin with.

Overall, C appears to have played a tougher schedule, w/ 2 away games at ND and one apiece against Dartmouth and Harvard. D & H are currently tied for 3rd place in the ECAC, even though H has been sucking more than usual outside the league. Nonetheless, both D and H have much higher PWR, Kratch, etc. than Union or RPI, the two ECAC teams P played instead. So, while I agree that one game is too small a sample to conclude something about the two teams, these other considerations lead me to say it should have more weight.

Regarding Texas vs Oklahoma, I used a poor choice of words by saying "weaker" opponents. I should have said when it's far ahead, although being far ahead late in the game does make the opponent weaker, doesn't it? After the Oklahoma game, UT had a relatively close game w/ Oklahoma State before losing to Texas Tech. Oklahoma beat each one handily. If you watched any part of the Big 12 Championship, you know the commentators wet their pants over Oklahoma scoring over 60 points in 5 straight games. I don't doubt that Oklahoma may be better than UT, but given that the latter won their match up, Oklahoma's high scoring surely helped them win the polls.

We stayed at #10 in this week's USCHO poll. USA Today isn't out yet.

[www.uscho.com]

ebilmes
We stayed at #10 in this week's USCHO poll. USA Today isn't out yet.

[www.uscho.com]

I guess the guys did well enough at "Skate with the Big Red" to maintain their top-ten status. Whew!

ebilmes
We stayed at #10 in this week's USCHO poll. USA Today isn't out yet.

[www.uscho.com]

Red hot NoDak enters the top 20.

ebilmes
We stayed at #10 in this week's USCHO poll. USA Today isn't out yet.

[www.uscho.com]

And crept up just behind Princeton in the USA Today poll: [www.uscho.com]